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Archive of:   sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by:  webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Wed, 12 Nov 2003 14:59:37
============================================================

Article 22864
From: gunner" 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:32:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

thanks david, for a very timely warning! just after reading your post,
within 5 minutes, i got a pile of those too, with the same title and varying
"microsoft" sender names. (no, i don't think you had anything to do with
it!) i deleted them forthwith and deleted them again from the "deleted
items" file. if you ever find yourself up in vermont stop by for a shot of
tullamore dew from the neverending bottle i swindled from a leprechaun.
"gunner"
-------------------------------------
"David Wright" <dwrighsr@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:3f6a5164.0@news.sff.net...
> There is a possible virus which appears to be very prolific. I have
received
> 13 of these today.
>
> They appear as a "September 2003 Cumulative Patch" update from
Microsoft.com
> and contains a very real looking page purporting to be from microsoft and
> there is a ".exe" attachment. Each of these that came in had the same
> visible page with an attachment with with the identical message, but with
> different names on the .exe file, but had the same size (106)kb.
>
> Sometimes the From name was recognizably Microsoft, but other times it was
> garbaged up. I did *not* open or execute any of these and I do not
recommend
> that anyone do so. As far as I know, Microsoft never sends out e-mails
with
> patches but relies on their web site for all updates.
>
> This appears to be a variant of the Swen virus. but my Norton did *not*
> recognize it as a virus, however. It appears to be either a brand new one
on
> the same lines or an unrecognized variant of the old one.
>
> David Wright
>
>
>
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22865
From: gunner" 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:52:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

jt, you're included in that invitation too, all told i got 93 of those phony
messages and deleted them all. i never open .exe files unless i know and
trust the source but the reminder kept me from getting caught napping.
"gunner"
-------------------------
"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:e5mkmvcatebl56j5n0ceb597qdvi38l40n@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:44:16 -0400, "David Wright"
> <dwrighsr@alltel.net> wrote:
>
> >There is a possible virus which appears to be very prolific. I have
received
> >13 of these today.
> >
> Yes, it's severely impacting mail systems including SFF Net's.  You
> are correct in that MicroSoft would never email a patch out.  The only
> reliable place to get a MS patch is from MicroSoft's "Windows Update"
> website (or your friendly work network admin ;)
>
> JT
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22866
From: John Paul Vrolyk 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:02:21 -0700
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Kevin Patrick Crowley wrote:
> Without a theological framework in which to construct it humans can not
> make any ethical/moral code that does not equate to ME SURVIVE.  Any
> attempt to create an ethical/moral code that does not take into account
> a higher moral authority will only result in a code that is either
> wholly darwinian or a COPY, with the serial #'s filed off, of other
> ethical/moral codes that are derived from religous thought.

There you have it folks (and some of you have known all
along):  atheists have no morals.

Actually, though, I think you're quite mistaken, and there has been,
is, and will continue to be many ethical codes that don't depend on a
"higher moral authority".

As one simple example, it's pretty easy to see the pragmatic benefit
to people in general if we all refrain from randomly murdering others.
Shazam!  Instant moral code, no god required.  And a pretty common
one, too, I think.  Killing certain people under certain circumstances
has certainly been considered moral by most (all?) societies, but I
can't think of any that condoned the killing of anyone for no
reason at all.

> > the fact that I'm
> > much more terrified of Mr Ashcroft than of any terrorist.

> Worldwide deaths at the hands of terrorists is well in excess of 10,000
> over the past decade.  How many have died at the hands of Mr. Ashcroft?

Hard to tell, isn't it?  The thing with secret military tribunals is,
well, they're secret.  But the death toll of police states in general
over the last century is many millions.

It's not so much what Mr. Ashcroft is doing today that I directly fear
(although I fear that, too), but rather the road we're heading down,
the direction he's pushing us.

> C'mon Fader I expected better reasoning from you.  What reasonable
> evidence could you cite that would show you or any non-terrorist group
> of us is in greater danger from Ashcroft than a terrorist?

Associated Press headline:  "New Terror Laws Used Vs. Common Criminals".
Sneak-and-peak warrants.  "Administrative" warrants (bypassing the
judicial system).  Vastly expanded asset forfeiture.  People being
held captive indefinately without charges filed, a trial, legal
representation.  1-800 snitch-on-your-neighbor lines.  Libraries forced
to report on what patrons read.  This stuff doesn't scare you?

As for "any of us", I for one am not an American citizen.

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22867
From: John Paul Vrolyk 
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:18:10 -0700
Subject: Re: A Wesley we might like ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader wrote:
> I kinda like this one tho, saw him on Bill Maher last week, & he
> sounds kinda libertarian. So wadda all think. & who should be his
> running mate? I've got a wild idea, but I'll save it for now.

Wesley Clark?  Kinda libertarian?  This is the same guy who said:

"We've had a principle in this government for almost 100 years of
progressive taxation. We believed in some degree of redistribution
of income to insure everybody had a certain safety net under them,
a certain equality of opportunities. Government has a legitimate
role in doing this."

"...people who like assault weapons should join the United States Army,
we have them."

"I believe in fair trade, not free trade."

"I don't favor decriminalizing the use of marijuana."

"I'm in favor of the principle of affirmative action."

Quotes found at:
	http://www.ontheissues.org/Wesley_Clark.htm

I'm sorry, but this guy sure doesn't sound liberatarian to me.

Actually I have a very hard time imaging even a moderate libertarian
being capable of being a serious contender for the presidential
nomination of either the Democrats or the Republicans.  We may like
to think that libertarianism matches the ideals that this country
was founded on, but the sad fact is that most people in America
today don't share those ideals.  There are still plenty, but they're
vastly outnumbered.  (I saw a Zogby poll that put the contingent
of libertarian-leaning at 16% of the population...but only 1%
thought of themselves as "libertarian".)

On a brighter note, the Free State Project has already signed up
over 5000 people, more than a year ahead of schedule, and voting
is currently taking place on to which state they'll move, with
results on October 1.  I think Wyoming and New Hampshire are
considered the top contenders.

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22868
Article no longer available
------------------------------------------------------------

Article 22869
From: postmaster@sff.net
Date: 13 Sep 2003 20:59:39 GMT
Subject: No articles presently in newsgroup.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This newsgroup has no articles yet; however, if
you were to post something, it would.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22870
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 06:54:48 GMT
Subject: Re: "Squalls out on the Gulf Stream...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>Another piece of evidence for  "the not while at work Heinlein Forum" 
>Theory.

  I sometimes read the Heinlein Forum at work, but don't post from
there.


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.robertaheinlein.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
http://www.heinleinsociety.org


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22871
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:57:41 -0700
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Kevin Patrick Crowley wrote:
> Interspersed
<snip>
> Without a theological framework in which to construct it humans can
> not make any ethical/moral code that does not equate to ME SURVIVE.
> Any attempt to create an ethical/moral code that does not take into
> account a higher moral authority will only result in a code that is
> either wholly darwinian or a COPY, with the serial #'s filed off, of
> other ethical/moral codes that are derived from religous thought.

Define "wholly darwinian". If I create a moral code that says that there is
first level morality (I survive), second level morality (my family
survives), third level morality (my "tribe", or those people who are my
friends and associates survive), fourth level morality (my county survives),
and fifth level morality (my race survives), would this be "wholly
darwinian"? If so, in what way is this inferior to religion-based moral
codes?

Second, you are making an assumption, as a believer. Just because the "wise
man" is the shaman of the tribe and the rule keeper doesn't mean that his
two duties were always the same. How do you know that the "Judeo-Christian
moral code", for example, didn't start as a non-religious moral base, and
was adopted by the religious? Many of the most basic religions consist of
rules to not offend the spirits, and those rules often have very little to
do with "morality". For all you know, those moral codes started with things
like, "How do I stop these killings over women/food/gold? Everybody ignores
me. Hmm. Wait a minute. Didn't Jongo, that man who killed Ookla and who
steals food, get killed by the coughing sickess? OK, everyone, listen up. If
you don't stop killing each other and stealing food, the spirits will get
you! Look what happened to Jongo!"

<snip>
> Worldwide deaths at the hands of terrorists is well in excess of
> 10,000 over the past decade.  How many have died at the hands of Mr.
> Ashcroft? C'mon Fader I expected better reasoning from you.  What
> reasonable evidence could you cite that would show you or any
> non-terrorist group of us is in greater danger from Ashcroft than a
> terrorist?  I keep tabs on many of the sites that hate Ashcroft and
> always the United States and I have not seen yet one instance in
> which your premise would not fall readily before Mister Occam and his
> barber.

Sorry, but I agree with Fader. If a man was the leader of an anti-US,
pro-terrorism group, would the fact that he and his followers hadn't killed
anyone _yet_ be evidence that he wasn't dangerous? Governments that want to
take away your rights, for any reason, are more dangerous than terrorists.

Besides, I could argue that the government of the United States has killed a
lot more people than terrorists in the past 15 years, if you wanted to go
that route.


-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22872
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:00:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I opened my email today to find 279 of these things.

Unfortunately, Norton *is* catching it for me, which means each and 
every one of these messages brings up a little window telling me that 
Norton deleted the attachment. I can't find a way to turn this automatic 
notification off.

-- 
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22873
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:10:56 GMT
Subject: Re: "Squalls out on the Gulf Stream...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

> Although Fader's recent religion
>comments may inspire a bit more commentary.... <G>
>
I try to be inspiring<g>

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22874
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:19:16 GMT
Subject: Re: A Wesley we might like ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

>Wesley Clark?  Kinda libertarian?  This is the same guy who said:
>
<snipped bigtime>


Sorry, I only heard him the once on Maher, & thats how he sounded that
night. Other than that, I know almost nothing about him, I think that
I'll pay more attention about what he what he says & does from here.
He may revise some of those positions as he matures in the political
arena.

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22875
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:27:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Filksinger:
    Thank you for throwing some light on this issue.

Ed J

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 00:57:41 -0700, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:

>Kevin Patrick Crowley wrote:
>> Interspersed
><snip>
>> Without a theological framework in which to construct it humans can
>> not make any ethical/moral code that does not equate to ME SURVIVE.
>> Any attempt to create an ethical/moral code that does not take into
>> account a higher moral authority will only result in a code that is
>> either wholly darwinian or a COPY, with the serial #'s filed off, of
>> other ethical/moral codes that are derived from religous thought.
>
>Define "wholly darwinian". If I create a moral code that says that there is
>first level morality (I survive), second level morality (my family
>survives), third level morality (my "tribe", or those people who are my
>friends and associates survive), fourth level morality (my county survives),
>and fifth level morality (my race survives), would this be "wholly
>darwinian"? If so, in what way is this inferior to religion-based moral
>codes?
>
>Second, you are making an assumption, as a believer. Just because the "wise
>man" is the shaman of the tribe and the rule keeper doesn't mean that his
>two duties were always the same. How do you know that the "Judeo-Christian
>moral code", for example, didn't start as a non-religious moral base, and
>was adopted by the religious? Many of the most basic religions consist of
>rules to not offend the spirits, and those rules often have very little to
>do with "morality". For all you know, those moral codes started with things
>like, "How do I stop these killings over women/food/gold? Everybody ignores
>me. Hmm. Wait a minute. Didn't Jongo, that man who killed Ookla and who
>steals food, get killed by the coughing sickess? OK, everyone, listen up. If
>you don't stop killing each other and stealing food, the spirits will get
>you! Look what happened to Jongo!"
>
><snip>
>> Worldwide deaths at the hands of terrorists is well in excess of
>> 10,000 over the past decade.  How many have died at the hands of Mr.
>> Ashcroft? C'mon Fader I expected better reasoning from you.  What
>> reasonable evidence could you cite that would show you or any
>> non-terrorist group of us is in greater danger from Ashcroft than a
>> terrorist?  I keep tabs on many of the sites that hate Ashcroft and
>> always the United States and I have not seen yet one instance in
>> which your premise would not fall readily before Mister Occam and his
>> barber.
>
>Sorry, but I agree with Fader. If a man was the leader of an anti-US,
>pro-terrorism group, would the fact that he and his followers hadn't killed
>anyone _yet_ be evidence that he wasn't dangerous? Governments that want to
>take away your rights, for any reason, are more dangerous than terrorists.
>
>Besides, I could argue that the government of the United States has killed a
>lot more people than terrorists in the past 15 years, if you wanted to go
>that route.


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22876
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:36:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT:       
>    (or your friendly work network admin ;)
  Or an agent of your friendly work network admin (I'm a volunteer
at a local charitable organization) can run around to 60 PCs and
install the latest Windows critical updates on each.
   This place still has way too many old Windows98 and Win98SE
machines.  The W2k PCs can be set to automatically go out to the MS
website and perform a self-update.
   It's a boring job, but someone had to do it.

Ed J

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:17:48 -0400, JT <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote:

>On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 20:44:16 -0400, "David Wright"
><dwrighsr@alltel.net> wrote:
>
>>There is a possible virus which appears to be very prolific. I have received
>>13 of these today.
>>
>Yes, it's severely impacting mail systems including SFF Net's.  You
>are correct in that MicroSoft would never email a patch out.  The only
>reliable place to get a MS patch is from MicroSoft's "Windows Update"
>website (or your friendly work network admin ;)
>
>JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22877
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:43:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Eli:   Within the Norton AV program try to find an "Options"
selection from within a drop-down menu (? Tools -  Options?)
   There may even be a wizard to step you through the process.
Hopefully, you will find an option to "Clean infected files,
quarantine if unable to clean"  rather than "Clean and notify".
   I don't have Norton AV in front of me as I write this, but most
major AntiVirus programs have something similar to this.  For Norton
I believe that this is under "Configure".

Ed J


On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 04:00:52 -0400, Eli Hestermann
<ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:

>I opened my email today to find 279 of these things.
>
>Unfortunately, Norton *is* catching it for me, which means each and 
>every one of these messages brings up a little window telling me that 
>Norton deleted the attachment. I can't find a way to turn this automatic 
>notification off.


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22878
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:45:36 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:29:43 -0500, Kevin Patrick Crowley
<kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com> wrote:

>> 
>Without a theological framework in which to construct it humans can not 
>make any ethical/moral code that does not equate to ME SURVIVE.  Any 
>attempt to create an ethical/moral code that does not take into account 
>a higher moral authority will only result in a code that is either 
>wholly darwinian or a COPY, with the serial #'s filed off, of other 
>ethical/moral codes that are derived from religous thought.
>
I'm not sure thyat this is the case, even with an unevolved person, it
seems to be somewhat short-sighted. Given that the reproductive
impteus[sp?] is pretty much a given it seems that we are already
beyond the "ME SURVIVE" ethic. We want to carry on beyond ourselves, I
don't think that a code that insures some larger concept of survival
that much of a stretch. 

Being realistic, a moral/ethical code would have to have some amount
of Darwinism in it, also apparently, I may have not expressed myself
clearly enough on the matter of religion. I am not against religious
thought per say, there are many that have some very good & sound
principles. (how well they're followed by the various flavors is a
different discussion) What I think is that once said religious theory
is used as the basis for an organization, things really start to go
downhil, & the survival/continuation/supremacy of the organization
slowly (sometimes not so slowly) becomes more important than the
original principles themselves. IMHO, we need to do away with the
organizational aspects, not necessarily the spiritual thought behind
them. I kinda see it as the original, "let's all huddle" mentality,
which I think we will evolve beyond. 

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22879
From: David Wright" 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:50:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"gunner" <gunnera4@sover.net> wrote in message
news:3f6a8ae4.0@news.sff.net...
> thanks david, for a very timely warning! just after reading your post,
> within 5 minutes, i got a pile of those too, with the same title and
varying
> "microsoft" sender names. (no, i don't think you had anything to do with
> it!) i deleted them forthwith and deleted them again from the "deleted
> items" file. if you ever find yourself up in vermont stop by for a shot of
> tullamore dew from the neverending bottle i swindled from a leprechaun.
> "gunner"

I may just possibly get to Vermont one day, if a long shot occurs. My son is
finishing his Ph.D. and has applied for a job at Middlebury.
-- 
David Wright

Join us at the next Heinlein Readers Group, Saturday  at 5:00 P.M. EDT
Topic is "Heinlein's Heroines". Who is your favorite/least favorite?
See: http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/AIM_09-18-2003.html
for alt.fan.heinlein pre-chat discussions

See http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info for instructions



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22880
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:59:58 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 22:02:21 -0700, John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
wrote:

>Kevin Patrick Crowley wrote:
>> Without a theological framework in which to construct it humans can not
>> make any ethical/moral code that does not equate to ME SURVIVE.  Any
>> attempt to create an ethical/moral code that does not take into account
>> a higher moral authority will only result in a code that is either
>> wholly darwinian or a COPY, with the serial #'s filed off, of other
>> ethical/moral codes that are derived from religous thought.
>
>There you have it folks (and some of you have known all
>along):  atheists have no morals.
>
>Actually, though, I think you're quite mistaken, and there has been,
>is, and will continue to be many ethical codes that don't depend on a
>"higher moral authority".
>
>As one simple example, it's pretty easy to see the pragmatic benefit
>to people in general if we all refrain from randomly murdering others.
>Shazam!  Instant moral code, no god required.  And a pretty common
>one, too, I think.  Killing certain people under certain circumstances
>has certainly been considered moral by most (all?) societies, but I
>can't think of any that condoned the killing of anyone for no
>reason at all.
>

enlighted self-intrest, is a good place to start, & I think we may
actually get there.
(virtual loolipop for the name of author who used/mde-up this term,
another if you get the book/series)

Fader
(snipped the rest, hadn't read what JP responded to, but it looked
good<g>)



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22881
From: David Wright" 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:55:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote in message
news:06ulmvsm058k3gj5s2olord28ajlanes31@4ax.com...
> Eli:   Within the Norton AV program try to find an "Options"
> selection from within a drop-down menu (? Tools -  Options?)
>    There may even be a wizard to step you through the process.
> Hopefully, you will find an option to "Clean infected files,
> quarantine if unable to clean"  rather than "Clean and notify".
>    I don't have Norton AV in front of me as I write this, but most
> major AntiVirus programs have something similar to this.  For Norton
> I believe that this is under "Configure".
>
> Ed J
>
>
>
What bothers me most is how my Norton didn't recognize it, since supposedly
it is a variant of a known one. Other people are saying that their Norton
did recognize. Any I checked through all of the symptoms listed at the
following and download the very latest update files and am waiting to see if
they will catch it. Apparently, the 'Live Update' files are only released
once a week, the last time being two days ago, so maybe that would account
for it.

http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.swen.a@mm.html
-- 
David Wright

Join us at the next Heinlein Readers Group, Saturday  at 5:00 P.M. EDT
Topic is "Heinlein's Heroines". Who is your favorite/least favorite?
See: http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/AIM_09-18-2003.html
for alt.fan.heinlein pre-chat discussions

See http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info for instructions




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22882
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:22:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:29:43 -0500, Kevin Patrick Crowley
<kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com> wrote:


>Worldwide deaths at the hands of terrorists is well in excess of 10,000 
>over the past decade.  How many have died at the hands of Mr. Ashcroft?
>C'mon Fader I expected better reasoning from you.  What reasonable 
>evidence could you cite that would show you or any non-terrorist group 
>of us is in greater danger from Ashcroft than a terrorist?  I keep tabs 
>on many of the sites that hate Ashcroft and always the United States and 
>I have not seen yet one instance in which your premise would not fall 
>readily before Mister Occam and his barber.

Okay, well I had started to read it then forgot while I was responding
to the first part (see, there's that speed thing, I was talking
about<g>)

Anyhoo, what JohnPaul & Filk both said, & also I didn't say that
Ashcroft was a Terrorist, said I was more scared of him than them,
fear being a personal thing I'm allowed to be if I want, & doesn't
really need to be rational/demonstratable. I'll go with my gut, it's
gotten me out of a lot of jams, (real oldtimers will remember I was
Zeb a lifetime ago, there's that litle tingle on the back of my neck)
& it tells me that Ashcroft is bad news, now, the immediate future, &
really bad for the long term future.

There's two things here, first I'm the type that they will come for
eventually, (the only reason I wouldn't be one of the first is that
I'm not important enough, [thank the deity] & like Slippery Jim, I try
to keep a low profile [in fact, I do it better, since I don't go
around shooting off guns and such]<g>) & second by my own reasoning &
as I said, if I'm right then the terrorist problem will take care of
itself, I have no such assureness with Ashcroft & his ilk.

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22883
From: John Paul Vrolyk 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:16:15 -0700
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Kevin Patrick Crowley wrote:
> Without a theological framework in which to construct it humans can not
> make any ethical/moral code that does not equate to ME SURVIVE.  Any
> attempt to create an ethical/moral code that does not take into account
> a higher moral authority will only result in a code that is either
> wholly darwinian or a COPY, with the serial #'s filed off, of other
> ethical/moral codes that are derived from religous thought.

I thought of a better counter-example:
  Confucianism.

Is it a religion?  Some people characterize it as such, while
others simple call it an "ethical tradition", since it lacks
the usual "theological" trappings:  no gods or demons, no
reincarnation or other afterlife.  Yet it has a highly developed
ethical/moral code, detailing how one should structure one's
relationships to one's family, friends, people over and under
you in authority, etc., and a general priciple that translates
as "humaneness" or "gentlemanlyness".  All this without a
"highter moral authority".

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22884
From: John Paul Vrolyk 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:17:29 -0700
Subject: Re: "Squalls out on the Gulf Stream...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
>   I sometimes read the Heinlein Forum at work, but don't post from
> there.

Yes, me too.

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22885
From: JT 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:24:29 -0400
Subject: Re: "Squalls out on the Gulf Stream...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 21:22:41 -0700, John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
wrote:

>"William J. Keaton" wrote:
>> If Les is lurking, I hope your parents are staying safe in
>> Virginia Beach, they will feel some serious hurricane winds.
>
>Les isn't, but I am.  :-)
>
>As of about 9:30pm Eastern time, they'd seen some high winds,
>but nothing damaging or dangerous.  Their power'd been off
>for several hours already, though.

Glad to hear it.  We just have a lot of leaves & branches down.  Some
power out in the area, but not us.  

Wind & Rain weren't really that bad last night, we were spared the
worst by far.

Of course, we live far enough away from the beautiful "waterfront"
property that is now water-full property that I was never worried
about flooding anyway.

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22886
From: JT 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:32:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:36:27 -0400, Ed Johnson
<eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:

>JT:       
>>    (or your friendly work network admin ;)
>  Or an agent of your friendly work network admin (I'm a volunteer
>at a local charitable organization) can run around to 60 PCs and
>install the latest Windows critical updates on each.

Well, even if you're not getting paid you're the still "tech guy", Ed.
;)

The important thing is that an extremely trusted source got the files
from MS directly.

We are going through a new phase of stringent patch management at work
because Blaster and its follow-on really did a number on our internal
network.  Now they are all listening to me a little more. ;)

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22887
From: David Wright" 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:08:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:9m4mmvoh1voa2929v8ettp81199m1laesp@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:36:27 -0400, Ed Johnson
> <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:
>
> >JT:
> >>    (or your friendly work network admin ;)
> >  Or an agent of your friendly work network admin (I'm a volunteer
> >at a local charitable organization) can run around to 60 PCs and
> >install the latest Windows critical updates on each.
>
> Well, even if you're not getting paid you're the still "tech guy", Ed.
> ;)
>
> The important thing is that an extremely trusted source got the files
> from MS directly.
>
> We are going through a new phase of stringent patch management at work
> because Blaster and its follow-on really did a number on our internal
> network.  Now they are all listening to me a little more. ;)
>
> JT

Fortunately, we have firewalls at the state level which governs all of the
e-mail coming into us from the outside with virus catchers in place, so that
none can get in that way. Unfortunately, a lot of people also have outside
e-mail accounts which can let them in anyway past the firewalls and once in,
even our e-mail system can pass them on.
-- 
David Wright

Join us at the next Heinlein Readers Group, Saturday  at 5:00 P.M. EDT
Topic is "Heinlein's Heroines". Who is your favorite/least favorite?
See Log of Thursday's discussion:
http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/AIM_09-18-2003.html
and alt.fan.heinlein pre-chat discussions

See http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info for instructions



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22888
From: Kevin Patrick Crowley 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:29:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Interspersed
Fader wrote:

> 
> I'm not sure thyat this is the case, even with an unevolved person, it

We are going to have to go back to basics.  What are your terms?  Or 
more specifically what in the bloody blue blazes is an (un)evolved 
person?  A cockroach is evolved. A paramecium is evolved.  If they are 
not evolved they were created.  Man was created then and you have just 
admitted that something created Man out whole cloth.  Interesting 
repercussions.
> seems to be somewhat short-sighted. Given that the reproductive
> impteus[sp?] is pretty much a given it seems that we are already
> beyond the "ME SURVIVE" ethic. 

What was the mechanism by which this happened?

>We want to carry on beyond ourselves, I
> don't think that a code that insures some larger concept of survival
> that much of a stretch. 
> 
> Being realistic, a moral/ethical code would have to have some amount
> of Darwinism in it, also apparently, I may have not expressed myself
> clearly enough on the matter of religion. I am not against religious
> thought per say, there are many that have some very good & sound
> principles. 

Never thought you were and would not want you to think that I thought 
so.  In fact you had statements that would imply religion is a good 
thing or at least not a bad thing.  My argument was about not being able
separate morality from religion.  Aside to Paul: Never ever imply that I 
think that Atheists are without morals.  I have dear friends who are 
highly moral and atheist.  As I have argued with them and most have come 
to this view also that their moral code is derivative.  Several are 
struggling with this and have of yet not constructed a moral code that 
can not be shown to be derivative of religion.  If you ever make that 
sort of implication toward me or even somewhat in my direction again I 
will challenge you. Personally!
>(how well they're followed by the various flavors is a
> different discussion) What I think is that once said religious theory
> is used as the basis for an organization, things really start to go
> downhil, & the survival/continuation/supremacy of the organization
> slowly (sometimes not so slowly) becomes more important than the
> original principles themselves.

Fader you could say that about any organization.  You just described a 
bureaucracy AND IT'S INHABITANTS.

> IMHO, we need to do away with the
> organizational aspects, not necessarily the spiritual thought behind
> them. I kinda see it as the original, "let's all huddle" mentality,
> which I think we will evolve beyond.

That let's all huddle instinct is how humans rescue each from disasters 
and to help us feel safe in an unsafe world.  Family, friends, that kind 
neighbor you've never spoken to but wave at a few times a week. Who do 
you try to rescue in a disaster.  Even the supremely independent can and 
do benefit from these huddled masses.  Or do you have a new collosus to 
put forth?

> 
> Fader

On to the next post.

Kevin


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22889
From: Kevin Patrick Crowley 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:42:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Interspersed
Fader wrote:


> 
> Okay, well I had started to read it then forgot while I was responding
> to the first part (see, there's that speed thing, I was talking
> about<g>)
> 
> Anyhoo, what JohnPaul & Filk both said, & also I didn't say that
> Ashcroft was a Terrorist,

I didn't say that you said that Ashcroft was a terrorist.  I challenged 
your fear of him in terms of demonstrable risk.

>said I was more scared of him than them,
> fear being a personal thing I'm allowed to be if I want, & doesn't
> really need to be rational/demonstratable. 

My grand-daughter is terrified of spiders.  She is not afraid of heavy 
traffic.  Do you see the analogy?

>I'll go with my gut, it's
> gotten me out of a lot of jams, (real oldtimers will remember I was
> Zeb a lifetime ago, there's that litle tingle on the back of my neck)
> & it tells me that Ashcroft is bad news, now, the immediate future, &
> really bad for the long term future.

I'll grant you the feeling but that still doesn't doesn't feed the logic 
  of your argument.

> 
> There's two things here, first I'm the type that they will come for
> eventually, (the only reason I wouldn't be one of the first is that

Fader, why would you be one of the ones.  I need a real world cite on 
this or it is just paranoia.  Sorry, unless you have coventry and the 
USA confused Fader is in little danger.

> I'm not important enough, [thank the deity] & like Slippery Jim, I try
> to keep a low profile [in fact, I do it better, since I don't go
> around shooting off guns and such]<g>) & second by my own reasoning &
> as I said, if I'm right then the terrorist problem will take care of
> itself,

How?

>I have no such assureness with Ashcroft & his ilk.
>


You have assureness about terrorists going away but not Ahcroft and his 
ilk?  Again, HOW!!!
> Fader

Kevin


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22890
From: Kevin Patrick Crowley 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:46:09 -0500
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

John Paul Vrolyk wrote:

> Kevin Patrick Crowley wrote:
> 
>>Without a theological framework in which to construct it humans can not
>>make any ethical/moral code that does not equate to ME SURVIVE.  Any
>>attempt to create an ethical/moral code that does not take into account
>>a higher moral authority will only result in a code that is either
>>wholly darwinian or a COPY, with the serial #'s filed off, of other
>>ethical/moral codes that are derived from religous thought.
> 
> 
> I thought of a better counter-example:
>   Confucianism.
> 
> Is it a religion?  Some people characterize it as such, while
> others simple call it an "ethical tradition", since it lacks
> the usual "theological" trappings:  no gods or demons, no
> reincarnation or other afterlife.  Yet it has a highly developed
> ethical/moral code, detailing how one should structure one's
> relationships to one's family, friends, people over and under
> you in authority, etc., and a general priciple that translates
> as "humaneness" or "gentlemanlyness".  All this without a
> "highter moral authority".
> 

Confucianism is ancestor worship.  Don't see your point.  Will not be 
answering any other posts of yours.

I apologize for only using your middle name.

Kevin



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22891
From: JT 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 13:38:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:08:20 -0400, "David Wright"
<dwrighsr@alltel.net> wrote:
>> We are going through a new phase of stringent patch management at work
>> because Blaster and its follow-on really did a number on our internal
>> network.  Now they are all listening to me a little more. ;)
>>
>> JT
>
>Fortunately, we have firewalls at the state level which governs all of the
>e-mail coming into us from the outside with virus catchers in place, so that
>none can get in that way. Unfortunately, a lot of people also have outside
>e-mail accounts which can let them in anyway past the firewalls and once in,
>even our e-mail system can pass them on.

That's why Blaster & Nachi were so bad... they work over RPC, not by
email transmission.  Our email's been pretty good for a few years now;
our patch management overall on the Windows OS had been lagging.  With
over 100,000 workstations, there is stringent change control (and a
corresponding agonizing process to introduce change) to the OS.

My area is only concerned with about 3,000 machines--but that is the
majority of R&D where I work, and the configurations are not as
tightly held overall. 

Our biggest problem was our laptops, which are basically an extranet.
They were infected immediately with Blaster & then passed it
internally, and we've been playing catchup ever since.

Sigh....

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22892
From: Kevin Patrick Crowley 
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 15:50:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT,
Here at MSOE we managed to survive blaster fairly well.  4,000 student 
laptops and only 200 had to be re-imaged.  Standard policy here you let 
your system get trashed we re-image it.  Of course 1,400 are computer 
and software engineers and your system gets scanned everytime you logon 
to do something that requires the license server.  Crude but it works.

Kevin
JT wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 11:08:20 -0400, "David Wright"
> <dwrighsr@alltel.net> wrote:
> 
>>>We are going through a new phase of stringent patch management at work
>>>because Blaster and its follow-on really did a number on our internal
>>>network.  Now they are all listening to me a little more. ;)
>>>
>>>JT
>>
>>Fortunately, we have firewalls at the state level which governs all of the
>>e-mail coming into us from the outside with virus catchers in place, so that
>>none can get in that way. Unfortunately, a lot of people also have outside
>>e-mail accounts which can let them in anyway past the firewalls and once in,
>>even our e-mail system can pass them on.
> 
> 
> That's why Blaster & Nachi were so bad... they work over RPC, not by
> email transmission.  Our email's been pretty good for a few years now;
> our patch management overall on the Windows OS had been lagging.  With
> over 100,000 workstations, there is stringent change control (and a
> corresponding agonizing process to introduce change) to the OS.
> 
> My area is only concerned with about 3,000 machines--but that is the
> majority of R&D where I work, and the configurations are not as
> tightly held overall. 
> 
> Our biggest problem was our laptops, which are basically an extranet.
> They were infected immediately with Blaster & then passed it
> internally, and we've been playing catchup ever since.
> 
> Sigh....
> 
> JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22893
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 02:33:47 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:29:54 -0500, Kevin Patrick Crowley
<kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com> wrote:

SNIP
>Or 
>more specifically what in the bloody blue blazes is an (un)evolved 
>person?  A cockroach is evolved. A paramecium is evolved.  

Evolved as I used it in the sense of how I used it in the original
post, beyond the need for religion. 

Let's not have this devolve into a semantics/nit-picking thing,
honestly did you really not know what I was referring to? If true,
then just ask, don't  make arguements about things having nothing to
do with the discussion. I'd really rather you start your own thread if
you want to discuss wha's evolved mean, cockroaches, & paramecium
(what is the) 

>> seems to be somewhat short-sighted. Given that the reproductive
>> impteus[sp?] is pretty much a given it seems that we are already
>> beyond the "ME SURVIVE" ethic. 
>
>What was the mechanism by which this happened?

Not sure what the question is here, are you denying a reproductive
impeteus, reproducing is counter-productive to a strictly "ME SURVIVE"
ethic. (why some eat their young, tastiness aside) 
>
> Aside to Paul: Never ever imply that I 
>think that Atheists are without morals.  If you ever make that 
>sort of implication toward me or even somewhat in my direction again I 
>will challenge you. Personally!

He prefers JohnPaul, & I would reconsider this one, it's a bad idea, I
wouldn't steer you wrong.

>Fader you could say that about any organization.  You just described a 
>bureaucracy AND IT'S INHABITANTS.

Yes, which is what happens when you organize spiritual thought/beliefs
into a system & make an organization out of it. IMHO, spiritual belief
is somewhat necessary to the advancement of the species, but it seems
to me that it's a really personal thing, lumping a bunch of them
together leads to bad stuff.
>
>That let's all huddle instinct is how humans rescue each from disasters 
>and to help us feel safe in an unsafe world.  Family, friends, that kind 
>neighbor you've never spoken to but wave at a few times a week. Who do 
>you try to rescue in a disaster.  Even the supremely independent can and 
>do benefit from these huddled masses.  Or do you have a new collosus to 
>put forth?
>
Let's all huddle is not what makes me feel safe, particularly when
it's huddling in the same stupid supersitions that have replaced true
thinking, in fact it makes me feel really unsafe. As to who I save in
a diaster, I save those I like first, then whomever's available within
reach, giving points to the young. 

Supremely independent? collosus? 
Who 'dem?

Fader

>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22894
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 03:00:42 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:42:27 -0500, Kevin Patrick Crowley
<kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com> wrote:

>I didn't say that you said that Ashcroft was a terrorist.  I challenged 
>your fear of him in terms of demonstrable risk.
>
There are quite a few things where I can't demonstrate risk, I still
treat them as risky, & some as downright deadly.
 
>
>My grand-daughter is terrified of spiders.  She is not afraid of heavy 
>traffic.  Do you see the analogy?
>
She should be afraid of spiders, the brown recluse is deadly & I have
a semi-relative who died from a spider bite. OTOH, heavy traffic is
easy to see, & not really something to be afraid of, just treated with
some amount of caution. (ex-NY cabbie, remember, we know traffic<g>) 
>
>I'll grant you the feeling but that still doesn't doesn't feed the logic 
>  of your argument.
>
Logic doesn't apply, but probably I could if really pressed come up
with just a few historical similarities, the kind of laws that he's
trying to get enacted, & the kind of power that he's gathering, does
not bode well for the rest of us. As for the historical the founding
fathers thought that this type of thing was not good for themselves to
have, I should trust Ashcroft.
>> 

>Fader, why would you be one of the ones.  I need a real world cite on 
>this or it is just paranoia.  Sorry, unless you have coventry and the 
>USA confused Fader is in little danger.

Again I'm not important enough, OTOH, if there was coventry then I'd
probably do alright, likely be some friends there.
>
>> I'm not important enough, [thank the deity] & like Slippery Jim, I try
>> to keep a low profile [in fact, I do it better, since I don't go
>> around shooting off guns and such]<g>) & second by my own reasoning &
>> as I said, if I'm right then the terrorist problem will take care of
>> itself,
>
>How?
>
You have to pay attention to the original arguement, with the religion
either gone or adapted to more modern beliefs, they won't have the
support/recruits they need.

>You have assureness about terrorists going away but not Ahcroft and his 
>ilk?  Again, HOW!!!

See above & original post for part one, as for part two, 1-it's much
harder in this country to get things repealed/overturned in this
country than it is to get them started, & 2- governments don't like
giving up power once it's granted to them, it's contra-survival.

Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22895
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 03:03:30 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:16:15 -0700, John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
wrote:

>I thought of a better counter-example:
>  Confucianism.
>
>Is it a religion?  Some people characterize it as such, while
>others simple call it an "ethical tradition", since it lacks
>the usual "theological" trappings:  no gods or demons, no
>reincarnation or other afterlife.  Yet it has a highly developed
>ethical/moral code, detailing how one should structure one's
>relationships to one's family, friends, people over and under
>you in authority, etc., and a general priciple that translates
>as "humaneness" or "gentlemanlyness".  All this without a
>"highter moral authority".
>
A great example, most of the "eastern" religions come much closer to
what I think religions should be, at least from an enlighted spiritual
basis.

Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22896
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 03:12:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:46:09 -0500, Kevin Patrick Crowley
<kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com> wrote:

>
>Confucianism is ancestor worship.  

Sorry, that would be the Shinto religion.

>Don't see your point.  
>
I think that you were looking for a belief system that wasn't
derivative, a moral/ethic system that didn't just have the serial #s
filed off. It does fit the bill rather nicely for the type of thing
that I'm trying to explain.

>Will not be answering any other posts of yours.

Don't see why not.

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22897
From: gunner" 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 00:57:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

i wish your son good luck, middlebury is a nice little town, i used to go to
the bank there with a gun and take out the money a couple of times a week.
"gunner"
-----------------------------------
"David Wright" <dwrighsr@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:3f6afd5b.0@news.sff.net...
>
> "gunner" <gunnera4@sover.net> wrote in message
> news:3f6a8ae4.0@news.sff.net...
> > thanks david, for a very timely warning! just after reading your post,
> > within 5 minutes, i got a pile of those too, with the same title and
> varying
> > "microsoft" sender names. (no, i don't think you had anything to do with
> > it!) i deleted them forthwith and deleted them again from the "deleted
> > items" file. if you ever find yourself up in vermont stop by for a shot
of
> > tullamore dew from the neverending bottle i swindled from a leprechaun.
> > "gunner"
>
> I may just possibly get to Vermont one day, if a long shot occurs. My son
is
> finishing his Ph.D. and has applied for a job at Middlebury.
> --
> David Wright
>
> Join us at the next Heinlein Readers Group, Saturday  at 5:00 P.M. EDT
> Topic is "Heinlein's Heroines". Who is your favorite/least favorite?
> See: http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/AIM_09-18-2003.html
> for alt.fan.heinlein pre-chat discussions
>
> See http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info for
instructions
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22898
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 03:44:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 03:03:30 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:

Fader:
    Frankly I am a bit surprised that in this group more people
haven't concurred with you about Ashcroft.  Anyone in power who
wants to take away our rights because"it is for our own good" is
someone to be feared by anyone with libertarian leanings; IMHO.
   Are we to wind up like some of Heinlein's characters (In "Between
Planets",e.g.) who didn't notice that their liberties had been
severely eroded over the years?  It would seem again that the one
thing that "we" never learn from history is that we the people never
learn from history and are perhaps doomed to repeat our errors.
  Big Charlie:  I was hoping to hear from you on this issue. i.e.:
That we all should give up some of our constitutional rights because
the threat of Terrorism is too important to let a piece of paper
stand in the way of law enforcement.  It sounds a lot like the
Liberals pushing bad legislation through congress because it is "for
the children".  

Ed J (stirring the pot)





>On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 07:16:15 -0700, John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
>wrote:
>
>>I thought of a better counter-example:
>>  Confucianism.
<snip>
>>
>A great example, most of the "eastern" religions come much closer to
>what I think religions should be, at least from an enlighted spiritual
>basis.
>
>Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22899
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 03:58:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

David:     Computer Associates International, Inc. (CA) releases
their AV updates on a daily basis when required; less frequently
otherwise. (I have set my AV auto-download to check for new files
every 8 hours.)  I don't know if frequent updating makes them better
than their competition, but it does seem reassuring to have the
latest antivirus files loaded in my PC.  I use CA's "e-trust EZ
antivirus".
   In past years, CA's competition have accused them of being
"alarmist" and trying to drum up business by blowing the threat of
virus attack out of proportion.  I doubt if they now sound so
alarmist in light of the recent serious attacks.

Ed J (unpaid tech guy)




On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 08:55:33 -0400, "David Wright"
<dwrighsr@alltel.net> wrote:

>>
>What bothers me most is how my Norton didn't recognize it, since supposedly
>it is a variant of a known one. Other people are saying that their Norton
>did recognize. Any I checked through all of the symptoms listed at the
>following and download the very latest update files and am waiting to see if
>they will catch it. Apparently, the 'Live Update' files are only released
>once a week, the last time being two days ago, so maybe that would account
>for it.
>
>http://securityresponse.symantec.com/avcenter/venc/data/w32.swen.a@mm.html


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22900
From: Kevin Patrick Crowley 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 03:39:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:29:54 -0500, Kevin Patrick Crowley
> <kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com> wrote:
> 
> SNIP
> 
>>Or 
>>more specifically what in the bloody blue blazes is an (un)evolved 
>>person?  A cockroach is evolved. A paramecium is evolved.  
> 
> 
> Evolved as I used it in the sense of how I used it in the original
> post, beyond the need for religion. 
> 
> Let's not have this devolve into a semantics/nit-picking thing,
> honestly did you really not know what I was referring to? If true,
> then just ask, don't  make arguements about things having nothing to
> do with the discussion. I'd really rather you start your own thread if
> you want to discuss wha's evolved mean, cockroaches, & paramecium
> (what is the) 
>
It is not a nit pick. It is an important point that has to be clarified.
Let us try it this way.
If evolution is a constant upward path: why do you conclude that it will 
be away from the concept of god and not towards god?

> 
>>>seems to be somewhat short-sighted. Given that the reproductive
>>>impteus[sp?] is pretty much a given it seems that we are already
>>>beyond the "ME SURVIVE" ethic. 
>>
>>What was the mechanism by which this happened?
> 
> 
> Not sure what the question is here, are you denying a reproductive
> impeteus, reproducing is counter-productive to a strictly "ME SURVIVE"
> ethic. (why some eat their young, tastiness aside) 
> 
>>Aside to Paul: Never ever imply that I 
>>think that Atheists are without morals.  If you ever make that 
>>sort of implication toward me or even somewhat in my direction again I 
>>will challenge you. Personally!
> 
> 
> He prefers JohnPaul, & I would reconsider this one, it's a bad idea, I
> wouldn't steer you wrong.
> 
> 
>>Fader you could say that about any organization.  You just described a 
>>bureaucracy AND IT'S INHABITANTS.
> 
> 
> Yes, which is what happens when you organize spiritual thought/beliefs
> into a system & make an organization out of it. IMHO, spiritual belief
> is somewhat necessary to the advancement of the species, but it seems
> to me that it's a really personal thing, lumping a bunch of them
> together leads to bad stuff.

At what size herd do you postulate spititual belief becoming a bad thing?

> 
>>That let's all huddle instinct is how humans rescue each from disasters 
>>and to help us feel safe in an unsafe world.  Family, friends, that kind 
>>neighbor you've never spoken to but wave at a few times a week. Who do 
>>you try to rescue in a disaster.  Even the supremely independent can and 
>>do benefit from these huddled masses.  Or do you have a new collosus to 
>>put forth?
>>
> 
> Let's all huddle is not what makes me feel safe, particularly when
> it's huddling in the same stupid supersitions that have replaced true
> thinking, in fact it makes me feel really unsafe. 

Okay.  What superstitions are we talking about?

>As to who I save in
> a diaster, I save those I like first, then whomever's available within
> reach, giving points to the young.


Supremely independent is no one in particular though might be the 
protagonists in Atlas Shrugs.

The New Collosus is the poem at the foot of the Statue of Liberty.





> 
> Supremely independent? collosus? 
> Who 'dem?
> 
> Fader
> 
> 
> 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22901
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:05:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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Fader wrote:

>On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:46:09 -0500, Kevin Patrick Crowley
><kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com> wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Confucianism is ancestor worship.  
>>    
>>
>
>Sorry, that would be the Shinto religion.
>  
>
Actually, I think you're both thinking of certain forms of Buddhism. 
Shinto is more related to spirits of places and natural forces. 
Confucianism is, AFAIK, pretty much as John Paul described it. The 
cultures that follow the teachings of Confucius often practice Buddhism 
as well, and have done so for long enough that it can be hard to see 
where one ends and the other begins. But to say that Confucianism is 
ancestor worship is a bit like saying following Plato's teachings is 
worshipping Zeus.

>>Don't see your point.  
>>    
>>
>I think that you were looking for a belief system that wasn't
>derivative, a moral/ethic system that didn't just have the serial #s
>filed off. It does fit the bill rather nicely for the type of thing
>that I'm trying to explain.
>
Fader, I get the impression from the tone used that Mr. Crowley doesn't 
want to debate this point, he just wants everyone to admit he's right. I 
could be wrong.

>>Will not be answering any other posts of yours.
>>    
>>
Don't forget to take your marbles home with you.

-- 
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca


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Fader wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:46:09 -0500, Kevin Patrick Crowley
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com"><kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com></a> wrote:

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Confucianism is ancestor worship.  
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Sorry, that would be the Shinto religion.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
Actually, I think you're both thinking of certain forms of Buddhism.
Shinto is more related to spirits of places and natural forces.
Confucianism is, AFAIK, pretty much as John Paul described it. The
cultures that follow the teachings of Confucius often practice Buddhism
as well, and have done so for long enough that it can be hard to see
where one ends and the other begins. But to say that Confucianism is
ancestor worship is a bit like saying following Plato's teachings is
worshipping Zeus.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Don't see your point.  
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->I think that you were looking for a belief system that wasn't
derivative, a moral/ethic system that didn't just have the serial #s
filed off. It does fit the bill rather nicely for the type of thing
that I'm trying to explain.</pre>
</blockquote>
Fader, I get the impression from the tone used that Mr. Crowley doesn't
want to debate this point, he just wants everyone to admit he's right.
I could be wrong.<br>
<blockquote type="cite">
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Will not be answering any other posts of yours.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!----></pre>
</blockquote>
Don't forget to take your marbles home with you.<br>
<br>
<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">-- 
Eli V. Hestermann
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:ehestermann@charter.net">ehestermann@charter.net</a>
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
</pre>
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--------------000205010806060006060102--


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22902
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:17:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

David Wright wrote:

>I may just possibly get to Vermont one day, if a long shot occurs. My son is
>finishing his Ph.D. and has applied for a job at Middlebury.
>  
>
Good luck to your son, David. I just got a faculty position at a liberal 
arts college, and I know what a process that can be. What field is your 
son in?

-- 
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22903
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:24:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Thanks, Ed. Selecting "repain and silently delete if unsuccessful" did 
the trick. My1500 new messages are coming through without any 
intervention on my part.

-- 
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22904
From: David Wright" 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 08:20:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


Eli Hestermann <ehestermann@charter.net> wrote in message
news:3f6c28cf.0@news.sff.net...
> David Wright wrote:
>
> >I may just possibly get to Vermont one day, if a long shot occurs. My son
is
> >finishing his Ph.D. and has applied for a job at Middlebury.
> >
> >
> Good luck to your son, David. I just got a faculty position at a liberal
> arts college, and I know what a process that can be. What field is your
> son in?
>

Congratulations to you. He is in Drama, specializing in History and
Political uses of Drama. Last year was very bleak for Drama graduates, There
were very few, if any, jobs for last year's graduates and this year was
looking as bad with a number of colleges actually closing their drama
departments, but he has found and applied to 8.
--
David Wright

Join us at the next Heinlein Readers Group, Saturday  at 5:00 P.M. EDT
Topic is "Heinlein's Heroines". Who is your favorite/least favorite?
See Log of Thursday's discussion:
http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/AIM_09-18-2003.html
and alt.fan.heinlein pre-chat discussions

See http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info for instructions




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22905
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:29:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 03:39:40 -0500, Kevin Patrick Crowley
<kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com> wrote:

>>
>It is not a nit pick. It is an important point that has to be clarified.
>Let us try it this way.
>If evolution is a constant upward path: why do you conclude that it will 
>be away from the concept of god and not towards god?
>
Kevin, you are reading what I'm writing,right. 

I didn't say anything about god, the closest I came was saying that a
belief in the spiritual/divine was a necessary part of this. (how does
it go; "religion has the same relationship to god, as history does to
truth, ie., none to speak of" -LL [owtte])

Fader



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22906
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:38:30 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:05:21 -0400, Eli Hestermann
<ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:

>Actually, I think you're both thinking of certain forms of Buddhism. 
>Shinto is more related to spirits of places and natural forces. 
>Confucianism is, AFAIK, pretty much as John Paul described it. The 
>cultures that follow the teachings of Confucius often practice Buddhism 
>as well, and have done so for long enough that it can be hard to see 
>where one ends and the other begins. But to say that Confucianism is 
>ancestor worship is a bit like saying following Plato's teachings is 
>worshipping Zeus.
>
I could be wrong, & will certainly bow to the fact that you've been
there & I haven't.
>>
>Fader, I get the impression from the tone used that Mr. Crowley doesn't 
>want to debate this point, he just wants everyone to admit he's right. I 
>could be wrong.
>
You could be right again, he has certainly been that way in the past,
(somewhat before your time, maybe) I have a long memorey though & will
keep eyes open for such, but for the time being I'll give him the
benefit of the doubt, besides he's all I've got at the moment<g>

>Don't forget to take your marbles home with you.
>
Use to be, Bat & ball before baseball went downhill

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22907
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:51:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 03:44:47 -0400, Ed Johnson
<eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:

>On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 03:03:30 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>
>Fader:
>    Frankly I am a bit surprised that in this group more people
>haven't concurred with you about Ashcroft.  Anyone in power who
>wants to take away our rights because"it is for our own good" is
>someone to be feared by anyone with libertarian leanings; IMHO.

I am too, possibly it's too patently obvious for most to bother with.
Could be that some don't want to get into the other part of the
dicussion also.

>   Are we to wind up like some of Heinlein's characters (In "Between
>Planets",e.g.) who didn't notice that their liberties had been
>severely eroded over the years?  It would seem again that the one
>thing that "we" never learn from history is that we the people never
>learn from history and are perhaps doomed to repeat our errors.

Don't remember "Between Planets" well enough, but I was thinking more
along the lines of a "Nemiah Scudder"{sp?} type of thing, particularly
when it becomes the christian religions' time to pass (again, assuming
my reasoning is at all credible)

>  Big Charlie:  I was hoping to hear from you on this issue. i.e.:
>That we all should give up some of our constitutional rights because
>the threat of Terrorism is too important to let a piece of paper
>stand in the way of law enforcement.  It sounds a lot like the
>Liberals pushing bad legislation through congress because it is "for
>the children".

Hey Charlie, how'd the cabin make out?
  
>
>Ed J (stirring the pot)

Thanx,
It's a dirty job, (splashes & whatnot, but someone.....<G>)

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22908
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:56:21 GMT
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:24:34 -0400, Eli Hestermann
<ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:

>Thanks, Ed. Selecting "repain and silently delete if unsuccessful" did 
>the trick. My1500 new messages are coming through without any 
>intervention on my part.
>
I got 10 of the MS update ( or variation today) 1 yesterday, but Today
I also got 12 returned mail, that I didn't send in the first place.
All had a attached mim file, of which the *.mim was a random string of
letters. So they are not just exe files. Be careful out there.

Fader 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22909
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 17:00:58 GMT
Subject: Re: "Squalls out on the Gulf Stream...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 19 Sep 2003 10:24:29 -0400, JT <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote:

Glad to hear you guys came through OK. 

Hell, I've got branches & leaves down & I didn't have a storm, & of
course I leave a bit further from the waterfront than you.<G>

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22910
From: JT 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:13:20 -0400
Subject: For all you Comics Fans
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Christine indulged me and we took the boys to the Baltimore ComicCon
this morning.  It was her idea to dress the boys; David was Batman and
Daniel was Robin (those were the costumes that fit).  They were a
hit-- Daniel got his picture taken at least once that I know of and he
got many comments and happily waved at people who called out to him
"Hey Robin".  (Except for the one comedian who saw him acting up a bit
and asked me if he was Jason Todd--that's inside humor for you Batman
fans.)

Anyway, the highlight of the morning for me was meeting Martin Nodell,
who is cocreator of the original Green Lantern.  I bought an original
signed piece of artwork from him, got an autograph besides, and had a
short conversation.  There were lines around the corner for some of
the "hot" artists, but a living piece of history was getting little
attention.

I know GL has come up in conversation here before, and I thought some
of you might appreciate the story.

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22911
From: Dean White" 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:22:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote in message
news:hg0omvgmqvfl81brd5mqmm5b71t8jqdcjn@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 03:03:30 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>
> Fader:
>     Frankly I am a bit surprised that in this group more people
> haven't concurred with you about Ashcroft.  Anyone in power who
> wants to take away our rights because"it is for our own good" is
> someone to be feared by anyone with libertarian leanings; IMHO.

.... snip

>
> Ed J (stirring the pot)
>
>

Oh, I agree totally, even if I'm not a libertarian.   It's just that Fader
said it well.

-- 
www.DeanWhite.net
 has contact information



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22912
From: David M. Silver" 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:45:29 -0700
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3f6c1250.0@news.sff.net>,
 Kevin Patrick Crowley <kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com> wrote:

> If evolution is a constant upward path: why do you conclude that it will 
> be away from the concept of god and not towards god?

Forgive me for butting in if this is a private long-standing discussion, 
but why not if "towards god" then towards all of those who evolve 
becoming like Krell? 

See, Lost Legacy.

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22913
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:57:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader:  I have been getting those mysterious "returned mailings"
without ever having sent out any mail for a couple of weeks now.
It has me concerned, thought I have fully checked for virus
infestation.

Ed J

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:56:21 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:

>On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:24:34 -0400, Eli Hestermann
><ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:
>
>>Thanks, Ed. Selecting "repain and silently delete if unsuccessful" did 
>>the trick. My1500 new messages are coming through without any 
>>intervention on my part.
>>
>I got 10 of the MS update ( or variation today) 1 yesterday, but Today
>I also got 12 returned mail, that I didn't send in the first place.
>All had a attached mim file, of which the *.mim was a random string of
>letters. So they are not just exe files. Be careful out there.
>
>Fader 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22914
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:04:57 -0400
Subject: Re: For all you Comics Fans
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT:
   Green Lantern!  Way cool!
He was a childhood favorite of mine.  Good for the imagination.
(Thirty odd years later, I can still see him battling the 'shark
man';  a creature that got hit by a stray beam of radiation (happens
all the time in the comics ;-)  ) and evolved into a shark/man
nemesis. <g>  I recall that he defeated the shark and escaped from
the all-yellow room he was trapped in by having his ring create a
large air conditioning unit which condensed water out of the air.
He turned the water into ice and used it to batter open the wall of
his prison.  IIRC

Ed J

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 20:13:20 -0400, JT <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote:

>Christine indulged me and we took the boys to the Baltimore ComicCon
>this morning.  It was her idea to dress the boys; David was Batman and
>Daniel was Robin (those were the costumes that fit).  They were a
>hit-- Daniel got his picture taken at least once that I know of and he
>got many comments and happily waved at people who called out to him
>"Hey Robin".  (Except for the one comedian who saw him acting up a bit
>and asked me if he was Jason Todd--that's inside humor for you Batman
>fans.)
>
>Anyway, the highlight of the morning for me was meeting Martin Nodell,
>who is cocreator of the original Green Lantern.  I bought an original
>signed piece of artwork from him, got an autograph besides, and had a
>short conversation.  There were lines around the corner for some of
>the "hot" artists, but a living piece of history was getting little
>attention.
>
>I know GL has come up in conversation here before, and I thought some
>of you might appreciate the story.
>
>JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22915
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:09:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

David:   I thought that the Krell was the lost race uncovered by the
survivors of the Belarathon(?sp) disaster on Altair 7?  Both the
movie and the book "Forbidden Planet" mention the Krell, IIRC.  I
just don't remember them from Heinlein's "Lost Legacy".
   I will have to reread that one by RAH to see where my memory has
led me.

Ed J

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:45:29 -0700, "David M. Silver"
<ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:

>In article <3f6c1250.0@news.sff.net>,
> Kevin Patrick Crowley <kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com> wrote:
>
>> If evolution is a constant upward path: why do you conclude that it will 
>> be away from the concept of god and not towards god?
>
>Forgive me for butting in if this is a private long-standing discussion, 
>but why not if "towards god" then towards all of those who evolve 
>becoming like Krell? 
>
>See, Lost Legacy.


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22916
From: gunner" 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:19:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

i found this posted in elisabeth moon's group and tried it out,
http://www.mailwasher.net/ it's a quick easy install, easy to use and seems
to help.
"gunner"
----------------------------------
"gunner" <gunnera4@sover.net> wrote in message
news:3f6bde8c.0@news.sff.net...
> i wish your son good luck, middlebury is a nice little town, i used to go
to
> the bank there with a gun and take out the money a couple of times a week.
> "gunner"
> -----------------------------------
> "David Wright" <dwrighsr@alltel.net> wrote in message
> news:3f6afd5b.0@news.sff.net...
> >
> > "gunner" <gunnera4@sover.net> wrote in message
> > news:3f6a8ae4.0@news.sff.net...
> > > thanks david, for a very timely warning! just after reading your post,
> > > within 5 minutes, i got a pile of those too, with the same title and
> > varying
> > > "microsoft" sender names. (no, i don't think you had anything to do
with
> > > it!) i deleted them forthwith and deleted them again from the "deleted
> > > items" file. if you ever find yourself up in vermont stop by for a
shot
> of
> > > tullamore dew from the neverending bottle i swindled from a
leprechaun.
> > > "gunner"
> >
> > I may just possibly get to Vermont one day, if a long shot occurs. My
son
> is
> > finishing his Ph.D. and has applied for a job at Middlebury.
> > --
> > David Wright
> >
> > Join us at the next Heinlein Readers Group, Saturday  at 5:00 P.M. EDT
> > Topic is "Heinlein's Heroines". Who is your favorite/least favorite?
> > See: http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/AIM_09-18-2003.html
> > for alt.fan.heinlein pre-chat discussions
> >
> > See http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info for
> instructions
> >
> >
>
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22917
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:36:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader:   Back in the 'old days' as you mentioned, both bytor and BC
would have championed the stand against losing our constitutional
rights to Big Brother (each from a different POV and with much
passion, IIRC <g>.)  _You_ mention it and it gets yawned at! I am
far from being as articulate as some, but I do get upset when I feel
that all of our rights are being infringed upon by Big government.
I am not well read, but in addition to Heinlein and Ayn Rand I have
read 1984 and Animal Farm.  These last two alarmed me at an early
age.  I feel that "a little bit of socialism" is like being "a
little bit pregnant".  You just know that more is sure to follow.
   As for the religious discussion:  Years ago, I was actually
surprised to find out just how strong the religious convictions are
here on the Forum.
I, too, thought that there would be a higher percentage of what you
called 'evolved' people hanging out here. (I realize that 'evolved
is a tag that you are using and not a dictionary definition by any
stroke of the imagination.  I only wish that everyone could see that
and move on with the discussion)
  Strongly held religious beliefs are expressed here, bordering on
fundamentalism. Or so I have observed these past 8.75 years that I
have been reading the postings on Prodigy and later on this sff.net.
I like most of the folks here and while I do not share all of their
views, we do have a great deal in common.  Our belief in human
dignity and basic libertarian ideals come to mind. 

     I recall something I read years ago on the old Prodigy Heinlein
Forum:  In our debates, we attack the issue not the person.  I, for
one would be happier when we keep personalities out of our debates.
I know that religion and politics are 'hot button' items for most
people;  hopefully they can be discussed in a civilized manor.

Ed J 
(who was Petronius?)

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:51:08 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:

>On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 03:44:47 -0400, Ed Johnson
><eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 03:03:30 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>>
>>Fader:
>>    Frankly I am a bit surprised that in this group more people
>>haven't concurred with you about Ashcroft.  Anyone in power who
>>wants to take away our rights because"it is for our own good" is
>>someone to be feared by anyone with libertarian leanings; IMHO.
>
>I am too, possibly it's too patently obvious for most to bother with.
>Could be that some don't want to get into the other part of the
>dicussion also.
>
>>   Are we to wind up like some of Heinlein's characters (In "Between
>>Planets",e.g.) who didn't notice that their liberties had been
>>severely eroded over the years?  It would seem again that the one
>>thing that "we" never learn from history is that we the people never
>>learn from history and are perhaps doomed to repeat our errors.
>
>Don't remember "Between Planets" well enough, but I was thinking more
>along the lines of a "Nemiah Scudder"{sp?} type of thing, particularly
>when it becomes the christian religions' time to pass (again, assuming
>my reasoning is at all credible)
>
>>  Big Charlie:  I was hoping to hear from you on this issue. i.e.:
>>That we all should give up some of our constitutional rights because
>>the threat of Terrorism is too important to let a piece of paper
>>stand in the way of law enforcement.  It sounds a lot like the
>>Liberals pushing bad legislation through congress because it is "for
>>the children".
>
>Hey Charlie, how'd the cabin make out?
>  
>>
>>Ed J (stirring the pot)
>
>Thanx,
>It's a dirty job, (splashes & whatnot, but someone.....<G>)
>
>Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22918
From: David M. Silver" 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 01:33:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <ad5qmv0d4idnfmfvi4j8dslgr78ci6no4g@4ax.com>,
 Ed Johnson <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:

> David:   I thought that the Krell was the lost race uncovered by the
> survivors of the Belarathon(?sp) disaster on Altair 7?  Both the
> movie and the book "Forbidden Planet" mention the Krell, IIRC.  I
> just don't remember them from Heinlein's "Lost Legacy".

They're not; and I'm sorry but I misspelled the name, without bothering 
to look it up, from sheer laziness. The name I wanted is Kreel. The name 
of the Jackaira god from Methuselah's Children. 

I combined Lost Legacy and the Kreel episope deliberately, as I can view 
it as the same end from two separate directions, of evolving toward god.

>    I will have to reread that one by RAH to see where my memory has
> led me.
> 
> Ed J
> 
> On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 19:45:29 -0700, "David M. Silver"
> <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> >In article <3f6c1250.0@news.sff.net>,
> > Kevin Patrick Crowley <kevin.crowley@crowleyenterprises.com> wrote:
> >
> >> If evolution is a constant upward path: why do you conclude that it will 
> >> be away from the concept of god and not towards god?
> >
> >Forgive me for butting in if this is a private long-standing discussion, 
> >but why not if "towards god" then towards all of those who evolve 
> >becoming like Krell? 
> >
> >See, Lost Legacy.
>

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22919
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 03:20:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

gunner wrote:
> i found this posted in elisabeth moon's group and tried it out,
> http://www.mailwasher.net/ it's a quick easy install, easy to use and
> seems to help.
> "gunner"

I avoid any software that works via "blacklists". Blacklist systems work so
badly that past tests have shown that you can get more false positives than
proper positives. That is counterproductive.

-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22920
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 03:24:30 -0700
Subject: Re: For all you Comics Fans
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT wrote:
> <snip>(Except for the one comedian who saw him acting up a bit
> and asked me if he was Jason Todd--that's inside humor for you Batman
> fans.)

To the tune of "Rockin' Robin"

"He lived on the streets where he learned to steal
He even stole the hubs off the Batmobile.
Batman thought he should have a chance.
But try being a man wearing short green pants!

Rotten Robin...."

By Tom Smith. Go to MP3.com, search for Tom Smith, and try some of his
stuff. Or, try www.tomsmithonline.com. Highly recommended weirdness for
science fiction and fantasy fans.

-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22921
From: David Wright" 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:12:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


Filksinger <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3f6d7c35.0@news.sff.net...
> gunner wrote:
> > i found this posted in elisabeth moon's group and tried it out,
> > http://www.mailwasher.net/ it's a quick easy install, easy to use and
> > seems to help.
> > "gunner"
>
> I avoid any software that works via "blacklists". Blacklist systems work
so
> badly that past tests have shown that you can get more false positives
than
> proper positives. That is counterproductive.
>

I am using ChoiceMail, a system that works by blacklist. It is supposed to
work by sending a message to anyone not on my 'whitelist' asking them to
confirm who they are and why they want to talk to me. I disable this part
and simply check my 'unknown sender' list daily and am easily able to spot
valid messages which I then approve. The rest are then deleted. I have found
it to be highly effective. I would say 100% effective. Of course, that is my
own 'whitelist/blacklist' not that of a third party.
--
David Wright
http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/index.html
http://heinleinsociety.org

Help us prepare for the upcoming Centennial of the birthday of Robert A.
Heinlein
http://heinlein100.org

Anytime is a good time to join us in The Heinlein Society
http://heinleinsociety.org/membership.html
http://heinleinsociety.org/join.html





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22922
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 13:16:18 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 23:36:37 -0400, Ed Johnson
<eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:

I'm suprised too, & more so by the reaction of the country in general,
& while I realize we've been breeding sheep for quite awhile now, with
a big push on inward looking/thinking with all the PC crap, still
I'd've thought that there were still some old enough to be really
upset. (maybe they're too tired, I am)

As for the HF, I'm can't throw stones, this is the first thing I've
posted in I can't even remember (at least of any substance, [we hope
it's substancive<g>]) In the old days, (fall'92 for me) the HF/PCs &
computing in general were newer, we had a shiny new toy, & we just
couldn't wait to play with it, & share it with each other. We were
younger too, & I think had more time, (Hell, Bob's in college,
certainly he had more time back then<g>) Life goes on, tempus fugit 
& such.

>(who was Petronius?)
>
A ginger-ale drinking Cat?

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22923
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 10:10:45 -0400
Subject: Re: For all you Comics Fans
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Filksinger:
      Cool!  I'll check it out.

Ed J

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 03:24:30 -0700, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:

>JT wrote:
>> <snip>(Except for the one comedian who saw him acting up a bit
>> and asked me if he was Jason Todd--that's inside humor for you Batman
>> fans.)
>
>To the tune of "Rockin' Robin"
>
>"He lived on the streets where he learned to steal
>He even stole the hubs off the Batmobile.
>Batman thought he should have a chance.
>But try being a man wearing short green pants!
>
>Rotten Robin...."
>
>By Tom Smith. Go to MP3.com, search for Tom Smith, and try some of his
>stuff. Or, try www.tomsmithonline.com. Highly recommended weirdness for
>science fiction and fantasy fans.


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22924
From: John Paul Vrolyk 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:14:25 -0700
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ed Johnson wrote:
>     Frankly I am a bit surprised that in this group more people
> haven't concurred with you about Ashcroft.

You only need to post when you disagree.  :-)

So maybe everyone else agree.  Or maybe they're just
not here, or are apathetic.

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22925
From: John Paul Vrolyk 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:27:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ed Johnson wrote:
>    As for the religious discussion:  Years ago, I was actually
> surprised to find out just how strong the religious convictions are
> here on the Forum.

>   Strongly held religious beliefs are expressed here, bordering on
> fundamentalism.

Actually, I'm decidedly *NOT* suprised that religious beliefs
here are strongly held.  There's plenty of the people in the
world who give barely more than lip service to some religion
or other, but are not honest (even with themselves) or consistent
about it.  Don't we see here people who have either firmly
embraced or firmly rejected religion (or at least some
particular religion)?  That requires an intellectual courage
that I can respect even when I'm on the other side.

>      I recall something I read years ago on the old Prodigy Heinlein
> Forum:  In our debates, we attack the issue not the person.  I, for
> one would be happier when we keep personalities out of our debates.

I think most of us do prefer it that way, and I think that
mostly that's what happens.  Oh, sure, I've seen a few minor
transgressions from time to time, but rarely anything serious.
If you have a specific concern, please, call attention to it.

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22926
From: John Paul Vrolyk 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:31:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Kevin Patrick Crowley wrote:
> I apologize for only using your middle name.

Accepted, not a problem...except I have no middle name.
I have a first name with a space in it.

"John Paul" works best, but as it happens, just "Paul"
is more likely to get my attention that is just "John".

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22927
From: John Paul Vrolyk 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 08:04:34 -0700
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Kevin Patrick Crowley wrote:
> Aside to Paul: Never ever imply that I
> think that Atheists are without morals.  I have dear friends who are
> highly moral and atheist.  As I have argued with them and most have come
> to this view also that their moral code is derivative.

I call'em like I see'em.  If you don't want discussion,
don't post on a public discussion forum.

> Several are
> struggling with this and have of yet not constructed a moral code that
> can not be shown to be derivative of religion.

Why is the burden of proof on them?

Did you or they consider that maybe religious moral codes
might be derivative of even earlier secular moral codes?

> If you ever make that
> sort of implication toward me or even somewhat in my direction again I
> will challenge you. Personally!

I found your claim that all morals must flow from a "higher
moral authority" both absurd, and insulting to me and any
other non-religious people who feel pretty sure that we
do have morals of our own that don't rely on or derive
from your or any other god.

Yet, this being a public discussion forum, I merely
discussed your claim, rather than, say, calling you names,
however appropriate I might think them, or threatening you
with physical violence.

Now, *YOU* claim to be insulted by *ME*, and threaten me
over it?  I have no interest in dueling you, but I will
protect myself, my family, and my friends with force up
to and including deadly force if physically attacked.

> > What I think is that once said religious theory
> > is used as the basis for an organization, things really start to go
> > downhil, & the survival/continuation/supremacy of the organization
> > slowly (sometimes not so slowly) becomes more important than the
> > original principles themselves.
> 
> Fader you could say that about any organization.  You just described a
> bureaucracy AND IT'S INHABITANTS.

Yes, I agree.  And although it's not an argument against
religion, it's certainly an argument against formal
organized religion.  The same thing happens, too, in, say
political advocacy groups:  political parties, single-issue
groups, whatever.

The key seems to be employees, people who make a living or
at least a profit from working for the organization.  They
have an inherent conflict of interest between accomplishing
the original goals of the organization, and doing what keeps
the organization in existence and with enough money to keep
paying them.  For enterprises trying to earn a profit, this
isn't much of a problem, but it can be deadly to others.

> > IMHO, we need to do away with the
> > organizational aspects, not necessarily the spiritual thought behind
> > them.

Organization without paid employees seemt to do much better.
The same thing can happen with respect to prestige instead
of money, but in my observation, that's less frequent and
much less severe a problem.

So maybe organized churges need only all-volunteer pastors, etc.?

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22928
From: JT 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:33:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:14:25 -0700, John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
wrote:

>Ed Johnson wrote:
>>     Frankly I am a bit surprised that in this group more people
>> haven't concurred with you about Ashcroft.
>
>You only need to post when you disagree.  :-)
>
>So maybe everyone else agree.  Or maybe they're just
>not here, or are apathetic.

That about sums it up.  We have similar views on most things, and it
really is splitting hairs to find differences.  People are busy since
it's not the "new toy" anymore, and most posters have been reading
here for a few years.

I am really glad KPC (& JP) showed up again, I thought it was actually
kinda fun to read an argument. ;)

I'm not much for discussing political theory "on paper" anymore-- what
I will do is post a new roll call thread and see what tangents that
leads us to!  

JT



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22929
From: JT 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:33:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:57:06 -0400, Ed Johnson
<eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:

Ed & Fader--what is happening is that your email address has been used
on some of the virus mailings out there--but the messages were not
actually sent from you/your mail client/your account.

There's not a lot you can do about it short of implementing a very
serious whitelist/blacklist solution.

SFF Net has done a great job of implementing spam filtering via
proprietary rulesets and a "junk" folder online.  I only get a few
spam each week and only 20-30 in the junk folder, some of which are
legitimate but which might not be very strict on the actual assembly
of the email header, which makes them "suspect".

I'm also very careful about giving out my email address online.

JT

>Fader:  I have been getting those mysterious "returned mailings"
>without ever having sent out any mail for a couple of weeks now.
>It has me concerned, thought I have fully checked for virus
>infestation.
>
>Ed J
>
>On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:56:21 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:24:34 -0400, Eli Hestermann
>><ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:
>>
>>>Thanks, Ed. Selecting "repain and silently delete if unsuccessful" did 
>>>the trick. My1500 new messages are coming through without any 
>>>intervention on my part.
>>>
>>I got 10 of the MS update ( or variation today) 1 yesterday, but Today
>>I also got 12 returned mail, that I didn't send in the first place.
>>All had a attached mim file, of which the *.mim was a random string of
>>letters. So they are not just exe files. Be careful out there.
>>
>>Fader 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22930
From: JT 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:33:30 -0400
Subject: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

As I promised in another thread, here's the place to announce
yourself, update us on anything you'd like in your personal life, TV
habits, new "reads", whatever!

John Tilden (go by "JT" or rarely "JusTin" here)
age 34, married to Christine
two boys: Daniel & David
residence: near Baltimore, MD.

personal home page: w w w. t i l d e n s. n e t

occupation: most recently supervisor of small R&D computer lab helping
to service application development at a large federal agency. Past
experience includes Email Administrator, Systems Analyst, Claims Rep,
Prodigy Science Fiction BB Leader, Day Laborer, Copy
Editor/Proofreader, Library Page.

First logged on HF: 5/92 (Prodigy) via a Mac SE & 2600 bps modem.

First Heinlein: Farmer in the Sky
Favorite Heinlein: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.  I admit I haven't
reread many of them yet; still haven't read _Tramp Royale_ although I
own it.

Political Leanings: registered Libertarian. I'm disgusted with them,
too, at the moment, but they still more accurately represent my
opinions than Repubs or Demos.

Religious Leanings: currently affiliated with the Roman Catholic
church.  Raised Protestant.  Basically Christian, but with some
Eastern philosophy thrown in.

What I do for fun besides read SF: collect comic books, mostly DC.
(Still haven't catalogued them, Fader!) 

I'm trying to get our home videos into digital format--any
recommendations as to the easiest to use software not exceeding $100
cost would be appreciated.  Going to purchase a digital (probably
MiniDV) camcorder soon and that will begat a firewire card & DVD
burner.

What I wish I would do:  get off my butt and find a dojo.  I've
fiddled with Shotokan Karate, Aikido, and Chin Na to some extent, but
I can only call myself a serious beginner at best.  Right now I would
have problems getting to any hall two or three times a week.  I would
be curious to know if bytor or JP have been doing anything lately, and
it's been way too long since I've heard a "Doc" story.  Guys?

So that's me!  What about you?

JT
 



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22931
From: David Wright" 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 16:49:14 -0400
Subject: Heinlein Readers Group Logs 09/18/2003 and 09/20/2003 now available
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

The Complete Logs for the Heinlein Readers Group meetings on Thursday
09/18/03 and Saturday 09/20/03 are now available.

http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/AIM_09-18-2003.html and
http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/AIM_09-20-2003.html

The topic was Heinlein's Heroines.

--
David Wright
http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/index.html
http://heinleinsociety.org

Help us prepare for the upcoming Centennial of the birthday of Robert A.
Heinlein
http://heinlein100.org

Anytime is a good time to join us in The Heinlein Society
http://heinleinsociety.org/membership.html
http://heinleinsociety.org/join.html






------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22932
From: David Wright" 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:04:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

David Wright (David The Elder as opposed to David The Younger Silver)
age 63, Married to Jennelou Earnhardt
two sons: David Jr and John, ages 37 & 35. one daughter-in-law

personal home page: http://home.alltel.net/dwrighsr

 occupation: Network Engineer and Programmer/Analyst for State Dept. of
Public Health for almost 17 years.

First logged on HF: Don't recall exactly. Sometime in the last 4-5 years.

 First Heinlein: 1953. Either Between Planets or Starman Jones, I can't
remember exactly.
Favorite Heinlein: Don't have a favorite. Still prefer most of the juveniles
over the others, but re-read them all
at least once a year.

Political Leanings: registered Republican, but tend to be more libertarian.

Religious Leanings: Raised Baptist, now a tonsured Reader in the Russian
Orthodox Church

What I do for fun besides read SF: Until recently, I was primary Webmaster
for The Heinlein Society. Now I am only doing the Heinlein Readers Group and
editing the logs for them. Also, practicing my Russian by listening to
internet.

What I wish I would do: Find time to learn ALL of the various programs that
I am interested in.Currently, spending most of my free time studying for
upgrade of CNE status to Netware 6.

David Wright


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22933
From: David Wright" 
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 17:09:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


David Wright <dwrighsr@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:3f6e1270.0@news.sff.net...
(snip)

> Favorite Heinlein: Don't have a favorite. Still prefer most of the
juveniles
> over the others, but re-read them all
> at least once a year.
>
Pleased to add that I am proud owner of a beautiful copy of _The Unpleasant
Profession of Jonathan Hoag_ as well as _Have Space Suit, Will Travel,
_Requiem_, and a German edition of _The Past Through Tomorrow_, all given to
me by Ginny Heinlein.

David Wright


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22934
From: les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 00:48:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Leslie Vrolyk - call me Les
age, ugh, 33 - but no gray hair yet
Married to John Paul (JP) for 4 LONG years ;-)
1 son, Jack Orion, 2 1/2 years old (cute as can be)
1 daughter, Virginia (Ginny) Athena (yes, we did name her after Mrs H)
Currently in Bellevue WA - dreaming of VA

Occupation: Um, how about "mom".  Used to be a programmer.  Not a very
good one either, but it was fun.  

First on HF: sometime in 1992, I don't get on much, but I'm hoping to
do so more often now.  It's a mid-year resolution.

First Heinlein: Stranger when I was in 10th grade.  

Favorite Heinlein:  Friday and Job, they're the ones I've reread the
most anyway.

Political/Religious leanings:  I'm an libathetarianist. 

For Fun:  I like to do crafts: tatting, sewing, recently started
working with wire.  I love games: Settlers of Catan, Cribbage,
Pinochle, Canasta, well, almost any game really.

What I wish I could do:  Get Linux to install and work on my old
computer.  (Darn Red Hat for being to hardware greedy)  Take up
fencing.  Keep up with the HF.

Still wondering what the difference between gray and grey is...
Les



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22935
From: les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 01:48:57 GMT
Subject: Re: "Squalls out on the Gulf Stream...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:23:50 -0400, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:

> If Les is lurking, I hope your parents are staying safe in
>Virginia Beach, they will feel some serious hurricane winds.


Hey Jake!  Thanks for asking after my folks.  They had no damage, but
have been without power for 3 days and are looking at another 3 days
without, likely.  Mom had to throw out all the food in the fridge and
the weather is hot and humid with no A/C, but otherwise they are in
good shape!  
How was TorCon?  I'm jealous.  Wish I coulda gone.

Les


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22936
From: les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 02:35:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:25:59 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:

>I find that I'm feeling somwhat ambivelent these days, on this
>subject. I wonder if we really need to worry about this as much as the
>government seems to. 
>

I don't believe the US government actually worries about terrorism per
se.  It's just an opportunist taking advantage of a situation.


> I have also thought that what is really needed is a
>ethical/moral code that doesn't have some religious bias as it's
>foundation, but really just looks at rightness/wrongness.


Having read all the other replies, I hesitate to put in my 2 cents,
but for what it's worth...  :-)
I think that ethical/moral codes actually have a foundation in our
socialization.  I don't think religion can claim sole responsibility.
But because religions happen to be a big part of the socialization
process for most people, it makes it look as if religion defines what
is right/wrong/etc.


>I think that as we evolve towards a "no religion" society/racial state
>the more repressive/fundamental religions will be the first to go.
>Flexibility is somewhat the key here, those that are less able to
>adapt have a much lesser survivability factor. (as in any evolutionary
>scenario) Islam seems to be one of the less able to do this of the
>western(as oppossed to taoism, hindi, buddhist) religions, & afaik,
>most of the terrorist are fundamentalists of even that religion. It
>seems to be no more than the flailings of a dying religion/culture. 

So you're saying that terrorism is simply the final death throes of a
dying religion?  Wouldn't we still have terrorism without religion?  I
think so.  Whether you call it religion or not, people will always
have ideas they are passionate about and willing to die/kill for.  So
should we be worried about terrorism in the short and long terms?
Yep.  I'm not sure humans can evolve out of this type of behavior. 

 And I know I'm right...


Les


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22937
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:30:42 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 02:35:14 GMT, les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk) wrote:

>I don't believe the US government actually worries about terrorism per
>se.  It's just an opportunist taking advantage of a situation.
>
Yes, to increase it's own power/control. Why I worry more about
Ashcroft than the terrorists.

>Having read all the other replies, I hesitate to put in my 2 cents,
>but for what it's worth...  :-)

Hell, we'll credit you a nickel at least<g>

>I think that ethical/moral codes actually have a foundation in our
>socialization.  I don't think religion can claim sole responsibility.
>But because religions happen to be a big part of the socialization
>process for most people, it makes it look as if religion defines what
>is right/wrong/etc.

Religion is usually the place most get thier sense of right/wrong once
they move beyond the strictly home enviroment. Renforcing this is that
dad/mom may also have instilled some religious element in the earlier
teachings.

>So you're saying that terrorism is simply the final death throes of a
>dying religion?  Wouldn't we still have terrorism without religion?  I
>think so.  Whether you call it religion or not, people will always
>have ideas they are passionate about and willing to die/kill for.  

Sure, we'll most likely have terrorism of some type, this round just
seems to me to be of this type. Like I said, I expect the next couple
of rounds to be even worse. Depending largely on your terms, there are
many other things that could be considered terrorism, ie Nazi Germany,
PolPot & the Khmer Rouge, the Crusades, the Inquisition, Salem, Boston
Tea Party, to name just a few.

>So should we be worried about terrorism in the short and long terms?
>Yep.  I'm not sure humans can evolve out of this type of behavior. 
>
I think we'd better be able to.

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22938
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:35:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:33:30 -0400, JT <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote:

>Ed & Fader--what is happening is that your email address has been used
>on some of the virus mailings out there--but the messages were not
>actually sent from you/your mail client/your account.
>
So does the fact that my e-mail address is on these things mean that
this virus is on my computer or not, if it is then AVG hasn't found
it.

So far I haven't gotten any at the new address, which reminds my I
guess I've got to change things here.

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22939
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:40:00 GMT
Subject: address check
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

should be apparent

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22940
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 05:06:22 -0500
Subject: Responses to roll call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT--

     I have been extremely happy with my Sony Digital 8 video camera.
It has the firewire (for video) and USB (for stills) connections, uses a
memory stick for the stills an a HI-8 casette for the digital video,
which is much more easily available to purchase that a dedicated digital
casette.  (It gets only one hour of digital on a casette compared to 2
for analog.) (I found myself in Hawaii without a spare casette.  I
picked one up very easily.)

    The feature that sold me on it in the first place is that it is
playback compatible with 8mm and HI-8 tapes.  That probably does help
most people.

     As to software, most cameras come with useable software.  MGI
photoshop came with the Sony; and also with the Vivitar digital (still)
camera I gave my wife for last Christmas.  I bought Roxio CD-ROM DVD
creator mostly to use to transfer audio from vinyl onto CD; but bought
the latest edition which includes the DVD burner, which hardware I don't
have yet.  It lists for $99.95 with $20 rebate, but I also saw it at
Sam's club for $79.  I recommend the package.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22941
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 05:12:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

All--
     A non-religious moral basis:

     Start with "Coventry".  I don't see the need for an unknowable
unproveable deity to make things right in the end after one is dead
here.

     General basis:  A set of rules that when followed by everybody
gives maximum potential reward to everybody.

     Two the the biggest shortcomings on our society is "Rules are for
others; I'm special" and its illegitimate offspring, selective
enforcement.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22942
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 05:29:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ed--

    I may disappoint you on this one, but I don't consider Ashcroft any
different or any worse than any number of politicians on the issue of
the constitution being an impediment to their programs. In fact, I
consider most liberals a bigger threat.

     But our loss of liberty is real and continuing.  OK, so the "in"
excuse right now is terrorism.  A few years ago, it was child porn.
Before that, it was illegal drugs.  Maybe next year, it will be illegal
immigration.  It simply never ends.

     My guess is that within 5 years, one will have to have an implanted
identity chip implanted to bypass the worst of airline security.
Otherwise, show up for your flight 24 hours in advance. . .

     And it won't do any good. The bad guys will come up with ways to
fake it or get around it.

     Do you know what it take to get airline personnel into the secure
area?   Sticking their identity card into an unmanned gate. . . .

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22943
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:38:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Eli Hestermann
31, married to Danielle (Dani) for 10 years next May
residence: Greenville, SC as of 11 August

occupation: Assistant Professor of Biology at Furman University
Before that, I was doing breast cancer research in Boston, and many of 
the folks here can remember when I was a bright-eyed graduate student.

First on HF: sometime in late 94 or early 95 - I saw a message on a.f.h 
that the group had moved here and was curious enough to check it out. I 
remember Jim Gifford calling the HF "clubbish" or something of that 
sort, at the time. I'd say the club's treated him pretty well. [g]

First Heinlein: The Star Beast - I think I was 8 or 9
Favorite Heinlein: probably The Cat Who Walks Through Walls

Political leanings: a solid centrist When I lived in MA, a friend 
thought I was so conservative that he (jokingly) started giving me Rush 
Limbaugh paraphenalia. Within a few weeks of moving here, our Pastor's 
wife (jokingly) called me Marxist during Bible study. I like to have the 
illusion of a choice when I vote, although living in IN, MA, and SC has 
severely impaired my ability to sustain that illusion.

Religious leanings: I'm a member of the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. 
The new congregation seems to be a perfect fit for me, because they 
ignore some of the more restrictive doctrines handed down from the body 
as a whole.

What I do for fun: sing, teach (no, really - I get paid to teach 
biology, but I teach Bible studies and ancient history for fun), hike, 
paddle, play racquetball

Who I read besides RAH: John Barnes, Neal Stephenson, Elizabeth Moon, 
Debra Doyle and Jim MacDonald, Susan Shwartz, Kristine Smith - part of 
the reason I love sff.net is that with the exception of Stephenson, I 
can interact with each of these folks. Lately I've been in a mode of 
knowing the author before ever buying a book

Music: I have a fairly extensive collection, and like everything from 
progressive rock and metal (Yes, Asia, Dream Theater) to harder and 
classic rock (Rush, Boston, Eagles, early Chicago) to 80s pop (later 
Chicago, Bryan Adams) to Christian rock and folk (Jars of Clay, Rich 
Mullins) to big band (Bob Mintzer) to small group and solo jazz (Spyro 
Gyra, Gary Burton) to classical and show tunes. My tastes continue to 
widen: my favorite new band is sort of Christian goth (Evanescence) and 
since moving here I've been exposed to some C&W I like.

-- 
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22944
From: Jane Davitt 
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 09:06:27 -0400
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Jane Davitt, 39, English living in Ontario. Married, two daughters, 8 and 2.

Stay at home mum, do p/t childminding for my friend's 5 year old twins.

Politically null as I have no vote in Canada; socialist by upbringing, 
liberal by instinct.

First Heinlein was Space Suit and Space Family Stone; borrowed them both 
the same day when I was 11.

Currently all my energy goes into writing. At the moment it's Buffy 
fanfic (see sig for my page). I'm proud that since May 2002 I've written 
just over 100 stories and since Feb 2003, my web page has had over 
30,000 hits. I also have my Heinlein articles on that page and a link to 
the Heinlein Journal and I get feedback on them as well as the gay 
vampire smut, which is nice ;-)

I have an LJ and just met a Heinlein friend from the sff groups over 
there, which was a lovely surprise.

Now Lauren is at pre school three mornings a week, I plan to start an 
original story...if I can beat off the Buffy plot bunnies.

I'm quieter on the Heinlein side but hey, I'm still here and I've 
preordered my NEW Heinlein book and can't wait :-)

Jane


-- 
Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at
http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22945
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:31:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Charlie:   Thanks, that was stated better than I had put it and
covered more ground as well.  
   

Ed J

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 05:29:56 -0500, Charles Graft
<chasgraft@aol.com> wrote:

>Ed--
>
>    I may disappoint you on this one, but I don't consider Ashcroft any
>different or any worse than any number of politicians on the issue of
>the constitution being an impediment to their programs. In fact, I
>consider most liberals a bigger threat.
>
>     But our loss of liberty is real and continuing.  OK, so the "in"
>excuse right now is terrorism.  A few years ago, it was child porn.
>Before that, it was illegal drugs.  Maybe next year, it will be illegal
>immigration.  It simply never ends.
>
>     My guess is that within 5 years, one will have to have an implanted
>identity chip implanted to bypass the worst of airline security.
>Otherwise, show up for your flight 24 hours in advance. . .
>
>     And it won't do any good. The bad guys will come up with ways to
>fake it or get around it.
>
>     Do you know what it take to get airline personnel into the secure
>area?   Sticking their identity card into an unmanned gate. . . .


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22946
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 14:39:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 07:14:25 -0700, John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
wrote:

>Ed Johnson wrote:
>>     Frankly I am a bit surprised that in this group more people
>> haven't concurred with you about Ashcroft.
>
>You only need to post when you disagree.  :-)

JP:    Point well taken <g>.  You're right: I haven't found too many
'friends of big government' here on the Forum over the years.  I,
too am one of the many who nod in agreement rather that post an
assent.
>
>So maybe everyone else agree.  Or maybe they're just
>not here, or are apathetic.

Hmmn...  apathy would account for that lack of posting.

Ed J


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22947
From: cdozo 
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:08:44 -0500
Subject: Shameless Familial Promotion
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Hey All,

My sister Nancy and her family were on NPR's Morning edition this AM. 
They were talking about her husband Mark and their daughter Rae's new 
book, "12,000 Miles in the Nick of Time."

You can hear the interview by going to 
http://www.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.php?prgDate=22-Sep-2003&prgId=3
and 
clicking on the link "Book Chronicles Family's Attempt to Broaden
Teens'  View." It's toward the bottom of the page.

You can find out more about the book by going to 
http://www.booknoise.net/12000miles/index.html

Carol

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22948
From: JT 
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:27:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:35:55 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:

>On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:33:30 -0400, JT <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote:

>So does the fact that my e-mail address is on these things mean that
>this virus is on my computer or not, if it is then AVG hasn't found
>it.
>
No, you most likely don't have the virus, the spammers just harvested
your email address somewhere.  Like SFF Net posts illegally lifted
from the SFF Net server, or a post you made on a website somewhere
where you displayed your email address.  Or the address book of an
infected machine.

>So far I haven't gotten any at the new address, which reminds my I
>guess I've got to change things here.

Well, when you do, post a variation on the address like I do.  Enough
so that an automated program will fail the address, but a human could
figure out what to do.  And in the body of your posts, if you have to
mention an address, separate the address out with spaces a la  J T @ s
f f . n e t  or with words instead of punctuation like  JTatSFFdotNet.
A human will figure out what to do, a harvesting bot won't--at least
for now. :(

I only get spammed by "mass mailers" that try every conceivable
combination because I don't give out my email address except privately
to companies that have a decent privacy policy.

In contrast, I get three or four spams a day at work because I posted
about 5 times on USENET about five years ago, and they no longer care
if they target a .gov address. (*&$#)(#!!

JT





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22949
From: JT 
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:33:59 -0400
Subject: Re: Responses to roll call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 05:06:22 -0500, Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
wrote:

>JT--
>
>     I have been extremely happy with my Sony Digital 8 video camera.
Charlie, what model?  How is the auto stabilizer?  And do you find
that it takes good indoor video without a light?  (Those are the two
things we're most worried about finding in a model, aside from a color
preview screen.)
 We're leaning towards a Sony, but there are sooo many models.

Thanks for the data....

JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22950
From: JT 
Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:35:44 -0400
Subject: Re: address check
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:40:00 GMT, fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
wrote:
>should be apparent
Good Grampa! <G,D,&R, VVF>

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22951
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 23 Sep 2003 06:10:56 GMT
Subject: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Jane--

Write a "Buffy Summers is a Heinlein Woman" piece and I like your chances
for getting it on www.heinleinsociety.org.  I know the webmaster. ;)

Best. Geo

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22952
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:34:36 GMT
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:33:30 -0400, JT <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote:

>As I promised in another thread, here's the place to announce
>yourself, update us on anything you'd like in your personal life, TV
>habits, new "reads", whatever!
>
Greg Johnson (aka Fader) 5/6/55
Formly - Ex NYC cabbie, bartender,furniture salesman, paste-up/
mechanical artist
Currently - Mostly retired (TFIC) but work PT at a Head shop/New
Age/Collectibles/Jewelry Store which is adding a Exotic/Carnivoris
plants & Reptile room as we speak.
SO: Beth Auslander (just celebrated 18yrs)
Other SOs: Isis (17yrs) & Merlin(4yrs) (feline variety), Loki(1 1/2
yrs) (Bearded Dragon variety)
Currently living in Indy 

First on HF: 10/92

First Heinlein read: The Door into Summer

Favorite Heinleins (subject to momentary changes): Glory Road, Friday,
Stranger, Job

Other Favorite Authors: Michael Moorcock, Alfred Bester, Cordwainer
Smith, Jack Chalker JRR Tolkein, Charles DeLint, Stephen King, EE
"Doc" Smith.....etc

Politics: Anybody's guess, I seem to be partaking of some of all
flavors these days, depends on which issue we're talking. 
Against loss of personal choice/responsibility in all things.

Hobbies: Cooking (I'm not bad), Computer games ( RPG & TB Strategy
mostly), Reading, & trying to keep up with life (which I fail at
regularly { I'm never going to die, if the saying is correct<g>})

That's it I guess if I've left anything out I & you will hear about
it.

BTW, I'm from Brooklyn<g>

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22953
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 08:05:29 GMT
Subject: Re: address check
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 22:35:44 -0400, JT <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote:

Ok, guess that worked

>Good Grampa! <G,D,&R, VVF>
 Run as fast as you like, I know where you live.

Doesn't surprise me about the comics not being catalogged yet, it was
only at the Indy gathering that we talked about it, RSN,I'm sure.<BFG>

Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22954
From: Jane Davitt 
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:47:12 -0400
Subject: Re: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

georule@civilwarstlouis.com wrote:
> Jane--
> 
> Write a "Buffy Summers is a Heinlein Woman" piece and I like your chances
> for getting it on www.heinleinsociety.org.  I know the webmaster. ;)
> 
> Best. Geo
Heh, I might have a go at that; thanks :-)

Jane

-- 
Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at
http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html
http://www.fanfiction.net/~Jane Davitt


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22955
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:18:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT:   Is this the 'address spoofing' that I have heard about?  Where
someone is using your address as there own return address?

Ed J

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:33:30 -0400, JT <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote:

>On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 22:57:06 -0400, Ed Johnson
><eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:
>
>Ed & Fader--what is happening is that your email address has been used
>on some of the virus mailings out there--but the messages were not
>actually sent from you/your mail client/your account.
>
>There's not a lot you can do about it short of implementing a very
>serious whitelist/blacklist solution.
>
>SFF Net has done a great job of implementing spam filtering via
>proprietary rulesets and a "junk" folder online.  I only get a few
>spam each week and only 20-30 in the junk folder, some of which are
>legitimate but which might not be very strict on the actual assembly
>of the email header, which makes them "suspect".
>
>I'm also very careful about giving out my email address online.
>
>JT
>
>>Fader:  I have been getting those mysterious "returned mailings"
>>without ever having sent out any mail for a couple of weeks now.
>>It has me concerned, thought I have fully checked for virus
>>infestation.
>>
>>Ed J
>>
>>On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 16:56:21 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 20 Sep 2003 06:24:34 -0400, Eli Hestermann
>>><ehestermann@charter.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Thanks, Ed. Selecting "repain and silently delete if unsuccessful" did 
>>>>the trick. My1500 new messages are coming through without any 
>>>>intervention on my part.
>>>>
>>>I got 10 of the MS update ( or variation today) 1 yesterday, but Today
>>>I also got 12 returned mail, that I didn't send in the first place.
>>>All had a attached mim file, of which the *.mim was a random string of
>>>letters. So they are not just exe files. Be careful out there.
>>>
>>>Fader 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22956
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:18:42 -0400
Subject: Re: address check
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader:
    Hopefully, your new e-address works inbound and outbound.

Ed J

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 06:40:00 GMT, fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net
(Fader) wrote:

>should be apparent


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22957
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:18:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT:  I have been unable to receive any new postings on our newsgroup
using Agent.  Are you aware of anyone else having a problem getting
messages from the Forum?

Ed J


On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:33:30 -0400, JT <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote:

>As I promised in another thread, here's the place to announce
>yourself, update us on anything you'd like in your personal life, TV
>habits, new "reads", whatever!
>
>John Tilden (go by "JT" or rarely "JusTin" here)
>age 34, married to Christine
>two boys: Daniel & David
>residence: near Baltimore, MD.
>
>personal home page: w w w. t i l d e n s. n e t
>
>occupation: most recently supervisor of small R&D computer lab helping
>to service application development at a large federal agency. Past
>experience includes Email Administrator, Systems Analyst, Claims Rep,
>Prodigy Science Fiction BB Leader, Day Laborer, Copy
>Editor/Proofreader, Library Page.
>
>First logged on HF: 5/92 (Prodigy) via a Mac SE & 2600 bps modem.
>
>First Heinlein: Farmer in the Sky
>Favorite Heinlein: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.  I admit I haven't
>reread many of them yet; still haven't read _Tramp Royale_ although I
>own it.
>
>Political Leanings: registered Libertarian. I'm disgusted with them,
>too, at the moment, but they still more accurately represent my
>opinions than Repubs or Demos.
>
>Religious Leanings: currently affiliated with the Roman Catholic
>church.  Raised Protestant.  Basically Christian, but with some
>Eastern philosophy thrown in.
>
>What I do for fun besides read SF: collect comic books, mostly DC.
>(Still haven't catalogued them, Fader!) 
>
>I'm trying to get our home videos into digital format--any
>recommendations as to the easiest to use software not exceeding $100
>cost would be appreciated.  Going to purchase a digital (probably
>MiniDV) camcorder soon and that will begat a firewire card & DVD
>burner.
>
>What I wish I would do:  get off my butt and find a dojo.  I've
>fiddled with Shotokan Karate, Aikido, and Chin Na to some extent, but
>I can only call myself a serious beginner at best.  Right now I would
>have problems getting to any hall two or three times a week.  I would
>be curious to know if bytor or JP have been doing anything lately, and
>it's been way too long since I've heard a "Doc" story.  Guys?
>
>So that's me!  What about you?
>
>JT
> 
>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22958
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:31:38 -0400
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT:   I just found out that sff.net changed their port.  From port
119 to 1119.  If anyone else has Agent of Free Agent they won't be
able to post or download here without this change in the "Agent.ini"
file.
    Ed J

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:18:43 -0400, Ed Johnson
<eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:

>JT:  I have been unable to receive any new postings on our newsgroup
>using Agent.  Are you aware of anyone else having a problem getting
>messages from the Forum?
>
>Ed J
>
>
>On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 14:33:30 -0400, JT <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote:
>
>>As I promised in another thread, here's the place to announce
>>yourself, update us on anything you'd like in your personal life, TV
>>habits, new "reads", whatever!
>>
>>John Tilden (go by "JT" or rarely "JusTin" here)
>>age 34, married to Christine
>>two boys: Daniel & David
>>residence: near Baltimore, MD.
>>
>>personal home page: w w w. t i l d e n s. n e t
>>
>>occupation: most recently supervisor of small R&D computer lab helping
>>to service application development at a large federal agency. Past
>>experience includes Email Administrator, Systems Analyst, Claims Rep,
>>Prodigy Science Fiction BB Leader, Day Laborer, Copy
>>Editor/Proofreader, Library Page.
>>
>>First logged on HF: 5/92 (Prodigy) via a Mac SE & 2600 bps modem.
>>
>>First Heinlein: Farmer in the Sky
>>Favorite Heinlein: The Moon is a Harsh Mistress.  I admit I haven't
>>reread many of them yet; still haven't read _Tramp Royale_ although I
>>own it.
>>
>>Political Leanings: registered Libertarian. I'm disgusted with them,
>>too, at the moment, but they still more accurately represent my
>>opinions than Repubs or Demos.
>>
>>Religious Leanings: currently affiliated with the Roman Catholic
>>church.  Raised Protestant.  Basically Christian, but with some
>>Eastern philosophy thrown in.
>>
>>What I do for fun besides read SF: collect comic books, mostly DC.
>>(Still haven't catalogued them, Fader!) 
>>
>>I'm trying to get our home videos into digital format--any
>>recommendations as to the easiest to use software not exceeding $100
>>cost would be appreciated.  Going to purchase a digital (probably
>>MiniDV) camcorder soon and that will begat a firewire card & DVD
>>burner.
>>
>>What I wish I would do:  get off my butt and find a dojo.  I've
>>fiddled with Shotokan Karate, Aikido, and Chin Na to some extent, but
>>I can only call myself a serious beginner at best.  Right now I would
>>have problems getting to any hall two or three times a week.  I would
>>be curious to know if bytor or JP have been doing anything lately, and
>>it's been way too long since I've heard a "Doc" story.  Guys?
>>
>>So that's me!  What about you?
>>
>>JT
>> 
>>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22959
From: David M. Silver" 
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 00:04:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <tb02nv8717295ogi2mnp5jum59jc9kmccg@4ax.com>,
 Ed Johnson <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:

> JT:   I just found out that sff.net changed their port.  From port
> 119 to 1119.  If anyone else has Agent of Free Agent they won't be
> able to post or download here without this change in the "Agent.ini"
> file.
>     Ed J
> 

For various newsreaders, see, http://www.sff.net/maintenance.asp
for instructions how to adapt to the change. 

Trying to use MT-Newswatcher on the Mac should result in a pop-up 
telling you to go see that page.

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22960
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:57:28 GMT
Subject: Re: address check
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:18:42 -0400, Ed Johnson
<eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:

>Fader:
>    Hopefully, your new e-address works inbound and outbound.
>
????????

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22961
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:02:39 GMT
Subject: Trouble connecting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Big Charlie 's having trouble getting on the forum, he's using
Netscape, he said the maintenance page said he didn't have to do
anything, but he's still having trouble. If anybody's got any ideas
drop him a line. You can get his e-mail from me if you need it.

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22962
From: Jeffry Dwight 
Date: 24 Sep 2003 08:13:49 GMT
Subject: Re: Trouble connecting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

If Big Charlie doesn't have an account here, he's not using netscape.news.sff.net,
he's using news.sff.net.  Therefore he *does* have to change his settings.
 We need to clear that up in the documentation.

Tell him to change his news server name from

   news.sff.net

to

   news.sff.net:1119

and he should get in fine.

- j.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22963
From: David M. Silver" 
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 02:01:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Trouble connecting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3f71523d.0@news.sff.net>,
 Jeffry Dwight <jeffry.dwight@removethis part-greyware.com> wrote:

> If Big Charlie doesn't have an account here, he's not using 
> netscape.news.sff.net,
> he's using news.sff.net.  Therefore he *does* have to change his settings.
>  We need to clear that up in the documentation.
> 
> Tell him to change his news server name from
> 
>    news.sff.net
> 
> to
> 
>    news.sff.net:1119
> 
> and he should get in fine.
> 
> - j.

Or, in more detail,

Instructions for Mozilla Mail & News 
Click on Window in the menu bar, and select Mail and Newsgroups, or 
press Ctrl-2 
Hightlight the SFF.Net account, and right-click 
Select Properties 
Under Mail and Newsgroups Account Settings, select Server Settings 
Change 119 in the Port box to 1119 
Click OK 
N.B. These instructions should also work for Netscape 7.x and 
Thunderbird -- let us know if you try it

-- 
David M. Silver www.heinleinsociety.org
"The Lieutenant expects your names to shine!"
Robert Anson Heinlein, USNA '29, Lt.(jg), USN, R'td, 1907-88

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22964
From: Wendy of NJ 
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:52:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Wendy Sheridan, 45 already, married to Rich, daughter Ariel. Home in New 
Joisey. (Exit 131)

Current occupation: contract technical writer for a Telecommunications 
company. Have a BSEE degree, and used to design weapons systems for the 
Navy and then computer hardware. I also have a freelance business doing 
writing and web development and a "mobile" store that I'm trying to get 
online.

First found HS a couple of years ago (like 2 or 3)

First Heinlien: Don't really remember, but it was very likely a short 
story in an anthology (like "The Roads Must Roll") or possibly Podkayne.

Favorite Heinlein: Not sure - Friday, Stranger, Moon is a Harsh Mistress 
are all top runners.

Other authors I like (in no particular order): Douglas Adams, Bear, 
Brin, Benford, Niven, MacCaffery, Ellison, Silverberg, Asimov, Card. 
this is by no means an exhaustive list.

Political leanings: vascillating between liberal and libertarian, 
depending on the subject. Mostly disgusted about the entire thing.

Religious leanings: Pagan with a definite Eastern bent. I'm currently 
studying the Katha Upanishad, Esawaren's commentary in particular, and 
getting a much better concept of what "Maya" and "Karma" are.

What I do for little or no money: Music - I have 1 CD out, and am 
working on a second one (I sing and play piano, slight guitar, learning 
bass, and returning to the cello), painting, quilting, sewing (costumes, 
mostly), needlepoint, knitting, weaving, beading, bellydancing, cooking, 
gardening, writing SF (unpublished as of yet),  and attend SF 
conventions and Pagan festivals. I blame Heinlein for my type A hobby 
list (I used that list from "Time Enough for Love" - I think it was - 
you know, the paragraph that ends in "specialization is for inects" - as 
a sort of check off list for things I need to learn. I've got most of 
them down by now)

What I wish I would do: Finish a story and get the darned thing 
published. And drop about 75 pounds.





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22965
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 24 Sep 2003 16:49:21 GMT
Subject: Re: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Jane--

Must be something there; Deb and I are ardent Buffy fans too. And from a
RAH-o'-phile pov, more than happy to encourage Buffy fans to read a RAH
or two, particularly the yung'uns.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22966
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 24 Sep 2003 16:56:33 GMT
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Name: Geo Rule

Spousal Unit: D.A. "Cuddlebunny" Houdek Rule, met on HF (Prodigy) 1992,
married 1995.

RAH-ian Greatest Hits: "Kill the Apes!", "RAH the Pedophile ('Rub her feet'",
Stranger vs Stranger, RAH: Murder Suspect (co-author with Cuddlebunny).

Politics: Moderately liberal conservative with libertarian instincts.

Enthusiasms: Heinlein Society (www.heinleinsociety.org), Civil War in Missouri
(see one of our other sites www.civilwarstlouis.com), my new 21-speed mountain
bike.

Recent good news:  Heinlein Prize (www.heinleinprize.com); having a CW article
accepted at a 105 year old scholarly journal.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22967
From: Deb@sff.net (D.A. Houdek)
Date: 24 Sep 2003 18:33:33 GMT
Subject: Re: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Jane--
  Don't forget to include Willow, definitely an RAH woman right down to
the red hair!  Deb

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22968
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:08:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Roll Call 2003

  Deb Houdek Rule
  
  I write sf/f as D. A. Houdek, and non-fiction Civil War history as
D. H. Rule. SF Stories currently in print: "Those We Left Behind", and
"Adjustments" at Private Galaxy ezine. Upcoming story "Flowers on the
Moon". And Geo just pitched a non-fiction article for me to write at a
scholarly history magazine (they said they're interested) about the
undertaker family from St. Louis who sent the hearse to carry Abraham
Lincoln's body back to be buried--this very Union family had hardcore
Confederate secret service ties. The Civil War in St. Louis often has
a sf/f quality to it.

  First on the Heinlein Forum April 1992. There met future spouse, Geo
Rule, married April 1995.  

  In 'real' life I'm a television broadcast engineer running Master
Control at a dual TV station (runs 2 channels), NBC and WB. 

  Also do several websites, including the new Heinlein Prize Trust
website at http://www.heinleinprize.com . I'm thrilled with the idea
that the Heinleins, even after they're gone, are working to provide us
the future in space they, and we, envisioned. 
 
  First Heinlein: "The Man Who Sold the Moon" collection at age 8 or
9. 

  Favorite Heinlein: "Time Enough For Love" and "Rolling Stones"

  Coolest Heinlein fan moment: At Torcon, at the Heinlein Awards
dinner, Amy Baxter let me wear Robert Heinlein's 1929 Annapolis class
ring and Ginny's wedding ring for a while. I was wearing them when Art
Dula of the Heinlein Prize Trust talked about how the Heinleins'
literary estate money is going directly into promoting our future in
space. 

  Deb
  http://www.dahoudek.com
  http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
  http://www.robertaheinlein.com
  http://www.heinleinsociety.org
  http://www.heinleinprize.com

  

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22969
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:28:53 -0400
Subject: Re: address check
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In. Re. :
>????????
I had a couple of e-mails bounced back to me when sent to sbc etc.
   It seems to work fine now.

Ed J


On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 07:57:28 GMT, fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net
(Fader) wrote:

>On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:18:42 -0400, Ed Johnson
><eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:
>
>>Fader:
>>    Hopefully, your new e-address works inbound and outbound.
>>
>????????
>
>Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22970
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:34:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Trouble connecting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader:   I forwarded some instructions to Charlie.

Ed J

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 08:02:39 GMT, fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net
(Fader) wrote:

>Big Charlie 's having trouble getting on the forum, he's using
>Netscape, he said the maintenance page said he didn't have to do
>anything, but he's still having trouble. If anybody's got any ideas
>drop him a line. You can get his e-mail from me if you need it.
>
>Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22971
From: Jane Davitt 
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:42:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

D.A. Houdek wrote:
> Jane--
>   Don't forget to include Willow, definitely an RAH woman right down to
> the red hair!  Deb
Heh, yes; but no twins in sight ;-)

Jane

-- 
Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at
http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html
http://www.fanfiction.net/~Jane Davitt


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22972
From: Jane Davitt 
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 17:43:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

georule@civilwarstlouis.com wrote:

> Jane--
> 
> Must be something there; Deb and I are ardent Buffy fans too. And from a
> RAH-o'-phile pov, more than happy to encourage Buffy fans to read a RAH
> or two, particularly the yung'uns.

I've found many crossovers between Heinlein/Buffy fans and never quite 
pinned down what the common ground is. Interesting...

Jane

-- 
Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at
http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html
http://www.fanfiction.net/~Jane Davitt


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22973
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:01:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

>>   Don't forget to include Willow, definitely an RAH woman right down to
>> the red hair!  Deb
>Heh, yes; but no twins in sight ;-)

  Hmmm... could stretch the parallels a touch and include the
Willow/evil vampire Willow, and the one with Xander split in two (I
love Xander, my favorite character--he's the boys from the Heinlein
juveniles). 

  Willow's girlfriend-with-a-tongue-stud comment is certainly just a
shade away from spanking-with-a-sword comments of RAH's.

  Deb

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22974
From: JT 
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:35:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 22:18:41 -0400, Ed Johnson
<eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:

>JT:   Is this the 'address spoofing' that I have heard about?  Where
>someone is using your address as there own return address?
>
>Ed J

Well, it depends in what context you have heard it.  Yes, it is
certainly a form of spoofing.  In this case, the "headers" within the
email have false information in them.

There is another level of spoofing at the 'packet' level in which the
actual stream of data is made to appear as if it is coming from a
different "IP Address". This is the kind of thing you'd see attempted
if someone was trying to gain access into a system (or pass false
information for some other reason).  It requires a bit of knowledge
about the exact way traffic is getting to and from the system you're
hacking.

While I know enough about it to give you the summary version, that's
about all I know.

What all this stuff points out is that the current suite of tools that
are the standards for the Internet is inherently insecure.  There are
things to be done to ensure authenticated traffic, but they are not
trivial and not anywhere near agreed-upon as standards.  If anyone
else out there has a better educated guess as to how many years it
will take for some sort of authentication authority to spring up that
the masses can use (and that sysops can admin without major headache
;)  I'd like to hear it as a part of the discussion!

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22975
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 18:57:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Trouble connecting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader & others--
     Thanks, guys; I'm back.  After a couple of false starts, I managed
to get into communication.  Netscape does not allow one to simply change
a port address; you have to set it up as a new server.  So I had to do
some sorting and "mark as read" to get things squared  away.  But I'm
back.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22976
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:02:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ed--
     Come to think of it, I think Ashcroft is less of a danger than the
PC crowd.  Why?  Because the crowd is just waiting for him to fall on
his (choose body part) so that they can run him out of office.

     I think George Wallace had it right (probably the only thing he
ever got right) referring to the two parties that "There's not a dime's
worth of difference between them".

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
remaining good eye.'"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22977
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:12:37 -0400
Subject: Re: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Jane Davitt wrote:

> I've found many crossovers between Heinlein/Buffy fans and never quite 
> pinned down what the common ground is. Interesting...

Our dazzling intellects and stunning good looks?

-- 
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22978
From: Jane Davitt 
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:25:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Trouble connecting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Charles Graft wrote:
> Fader & others--
>      Thanks, guys; I'm back.  After a couple of false starts, I managed
> to get into communication.  Netscape does not allow one to simply change
> a port address; you have to set it up as a new server.  So I had to do
> some sorting and "mark as read" to get things squared  away.  But I'm
> back.
> 
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
> 
> "Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
> remaining good eye.'"
> 
> 
I use Netscape and I just went to server settings and added an extra 
'1'. Not sure why you couldn't, unless you're on a different version but 
at least you're back :-)

Jane

-- 
Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at
http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html
http://www.fanfiction.net/~Jane Davitt


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22979
From: Jane Davitt 
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:26:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Eli Hestermann wrote:

> Jane Davitt wrote:
> 
>> I've found many crossovers between Heinlein/Buffy fans and never quite 
>> pinned down what the common ground is. Interesting...
> 
> 
> Our dazzling intellects and stunning good looks?
> 
Heh, heh. I think you know that isn't quite what I meant, though 
obviously perfectly true ;-)

Jane

-- 
Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at
http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html
http://www.fanfiction.net/~Jane Davitt


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22980
From: Jane Davitt 
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 20:29:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Deb Houdek Rule wrote:

>>>  Don't forget to include Willow, definitely an RAH woman right down to
>>>the red hair!  Deb
>>
>>Heh, yes; but no twins in sight ;-)
> 
> 
>   Hmmm... could stretch the parallels a touch and include the
> Willow/evil vampire Willow, and the one with Xander split in two (I
> love Xander, my favorite character--he's the boys from the Heinlein
> juveniles). 
> 
>   Willow's girlfriend-with-a-tongue-stud comment is certainly just a
> shade away from spanking-with-a-sword comments of RAH's.
> 
>   Deb

Xander is the outwardly normal loser with a hero's heart ...I suppose 
you love The Zeppo episode then? He shone in that at the end.

Kennedy ::shudder:: I hated Kennedy. Can't we pretend she never 
happened? :-)

Jane

-- 
Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at
http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html
http://www.fanfiction.net/~Jane Davitt


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22981
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 25 Sep 2003 03:23:34 GMT
Subject: Re: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Tossing out random ideas here:

Buffy + Willow are the Heinlein Woman.  Buffy, while having great native
intelligence, doesn't have the love of learning that the typical HW does.
Willow does; she loves arcane knowledge --building a starship also requires
arcane knowledge; only the spells are different. Willow has that 45 degrees
from anything logic at times that works wonderfully; Buffy the totally pragmatic.

Zander is the Heinlein juvenile pov character. Noble dufus being controlled/bailed
out by the women around him.  See COTG for a good example, BP for another.

Giles is Doc from RP, or Kettle Belly from Gulf; more the latter, at least
early on. Towards the end more Sam from Starman Jones.

Buffy has a whole Star thing going, particularly towards the end as she
is growing into her responsibilities. She loves those around her, but is
willing to sacrafice them for the greater good if it is required. Constantly
bitching/moaning about the burden of it all; in the final analysis totally
unwilling to give up the role.

Also some of the lady from Gulf there trying to teach those around her to
be a superman. Good luck with that.

Best. Geo

www.heinleinsociety.org
www.robertaheinlein.com
www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22982
From: les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:02:29 GMT
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 07:34:36 GMT, fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
wrote:


>
>Hobbies: Cooking (I'm not bad), 

I'll say you're not bad!  Damn, but I'm hungry for a meatball!

Les


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22983
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 05:45:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Excellent analysis, Geo!

You mentioned Buffy as Star. I think it's pretty easy to cast Spike as 
Oscar in that story.

Too bad Anya couldn't get Xander "rickety all through," whatever that 
means. [g]

-- 
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22984
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:06:46 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Wed, 24 Sep 2003 19:02:43 -0500, Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
wrote:

<snipped all>

>"Seen on the door to a light-wave lab: 'Do not look into laser with
>remaining good eye.'"
>
I really love this one<bfg>

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22985
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:12:19 GMT
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:02:29 GMT, les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk) wrote:

>
>I'll say you're not bad!  Damn, but I'm hungry for a meatball!
>
Well, you can have a virtual one anytime, ( or a remembered one if
your memorey has other sensory data stored) Or you guys can head this
way. I have a thought on this, for a Gathering in the future to
celebrate my 50th birthday, but it's a ways off yet. (2005)

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22986
From: David Wright" 
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:51:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Shameless Familial Promotion
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"cdozo" <cadozo@planet-save.comDELETE> wrote in message
news:vksumvkms806lnbi99317toctlphm3543l@4ax.com...
> Hey All,
>
> My sister Nancy and her family were on NPR's Morning edition this AM.
> They were talking about her husband Mark and their daughter Rae's new
> book, "12,000 Miles in the Nick of Time."
>
> You can hear the interview by going to
> http://www.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.php?prgDate=22-Sep-2003&prgId=3
> and

I found it at  Family Travel in the Nick of Time
-- 
David Wright

Join us at the next Heinlein Readers Group, Thursday October 23 at 9:00 P.M.
EDT
The topic will be 'Time Travel vs. Free Will - is there really a conflict?"

See http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info for instructions



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22987
From: cdozo 
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:15:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


Hey Fader,

We're the same age!

Carol (aka SpaceCadet)

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:12:19 GMT, fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
wrote:

>Well, you can have a virtual one anytime, ( or a remembered one if
>your memorey has other sensory data stored) Or you guys can head this
>way. I have a thought on this, for a Gathering in the future to
>celebrate my 50th birthday, but it's a ways off yet. (2005)
>
>Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22988
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 25 Sep 2003 13:47:30 GMT
Subject: THS at Torcon Pics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Get 'em while they're hot!

http://www.heinleinsociety.org/conventions/torcon2003/index.html

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22989
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 25 Sep 2003 14:14:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

And preacher guy is Igli, while the First is the never-born, eater-of-souls.
Hmm. That kind of holds together.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22990
From: Jane Davitt 
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:33:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

georule@civilwarstlouis.com wrote:

> Tossing out random ideas here:
> 
Thanks! I've been chewing over some approaches and I'll tackle it

when I've just polished off a couple of fics I'm midway through.

Jane


-- 
Read my Buffy the Vampire Slayer fiction at
http://members.rogers.com/jdavitt01/index.html
http://www.fanfiction.net/~Jane Davitt


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22991
From: Francesco Spreafico" 
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 21:48:01 +0200
Subject: Re: THS at Torcon Pics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

georule@civilwarstlouis.com wrote:

> http://www.heinleinsociety.org/conventions/torcon2003/index.html

And the THS site gets better and better!
I hadn't seen the new layout yet... kudos to who made it!

-- 
Francesco
http://www.dimensionedelta.net/heinlein/



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22992
From: David Wright" 
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 15:51:48 -0400
Subject: Re: THS at Torcon Pics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Francesco Spreafico" <laz@libero.it> wrote in message
news:3f734681.0@news.sff.net...
> georule@civilwarstlouis.com wrote:
>
> > http://www.heinleinsociety.org/conventions/torcon2003/index.html
>
> And the THS site gets better and better!
> I hadn't seen the new layout yet... kudos to who made it!
>

Deb Rule took over the site from me. She has done a beautiful job. I am
still maintaining the Readers Group log files on the site.
-- 
David Wright

Join us at the next Heinlein Readers Group, Thursday October 23 at 9:00 P.M.
EDT
The topic will be 'Time Travel vs. Free Will - is there really a conflict?"

See http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info for instructions
Go to top of that page for latest logs.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22993
From: Eli Hestermann 
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 05:11:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Buffy and RAH
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

georule@civilwarstlouis.com wrote:

>And preacher guy is Igli, while the First is the never-born, eater-of-souls.
>Hmm. That kind of holds together.
>  
>
Dunno. I like that big fat demon that lived in a mud bath for Igli. [g]

-- 
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@charter.net
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22994
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:27:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:15:26 -0500, cdozo
<cadozo@planet-save.comDELETE> wrote:

>
>Hey Fader,
>
>We're the same age!
>
"Women don't have ages, just birthdays" (OWTTE)- Mama M<?>
So when's yours?

Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22995
From: cdozo 
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:34:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


06/24/youknowtheyear. : )

When's yours?

Carol

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:27:31 GMT, fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
wrote:

>On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 08:15:26 -0500, cdozo
><cadozo@planet-save.comDELETE> wrote:
>
>>
>>Hey Fader,
>>
>>We're the same age!
>>
>"Women don't have ages, just birthdays" (OWTTE)- Mama M<?>
>So when's yours?
>
>Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22996
From: pixelmeow 
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:22:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Shameless Familial Promotion
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 22 Sep 2003 17:08:44 -0500, in sff.discuss.heinlein-forum,
cdozo <cadozo@planet-save.comDELETE> scribbled:

>Hey All,
>
>My sister Nancy and her family were on NPR's Morning edition this AM. 
>They were talking about her husband Mark and their daughter Rae's new 
>book, "12,000 Miles in the Nick of Time."
>
>You can hear the interview by going to 
>http://www.npr.org/rundowns/rundown.php?prgDate=22-Sep-2003&prgId=3
>and 
>clicking on the link "Book Chronicles Family's Attempt to Broaden
>Teens'  View." It's toward the bottom of the page.
>
>You can find out more about the book by going to 
>http://www.booknoise.net/12000miles/index.html
>
>Carol

That was a very good story, and I am totally jealous that they were
able to do that.  I listened enraptured on my way to work that
morning.  :-)

I hope to do the same thing when my daughter gets a bit older (she's
just turned 8).  

-- 
~teresa~

    ^..^  "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein  ^..^
    http://www.heinleinsociety.org/    http://pixelmeow.com/  
    http://pixelmeow.com/Book_Exchange/index.htm
    RAH Book Exchange, AFH Recipes, Etc.
    aim: pixelmeow  msn:pixelmeow@passport.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22997
From: pixelmeow 
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:24:44 -0400
Subject: Book Exchange Update
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Hello, all;

Just a note to let you all know that all the donations and requests
are finally in a database, I've got the Book List to match this, and I
believe everyone is covered as far as what they've donated and
requested.  I'm not sure about 2 copies of Stranger, did anyone offer
an ucut version?

Any further donations/requests/suggestions, please let me know at
moderator at my domain dot com.  My domain being "pixelmeow".

-- 
~teresa~
  Asa Hunter Memorial Book Exchange Moderator

    ^..^  "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein  ^..^
    http://www.heinleinsociety.org/    http://pixelmeow.com/  
    http://pixelmeow.com/Book_Exchange/index.htm
    RAH Book Exchange, AFH Recipes, Etc.
    aim: pixelmeow  msn:pixelmeow@passport.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22998
From: cdozo 
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:37:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Shameless Familial Promotion
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:22:35 -0400, pixelmeow <pixel.meow@verizon.net>
wrote:

I have to admit I'm pretty jealous about it too. I could have gone
with them, but I was obsessed with graduating from college. I only had
one more class left, and I was sick of school. They called me from
some exotic place the day of my graduation. That was kind of cool.
But...

Oh well,I hope to do it someday too.  My son is six.  His big travel
wish is to see the Sphinx.

Carol

>
>That was a very good story, and I am totally jealous that they were
>able to do that.  I listened enraptured on my way to work that
>morning.  :-)
>
>I hope to do the same thing when my daughter gets a bit older (she's
>just turned 8).  


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 22999
From: pixelmeow 
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 13:48:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Shameless Familial Promotion
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 10:37:27 -0500, in sff.discuss.heinlein-forum,
cdozo <cadozo@planet-save.comDELETE> scribbled:

>On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 11:22:35 -0400, pixelmeow <pixel.meow@verizon.net>
>wrote:
>>
>>That was a very good story, and I am totally jealous that they were
>>able to do that.  I listened enraptured on my way to work that
>>morning.  :-)
>>
>>I hope to do the same thing when my daughter gets a bit older (she's
>>just turned 8).  
>
>I have to admit I'm pretty jealous about it too. I could have gone
>with them, but I was obsessed with graduating from college. I only had
>one more class left, and I was sick of school. They called me from
>some exotic place the day of my graduation. That was kind of cool.
>But...

Yeah, I've got a friend who called me from the Gulf during Desert
Storm, I'm still mad that I never found that phone bill.  I wanted to
keep that!  And then there's my friend who went all over Europe while
he was in high school...  that made me VERY jealous.  But I don't
blame you about wanting to get college over with, I felt the same way
when I was there.  Now I want to go to some exotic places, just like
them...

>Oh well,I hope to do it someday too.  My son is six.  His big travel
>wish is to see the Sphinx.

My daughter's big wish is Scotland, since our heritage goes back there
and she thinks it's *so* cool...  kilts, plaids, family names, all
that stuff.  :-)

-- 
~teresa~

    ^..^  "Never try to outstubborn a cat."  Robert A. Heinlein  ^..^
    http://www.heinleinsociety.org/    http://pixelmeow.com/  
    http://pixelmeow.com/Book_Exchange/index.htm
    RAH Book Exchange, AFH Recipes, Etc.
    aim: pixelmeow  msn:pixelmeow@passport.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23000
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:00:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 09:34:59 -0500, cdozo
<cadozo@planet-save.comDELETE> wrote:

>
>06/24/youknowtheyear. : )
>
>When's yours?
>
So, Happy belated

Mine's 5/6, '55 was a good year

Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23001
From: William J. Keaton" 
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:10:40 -0400
Subject: Re: "Squalls out on the Gulf Stream...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Les Vrolyk" <les@vrolyk.org> wrote
> Hey Jake!  Thanks for asking after my folks.  They had no damage, but
> have been without power for 3 days and are looking at another 3 days
> without, likely.  Mom had to throw out all the food in the fridge and
> the weather is hot and humid with no A/C, but otherwise they are in
> good shape!

Power was off here from Thursday night to Sunday afternoon, but I was gone
by Saturday, off to see the family down in Phoenix. No damage to the house,
or to me, so it was a minor problem.

I too, lost everything in my fridge and freezer, which gave me an
opportunity to clean inside, outside and even under the refrigerator. Thanks
Isabela.


> How was TorCon?  I'm jealous.  Wish I coulda gone.

Toronto was lovely, I had a great time. The next West Coast con is LA in
2007. Think you can make it down the Coast?


WJaKe



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23002
From: William J. Keaton" 
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 19:21:45 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Since Thursday last week, I have received hundreds of these things a day!
Without the ability to read mail at home (no power!) my e-mail box quickly
filled up. I put in keyword filters through prodigys mail filters, check my
e-mail as often as I could while out of town, but I just don't know what
might have gotten bounced.

Serious changes being considered in the way I handle e-mail.

WJaKe



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23003
From: georule@civilwarstlouis
Date: 27 Sep 2003 00:17:21 GMT
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Deb had 800 of those things one morning, in spite of the fact that she checks
her email several times per day. I was getting on that order as well. Sometime
Wednesday they quite pouring in. Since then we only get 10-15 per day; I
presume whichever zombie had picked us as its particular target must have
got taken down.

Best. Geo

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23004
From: David Wright" 
Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2003 20:43:13 -0400
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


<georule@civilwarstlouis> wrote in message news:3f74d711.0@news.sff.net...
> Deb had 800 of those things one morning, in spite of the fact that she
checks
> her email several times per day. I was getting on that order as well.
Sometime
> Wednesday they quite pouring in. Since then we only get 10-15 per day; I
> presume whichever zombie had picked us as its particular target must have
> got taken down.
>

I seem to have dropped off the radar screen for the systems that were
sending to my main address or they have been cleaned up. I haven't had the
MS Update since 2 days after I posted the original warning. I am still
getting returns from ISPs who think that I have sent them something. And my
office address is getting automated messages from our firewall software
stating that they are deleting about 10 or 12 a day coming into that address
with those attachments.
--
David Wright

Join us at the next Heinlein Readers Group,Thursday October 23  at 9:00 P.M.
EDT
Topic is "Time Travel vs Free Will - Is there really a conflict?"
Join the pre-discussion thread on alt.fan.heinlein
See http://heinleinsociety.org/readersgroup/index.html#Info for instructions




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23005
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 28 Sep 2003 03:30:53 GMT
Subject: Heinlein Prize Gets Pixels
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

http://www.californiaspaceauthority.org/pr030915.html

http://pub97.ezboard.com/fnuclearspacefrm1.showMessage?topicID=952.topic

Linkage here, tho no independant commentary:
http://www.hobbyspace.com/SolarSciFi/

http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/k-space/browse?more=945464  The comments
here are interesting. Unfortunately, one of them appears to have taken the
entire contents of the site and dumped it in their post. Another took all
of the poem "Green Hills of Earth".  We had issues of our own with these
FREEPer people sometime ago.  They hotlinked one of our pictures from our
Civil War site for their own site.  I will say that they were quite prompt
and apologetic in pulling it when I bitched.

I'm a little unhappy with these people here, as I appreciate the enthusiasm,
but they took rather more of the site than I think is entirely proper: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/spaceenthusiastplace/message/196

I don't know what the Trustees think of having the site text scooped up
wholesale and dropped elsewhere. Possibly at this early point they prefer
the publicity to knuckle-banging over-enthusiastic fans.

Hopefully next week there will be even more details and coverage after the
big Bremen to-do.


Geo Rule

www.civilwarstlouis.com
www.robertaheinlein.com
www.heinleinsociety.org
www.heinleinprize.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23006
From: fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 06:34:50 GMT
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:25:59 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:

>I find that I'm feeling somwhat ambivelent these days, on this
>subject. I wonder if we really need to worry about this as much as the
>government seems to. 
>
> I'm much more terrified of Mr Ashcroft than of any terrorist.
>
More or less exactly what I'm afraid of.

U.S. Uses Terror Law to Pursue Crimes From Drugs to Swindling
Sat Sep 27, 2:53 PM ET  Add Top Stories - The New York Times to My
Yahoo! 
 

By ERIC LICHTBLAU The New York Times 

WASHINGTON, Sept. 27 — The Bush administration, which calls the USA
Patriot Act perhaps its most essential tool in fighting terrorists,
has begun using the law with increasing frequency in many criminal
investigations that have little or no connection to terrorism. 


The government is using its expanded authority under the far-reaching
law to investigate suspected drug traffickers, white-collar criminals,
blackmailers, child pornographers, money launderers, spies and even
corrupt foreign leaders, federal officials said. 


Justice Department (news - web sites) officials say they are simply
using all the tools now available to them to pursue criminals —
terrorists or otherwise. But critics of the administration's
antiterrorism tactics assert that such use of the law is evidence the
administration has sold the American public a false bill of goods,
using terrorism as a guise to pursue a broader law enforcement agenda.



Justice Department officials point out that they have employed their
newfound powers in many instances against suspected terrorists. With
the new law breaking down the wall between intelligence and criminal
investigations, the Justice Department in February was able to bring
terrorism-related charges against a Florida professor, for example,
and it has used its expanded surveillance powers to move against
several suspected terrorist cells. 


But a new Justice Department report, given to members of Congress this
month, also cites more than a dozen cases that are not directly
related to terrorism in which federal authorities have used their
expanded power to investigate individuals, initiate wiretaps and other
surveillance, or seize millions in tainted assets. 


For instance, the ability to secure nationwide warrants to obtain
e-mail and electronic evidence "has proved invaluable in several
sensitive nonterrorism investigations," including the tracking of an
unidentified fugitive and an investigation into a computer hacker who
stole a company's trade secrets, the report said. 


Justice Department officials said the cases cited in the report
represent only a small sampling of the many hundreds of nonterrorism
cases pursued under the law. 


The authorities have also used toughened penalties under the law to
press charges against a lovesick 20-year-old woman from Orange County,
Calif., who planted threatening notes aboard a Hawaii-bound cruise
ship she was traveling on with her family in May. The woman, who said
she made the threats to try to return home to her boyfriend, was
sentenced this week to two years in federal prison because of a
provision in the Patriot Act on the threat of terrorism against mass
transportation systems. 


And officials said they had used their expanded authority to track
private Internet communications in order to investigate a major drug
distributor, a four-time killer, an identity thief and a fugitive who
fled on the eve of trial by using a fake passport. 


In one case, an e-mail provider disclosed information that allowed
federal authorities to apprehend two suspects who had threatened to
kill executives at a foreign corporation unless they were paid a hefty
ransom, officials said. Previously, they said, gray areas in the law
made it difficult to get such global Internet and computer data. 


The law passed by Congress just five weeks after the terror attacks of
Sept. 11, 2001, has proved a particularly powerful tool in pursuing
financial crimes. 


Officials with the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement have
seen a sharp spike in investigations as a result of their expanded
powers, officials said in interviews. 


A senior official said investigators in the last two years had seized
about $35 million at American borders in undeclared cash, checks and
currency being smuggled out of the country. That was a significant
increase over the past few years, the official said. While the
authorities say they suspect that large amounts of the smuggled cash
may have been intended to finance Middle Eastern terrorists, much of
it involved drug smuggling, corporate fraud and other crimes not
directly related to terrorism. 


The terrorism law allows the authorities to investigate cash smuggling
cases more aggressively and to seek stiffer penalties by elevating
them from what had been mere reporting failures. 


Customs officials say they have used their expanded authority to open
at least nine investigations into Latin American officials suspected
of laundering money in the United States, and to seize millions of
dollars from overseas bank accounts in many cases unrelated to
terrorism. 


In one instance, agents citing the new law seized $1.7 million from
United States bank accounts that were linked to a former Illinois
investor who fled to Belize after he was accused of bilking clients
out of millions, federal officials said. 


Publicly, Attorney General John Ashcroft (news - web sites) and senior
Justice Department officials have portrayed their expanded power
almost exclusively as a means of fighting terrorists, with little or
no mention of other criminal uses. 

   
"We have used these tools to prevent terrorists from unleashing more
death and destruction on our soil," Mr. Ashcroft said last month in a
speech in Washington, one of more than two dozen he has given in
defense of the law, which has come under growing attack. "We have used
these tools to save innocent American lives." 

Internally, however, Justice Department officials have emphasized a
much broader mandate. 

A guide to a Justice Department employee seminar last year on
financial crimes, for instance, said: "We all know that the USA
Patriot Act provided weapons for the war on terrorism. But do you know
how it affects the war on crime as well?" 

Elliot Mincberg, legal director for People for the American Way, a
liberal group that has been critical of Mr. Ashcroft, said the Justice
Department's public assertions had struck him as misleading and
perhaps dishonest. 

"What the Justice Department has really done," he said, "is to get
things put into the law that have been on prosecutors' wish lists for
years. They've used terrorism as a guise to expand law enforcement
powers in areas that are totally unrelated to terrorism." 

A study in January by the General Accounting Office (news - web
sites), the investigative arm of Congress, concluded that while the
number of terrorism investigations at the Justice Department soared
after the Sept. 11 attacks, 75 percent of the convictions that the
department classified as "international terrorism" were wrongly
labeled. Many dealt with more common crimes like document forgery. 

The terrorism law has already drawn sharp opposition from those who
believe it gives the government too much power to intrude on people's
privacy in pursuit of terrorists. 

Anthony Romero, executive director of the American Civil Liberties
Union (news - web sites), said, "Once the American public understands
that many of the powers granted to the federal government apply to
much more than just terrorism, I think the opposition will gain
momentum." 

Senator Patrick J. Leahy of Vermont, the ranking Democrat on the
Judiciary Committee (news - web sites), said members of Congress
expected some of the new powers granted to law enforcement to be used
for nonterrorism investigations. 

But he said the Justice Department's secrecy and lack of cooperation
in implementing the legislation have made him question whether "the
government is taking shortcuts around the criminal laws" by invoking
intelligence powers — with differing standards of evidence — to
conduct surveillance operations and demand access to records. 

"We did not intend for the government to shed the traditional tools of
criminal investigation, such as grand jury subpoenas governed by
well-established precedent and wiretaps strictly monitored" by federal
judges, he said. 

Justice Department officials say such criticism has not deterred them.
"There are many provisions in the Patriot Act that can be used in the
general criminal law," Mark Corallo, a department spokesman, said.
"And I think any reasonable person would agree that we have an
obligation to do everything we can to protect the lives and liberties
of Americans from attack, whether it's from terrorists or
garden-variety criminals."

& now a much lesser step to people we don't like in general,
I may have been wrong, maybe the government is taking the long view
after all.

Fader



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23007
From: les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk)
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 17:05:06 GMT
Subject: Re: Roll Call Sept 2003
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

We'll be there!  We should be out of this god-forsaken waste land by
then and back on the east coast.  (A girl can dream can't she?)
Meatballs.....yummy!

Les


On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 11:12:19 GMT, fader55@delete.sbcglobal.net (Fader)
wrote:

>On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 02:02:29 GMT, les@vrolyk.org (Les Vrolyk) wrote:
>
>>
>>I'll say you're not bad!  Damn, but I'm hungry for a meatball!
>>
>Well, you can have a virtual one anytime, ( or a remembered one if
>your memorey has other sensory data stored) Or you guys can head this
>way. I have a thought on this, for a Gathering in the future to
>celebrate my 50th birthday, but it's a ways off yet. (2005)
>
>Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23008
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:08:48 -0700
Subject: Re: Terrorism ??
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Les Vrolyk wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 11:25:59 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>
> > I find that I'm feeling somwhat ambivelent these days, on this
> > subject. I wonder if we really need to worry about this as much as
> > the government seems to.
> >
>
> I don't believe the US government actually worries about terrorism per
> se.  It's just an opportunist taking advantage of a situation.

I disagree. I believe it is both.

Remember that, for the effort expended on 9/11, the terrorists could have
focused their attacks more directly, and almost certainly have gotten the
President, the Senate, or the House, or possibly all three. I have little
doubt that most politicians know this.

Of course, since they have the excuse, they take all possible advantage of
it, too. So would we, though in different ways, if it was an advantage for
us, wouldn't we?

> I'm not sure humans can evolve out of this type of behavior.
>
>  And I know I'm right...

You know you are right that you aren't sure? I believe you.:)


-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23009
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 19:20:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT wrote:
>   If anyone
> else out there has a better educated guess as to how many years it
> will take for some sort of authentication authority to spring up that
> the masses can use (and that sysops can admin without major headache
> ;)  I'd like to hear it as a part of the discussion!

Not less than 10 years, not more than 100.

-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 23010
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:25:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Apparent variation on a virus
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

David Wright wrote:
<snip>
> I am using ChoiceMail, a system that works by blacklist. It is
> supposed to work by sending a message to anyone not on my 'whitelist'
> asking them to confirm who they are and why they want to talk to me.
> I disable this part and simply check my 'unknown sender' list daily
> and am easily able to spot valid messages which I then approve. The
> rest are then deleted. I have found it to be highly effective. I
> would say 100% effective. Of course, that is my own
> 'whitelist/blacklist' not that of a third party.

Not a bad method. I am trying various "Bayesian filtering" methods myself,
trying to find out what works best. I prefer a method with such low false
positives that I can set it to autodelete, and check it only occasionally.

I'm already using "Brightmail" through the Earthlink "Spaminator", which has
virtually 100% no false positives, but uses a server-side method that has
been largely overwhelmed by the sheer level of spam on the Internet today.
It used to get better than 90% of all spam, but I'd bet its down to 50%
these days. I intend to add another nearly 100% no false positives system
soon, using Bayesian filtering. This gives me at least a 95% effective spam
blocking, with no problem with being overwhelmed. Unfortunately, the ones I
prefer run best on Linux, and various other commitments have prevented me
from taking the time and effort to set up a Linux box to run them on.

While no method is perfect, I have finally decided to stop obsessing about
the 1-in-500 false positives that I might end up with being automatically
deleted. No method of sending messages has absolute guaranteed success.
Email itself has its own "dead letter office"; a percentage of all emails
are lost in transit already. So, I set up a method with minimum false
positives and very low false negatives, let it run automatically, and live
with the tiny chance that my email will be lost.

-- 
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------

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