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Archive of:   sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by:  webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 17:52:05
============================================================

Article 23353
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 08:36:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Altitude above sea level
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Have a friend with GPS stop by. Dad brought one at Christmas, and I 
learned our house is exactly 1000' above sea level.

-- 
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23354
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:40:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Nintendo GameCube Question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Filksinger:  Have you had any luck locating the right sized memory
cartridge?  Hopefully, these memory cards have gone down in price
these past few years like most other forms of memory have.
   On an unrelated subject: have you read this article?

http://www.lavasoftnews.com/theeye/i15/a1.html

  It is from one of the founding fathers of Anti-SpyWare software.

Ed J

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 14:05:12 -0800, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:

>I need to get at least one memory cartridge for my kids for their new
>Christmas present, and I need some information. I can't afford to buy more
>than the minimum I think will allow them to save games and not fight over
>space. Does anybody know how many blocks of GameCube memory card are needed
>to store a game of Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask?


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23355
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 11:43:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Altitude above sea level
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Eli:   Any idea what degree of accuracy these GPS units exhibit?
  I guess that you could check altitude against a US Geodetic Survey
topographical map.

Ed

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 08:36:49 -0500, Eli Hestermann
<ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:

>Have a friend with GPS stop by. Dad brought one at Christmas, and I 
>learned our house is exactly 1000' above sea level.


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23356
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:44:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Altitude above sea level
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

No clue, Ed.

Ed Johnson wrote:

>Eli:   Any idea what degree of accuracy these GPS units exhibit?
>  I guess that you could check altitude against a US Geodetic Survey
>topographical map.
>
>Ed
>
>On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 08:36:49 -0500, Eli Hestermann
><ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Have a friend with GPS stop by. Dad brought one at Christmas, and I 
>>learned our house is exactly 1000' above sea level.
>>    
>>
-- 

Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23357
From: JT 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 20:56:49 -0500
Subject: HF archive site updated
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

SFF Net members can always search the SFF Net archives for any SFF Net
newsgroup--a benefit of your individual membership.

However, I thought it would be interesting to maintain the HF's posts
in another location, too.  I have updated the archive site with 2003's
posts.  What is a little sad is that the zip file keeps getting
smaller for each year....

My continued thanks to Karen & Robert Cottrell for hosting the
archives.  I could just as well do it myself now on my personal site,
but they were gracious to offer a long time ago when disk space was at
more of a premium.  They are truly patrons as well!

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23358
From: JT 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:01:06 -0500
Subject: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

C'mon, guys, are things that bad that we can't even talk about a major
space initiative?  At least on paper, it's something.

Those of you nuts that really follow the programs (I'm thinking WJaKe
and JovBill at least ;) should have SOMETHING to say.

I read in the paper today that one of the first things to go is the
last Hubble servicing mission that was scheduled for 2006.

Couldn't this be a win-win if the government focuses on the moon, and
leaves earth orbit to private industry?  Is that possible given
current regulation and the international climate?  Harriman, where are
you, have you changed your name from Rutan yet? <eg>

JT



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23359
From: William J. Keaton" 
Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:50:39 -0500
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"JT" <JT@REM0VEsff.net> wrote in message
news:8vpj00d2952n1it5vhleb2pd392lhjrsnn@4ax.com...
> C'mon, guys, are things that bad that we can't even talk about a major
> space initiative?  At least on paper, it's something.

Yeah, well, it seems to be all on paper at this point. I've been looking it
over this week, to find what sort of specifics have been announced,

> I read in the paper today that one of the first things to go is the
> last Hubble servicing mission that was scheduled for 2006.

Which is the first disappointment. I LIKE basic science. I think it is one
of the items that NASA should be involved in, not cutting out,

> Couldn't this be a win-win if the government focuses on the moon, and
> leaves earth orbit to private industry?

I don't think so. There is not enough to do in earth orbit that will
generate enough revenue to push private industry to develop the launchers
needed to get there. Corporate research budgets have been slashed over the
last decade, if the govt. gets out of LEO, I don't know who will go back.
Maybe the Chinese?

The biggest flaw I see in Bush II's space initiative is the lack of a launch
vehicle! They plan to retire the Shuttle by 2010, retire from ISS around
that time, and have a new Lunar-capable vehicle by, what, 2014? Plus there
is no mention of a heavy-lift vehicle! Bush wants "human settlement" on the
Moon, that will take a heavy-lift vehicle, or lots of little ones.

Or does it? What does "human settlement" mean? He was pretty careful not to
say "permanent".

The good news is, this plan is not DOA the way Bush I's Space Exploration
Initiatitive ($400 billion over 30 years). The bad news is, there are far
too few specifics as to how we accomplish these goals to evaluate if it can
be done as proposed.

Yes, we didn't know how to get to the Moon with Apollo, what kind of
vehicles we need, etc. We do have that prior art to look at. BUT, the
political climate was greatly different in the `60s, where the Race to the
Moon was seen as almost a moral imperative, rather than a technical
exercise. We have seen projects cancelled because there was not the
political will to continue past certain technical problems.

Maybe we are going to flush $12 billion down a sinkhole. Maybe more. Maybe
not at all. It is too early to tell.

WJaKe



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23360
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 07:40:10 GMT
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:01:06 -0500, JT <JT@REM0VEsff.net> wrote:

>C'mon, guys, are things that bad that we can't even talk about a major
>space initiative?  At least on paper, it's something.
>
I hate being in this position, really hate it, but I don't want a Bush
space program. I don't trust the man, or his people. I think that
"human settlement" really means Military installation. That's if this
isn't just some massive smokescreen to distract the american people
from the real issues.

Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23361
From: JT 
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:16:49 -0500
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 07:40:10 GMT, fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
wrote:

>I hate being in this position, really hate it, but I don't want a Bush
>space program. I don't trust the man, or his people. I think that
>"human settlement" really means Military installation. That's if this
>isn't just some massive smokescreen to distract the american people
>from the real issues.
>
Part of me says, "so what?".  Nixon started the Shuttle, and it took
forever to kill it, not that we've thought about a proper replacement
(as WJaKe said).

If Bush gets something started, and throws enough money towards it,
then a Democrat will have to keep it up, even if the end goal changes.
It might end up being bastardized like ISS, but at least we've been
doing SOMETHING toward that end all the while.

Saw a good cartoon this week that had prisons on the moon.  The
caption was something like "I preferred Guantanamo."  TMIAHM anyone?

You know, we throw away trillions of dollars a year on things I think
are quite questionable.  If we're not going to be serious and actually
balance the budget, then you might as well develop space, too.

Sigh....

JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23362
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 11:52:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Altitude above sea level
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Eli:   I have reason to question the accuracy of GPS.  For years
now, we have been told that civilian GPS units are limited in their
degree of accuracy compared to military field units in contact with
the very same satellites.  (At least in the Lat. and Longitude
dimensions.  I don't know if the altitude is also limited.)
   That imageatlas.globexplorer site JT gave has a very detailed
location read-out.  You can center your house on the screen and then
check the read-out against survey forms (for new homeowners,i.e.).

 I am pleasantly surprised at how far we have come in the past years
with this technology.

Ed J
   

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 16:44:10 -0500, Eli Hestermann
<ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:

>No clue, Ed.
>
>Ed Johnson wrote:
>
>>Eli:   Any idea what degree of accuracy these GPS units exhibit?
>>  I guess that you could check altitude against a US Geodetic Survey
>>topographical map.
>>
>>Ed
>>
>>On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 08:36:49 -0500, Eli Hestermann
>><ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:
>>
>>  
>>
>>>Have a friend with GPS stop by. Dad brought one at Christmas, and I 
>>>learned our house is exactly 1000' above sea level.
>>>    
>>>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23363
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 12:03:21 -0500
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader:  So what's wrong with letting the military budget spearhead
the colonization of the moon?  It is going to cost a lot of money to
get there again, DOD has deep pockets and should be tapped.
Heinlein said that the moon was the military high ground.  Should we
wait until the Chinese are well established in Space to have this
brought to our attention again?
WJake:   I, too think that Gov. money should be spent on developing
a new launch vehicle.  Cheap Access to Space will open up space
travel and commercial development.  If Billions are to be spent, R&D
on a cheaper, more reliable launch vehicle is where I would like to
see the gov. bucks spent.  Not on a trip to Mars.  
JovBill told us a while ago that returning to the moon would be a
lot easier and cheaper this time around.  Much of the R&D has been
done and (with the help of Lockheed modified Soviet engines) better
technology is now available.  We do not need to re-invent the wheel
to send men to the moon.  

Ed J (2 cents worth <g>)
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 07:40:10 GMT, fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net
(Fader) wrote:

>On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:01:06 -0500, JT <JT@REM0VEsff.net> wrote:
>
>>C'mon, guys, are things that bad that we can't even talk about a major
>>space initiative?  At least on paper, it's something.
>>
>I hate being in this position, really hate it, but I don't want a Bush
>space program. I don't trust the man, or his people. I think that
>"human settlement" really means Military installation. That's if this
>isn't just some massive smokescreen to distract the american people
>from the real issues.
>
>Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23364
From: Lorrita Morgan" 
Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:41:28 -0800
Subject: Re: Altitude above sea level
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"JT" <JT@REM0VEsff.net> wrote in message
news:5b6h00d11vi6nfpifs67tsinfoomvd7r8d@4ax.com...
> Try
> http://imageatlas.globexplorer.com/ImageAtlas/view.do?group=ImageAtlas
> and put in your street address.  Pretty neat.

> JT

The only problem with that is IF your street is newer than their information
you get bad data.  My older kids' sub division went in in 2001.  The map
info on GlobeXplorer was from 1996.  It placed their address a full minute
east of their real location.  If I hadn't checked it against other addresses
and a paper atlas...

-- 
+=+=+=+=+=+
`rita



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23365
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 04:27:56 GMT
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 12:03:21 -0500, Ed Johnson
<eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:

Ed & JT -

>Fader:  So what's wrong with letting the military budget spearhead
>the colonization of the moon?  It is going to cost a lot of money to
>get there again, DOD has deep pockets and should be tapped.
>Heinlein said that the moon was the military high ground.  

Which is why Harriman had to do it first, 

remember when Harriman walked into the guy's office with the other
cola company's logo on his lapel, then pointed out that this could've
been the Hammer & Sickle, & that's what it would look like from the
moon. 
Remember Tower (think that's his name) & his little coup giving him
those missles on the moon.

Do you really trust Dubya & buddies to have this ability, think about
Iraq, think about Homeland security, think about the Patriot Act. One
might also think about the reaction of other world leaders, cause I
guarentee{sp?} you that they are thinking about all of it.

>Should we wait until the Chinese are well established in Space to have this
>brought to our attention again?

No, I don't want them to be first either, particularly since they're
even worse about the things I care about. I question the timing of
this tho, & could also see really bad things happening. I seem to
remember reading a book once, where this is what started WW III.

Fader 

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23366
From: \"gunner\"" 
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 06:38:58 -0500
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

though i hope not, it may be we've become a bit cynical with all the broken
promises and bureaucratic gaming from both nasa and the elected
wafflebottoms, and the shortsighted cries of "why don't we spend that money
here on earth". as if we were filling rockets with cash and launching it
into the sun. what the "social justice" types seem to wilfully not
understand is that money stays right here and makes jobs at all levels,
right down to the guys driving the trucks hauling parts to rocket builders
and the guy pushing the broom sweeping the deck at nasa hq. with dubya
proclaiming that we're (finally!) going back, this time to stay, hopefully.
i'm hopeful but what happens when the next gang comes in in either this
year, if we get real unlucky, or in 2008 when, if hillary runs and wins, we
would be royally screwed. nasa and congress have already demonstrated that
you don't have to officially kill a programme, just keep cutting its funding
until all that's left is somebody to answer the phone.
"gunner"
----------------------------------------
"JT" <JT@REM0VEsff.net> wrote in message
news:8vpj00d2952n1it5vhleb2pd392lhjrsnn@4ax.com...
> C'mon, guys, are things that bad that we can't even talk about a major
> space initiative?  At least on paper, it's something.
>
> Those of you nuts that really follow the programs (I'm thinking WJaKe
> and JovBill at least ;) should have SOMETHING to say.
>
> I read in the paper today that one of the first things to go is the
> last Hubble servicing mission that was scheduled for 2006.
>
> Couldn't this be a win-win if the government focuses on the moon, and
> leaves earth orbit to private industry?  Is that possible given
> current regulation and the international climate?  Harriman, where are
> you, have you changed your name from Rutan yet? <eg>
>
> JT
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23367
From: \"gunner\"" 
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 06:55:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Darwins & 2036 Headlines
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

for the real darwin awards i've always liked larry niven's line, "think of
it as evolution in action". like the pics a police friend in california sent
me of a perp out there who tried to rob a tractor-trailer driver and wound
up under the drive axles with the tractor parked on his chest. if he hadn't
bred yet he ain't gonna.
"gunner"
---------------------
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:40046b9f.0@news.sff.net...
> What an odd coincidence. My parents tried to have it surgically corrected
> when I was twelve. I got it as a birth defect.
>
> Filksinger
>
>
> Kevin Patrick Crowley wrote:
> > My tongue has been surgically attached to my cheek since I was twelve.
> >
> > Kevin
> >
> > Filksinger wrote:
> >
> > > Since it was supposed to have been his own intestinal gas, I'm not
> > > sure how this would be relevant. Regardless, it was an urban legend.
> > >
> > > My problem with a lot of supposedly true stories circulating the
> > > Internet (like the phony "Stella Awards" and fake Darwins) is that,
> > > to me, they are only amusing if true. If they aren't, then, to me,
> > > they are just stupid stories.
> > >
> > > Here's a couple of sites I like, or at least I like the newsletters
> > > therefrom, because the stories _are_ true:
> > >
> > > The True Stella Awards
> > >
> > > Named for Stella Liebeck, the woman who was reported to have won
> > > $2.7 million against McDonalds for being burned by their coffee,
> > > they were a group of urban legend claims going around the Internet.
> > > These inspired Colorado journalist and humorist Randy Cassingham to
> > > create a newsletter of _true_ cases of the legal system gone amok.
> > > See http://www.stellaawards.com for examples, and to read the true
> > > (and much fairer) story of Stella Liebeck (who, right or wrong, was
> > > unfairly crapped on by the press).
> > >
> > > This is True
> > >
> > > Humorous stories collected from reputable news sources and emailed
> > > out regularly by the same Randy Cassingham. See
> > > http://www.thisistrue.com for details.
>
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23368
From: Kevin Patrick Crowley 
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 06:04:04 -0600
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Interspesed

Fader wrote:

> On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 12:03:21 -0500, Ed Johnson
> <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:
> 
> Ed & JT -
> 
> 
>>Fader:  So what's wrong with letting the military budget spearhead
>>the colonization of the moon?  It is going to cost a lot of money to
>>get there again, DOD has deep pockets and should be tapped.
>>Heinlein said that the moon was the military high ground.  
> 
> 
> Which is why Harriman had to do it first, 

How does that follow?

> 
> remember when Harriman walked into the guy's office with the other
> cola company's logo on his lapel, then pointed out that this could've
> been the Hammer & Sickle, & that's what it would look like from the
> moon.

Two seperate scenes.  Two seperate scenes.


> Remember Tower (think that's his name) & his little coup giving him
> those missles on the moon.

Remember it didn't work.

> 
> Do you really trust Dubya & buddies to have this ability, think about
> Iraq, think about Homeland security, think about the Patriot Act. One
> might also think about the reaction of other world leaders, cause I
> guarentee{sp?} you that they are thinking about all of it.


Can you do simple arithmetic?  By the time this plan come to fruition 
Bush will be out of office.  Oh that's right, the secret police are 
still coming and will be arresting you sometime *Real Soon* because you 
have had this insight.

As for other "WORLD LEADERS"  they do not exist.  We are the world 
leaders.  All others are wannabees.

> 
> 
>>Should we wait until the Chinese are well established in Space to have this
>>brought to our attention again?
> 
> 
> No, I don't want them to be first either, particularly since they're
> even worse about the things I care about. I question the timing of
> this tho, & could also see really bad things happening. I seem to
> remember reading a book once, where this is what started WW III.

Try reading a second book then.  I don't think this is what started 
WWII.  Japanese and German territorial aggressions come to mind.  Oh 
that's right, that was our fault.

Kevin

Who has never worn a tinfoil hat.



> 
> Fader 

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23369
From: Bill Dauphin 
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 21:52:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Altitude above sea level
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

The GPS unit will *tell* you what accuracy it's getting; it varies from time
to time depending on how many satellites it can "see," and, I suppose, other
factors such as atmospheric conditions and orbital geometry.

If you need a super accurate fix, I'd take readings daily over a week or two
and then average the results.

-JovBill

PS: First time I've posted since the holidays, so... Happy New Year, y'all.


On 1/17/04 4:44 PM, in article 4009a9ff.0@news.sff.net, "Eli Hestermann"
<ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:

> No clue, Ed.
> 
> Ed Johnson wrote:
> 
>> Eli:   Any idea what degree of accuracy these GPS units exhibit?
>>  I guess that you could check altitude against a US Geodetic Survey
>> topographical map.
>> 
>> Ed
>> 
>> On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 08:36:49 -0500, Eli Hestermann
>> <ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>> Have a friend with GPS stop by. Dad brought one at Christmas, and I
>>> learned our house is exactly 1000' above sea level.
>>>    
>>> 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23370
From: Bill Dauphin 
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 22:02:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Altitude above sea level
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On 1/18/04 11:52 AM, in article 2udl00117mspl2ippcpini3d0fiq32ft1g@4ax.com,
"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net> wrote:

> Eli:   I have reason to question the accuracy of GPS.  For years
> now, we have been told that civilian GPS units are limited in their
> degree of accuracy compared to military field units in contact with
> the very same satellites.

No longer the case (this was one of the subjects I had to write on for my
Masters degree Comp exam last summer). Originally the civilian signal was
intentionally degraded (this was called Selective Availability, IIRC) so
that civilian units would not deliver military precision. SA was turned off
during the Clinton administration, though... and even before then, there
were ways around it if you were clever. Bottom line is, with commercial
handheld receivers, you're actually getting whatever accuracy it tells you
you're getting.

You'd be amazed at some of the things GPS is being used for, such as precise
mapping of farm fields to optimize fertilizer placement and crop yields.
It's not just for hikers anymore!  ;^)

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23371
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 22:35:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Altitude above sea level
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JovBill:   Happy New Year back at ya! <g>
   Averaging readings over an extended time period sounds like a
good way to boost the accuracy of any given GPS reading.  We used to
get better accuracy out of USAF theodolites using the same
principle.  We took several measurements (shot 10 angles) then
averaged the results to get very near to the theoretical limit of
the instrument.
    

Ed J


On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 21:52:54 -0500, Bill Dauphin
<dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>The GPS unit will *tell* you what accuracy it's getting; it varies from time
>to time depending on how many satellites it can "see," and, I suppose, other
>factors such as atmospheric conditions and orbital geometry.
>
>If you need a super accurate fix, I'd take readings daily over a week or two
>and then average the results.
>
>-JovBill
>
>PS: First time I've posted since the holidays, so... Happy New Year, y'all.
>
>
>On 1/17/04 4:44 PM, in article 4009a9ff.0@news.sff.net, "Eli Hestermann"
><ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:
>
>> No clue, Ed.
>> 
>> Ed Johnson wrote:
>> 
>>> Eli:   Any idea what degree of accuracy these GPS units exhibit?
>>>  I guess that you could check altitude against a US Geodetic Survey
>>> topographical map.
>>> 
>>> Ed
>>> 
>>> On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 08:36:49 -0500, Eli Hestermann
>>> <ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:
>>> 
>>>  
>>> 
>>>> Have a friend with GPS stop by. Dad brought one at Christmas, and I
>>>> learned our house is exactly 1000' above sea level.
>>>>    
>>>> 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23372
From: Bill Dauphin 
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 22:54:11 -0500
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On 1/18/04 2:40 AM, in article 400a368e.365886628@news.sff.net, "Fader"
<fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 21:01:06 -0500, JT <JT@REM0VEsff.net> wrote:
> 
>> C'mon, guys, are things that bad that we can't even talk about a major
>> space initiative?  At least on paper, it's something.
>> 
> I hate being in this position, really hate it, but I don't want a Bush
> space program. 

I feel somewhat the same, though I don't think I share your reasons exactly.

> I don't trust the man, or his people.

Neither do I, and it pains me to no end that the first plausible new space
initiative in decades is coming from a man I can't bring myself to support,
for reasons that have nothing to do with space.

> I think that
> "human settlement" really means Military installation.

This is where I start to differ: I don't think they really have military
bases on the Moon in mind. For one thing, they'd have virtually no utility,
all RAH's scenarios notwithstanding. The Moon'd be a lousy place to base
nuclear weapons aimed at Earth, and "throwing rocks" only worked in TMIAHM
because it was unexpected (just as using airliners as terrorist bombs only
worked because nobody expected it). Further, while we've never ratified the
Moon Treaty (nor has any other spacefaring nation), we are signatories to
the Outer Space Treaty. A military base on the moon *might* not violate the
letter of that treaty (if we could figure out a way to establish a base
without making a claim of sovereignty), but it would certainly stretch the
spirit. Placing nukes (or any WMDs, including presumably "rocks" <g>)
*would* violate the treaty. Not that the Bushies would care, of course, but
by the time we could get any base built, we'll have a new administration...
presumably one that will give a rat's @ss about international law.

If you're worried about MilSpace, you should be looking more at the
hypersonic propulsion research DARPA and the Air Force are doing. But in
truth, the military doesn't scare me these days, not nearly as much as the
"Justice" Department does. I remarked the other day on another forum that I
wouldn't vote for President Bush if John Ashcroft held a gun to my head...
and Lord knows, he might!

> That's if this
> isn't just some massive smokescreen to distract the american people
> from the real issues.

I'm not really worried about that, either. While there's certainly a
political upside to proposing a bold (well, bold*ish*) new initiative,
there's also a downside to proposing a major new federal program, regardless
of how little new money they say it will cost. In the context of tax cuts,
deficits, and underfunding of things like No Child Left Behind, this
initiative gives ammo to Bush's critics both on the left AND the right. No,
I believe at some level he's genuinely interested in space exploration, and
willing to take some political risks to propose it. And that makes it all
the more frustrating that I also believe he's a dangerous man whose
reelection must be opposed.

The bottom line is that I definitely support a government program of human
space exploration. (No matter what the entrepreneurs manage to accomplish in
sub-orbit and LEO, it's gonna take gummint money, at least at first, to
explore the moon and Mars.) The present proposal actually strikes me as a
bit timid, both in scope and schedule, but it's a damn sight better than
anything anyone else has proposed in years. My fondest hope is that it will
so capture the public's imagination that the next administration (hopefully
next year!) will be compelled to do something like it.

But I'm afraid I ain't waitin' underwater, if you know what I mean.

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23373
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 20 Jan 2004 04:34:09 GMT
Subject: New stuff at heinleinsociety.org
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

David Silver on "Coventry": http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/works/shortstories/coventry.html

THS makes is easy to subscribe to The Heinlein Journal, the best source
of new scholarship on the life & career or RAH here: http://www.heinleinsociety.org/specialoffers/THJ.html

Bill Patterson's excellent "A Study of 'IF THIS GOES ON--'" here: http://www.heinleinsociety.org/rah/works/novels/ifthisogoeson.html

This last is particularly interesting right now, and is commended to the
attention of those of you who will be voting for Retro Hugo nominations.
. .the 1953 Novel-length version is the one that almost everyone knows as
the lynchpin of RAH's Future History, and is almost twice the length of
the 1940 version (which was a novella). Arguably this makes it eligible
for consideration for a Retro Hugo this year.

Best. Geo

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23374
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 20 Jan 2004 04:42:52 GMT
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting-- _For Us the Living_ -- Jan 22, 24
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Heya, Mitch. Nice to see your pixels!

Best. Geo [From GEnie days of yore]

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23375
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 20 Jan 2004 04:44:06 GMT
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting-- _For Us the Living_ -- Jan 22, 24
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Heya, Mitch! Nice to see your pixels.

Best. Geo [From GEnie days of yore]

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23376
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 20 Jan 2004 04:46:22 GMT
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting-- _For Us the Living_ -- Jan 22, 24
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Now that's odd --I was sure I posted this in people-r-a-h. So sure that
when it didn't show up I posted it again. Weird.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23377
From: Oscagne" 
Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2004 22:51:06 -0600
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting-- _For Us the Living_ -- Jan 22, 24
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


<georule@civilwarstlouis.com> wrote in message
news:400cb29e.0@news.sff.net...
> Now that's odd --I was sure I posted this in people-r-a-h. So sure that
> when it didn't show up I posted it again. Weird.

I crossposted the thread-starter to both, Geo.  Might that account for it?

-- 
Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics
wanna read a story?  http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/mss
or see my goofy website?  http://users.ev1.net/~mcgrew/webpage/home.htm

The next Heinlein Readers Group chats will be:
_For Us the Living_ on
Thursday, January 22 at 8:00 p.m. central and
Saturday, January 24 at 4:00 p.m. central.
See http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#info
to participate.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23378
From: William J. Keaton" 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 02:11:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Altitude above sea level
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote in message
news:2udl00117mspl2ippcpini3d0fiq32ft1g@4ax.com...
> Eli:   I have reason to question the accuracy of GPS.

Just as an anecdotal note, a few years ago I had an Earthmate GPS on my
laptop computer. I would sit and watch the altitude indicator move slowly up
and down through a range of about 100 feet. It's a wonder I didn't get
seasick! I believe this was in the days when they were still munging
civilian readings a bit.

WJaKe



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23379
From: William J. Keaton" 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 02:13:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Darwins & 2036 Headlines
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

My favorite Darwin award went to the guy who used a .22 caliber cartridge to
replace a fuse in his truck. The round went off, wounding the driver in an
area that ended his genetic line....

WJaKe



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23380
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 09:57:18 GMT
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

>C'mon, guys, are things that bad that we can't even talk about a major
>space initiative?  At least on paper, it's something.

  I'm getting too old and have seen and studied too much history to
get excited about it. I watched the last man step off the Moon in the
1970s. I have a copy of the last Mission to Mars prospectus from NASA
from the 1980s. That plan sounded more serious and real than this one
and it went nowhere. 

  If President Bush had ever said anything like this at any point in
the past I might take it more seriously, but to abruptly pop up with
the notion based on current popular news, some cheery opinion polls,
and China creating a bit of a fuss, just doesn't show me anything that
looks substantial. It's all smoke and dreams at this point and the
dreams aren't even ones the instigator seems more than superficially
committed to. 

  There was more hope, and more potential reality in the short speech
Art Dula of the Heinlein Prize Trust made at Heinlein Society Dinner
at Torcon. (partially quoted online here:
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/conventions/torcon2003/awarddinner.html
)


Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.robertaheinlein.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23381
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 07:42:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Books for sale!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

What?  Selling your book collection !?!?  Are you kids next?   <<VBG>>>

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23382
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 07:52:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Darwins & 2036 Headlines
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader--
     I know there is some heavy fiction involved here -- but the one I
know for sure is invalid for this year is #4:

> 4. A 22-year-old, Glade Drive, Reston, VA, man was
> found dead after he
> tried to use octopus straps to bungee jump off a
> 70-foot railroad trestle. Fairfax County police said
> Eric Barcia, a
> fast-food worker, taped a bunch of these straps
> together, wrapped one end
> around one foot, anchored the other end to the trestle
> at Lake Accotink
> Park, jumped and hit the pavement. Warren Carmichael,
> a police spokesman,
> said investigators think Barcia was alone because his
> car was found
> nearby. "The length of the cord that he had assembled
> was greater than the
> distance between the trestle and the ground,"
> Carmichael said. Police say
> the apparent cause of death was "Major trauma."

     This was reported in the news several years back.  I noted it
because Lake Accotink (Springfield, VA) is one of the places to which I
used to ride my bicycle as a kid. (To go train watching.)  The  bridge
is NOT 70 feet high (try 16) and the octopus was a single cord about 20
feet long.
--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23383
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 08:06:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Darwins & 2036 Headlines
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Oscagne wrote:

> Reminds me of our neighbor when I was a teen.  He was the kind that never
> had tools, and always borrowed ours (although contrary to the stereotype, he
> always brought them back, so we kept lending).  One day he dashed across the
> street desperate for duct tape, and then needed help because he didn't fit
> into the crawl space in his attic (and I did, unfortunately).  You see... he
> had a squirrels in his attic and had decided to shoot them with his .22.  We
> used the duct tape to temporarilty fix the new leaks in his attic plumbing.
>
> --
> Oscagne, High Priest of Skeptics and Cynics

     Why would one have plumbing in the attic?  You sure it wasn't just a
basement crawl space?

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with remaining
good eye.'"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23384
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 08:07:44 -0500
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I hate to say it, but the proposal is going exactly nowhere.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23385
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 08:14:46 -0500
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

And don't forget the spin-offs from all that research and engineering. .
..

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23386
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 08:15:34 -0500
Subject: Iowa Primary
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Congratulations to Dukakis the Second.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23387
From: John Paul Vrolyk 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 07:42:40 -0800
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Kevin Patrick Crowley wrote:
> > Remember Tower (think that's his name) & his little coup giving him
> > those missles on the moon.
> 
> Remember it didn't work.

It almost did.  Only a fluke that it didn't.

> Can you do simple arithmetic?

> > No, I don't want them to be first either, particularly since they're
> > even worse about the things I care about. I question the timing of
> > this tho, & could also see really bad things happening. I seem to
> > remember reading a book once, where this is what started WW III.
> 
> Try reading a second book then.  I don't think this is what started
> WWII.  Japanese and German territorial aggressions come to mind.

Before you mock someone's ability to do arithmetic or
to read mulitple books, you might consider cultivating
the ability to distingish World War Two (2 or II)from
World War Three (3 or III).

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23388
From: John Paul Vrolyk 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 07:51:28 -0800
Subject: Re: I know all y'all will understand....
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.parenting
            sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT wrote:
> But I'm very happy right now because Daniel successfully did "#2" in
> his potty!  He's been OK with #1 for a while right now, but this was
> the first time it wasn't sheer luck that he used his potty for the
> other one.

Congratulations.

> I can only hope this is the start of the "end" of potty training. ;)
> Thanks for 'listening', this is the only newsgroup I think I could
> post this to.... <VBG>

There's no reason you couldn't have posted this on the HF
in the first place, JT.  (Is there?)

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23389
From: Kevin Patrick Crowley 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:18:06 -0600
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I made the assumption Fader made a typo and knew that WWIII hasn't 
occured yet.

Should I have assumed that he thought WWIII has occured?

Kevin



John Paul Vrolyk wrote:

> Kevin Patrick Crowley wrote:
> 
>>>Remember Tower (think that's his name) & his little coup giving him
>>>those missles on the moon.
>>
>>Remember it didn't work.
> 
> 
> It almost did.  Only a fluke that it didn't.
> 
> 
>>Can you do simple arithmetic?
> 
> 
>>>No, I don't want them to be first either, particularly since they're
>>>even worse about the things I care about. I question the timing of
>>>this tho, & could also see really bad things happening. I seem to
>>>remember reading a book once, where this is what started WW III.
>>
>>Try reading a second book then.  I don't think this is what started
>>WWII.  Japanese and German territorial aggressions come to mind.
> 
> 
> Before you mock someone's ability to do arithmetic or
> to read mulitple books, you might consider cultivating
> the ability to distingish World War Two (2 or II)from
> World War Three (3 or III).
> 

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23390
From: postmaster@sff.net
Date: 11 Jan 2004 23:52:10 GMT
Subject: No articles presently in newsgroup.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This newsgroup has no articles yet; however, if
you were to post something, it would.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23391
From: Jeffry Dwight 
Date: 20 Jan 2004 16:27:37 GMT
Subject: Base64
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

David Wright, your last post came through as Base64 encoded. I deleted it
for you. Please repost in text format.

- j.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23392
From: postmaster@sff.net
Date: 11 Jan 2004 23:52:10 GMT
Subject: No articles presently in newsgroup.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This newsgroup has no articles yet; however, if
you were to post something, it would.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23393
From: Jeffry Dwight 
Date: 20 Jan 2004 16:48:34 GMT
Subject: Re: Base64
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Second verse same as the first, Dave. What are you trying to post?

- j.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23394
From: postmaster@sff.net
Date: 11 Jan 2004 23:52:10 GMT
Subject: No articles presently in newsgroup.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This newsgroup has no articles yet; however, if
you were to post something, it would.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23395
From: Jeffry Dwight 
Date: 20 Jan 2004 16:50:32 GMT
Subject: Re: Base64
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Third verse, too. I'll let this one stay so you can see it.

- j.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23396
From: postmaster@sff.net
Date: 11 Jan 2004 23:52:10 GMT
Subject: No articles presently in newsgroup.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This newsgroup has no articles yet; however, if
you were to post something, it would.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23397
From: Jeffry Dwight 
Date: 20 Jan 2004 16:53:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Base64
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Dave, it's still coming out Base64. Why not use sff.test until you figure
it out? I'll delete your last two.

- j.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23398
From: Steve Ratzlaff" 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 10:56:18 -0600
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Hi, David.

With Outlook Express, you need to change the News Sending Format setting to
Plain Text.  You'll find this from the menu on the Tools->Options->Compose
tab.


David Wright wrote:
> "David Wright" <dwrighsr@alltel.net> wrote in message
> news:400d5c0a.0@news.sff.net...
>> As I posted this accidentally with base64 encoding, I do not know if
>> anyone was able to read it, so I am re-posting. Please excuse the
>> foul-up.
>>
>
> Hmm, that didn't seem to work either.
>
> David



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23399
From: David Wright" 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:56:07 -0500
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

DQoiU3RldmUgUmF0emxhZmYiIDxzdGV2ZXIgYXQgZ3JleXdhcmUuY29tPiB3cm90ZSBpbiBtZXNz
YWdlIG5ld3M6NDAwZDVkYjMuMEBuZXdzLnNmZi5uZXQuLi4NCj4gSGksIERhdmlkLg0KPiANCj4g
V2l0aCBPdXRsb29rIEV4cHJlc3MsIHlvdSBuZWVkIHRvIGNoYW5nZSB0aGUgTmV3cyBTZW5kaW5n
IEZvcm1hdCBzZXR0aW5nIHRvDQo+IFBsYWluIFRleHQuICBZb3UnbGwgZmluZCB0aGlzIGZyb20g
dGhlIG1lbnUgb24gdGhlIFRvb2xzLT5PcHRpb25zLT5Db21wb3NlDQo+IHRhYi4NCj4gDQoNCihz
bmlwKQ0KDQpIb3cgYWJvdXQgbm93Pw0KRGF2aWQ=


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23400
From: David Wright" 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 12:15:34 -0500
Subject: Test
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I have made all of the changes and this should work ok.
David

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23401
From: Jeffry Dwight 
Date: 20 Jan 2004 17:41:29 GMT
Subject: Re: Test
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

And it did.

- j.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23402
From: David Wright" 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 12:48:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Test
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Jeffry Dwight" <jeffry.dwight@greyware.com> wrote in message
news:400d6849.0@news.sff.net...
> And it did.
>
> - j.

óÌÁ×Á âÏÇÕ. (Thank God)
-- 
David Wright
The Beginning of a New Year
Now is the time to join The Heinlein Society
http://heinleinsociety.org/join.html
Benefit The Heinlein Society by ordering books thru:
http://home.alltel.net/dwrighsr/heinlein-amazon.htm

Join us at the next Heinlein Readers Group
Topic: "For Us, The Living"
Thursday, January 22 at 9:00 P.M. EST.
Saturday, January 24 at 5:00 p.m. EST.

See http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info for instructions
Go to top of that page for list of previous discussion logs.


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23403
From: Steve Ratzlaff" 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 12:08:43 -0600
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Yep, that's the ticket.

> How about now?
> David



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23404
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:22:59 -0800
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Kevin Patrick Crowley wrote:
> I made the assumption Fader made a typo and knew that WWIII hasn't
> occured yet.
>
> Should I have assumed that he thought WWIII has occured?
>
> Kevin

He said, "I seem to remember reading a book once, where this is what started
WW III."

Since fact or fiction wasn't specified, and we are all science fiction
readers, I suspect that he a) Was talking about WWIII and b) Does not
believe it has occured yet.


-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23405
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 11:59:03 -0800
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Monday, January 19, 2004 4:04 AM, Kevin Patrick Crowley wrote:

> Interspesed
>
> Fader wrote:
<snip>
> > Remember Tower (think that's his name) & his little coup giving him
> > those missles on the moon.
>
> Remember it didn't work.

Does it matter? It was fiction. What is important is A) will there be
missiles on the Moon, and B) if not, will people believe there are such
missiles, and react badly thereby?

> > Do you really trust Dubya & buddies to have this ability, think
> > about Iraq, think about Homeland security, think about the Patriot
> > Act. One might also think about the reaction of other world
> > leaders, cause I guarentee{sp?} you that they are thinking about
> > all of it.
>
>
> Can you do simple arithmetic?  By the time this plan come to fruition
> Bush will be out of office.  Oh that's right, the secret police are
> still coming and will be arresting you sometime *Real Soon* because
> you
> have had this insight.

You seem to be assuming a lot more paranoia than I see here, though I don't
agree with Fader. While I admit that Bush will be out of office, the
bureaucrats often go on forever. The bureaucrats have more direct long term
power than presidents, and their track record isn't good. Consider the
Church Committee's investigation of COINTELPRO (or Reagan's pardoning of
perpetrators of COINTEL but not the victims), the Senate investigations into
the BATF in 1980, or the shennanigans the FBI has admitted to (not just the
ones claimed and unproven) in the David Koresh affair.

More importantly, how do you know that some future president won't inherit
whatever Bush and his cronies puts together, and use it in some way that
seems farfetched today, but they can get away with under unknown
circumstances in a turbulent tomorrow?

> As for other "WORLD LEADERS"  they do not exist.  We are the world
> leaders.  All others are wannabees.

That seems to be a rather extreme and exaggerated statement.

> Kevin
>
> Who has never worn a tinfoil hat.

It hardly takes being one of the tinfoil hat crowd to note that government
agencies have repeatedly violated our rights on many, many occasions, and
thus can hardly be trusted with our rights into the indefinite future. If
you doubt it, look into what they did to the Black Panthers.

Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23406
From: Kevin Patrick Crowley 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:46:49 -0600
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Interspersed

Filksinger wrote:

> On Monday, January 19, 2004 4:04 AM, Kevin Patrick Crowley wrote:
> 
> 
>>Interspesed
>>
>>Fader wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
>>>Remember Tower (think that's his name) & his little coup giving him
>>>those missles on the moon.
>>
>>Remember it didn't work.
> 
> 
> Does it matter? It was fiction. What is important is A) will there be
> missiles on the Moon, and B) if not, will people believe there are such
> missiles, and react badly thereby?

Missiles already exist in many places.  Having some on the Moon would 
have little value except as a vengeance/terror weapon as the response 
time would be hours to reach a target using present technology. So that 
is just a strawman as MAD is no longer practiced.  What could only 
happen if the US allows someone else to build up a large enough arsenal. 
  What would be practiced now if KYAG if you use nukes on somebody.


> 
> 
>>>Do you really trust Dubya & buddies to have this ability, think
>>>about Iraq, think about Homeland security, think about the Patriot
>>>Act. One might also think about the reaction of other world
>>>leaders, cause I guarentee{sp?} you that they are thinking about
>>>all of it.
>>
>>
>>Can you do simple arithmetic?  By the time this plan come to fruition
>>Bush will be out of office.  Oh that's right, the secret police are
>>still coming and will be arresting you sometime *Real Soon* because
>>you
>>have had this insight.
> 
> 
> You seem to be assuming a lot more paranoia than I see here, though I don't
> agree with Fader. While I admit that Bush will be out of office, the
> bureaucrats often go on forever. The bureaucrats have more direct long term
> power than presidents, and their track record isn't good. Consider the
> Church Committee's investigation of COINTELPRO (or Reagan's pardoning of
> perpetrators of COINTEL but not the victims), the Senate investigations into
> the BATF in 1980, or the shennanigans the FBI has admitted to (not just the
> ones claimed and unproven) in the David Koresh affair.

I'm going with Faders previous displays of paranoia here.  There always 
have been government excesses in any government.  What matters is what 
usually happens.  Usually they try to stay within the rules and treat 
people according to the constitution.  Not always I will readily admit 
but but that is not what is usual.

> 
> More importantly, how do you know that some future president won't inherit
> whatever Bush and his cronies puts together, and use it in some way that
> seems farfetched today, but they can get away with under unknown
> circumstances in a turbulent tomorrow?

And how do you know they won't do something good because they can get 
away with it?  If you never do something worthwhile because someone in 
the future might misuse it you will, by definition, never do anything.
> 
> 
>>As for other "WORLD LEADERS"  they do not exist.  We are the world
>>leaders.  All others are wannabees.
> 
> 
> That seems to be a rather extreme and exaggerated statement.

How so?  Name one other leader that can make a decision stick without 
asking other countries permission.  Not saying that we should but only 
that we are the only ones who can pretty much whatever we have the will 
to do even in the face of worldwide opposition.  No one else can.
No one.
> 
> 
>>Kevin
>>
>>Who has never worn a tinfoil hat.
> 
> 
> It hardly takes being one of the tinfoil hat crowd to note that government
> agencies have repeatedly violated our rights on many, many occasions, and
> thus can hardly be trusted with our rights into the indefinite future. If
> you doubt it, look into what they did to the Black Panthers.


Most of the violations of that nature were the work of dictator for life 
and famous cross-dresser J. Edgar Hoover.  At the same time many FBI 
agents were doing good work that advanced civil rights.  JEH is gone. 
Reno is gone.  Some one good may come along next.  Some one bad may come 
along.  That is life.  The system works usually.  Not excusing their 
behavior just noting that it is not the norm.


Kevin


> 
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
> 
> 

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23407
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 21:27:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Darwins & 2036 Headlines
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>     Why would one have plumbing in the attic?  You sure it wasn't just a
>basement crawl space?

  Our plumbing is in the attic--no basement, no crawl space, just a
slab on the ground.


Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.robertaheinlein.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23408
From: Mitch Wagner 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:32:12 -0800
Subject: Re: RAH-AIM Readers Group chat meeting-- _For Us the Living_ -- Jan 22, 24
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On 20 Jan 2004 04:42:52 GMT, georule@civilwarstlouis.com wrote:

> Heya, Mitch. Nice to see your pixels!
> 
> Best. Geo [From GEnie days of yore]

Heya, Geo from Genie, good to see you too. 

I just did a very long Heinlen post on my blog, you and other Heinlein fans
may be interested:

http://blog.mitchwagner.com/archives/000269.html

-- 
Mitch Wagner * http://blog.mitchwagner.com/ * Asked by agents if he had
anything else to tell them, Cusack responded: "Yes, I've got monkeys in my
pants." -- CNN.com, Dec. 19, 2002

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23409
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 13:51:53 -0800
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In news:400d93c5.0@news.sff.net, Kevin Patrick Crowley
<kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com> typed:
> Interspersed
>
> Filksinger wrote:
<snip>

> I'm going with Faders previous displays of paranoia here.  There
> always
> have been government excesses in any government.  What matters is what
> usually happens.  Usually they try to stay within the rules and treat
> people according to the constitution.  Not always I will readily admit
> but but that is not what is usual.

Considering that I believe that most of the federal government bureaucracy
is unconstitutional, I find I must disagree. For example, find a single
clause in the Constitution that gives the federal government the authority
to regulate a railroad that is entirely contained within a state, or which
gives the federal government the authority to ban ownership of _anything_.

> > More importantly, how do you know that some future president won't
> > inherit whatever Bush and his cronies puts together, and use it in
> > some way that seems farfetched today, but they can get away with
> > under unknown circumstances in a turbulent tomorrow?
>
> And how do you know they won't do something good because they can get
> away with it?  If you never do something worthwhile because someone in
> the future might misuse it you will, by definition, never do anything.

I did say I disagreed with Fader.

> > > As for other "WORLD LEADERS"  they do not exist.  We are the world
> > > leaders.  All others are wannabees.
> >
> >
> > That seems to be a rather extreme and exaggerated statement.
>
> How so?  Name one other leader that can make a decision stick without
> asking other countries permission.  Not saying that we should but only
> that we are the only ones who can pretty much whatever we have the
> will
> to do even in the face of worldwide opposition.  No one else can.
> No one.

I wouldn't consider that to be a proper definition of "world leader".
Suppose that no one person had that power. Would that mean the world had no
leaders? The president, in theory, has more political power than anyone in
the House or Senate. Does that mean that he is our only leader?

<snip>
> Most of the violations of that nature were the work of dictator for
> life
> and famous cross-dresser J. Edgar Hoover.  At the same time many FBI
> agents were doing good work that advanced civil rights.  JEH is gone.
> Reno is gone.  Some one good may come along next.  Some one bad may
> come along.  That is life.  The system works usually.  Not excusing
> their
> behavior just noting that it is not the norm.

Which isn't the point. I don't have to beleive that the FBI is acting
against anyone's interests (entirely a different question) to note that I
don't want them to have too much power to do so. By your own admission, even
if the power isn't being abused at any particular time in history, there is
ample evidence that sooner or later it will be.


-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23410
From: Bill Dauphin 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 17:20:06 -0500
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On 1/20/04 11:18 AM, in article 400d54ca.0@news.sff.net, "Kevin Patrick
Crowley" <kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com> wrote:

> I made the assumption Fader made a typo and knew that WWIII hasn't
> occured yet.
> 
> Should I have assumed that he thought WWIII has occured?

Well, you might have used Occam's Razor to slice down to the assumption that
the book Fader was referring to was *fiction*. Y'know, people who post here
have been known to read that newfangled "scientifiction" from time to
time... or so I'm told.

I suspect J.P.'s point -- and it's one I was just this close to making
myself -- was that *whatever* you assumed, you might have expressed it a
tiny bit less obnoxiously.

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23411
From: Kevin Patrick Crowley 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 16:48:47 -0600
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Interspersed

Filksinger wrote:
> In news:400d93c5.0@news.sff.net, Kevin Patrick Crowley
> <kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com> typed:
> 
>>Interspersed
>>
>>Filksinger wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
>>I'm going with Faders previous displays of paranoia here.  There
>>always
>>have been government excesses in any government.  What matters is what
>>usually happens.  Usually they try to stay within the rules and treat
>>people according to the constitution.  Not always I will readily admit
>>but but that is not what is usual.
> 
> 
> Considering that I believe that most of the federal government bureaucracy
> is unconstitutional, I find I must disagree. For example, find a single
> clause in the Constitution that gives the federal government the authority
> to regulate a railroad that is entirely contained within a state, or which
> gives the federal government the authority to ban ownership of _anything_.

I might even agree with you but between the commerce clause and SCOTUS 
decisions I say that the argument is Moot.  Arguable certainly, but not 
changable at least in the near term.

SNIPPAGE

> 
>>>>As for other "WORLD LEADERS"  they do not exist.  We are the world
>>>>leaders.  All others are wannabees.
>>>
>>>
>>>That seems to be a rather extreme and exaggerated statement.
>>
>>How so?  Name one other leader that can make a decision stick without
>>asking other countries permission.  Not saying that we should but only
>>that we are the only ones who can pretty much whatever we have the
>>will
>>to do even in the face of worldwide opposition.  No one else can.
>>No one.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't consider that to be a proper definition of "world leader".
> Suppose that no one person had that power. Would that mean the world had no
> leaders? The president, in theory, has more political power than anyone in
> the House or Senate. Does that mean that he is our only leader?

At the moment I would have to say he is the only "World Leader."  Lots 
of regional leaders who can sway world opinion, but not one who could 
make anything stick if we decided against it.  If a regional power can 
lead a large enough coalition of other regional powers I would grant 
them World Leader status.  The UK is almost there because of the 
Commonwealth aspects in it's relationships to it's former colonies.  But 
it couldn't do it unless it had Australia and Canada on it's side and we 
did not get in it's way.   The EU is only a regional power with little 
projective ability. Russia is, at the moment, only able to project 
barely across it's borders.

Who is there that could step up to the plate and effectively interdict 
us?  China couldn't.  It could make us pay a very heavy price for 
invading it but we could cripple it in a few weeks with only 
conventional forces for not exorbitant casualties.

Just nobody could do it.  The UN only has real authority if we allow it 
to.  FrankenReich can't enforce their will except in the EU and the UN.


> 
> <snip>
> 
>>Most of the violations of that nature were the work of dictator for
>>life
>>and famous cross-dresser J. Edgar Hoover.  At the same time many FBI
>>agents were doing good work that advanced civil rights.  JEH is gone.
>>Reno is gone.  Some one good may come along next.  Some one bad may
>>come along.  That is life.  The system works usually.  Not excusing
>>their
>>behavior just noting that it is not the norm.
> 
> 
> Which isn't the point. I don't have to beleive that the FBI is acting
> against anyone's interests (entirely a different question) to note that I
> don't want them to have too much power to do so. By your own admission, even
> if the power isn't being abused at any particular time in history, there is
> ample evidence that sooner or later it will be.
> 
> 

Because government is a human institution it will always err at some 
point.  If the general inertia keeps it mostly on track wide spread 
abuse will not be a problem.  Individual abuses need to be addressed, 
always.

Kevin


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23412
From: JT 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 19:52:47 -0500
Subject: Re: I know all y'all will understand....
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 07:51:28 -0800, John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
wrote:

>JT wrote:
>> But I'm very happy right now because Daniel successfully did "#2" in
>> his potty!  He's been OK with #1 for a while right now, but this was
>> the first time it wasn't sheer luck that he used his potty for the
>> other one.
>
>Congratulations.
>
>> I can only hope this is the start of the "end" of potty training. ;)
>> Thanks for 'listening', this is the only newsgroup I think I could
>> post this to.... <VBG>
>
>There's no reason you couldn't have posted this on the HF
>in the first place, JT.  (Is there?)
Well, no, except that I figured if one wanted to discuss the "dirty
details" of potty-training it was a little more appropriate in
..discuss.parenting. <G>

But since you brought it up, we're on day three, and (cue song) "I
think he's got it, I really think he's got it..."  Combined with the
fact that both kids are over their recent wave of colds and bad dreams
and I'm actually getting about 7 hours of sleep a night! 

By the time we plan another Gathering, I think the kids might be ready
to attend...;)

JT

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23413
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2004 22:16:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Altitude above sea level
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

`rita:
    When I used GlobeXplorer to view my house I got a surprise.
After I zoomed in; the 'close-up' had jumped back in time to an
older aerial view of my house. (swimming pool and fence
"disappeared" <g>).  Something to think about when using
GlobeXplorer.

Ed J
 
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 13:41:28 -0800, "Lorrita Morgan"
<lorrita_m@hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
>
>The only problem with that is IF your street is newer than their information
>you get bad data.  My older kids' sub division went in in 2001.  The map
>info on GlobeXplorer was from 1996.  It placed their address a full minute
>east of their real location.  If I hadn't checked it against other addresses
>and a paper atlas...


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23414
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 20:35:30 -0800
Subject: The True Stella Awards
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

As I noted before, the original Stella Awards were mythical awards given for
mythical outrageous lawsuits, which have been going around the Internet for
some time. The creator of the True Stella Awards, Randy Cassingham, got sick
of this, and sends out outrageous lawsuits that are real. You can sign up
for the newsletter, or read more about it, at www.stellaawards.com.

Now, he has released the True Stella Award winners for 2003, which are
presented below, copied with permission:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

The TRUE Stella Awards -- 2003 Winners
by Randy Cassingham
Issued 21 January 2003

  Unlike the FAKE cases that have been highly circulated online for the
last several years (see http://www.StellaAwards.com/bogus.html for
details), the following cases have been researched from public sources
and are confirmed TRUE by the ONLY legitimate source for the Stella
Awards: www.StellaAwards.com . To confirm this copy is legitimate, see
http://www.StellaAwards.com/2003.html

                                   -v-

THE RUNNERS UP FOR THE 2003 TRUE STELLA AWARDS ARE:

#8: Stephen Joseph of San Francisco, Calif. Joseph runs a non-profit
  group whose goal is to ban the "trans fats" used in many processed
  foods and which are indeed very unhealthy. But to help gain publicity
  for his cause, Joseph, an attorney, chose one food that uses trans
  fats -- Oreo cookies -- and sued Kraft Foods for putting the stuff in
  the snack. The resulting publicity over "suing Oreos" was so intense
  that Joseph dropped the suit after just 13 days. He never even served
  the suit on Kraft, showing that he had no interest in actually getting
  the case heard in court. What real cases got pushed aside during his
  abuse of the courts to get publicity for his pet organization?

#7: Shawn Perkins of Laurel, Ind. Perkins was hit by lightning in the
  parking lot Paramount's Kings Island amusement park in Mason, Ohio. A
  classic "act of God", right? No, says Perkins' lawyer. "That would be
  a lot of people's knee-jerk reaction in these types of situations."
  The lawyer has filed suit against the amusement park asking
  unspecified damages, arguing the park should have "warned" people not
  to be outside during a thunderstorm.

#6: Caesar Barber, 56, of New York City. Barber, who is 5-foot-10 and 270
  pounds, says he is obese, diabetic, and suffers from heart disease
  because fast food restaurants forced him to eat their fatty food four
  to five times per week. He filed suit against McDonald's, Burger King,
  Wendy's and KFC, who "profited enormously" and asked for unspecified
  damages because the eateries didn't warn him that junk food isn't good
  for him. The judge threw the case out twice, and barred it from being
  filed a third time. Is that the end of such McCases? No way: lawyers
  will just find another plaintiff and start over, legal scholars say.

#5: Cole Bartiromo, 18, of Mission Viejo, Calif. After making over $1
  million in the stock market, the feds made Bartiromo pay it all back:
  he gained his profits, they said, using fraud. Bartiromo played
  baseball at school, but after his fraud case broke he was no longer
  allowed to participate in extracurricular sports. Bartiromo clearly
  learned a lot while sitting in federal court: he wrote and filed his
  own lawsuit against his high school, reasoning that he had planned on
  a pro baseball career but, because he was kicked off the school's
  team, pro scouts wouldn't be able to discover him. His suit demands
  the school reimburse him for the great salary he would have made in
  the majors, which he figures is $50 million.

#4: Priest David Hanser, 70. Hanser was one of the first Catholic priests
  to be caught up in the sex abuse scandal. In 1990, he settled a suit
  filed by one of his victims for $65,000. In the settlement, Hanser
  agreed not to work with children anymore, but the victim learned that
  Hanser was ignoring that part of the agreement. The victim appealed to
  the church, asking it to stop Hanser from working near children, but
  the church would not intervene. "It's up to the church to decide where
  he works," argued the priest's lawyer. When the outraged victim went
  to the press to warn the public that a pedo priest was near children,
  Hanser sued him for the same $65,000 because he violated his own part
  of the deal -- to keep the settlement secret. The message is clear:
  shut up about outrageous abuse, or we'll sue you for catching us.

#3: Wanda Hudson, 44, of Mobile, Ala. After Hudson lost her home to
  foreclosure, she moved her belongings to a storage unit. She says she
  was inside her unit one night "looking for some papers" when the
  storage yard manager found the door to her unit ajar -- and locked it.
  She denies that she was sleeping inside, but incredibly did not call
  for help or bang on the door to be let out! She was not found for 63
  days and barely survived; the formerly "plump" 150-pound woman lived
  on food she just happened to have in the unit, and was a mere 83
  pounds when she was found. She sued the storage yard for $10 million
  claiming negligence. Even though the jury was not allowed to learn
  that Hudson had previously diagnosed mental problems, it found Hudson
  was nearly 100 percent responsible for her own predicament -- but
  still awarded her $100,000.

#2: Doug Baker, 45, of Portland, Ore. Baker says God "steered" him to a
  stray dog. He admits "People thought I was crazy" to spend $4,000 in
  vet bills to bring the injured mutt back to health, but hey, it was
  God's dog! But $4,000 was nothing: he couldn't even take his
  girlfriend out to dinner without getting a dog-sitter to watch him.
  When the skittish dog escaped the sitter, Baker didn't just put an ad
  in the paper, he bought display ads so he could include a photo. His
  business collapsed since he devoted full time to the search for the
  dog. He didn't propose to his girlfriend because he wanted the dog to
  deliver the ring to her. He hired four "animal psychics" to give him
  clues to the animal's whereabouts, and hired a witch to cast spells.
  He even spread his own urine around to "mark his territory" to try to
  lure the dog home! And, he said, he cried every day. Two months in to
  the search, he went looking for the dog where it got lost -- and
  quickly found it. His first task: he put a collar on the mutt. (He
  hadn't done that before for a dog that was so "valuable"?!) After
  finding the dog, he sued the dog sitter, demanding $20,000 for the
  cost of his search, $30,000 for the income he lost by letting his
  business collapse, $10,000 for "the temporary loss of the special
  value" of the dog, and $100,000 in "emotional damages" -- $160,000
  total. God has not been named as a defendant.

AND THE WINNER of the 2003 True Stella Awards: The City of Madera, Calif.
  Madera police officer Marcy Noriega had the suspect from a minor
  disturbance handcuffed in the back of her patrol car. When the suspect
  started to kick at the car's windows, Officer Noriega decided to
  subdue him with her Taser. Incredibly, instead of pulling her stun gun
  from her belt, she pulled her service sidearm and shot the man in the
  chest, killing him instantly. The city, however, says the killing is
  not the officer's fault; it argues that "any reasonable police
  officer" could "mistakenly draw and fire a handgun instead of the
  Taser device" and has filed suit against Taser, arguing the company
  should pay for any award from the wrongful death lawsuit the man's
  family has filed. What a slur against every professionally trained
  police officer who knows the difference between a real gun and a stun
  gun! And what a cowardly attempt to escape responsibility for the
  actions of its own under-trained officer.

NOTE: If the write-up doesn't state an outcome for a case, it's probably
  still pending. Unlike the fantasy world of the urban legend Stella
  Awards, in real life the courts are so clogged, and "justice" so slow,
  that it can take many years for a case to conclude. Sorry, but there
  are no pat endings in the real world. If YOU hear of an update, please
  DO send us a URL so we can update our readers. Thanks.

TO CONFIRM THE VALIDITY OF THESE CASES, get more information on the True
  Stella Awards, or sign up for a free e-mail subscription to new cases
  as they are issued, see http://www.StellaAwards.com/2003.html

Copyright 2004 www.StellaAwards.com . This message may be forwarded as
  long as it remains complete and unaltered.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23415
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 15:56:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Darwins & 2036 Headlines
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Deb--
     Correction noted.  It might work out there, but it would never work
in this climate.  In the Bahamas and BVI outdoor water pipes are often
just laid on top of the ground.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23416
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 16:16:48 -0500
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Filksinger wrote:

> In news:400d93c5.0@news.sff.net, Kevin Patrick Crowley

> Considering that I believe that most of the federal government bureaucracy
> is unconstitutional, I find I must disagree. For example, find a single
> clause in the Constitution that gives the federal government the authority
> to regulate a railroad that is entirely contained within a state, or which
> gives the federal government the authority to ban ownership of _anything_.

     That I think our government is drastically out of control is no surprise to
those others that have been here a while.

     A supreme court case on or about 1943 determined that a farmer raising a
crop to feed his own livestock was nonetheless part of interstate commerce
opened the floodgates for claiming anything was interstate commerce.  It got so
bad that during the Clinton administration they tried to justify the ban on
firearms within a certain range of and school on that basis.  A justice asked
the government lawyer if he could name anything that couldn't then be stretched
to be covered by the commerce clause.  The justice department lawyer could not.

    As far as the railroad item goes, it hits home.  I have been a volunteer at
Whitewater Valley Railroad since 1975.  A bill was passed by our
congresscritters with the intent to give the FRA (Federal Railroad Authority)
over a proposed high speed (maglev) RR system proposed for within California.
That proposal (as have been all such proposals) was vaporware; but the FRA
looked at the law and concluded that it gave them authority to regulate any RR
that connects to any railroad that goes interstate.  Removing the connection,
however, would not get you out from under them.  Court challenges were denied --
no branch of the federal government likes to do anything to reduce the powers
thereof.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with remaining
good eye.'"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23417
From: \"gunner\"" 
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 20:15:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Test
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

5x5 here david
"gunner"
--------------------------
"David Wright" <dwrighsr@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:400d62a4.0@news.sff.net...
> I have made all of the changes and this should work ok.
> David



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23418
From: \"gunner\"" 
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 20:30:55 -0500
Subject: Re: The True Stella Awards
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"What a slur against every professionally trained
  police officer who knows the difference between a real gun and a stun
  gun! And what a cowardly attempt to escape responsibility for the
  actions of its own under-trained officer."
----------------------------------------
a side note: i agree with the above quoted remarks, i'm not a police officer
but in the course of my career i've handled  fireams routinely and carried
them on a daily basis, and still do now that i'm retired. i cannot see how a
duty pistol could have been mistaken for a taser. the heft and feel of the
two are completely different to say nothing of physical appearance. i wonder
if perhaps the city of madera is hoping to forestall a wrongful death suit
by the deceased's family by sticking it to the makers of the taser
"gunner"
----------------------------------.
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:400f531d.0@news.sff.net...
> As I noted before, the original Stella Awards were mythical awards given
for
> mythical outrageous lawsuits, which have been going around the Internet
for
> some time. The creator of the True Stella Awards, Randy Cassingham, got
sick
> of this, and sends out outrageous lawsuits that are real. You can sign up
> for the newsletter, or read more about it, at www.stellaawards.com.
>
> Now, he has released the True Stella Award winners for 2003, which are
> presented below, copied with permission:
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The TRUE Stella Awards -- 2003 Winners
> by Randy Cassingham
> Issued 21 January 2003
>
>   Unlike the FAKE cases that have been highly circulated online for the
> last several years (see http://www.StellaAwards.com/bogus.html for
> details), the following cases have been researched from public sources
> and are confirmed TRUE by the ONLY legitimate source for the Stella
> Awards: www.StellaAwards.com . To confirm this copy is legitimate, see
> http://www.StellaAwards.com/2003.html
>
>                                    -v-
>
> THE RUNNERS UP FOR THE 2003 TRUE STELLA AWARDS ARE:
>
> #8: Stephen Joseph of San Francisco, Calif. Joseph runs a non-profit
>   group whose goal is to ban the "trans fats" used in many processed
>   foods and which are indeed very unhealthy. But to help gain publicity
>   for his cause, Joseph, an attorney, chose one food that uses trans
>   fats -- Oreo cookies -- and sued Kraft Foods for putting the stuff in
>   the snack. The resulting publicity over "suing Oreos" was so intense
>   that Joseph dropped the suit after just 13 days. He never even served
>   the suit on Kraft, showing that he had no interest in actually getting
>   the case heard in court. What real cases got pushed aside during his
>   abuse of the courts to get publicity for his pet organization?
>
> #7: Shawn Perkins of Laurel, Ind. Perkins was hit by lightning in the
>   parking lot Paramount's Kings Island amusement park in Mason, Ohio. A
>   classic "act of God", right? No, says Perkins' lawyer. "That would be
>   a lot of people's knee-jerk reaction in these types of situations."
>   The lawyer has filed suit against the amusement park asking
>   unspecified damages, arguing the park should have "warned" people not
>   to be outside during a thunderstorm.
>
> #6: Caesar Barber, 56, of New York City. Barber, who is 5-foot-10 and 270
>   pounds, says he is obese, diabetic, and suffers from heart disease
>   because fast food restaurants forced him to eat their fatty food four
>   to five times per week. He filed suit against McDonald's, Burger King,
>   Wendy's and KFC, who "profited enormously" and asked for unspecified
>   damages because the eateries didn't warn him that junk food isn't good
>   for him. The judge threw the case out twice, and barred it from being
>   filed a third time. Is that the end of such McCases? No way: lawyers
>   will just find another plaintiff and start over, legal scholars say.
>
> #5: Cole Bartiromo, 18, of Mission Viejo, Calif. After making over $1
>   million in the stock market, the feds made Bartiromo pay it all back:
>   he gained his profits, they said, using fraud. Bartiromo played
>   baseball at school, but after his fraud case broke he was no longer
>   allowed to participate in extracurricular sports. Bartiromo clearly
>   learned a lot while sitting in federal court: he wrote and filed his
>   own lawsuit against his high school, reasoning that he had planned on
>   a pro baseball career but, because he was kicked off the school's
>   team, pro scouts wouldn't be able to discover him. His suit demands
>   the school reimburse him for the great salary he would have made in
>   the majors, which he figures is $50 million.
>
> #4: Priest David Hanser, 70. Hanser was one of the first Catholic priests
>   to be caught up in the sex abuse scandal. In 1990, he settled a suit
>   filed by one of his victims for $65,000. In the settlement, Hanser
>   agreed not to work with children anymore, but the victim learned that
>   Hanser was ignoring that part of the agreement. The victim appealed to
>   the church, asking it to stop Hanser from working near children, but
>   the church would not intervene. "It's up to the church to decide where
>   he works," argued the priest's lawyer. When the outraged victim went
>   to the press to warn the public that a pedo priest was near children,
>   Hanser sued him for the same $65,000 because he violated his own part
>   of the deal -- to keep the settlement secret. The message is clear:
>   shut up about outrageous abuse, or we'll sue you for catching us.
>
> #3: Wanda Hudson, 44, of Mobile, Ala. After Hudson lost her home to
>   foreclosure, she moved her belongings to a storage unit. She says she
>   was inside her unit one night "looking for some papers" when the
>   storage yard manager found the door to her unit ajar -- and locked it.
>   She denies that she was sleeping inside, but incredibly did not call
>   for help or bang on the door to be let out! She was not found for 63
>   days and barely survived; the formerly "plump" 150-pound woman lived
>   on food she just happened to have in the unit, and was a mere 83
>   pounds when she was found. She sued the storage yard for $10 million
>   claiming negligence. Even though the jury was not allowed to learn
>   that Hudson had previously diagnosed mental problems, it found Hudson
>   was nearly 100 percent responsible for her own predicament -- but
>   still awarded her $100,000.
>
> #2: Doug Baker, 45, of Portland, Ore. Baker says God "steered" him to a
>   stray dog. He admits "People thought I was crazy" to spend $4,000 in
>   vet bills to bring the injured mutt back to health, but hey, it was
>   God's dog! But $4,000 was nothing: he couldn't even take his
>   girlfriend out to dinner without getting a dog-sitter to watch him.
>   When the skittish dog escaped the sitter, Baker didn't just put an ad
>   in the paper, he bought display ads so he could include a photo. His
>   business collapsed since he devoted full time to the search for the
>   dog. He didn't propose to his girlfriend because he wanted the dog to
>   deliver the ring to her. He hired four "animal psychics" to give him
>   clues to the animal's whereabouts, and hired a witch to cast spells.
>   He even spread his own urine around to "mark his territory" to try to
>   lure the dog home! And, he said, he cried every day. Two months in to
>   the search, he went looking for the dog where it got lost -- and
>   quickly found it. His first task: he put a collar on the mutt. (He
>   hadn't done that before for a dog that was so "valuable"?!) After
>   finding the dog, he sued the dog sitter, demanding $20,000 for the
>   cost of his search, $30,000 for the income he lost by letting his
>   business collapse, $10,000 for "the temporary loss of the special
>   value" of the dog, and $100,000 in "emotional damages" -- $160,000
>   total. God has not been named as a defendant.
>
> AND THE WINNER of the 2003 True Stella Awards: The City of Madera, Calif.
>   Madera police officer Marcy Noriega had the suspect from a minor
>   disturbance handcuffed in the back of her patrol car. When the suspect
>   started to kick at the car's windows, Officer Noriega decided to
>   subdue him with her Taser. Incredibly, instead of pulling her stun gun
>   from her belt, she pulled her service sidearm and shot the man in the
>   chest, killing him instantly. The city, however, says the killing is
>   not the officer's fault; it argues that "any reasonable police
>   officer" could "mistakenly draw and fire a handgun instead of the
>   Taser device" and has filed suit against Taser, arguing the company
>   should pay for any award from the wrongful death lawsuit the man's
>   family has filed. What a slur against every professionally trained
>   police officer who knows the difference between a real gun and a stun
>   gun! And what a cowardly attempt to escape responsibility for the
>   actions of its own under-trained officer.
>
> NOTE: If the write-up doesn't state an outcome for a case, it's probably
>   still pending. Unlike the fantasy world of the urban legend Stella
>   Awards, in real life the courts are so clogged, and "justice" so slow,
>   that it can take many years for a case to conclude. Sorry, but there
>   are no pat endings in the real world. If YOU hear of an update, please
>   DO send us a URL so we can update our readers. Thanks.
>
> TO CONFIRM THE VALIDITY OF THESE CASES, get more information on the True
>   Stella Awards, or sign up for a free e-mail subscription to new cases
>   as they are issued, see http://www.StellaAwards.com/2003.html
>
> Copyright 2004 www.StellaAwards.com . This message may be forwarded as
>   long as it remains complete and unaltered.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23419
From: \"gunner\"" 
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 20:33:59 -0500
Subject: Re: I know all y'all will understand....
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

congratulations to young daniel from a granpa who went through potty
training with two kids and a grand daughter.
"gunner"
-----------------------------------------
"John Paul Vrolyk" <jp@vrolyk.org> wrote in message
news:400D4E80.9D5456F3@vrolyk.org...
> JT wrote:
> > But I'm very happy right now because Daniel successfully did "#2" in
> > his potty!  He's been OK with #1 for a while right now, but this was
> > the first time it wasn't sheer luck that he used his potty for the
> > other one.
>
> Congratulations.
>
> > I can only hope this is the start of the "end" of potty training. ;)
> > Thanks for 'listening', this is the only newsgroup I think I could
> > post this to.... <VBG>
>
> There's no reason you couldn't have posted this on the HF
> in the first place, JT.  (Is there?)
>
> --
> John Paul Vrolyk
> jp@vrolyk.org



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23420
From: \"gunner\"" 
Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2004 20:49:02 -0500
Subject: Re: the new Push to the Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

right in one charlie, all those useful gadgets that didn't even exist as
recently as when i was a freshly married young buck 37 years ago. including
this one i'm using right now and right down to the casio "g-shock" watch on
my wrist that no amount of money could have bought 30 years ago. i've just
started reading "for us the living" and can easily relate to "perry
nelson's" wonder at his new world though i arrived here in the normal way,
by living through the changes. the world we have now was unimaginable to the
10 year old kid i was in 1946.
"gunner"
------------------------------
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:400D29C6.5F6A4177@aol.com...
> And don't forget the spin-offs from all that research and engineering. .
> .
>
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> "Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
> remaining good eye.'"
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23421
From: Lorrita Morgan" 
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:35:23 -0800
Subject: Re: I know all y'all will understand....
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Now I know there's hope for Skye!  These little parenting milestones mean so
much to parents and grandparents.  Please don't be afraid to share them.

Get Daniel some really cool underoos as a reward.  (and to keep the
accidents to a minimum.)

-- 
+=+=+=+=+=+
`rita (aka Grandma version 2.0)

"JT" <JT@REM0VEsff.net> wrote in message
news:k4jr005ha7bkft1pth44f8e0fnrgm817vq@4ax.com...
<snip>
 Well, no, except that I figured if one wanted to discuss the "dirty
> details" of potty-training it was a little more appropriate in
> .discuss.parenting. <G>
>
> But since you brought it up, we're on day three, and (cue song) "I
> think he's got it, I really think he's got it..."  Combined with the
> fact that both kids are over their recent wave of colds and bad dreams
> and I'm actually getting about 7 hours of sleep a night!
> JT
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23422
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 20:38:33 GMT
Subject: Re: Darwins & 2036 Headlines
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

>     Correction noted.  It might work out there, but it would never work
>in this climate.  In the Bahamas and BVI outdoor water pipes are often
>just laid on top of the ground.

  The design of this house horrified my Minnesotan's eye at first. The
incoming water pipes are bare naked outside in front of the house--and
it does freeze here once in a while. I wrapped them with some pipe
insulation right away. Even with that, in the summer, when it's over
100 our tap water is quite warm. 


Deb Houdek Rule
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.robertaheinlein.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
http://www.heinleinprize.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23423
From: JT 
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 15:45:11 -0500
Subject: Re: I know all y'all will understand....
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 10:35:23 -0800, "Lorrita Morgan"
<lorrita_m@hotmail.com> wrote:

>Now I know there's hope for Skye!  These little parenting milestones mean so
>much to parents and grandparents.  Please don't be afraid to share them.
>
>Get Daniel some really cool underoos as a reward.  (and to keep the
>accidents to a minimum.)

Thanks.... it's been five days now, the really big test will be the
first time outside of the house. ;)  

He just got some Harry Potter underwear, his mother's getting to him.
;)  (We'll add it to the Ninja Turtles, Batman, Hulk, Jimmy Neutron
ones he already has.... :)

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23424
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:39:33 -0500
Subject: Voting  Internet
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

As many of you know, I am not exactly a disinterested party in this.
---------------------------------------------------------------
  MAKING VOTES COUNT
The Perils of Online Voting

Published: January 23, 2004


Internet voting has been viewed as a possible cure for some of the ills
that afflict the mechanics of American democracy. Recently, the
technology has seemed to move ahead of any serious consideration of
whether it is actually a good idea to allow home computer owners to
choose a president in the same way they order bath towels online or send
e-mail to their relatives. But now there are grave questions about
whether even the technology makes sense.

Four computer scientists brought in by the Pentagon to analyze a plan
for Internet voting by the military issued a blistering report this
week, concluding that the program should be halted. These four are the
only members of a 10-member advisory committee to issue a report on the
program. Their findings make it clear that the potential for hackers to
steal votes or otherwise subvert elections electronically is too high.
Congress should suspend the program.

The intentions behind the Pentagon's plan, the Secure Electronic
Registration and Voting Experiment, are laudable. Military personnel
overseas, and other Americans abroad, face obstacles to registering and
voting. The new program would ease the way by allowing them to use any
computer hooked up to the Internet. This year, it would be limited to
voters abroad who are from one of 50 counties in seven states, but it
could eventually be used by all of the estimated six million American
voters overseas.

But the advantages of the Pentagon's Internet voting system would be far
outweighed by the dangers it would pose. The report makes it clear that
the possibilities for compromising the secrecy of the ballot, voting
multiple times and carrying out vote theft on a large scale would be
limited only by the imagination and skill of would-be saboteurs. Viruses
could be written that would lodge on voters' computers and change their
votes. Internet service providers, or even foreign governments that
control network access, could interfere with votes before they reached
their destination.

This week's report — which was written by respected scientists,
including Aviel Rubin, an associate professor of computer science at
Johns Hopkins University — is not the first to call Internet voting into
question. A March 2001 study conducted by the Internet Policy Institute
and financed by the National Science Foundation found that Internet
systems like the Pentagon's "pose significant risk to the integrity of
the voting process."

There is every reason to believe that if federal elections can be
tampered with, they will be, particularly when a single hacker, working
alone, might be able to use an online voting system to steal a
presidential election. The authors of this week's report concede that
there is no way of knowing how likely it is that the Pentagon's voting
system would be compromised. What is clear, however, is that until the
vulnerabilities they identified are eliminated, the risks are too great.

Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company

------------------------------------------------------
Believed to be fair use.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23425
From: Kevin Patrick Crowley 
Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2004 13:53:12 -0600
Subject: Re: Voting  Internet
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

What is your system called now?  I seem to remember it was Minerva at 
some point.  I thought your system was based in polling places?

Kevin

Charles Graft wrote:

> As many of you know, I am not exactly a disinterested party in this.
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>   MAKING VOTES COUNT
> The Perils of Online Voting
> 
> Published: January 23, 2004
> 
> 
> Internet voting has been viewed as a possible cure for some of the ills
> that afflict the mechanics of American democracy. Recently, the
> technology has seemed to move ahead of any serious consideration of
> whether it is actually a good idea to allow home computer owners to
> choose a president in the same way they order bath towels online or send
> e-mail to their relatives. But now there are grave questions about
> whether even the technology makes sense.
> 
> Four computer scientists brought in by the Pentagon to analyze a plan
> for Internet voting by the military issued a blistering report this
> week, concluding that the program should be halted. These four are the
> only members of a 10-member advisory committee to issue a report on the
> program. Their findings make it clear that the potential for hackers to
> steal votes or otherwise subvert elections electronically is too high.
> Congress should suspend the program.
> 
> The intentions behind the Pentagon's plan, the Secure Electronic
> Registration and Voting Experiment, are laudable. Military personnel
> overseas, and other Americans abroad, face obstacles to registering and
> voting. The new program would ease the way by allowing them to use any
> computer hooked up to the Internet. This year, it would be limited to
> voters abroad who are from one of 50 counties in seven states, but it
> could eventually be used by all of the estimated six million American
> voters overseas.
> 
> But the advantages of the Pentagon's Internet voting system would be far
> outweighed by the dangers it would pose. The report makes it clear that
> the possibilities for compromising the secrecy of the ballot, voting
> multiple times and carrying out vote theft on a large scale would be
> limited only by the imagination and skill of would-be saboteurs. Viruses
> could be written that would lodge on voters' computers and change their
> votes. Internet service providers, or even foreign governments that
> control network access, could interfere with votes before they reached
> their destination.
> 
> This week's report — which was written by respected scientists,
> including Aviel Rubin, an associate professor of computer science at
> Johns Hopkins University — is not the first to call Internet voting into
> question. A March 2001 study conducted by the Internet Policy Institute
> and financed by the National Science Foundation found that Internet
> systems like the Pentagon's "pose significant risk to the integrity of
> the voting process."
> 
> There is every reason to believe that if federal elections can be
> tampered with, they will be, particularly when a single hacker, working
> alone, might be able to use an online voting system to steal a
> presidential election. The authors of this week's report concede that
> there is no way of knowing how likely it is that the Pentagon's voting
> system would be compromised. What is clear, however, is that until the
> vulnerabilities they identified are eliminated, the risks are too great.
> 
> Copyright 2004 The New York Times Company
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------
> Believed to be fair use.
> 
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
> 
> "Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
> remaining good eye.'"
> 
> 

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23426
From: Jane Davitt 
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 09:19:03 -0500
Subject: MIAHM to be filmed?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This looks interesting...

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-film.html?2004-01/20/13.00.film

Jane
-- 
Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at
http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html
http://www.fanfiction.net/~Jane Davitt


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23427
From: David Wright" 
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:15:34 -0500
Subject: Re: MIAHM to be filmed?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Jane Davitt" <jdavitt01@rogers.com> wrote in message
news:401521d9.0@news.sff.net...
> This looks interesting...
>
> http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-film.html?2004-01/20/13.00.film
>
> Jane
> -- 
> Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at
> http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html
> http://www.fanfiction.net/~Jane Davitt

Good to hear from you Jane. I miss you in the Readers Group Discussions.

I really hope that Minear can do a decent job on TMIAHM and get it onto the
screen. The best adaptation, IMHO, that I have seen of RAH's works on the
big screen was _The Puppet Masters_ and it really didn't have the feel of
the book. I have my doubts that anyone will be able to really do a good job,
but quoting a number of RAH's characters, "At least they can *try*".
-- 
David Wright
The Beginning of a New Year
Now is the time to join The Heinlein Society
http://heinleinsociety.org/join.html
Benefit The Heinlein Society by ordering books thru:
http://home.alltel.net/dwrighsr/heinlein-amazon.htm


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23428
From: JT 
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:38:08 -0500
Subject: Re: MIAHM to be filmed?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:15:34 -0500, "David Wright"
<dwrighsr@alltel.net> wrote:
>I really hope that Minear can do a decent job on TMIAHM and get it onto the
>screen. The best adaptation, IMHO, that I have seen of RAH's works on the
>big screen was _The Puppet Masters_ and it really didn't have the feel of
>the book. I have my doubts that anyone will be able to really do a good job,
>but quoting a number of RAH's characters, "At least they can *try*".

He's certainly saying the right things.  But you can't trust that the
first writer's take will be the one that gets filmed.... sigh. 

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23429
From: JT 
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:41:14 -0500
Subject: Eastern snow
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

We got around 6 inches.  Work was delayed two hours, but I decided to
forget about it today.  I would probably have left early anyway
because freezing rain's supposed to start this afternoon/evening, so
what's a few hours when no one with school-age kids will be there....
<G>

How are the rest of you making out?  My wonderful neighbor with the
snowblower did the road in front of our house and our sidewalk, so I
had a lot less shoveling to do!

JT



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23430
From: David Wright" 
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 11:05:42 -0500
Subject: Re: MIAHM to be filmed?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"JT" <JT@REM0VEsff.net> wrote in message
news:ctca10dacgfelvfc6js2n5nn0c162oasb4@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 10:15:34 -0500, "David Wright"
> <dwrighsr@alltel.net> wrote:
> >I really hope that Minear can do a decent job on TMIAHM and get it onto
the
> >screen. The best adaptation, IMHO, that I have seen of RAH's works on the
> >big screen was _The Puppet Masters_ and it really didn't have the feel of
> >the book. I have my doubts that anyone will be able to really do a good
job,
> >but quoting a number of RAH's characters, "At least they can *try*".
>
> He's certainly saying the right things.  But you can't trust that the
> first writer's take will be the one that gets filmed.... sigh.
>
Yeah, That's what I meant by 'getting it onto the screen'.
They'll probably put in a bunch of slaves singing 'Ol Man Luna' hauling the
wheat to the loading site and show Mannie's family as a harem [ugh]. :-)
-- 
David Wright
The Beginning of a New Year
Now is the time to join The Heinlein Society
http://heinleinsociety.org/join.html
Benefit The Heinlein Society by ordering books thru:
http://home.alltel.net/dwrighsr/heinlein-amazon.htm


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23431
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 14:18:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Eastern snow
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

It's all freezing rain here in SC. We drove home from Charleston 
yesterday in it, which was bad enough. Classes were cancelled today at 
the university, and the inch plus of ice on our road means we're not 
going anywhere. Fortunately, the power is on.

A colleague called this morning to see if classes were cancelled. She 
and her husband had been out of town this weekend and ended up in a 
mulit-car wreck on the way home. I advised her against renting a car and 
trying to get back today.

-- 
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23432
From: Jane Davitt 
Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2004 16:22:25 -0500
Subject: Re: MIAHM to be filmed?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

David Wright wrote:

> 
> 
> Good to hear from you Jane. I miss you in the Readers Group Discussions.
> 
> I really hope that Minear can do a decent job on TMIAHM and get it onto the
> screen. The best adaptation, IMHO, that I have seen of RAH's works on the
> big screen was _The Puppet Masters_ and it really didn't have the feel of
> the book. I have my doubts that anyone will be able to really do a good job,
> but quoting a number of RAH's characters, "At least they can *try*".
  Hi David! Miss you all too but snowed under with writing and such; not 
enough hours in the day...

PM wasn't too bad so decent adaptations can be done and Minear has done 
excellent work on Angel so fingers crossed.

Jane

-- 
Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at
http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html
http://www.fanfiction.net/~Jane Davitt


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