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Archive of: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
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Archive date: Fri, 21 Sep 2001 20:09:10
============================================================
Article 19020
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:29:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Shoot Down
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
From the various news reports, I've heard some interesting things, in no
specific order:
US officials aboard the recon plane tried to get Peruvian official onboard
their plane to get the jet attack called off. The Peruvian official could
not talk directly to the Peruvian pilot.
COMMENT: Who has authority and control over this pilot, and what is their
communication channel? Shouldn't the person closest to the scene direct the
encounter, ie. the Peruvian official on the US plane?
The missionary plane and the jet were not using the same frequencies to talk
to each other.
COMMENT: The plane's pilot was used to flying in that area. Surely he was
aware that fighter pilots were being directed against suspected drug
flights. Shouldn't he have known what frequency to use? Surely the Peruvian
jet pilot should have known the civilian air-to-air freq!
A flight plan had been filed, it just hadn't been forwarded to the control
tower the Peruvians were trying to contact.
The plane's flight path was not typical of a drug plane. It was flying
around 4000 feet, much higher than an evasive pilot would dare. The plane
was following the river course, but only as an emergency landing option. (It
was a floatplane)
The Washington Post carried an account from a pilot who had endured an
interdiction in Peruvian airspace. He described the procedure used to
communicate between the planes. Accounts of this latest incident do not
indicate that these procedures were followed. but I've only heard the
shot-down pilot's story. (They came in guns a-blazin')
Just as an aside, many South American countries are instantly suspicious of
floatplanes and seaplanes, as they can land in so many places. Jimmy Buffett
flew his Grumman Albatross down to Brazil via Central America and the
Carribean a few years back, and gives many accounts of the problems he
encountered throughout the trip. Among those, the fact that they had to
guard the plane in many places, as the arms/drug smugglers were eyeing up
it's amphibious capabilities and cavernous cargo area. See his best-selling
book "A Pirate Looks at 50" for all the details.
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19021
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 02:32:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Another HF addition.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"John Paul Vrolyk" <jp@vrolyk.org> wrote in message
news:3AE5FA8F.CD7A1285@vrolyk.org...
> John Paul and Leslie Vrolyk are proud to announce the birth
> of their first-born son, Jack Orion Vrolyk.
>
> Jack was born at 7:38pm, on Monday, April 23, 2001.
>
> He weighed in at 9lbs, 1oz, and was 20" long.
>
> Both mother and baby are recovering well from the rather
> traumatic experience.
>
Traumatic? Aside from the normal birth experience, I hope there were no
extraordinary difficulties. I hope Mother and Son are doing well, and
Congratulations!
Or was it Dad who had the traumatic experience? <g, d & r>
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19022
From: John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:00:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Another HF addition.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"William J. Keaton" wrote:
> > Both mother and baby are recovering well from the rather
> > traumatic experience.
> Traumatic? Aside from the normal birth experience, I hope there were no
> extraordinary difficulties. I hope Mother and Son are doing well, and
Well, actually, Jack's head was too big, and so he had
to be born by C-section. That usually qualifies as
"major surgery", and, thus, as traumatic. Nevertheless,
everyone involved is doing well now, though I wouldn't have
claimed that Monday night.
> Congratulations!
Thanks, WJake, and everyone else.
--
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19023
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 20:49:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Another HF addition.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Wed, 25 Apr 2001 09:00:50 -0400, John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
>Well, actually, Jack's head was too big, and so he had
>to be born by C-section. That usually qualifies as
>"major surgery", and, thus, as traumatic. Nevertheless,
>everyone involved is doing well now, though I wouldn't have
>claimed that Monday night.
>
>> Congratulations!
>
>Thanks, WJake, and everyone else.
>
Public congrats to the three of you! Christine is on the phone with
Les getting her perspective now, so I'm glad to hear Dad's side, too.
He's a precious one, all right. <Big Smile>
Why does it not surprise me that your son was born with a big head?
<G,D,&R VVF>
(For the record, Daniel was turned in the womb and had to be "set
straight" before he could be delivered, so you know he's a chip off
the old block, too. ;)
Welcome to the club, Dad!
--JT
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19024
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:42:24 -0700
Subject: Re: Shoot Down
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3AE65620.63E484C3@aol.com...
<snip>
> If you have a strong stomach, check out "Mark of the Devil" available
on
> DVD.
1) I don't have DVD.
2) I have a reasonably strong stomach, but a distinct dislike for those
movies/books/etc. which would require me to have one. One of the reasons I'm
not into horror.
> * I am referring to the actual transaction between the retail buyer and
retail
> seller. The violence involved in the trade as a whole is another subject
and
> would disappear should the product be legalized.
A very important distinction to make. There is an enormous distinction
between the makers of Jack Daniels and Al Capone. There is also a difference
between those who would use force to enforce laws to try to stop something
they believe is a great danger to society and those who try to enforce laws
to control people and give themselves power. Even if the results are the
same, the _motivations_ are different, and motivation is of great
importance. Both of these are sometimes forgotten by
libertarians/anarchists/Objectivists with whom I have discussed these things
in the past.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19025
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 14:46:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Another HF addition.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Congratulations, John Paul and Leslie! Keep this up, and someday everyone
will remember how to spell your name....
Filksinger
"John Paul Vrolyk" <jp@vrolyk.org> wrote in message
news:3AE5FA8F.CD7A1285@vrolyk.org...
> John Paul and Leslie Vrolyk are proud to announce the birth
> of their first-born son, Jack Orion Vrolyk.
>
> Jack was born at 7:38pm, on Monday, April 23, 2001.
>
> He weighed in at 9lbs, 1oz, and was 20" long.
>
> Both mother and baby are recovering well from the rather
> traumatic experience.
>
> More information, and some pictures, can be found at
> young Jack's personal webpage:
> http://www.vrolyk.org/jack/
>
> --
> John Paul Vrolyk
> http://www.vrolyk.org/jp/
> jp@vrolyk.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19026
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2001 22:01:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Another HF addition.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
John Paul & Les:
Congratulations! Jack looks so cute in your pictures.
`Glad that mother and son are recovering, I hope the baby lets you
all get some well deserved rest.
Ed J
On Tue, 24 Apr 2001 18:13:35 -0400, John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
wrote:
>John Paul and Leslie Vrolyk are proud to announce the birth
>of their first-born son, Jack Orion Vrolyk.
>
>Jack was born at 7:38pm, on Monday, April 23, 2001.
>
>He weighed in at 9lbs, 1oz, and was 20" long.
>
>Both mother and baby are recovering well from the rather
>traumatic experience.
>
>More information, and some pictures, can be found at
>young Jack's personal webpage:
> http://www.vrolyk.org/jack/
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19027
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 02:07:21 -0400
Subject: Hugo Ballot
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Nominations for Novel (381 nominating ballots, 205 nominees)
A Storm of Swords by George R.R. Martin (Voyager; Bantam Spectra)
Calculating God by Robert J. Sawyer (Tor)
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire by J.K. Rowling (Bloomsbury;
Scholastic/Levine)
Midnight Robber by Nalo Hopkinson (Warner Aspect)
The Sky Road by Ken MacLeod (Orbit 1999; Tor 2000)
Nominations for Novella (229 nominating ballots, 50 nominees; 6
nominees due to a tie)
"A Roll of the Dice" by Catherine Asaro (Analog Jul/Aug 2000)
"Oracle" by Greg Egan (Asimov's Jul 2000)
"Radiant Green Star" by Lucius Shepard (Asimov's Aug 2000)
"Seventy-Two Letters" by Ted Chiang (Vanishing Acts: A Science Fiction
Anthology, Tor Jul 2000)
"The Retrieval Artist" by Kristine Kathryn Rusch (Analog Jun 2000)
"The Ultimate Earth" by Jack Williamson (Analog Dec 2000)
Nominations for Novellette (237 nominating ballots, 131 nominees)
"Agape Among the Robots" by Allen Steele (Analog May 2000; Imagination
Fully Dilated, Vol. 2, IFD Publishing May 2000)
"Generation Gap" by Stanley Schmidt (Artemis Spring 2000)
"Millennium Babies" by Kristine Kathryn Rusch (Asimov's Jan 2000)
"On the Orion Line" by Stephen Baxter (Asimov's Oct/Nov 2000)
"Redchapel" by Mike Resnick (Asimov's Dec 2000)
Nominations for Short Story (295 nominating ballots, 248 nominees)
"Different Kinds of Darkness" by David Langford (F&SF Jan 2000)
"Kaddish for the Last Survivor" by Michael A. Burstein (Analog Nov
2000)
"Moon Dogs" by Michael Swanwick (Moon Dogs, NESFA Press Feb 2000;
Asimov's Mar 2000)
"The Elephants on Neptune" by Mike Resnick (Asimov's May 2000)
"The Gravity Mine" by Stephen Baxter (Asimov's Apr 2000)
Nominations for Related Book (213 nominating ballots, 86 nominees)
Concordance to Cordwainer Smith, Third Edition by Anthony R. Lewis
(NESFA Press)
Greetings from Earth: The Art of Bob Eggleton by Bob Eggleton and
Nigel Suckling (Paper Tiger)
Putting It Together: Turning Sow's Ear Drafts Into Silk Purse Stories
Mike Resnick (Wildside Press)
Robert A. Heinlein: A Reader's Companion by James Gifford
(Nitrosyncretic Press)
Terry Pratchett: Guilty of Literature ed. by Andrew M. Butler, Edward
James and Farah Mendlesohn (The Science Fiction
Foundation)
Nominations for Dramatic Presentation (279 nominating ballots, 151
nominees)
Chicken Run
Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon
Frank Herbert's Dune
Frequency
X-Men
Nominations for Professional Editor (288 nominating ballots, 77
nominees)
Ellen Datlow
Gardner Dozois
David G. Hartwell
Stanley Schmidt
Gordon Van Gelder
Nominations for Professional Artist (246 nominating ballots, 145
nominees)
Jim Burns
Bob Eggleton
Frank Kelly Freas
Donato Giancola
Michael Whelan
Nominations for Semiprozine (241 nominating ballots, 56 nominees)
Interzone edited by David Pringle
Locus edited by Charles N. Brown
New York Review of Science Fiction edited by Kathryn Cramer, David G.
Hartwell, and Kevin Maroney
Science Fiction Chronicle edited by Andrew I. Porter
Speculations edited by Denise Lee and Susan Fry; published by Kent
Brewster
Nominations for Fanzine (194 nominating ballots, 90 nominees)
Challenger edited by Guy Lillian III
File 770 edited by Mike Glyer
Mimosa edited by Nicki and Richard Lynch
Plokta edited by Alison Scott, Steve Davies and Mike Scott
Stet edited by Dick Smith and Leah Zeldes Smith
Nominations for Fan Writer (201 nominating ballots, 134 nominees)
Bob Devney
Mike Glyer
Dave Langford
Evelyn C. Leeper
Steven H Silver
Nominations for Fan Artist (127 nominating ballots, 81 nominees)
Sheryl Birkhead
Brad Foster
Teddy Harvia
Sue Mason
Taral Wayne
Nominations for the John W. Campbell Award (201 nominating
ballots, 100 nominees)
James L. Cambias (1st year of eligibility)
Thomas Harlan (2nd year of eligibility)
Douglas Smith (2nd year of eligibility)
Kristine Smith (2nd year of eligibility)
Jo Walton (1st year of eligibility)
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19028
From: David Wright" <dwrigsr@alltel.net>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 06:24:42 -0400
Subject: Reminder: Meeting of Heinlein Readers Group 4/26,28/2001
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
A reminder. The next meeting of the Heinlein Readers Group will take
place Thursday April 26,2001 at 9:00 P.M. EDT using AIM. The topic for
this meeting and the next one on Saturday April, 28, 2001 at 5:00 P.M.
EDT is 'Teachers in Heinlein'
Information on downloading AIM and joining the chat room is available at
http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html
Click on the Introduction Link.
Archives of previous discussions may also be found on the same page.
Come join us.
David Wright
--
Related Heinlein Web Pages
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/
http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19029
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:16:55 GMT
Subject: college
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
After much thought (and visits to each school), I have finally
registered for CalPoly San Luis Obispo. My two main choices were UC
Santa Cruz and CalPoly. UC Santa Cruz was also quite impressive but
the atmosphere was so relaxed that I tend to think I'd be too prone to
blowing off work. CalPoly appeared (and sounded, based on what the
other students told me) to be the better choice for myself (I do tend
to have issues with diligence).
I shall be majoring in physics, and I hope to minor in Spanish.
Just thought that might be of some note...
Bob
Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19030
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:21:55 GMT
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I thought some people might be interested in knowing how the
applicatons finally panned out.
Accepted:
CalPoly SLO
UC Santa Cruz
UC Riverside
Whitman College (oddly enough, they accepted me for the spring
semester and not the fall)
and a small little Adventist College called Pacific Union College.
particularly peculiar since I did not apply there; however, methinks
my school sent them my info.
Denied:
Occidental College
Pomona College
UC Berkeley
UC Irvine
UC Santa Barbara
Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19031
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:22:49 GMT
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
That was redundant. Pardon me.
>and a small little
Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19032
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2001 22:43:44 -0500
Subject: The Flowered Tundermug
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
All--
There was some discussion a few months ago about the story "The Flowered
Thundermug" by Alfred Bester and some people asked where it can be
found. It is on line at:
http://moshkow.mslu.unibel.by/Library/koi/BESTER/vase.txt
I have no idea what the copyright status is on it and am giving
this only as information.
A highly recommended story.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19033
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 02:44:25 -0400
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Bob Lawson" <bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com> wrote
> I thought some people might be interested in knowing how the
> applicatons finally panned out.
> Accepted:
> CalPoly SLO
> UC Santa Cruz
I still say, Go Banana Slugs!
> UC Riverside
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19034
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 00:18:21 -0700
Subject: A Joke
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Here's another minor variant on an oldie but a goodie.
Bill Clinton, Heidi Klum, Janet Reno, and George W. Bush are sitting
together on a train. The train goes through a tunnel, and everyone
hears a loud "smack!" in the darkness. When they come out of the
tunnel, Clinton has a red mark on his face.
Janet Reno thinks, "Good for her!"
Heidi Klum thinks, "Clinton must have a thing for Janet Reno. Who'd
have thought?"
Clinton thinks, "Are all those stories about Janet true after all, or
did Bush just make a grab at Heidi Klum?"
Bush thinks, "I hope we go through another tunnel so I can hit Clinton
again."
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19035
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 00:36:35 -0700
Subject: Bourne Again
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
This September, the first in a three movie series, based upon the
"Bourne" novels by Ludlum, is due out. Since I noticed that some
people mentioned liking Tom Clancy, I figured that there would also be
interest in these three books.
The first one, "The Bourne Identity", is half Clancy, half Hitchcock.
The main character has amnesia due to a bullet to the head, and has no
real idea of what is going on. He spends the book half hoping to find
out the truth, and half terrified that he will, as all the evidence
suggests that he is a criminal, and probably an assassin, hunted by
the man who he would replace as the deadliest man in Europe. The next
two novels continue on much the same course, but with more intrigue
and less outright mystery.
Regardless, if this sounds remotely interesting, I heartily recommend
"The Bourne Identity", "The Bourne Supremacy", and "The Bourne
Ultimatum". Classic Ludlum, and well worth the reading. Knowing this
group, I don't expect the 1500 page size to make anyone so much as
pause.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19036
From: Sames" <lastdreamer@email.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 16:22:43 +0200
Subject: Re: Hugo Ballot
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
An interesting thing is that Heinlein is connected with at least four
nominations this year (taking into account the RetroHugo1951):
Hugo2001, Related Book:
Robert A. Heinlein: A Reader's Companion by James Gifford
RetroHugo 1951, Dramatic Presentation:
Destination Moon
RetroHugo 1951, Novel:
Farmer in the Sky by Robert A. Heinlein
RetroHugo 1951, Novella:
"The Man Who Sold the Moon" by Robert A. Heinlein
Sames
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19037
From: David Wright" <maikosht@alltel.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:25:16 -0400
Subject: German Translation Question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Hi Sames!
As I recall you are German. Would you mind if I asked you a question about a
German translation thing. I am currently reading the German version of 'The
Past Through Tomorrow' called 'Methusalems Kinder'. (Odd choice of title, I
think, although that story is included). There is a section in the story 'We
also Walk Dogs' where the English says 'other people don't count' meaning
that, in this context, that other people are simply left out of
consideration. The German says ''...Leute zaehlen nicht". to me, this means
to count things such as money, or whatever. The english is somewhat of an
idiomatic phrase, and in this context doesn't require a direct object
unlike its more normal usage which does require a direct object. Does German
actually use this verb with the same idiomatic meaning. If I had not known
the original, I would have thought that it would have implied not being able
or willing to count. I am far from an expert speaker of German and rely
heavily on my knowledge of RAH's works to help me get through the German.
Thanks in advance
David Wright
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19038
From: Eli Hestermann <Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:55:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Another HF addition.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Somewhat belated congratulations from here, as well.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa." -Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19039
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:43:20 -0700
Subject: Re: Bourne Again
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3ae92196.0@news.sff.net...
<snip>
> Knowing this
> group, I don't expect the 1500 page size to make anyone so much as
> pause.
Uh, 500 pages. Augh.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19040
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 16:44:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Hugo Ballot
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Sames wrote:
> An interesting thing is that Heinlein is connected with at least four
> nominations this year (taking into account the RetroHugo1951):
>
> Hugo2001, Related Book:
> Robert A. Heinlein: A Reader's Companion by James Gifford
>
> RetroHugo 1951, Dramatic Presentation:
> Destination Moon
>
> RetroHugo 1951, Novel:
> Farmer in the Sky by Robert A. Heinlein
>
> RetroHugo 1951, Novella:
> "The Man Who Sold the Moon" by Robert A. Heinlein
Rah, rah, rah, RAH? :)
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19041
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 00:54:27 GMT
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
As do I, they're great lightly braised...
>> UC Santa Cruz
>
>I still say, Go Banana Slugs!
>
I'm guessing, are you an alumnus of some sort?
Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19042
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 00:38:54 -0400
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Bob Lawson" <bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com> wrote
> As do I, they're great lightly braised...
> >> UC Santa Cruz
> >
> >I still say, Go Banana Slugs!
> >
> I'm guessing, are you an alumnus of some sort?
No, I went to Beloit College in Beloit Wisconsin. We were the Buccaneers for
some reason.
Luckily we had a cool unofficial mascot, the fierce Turtle!
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19043
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 00:40:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Hugo Ballot
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Sames" <lastdreamer@email.com> wrote ...
> An interesting thing is that Heinlein is connected with at least four
> nominations this year (taking into account the RetroHugo1951):
>
Thanks for mentioning the Retro Hugos, I'll have to go find that list!
Unless you have it handy.
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19044
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2001 22:51:14 -0700
Subject: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"The idea that any rich man could just lay cash on the line and _go_ was
more than I could stand."
Damn you, Dennis Tito.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19045
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 00:27:06 -0700
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3AEA5A52.A0A20CBE@rcsis.com...
>
> "The idea that any rich man could just lay cash on the line and _go_
was
> more than I could stand."
>
> Damn you, Dennis Tito.
I hadn't heard. I guess this means he goes? Or is it 'has gone'?
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19046
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 04:18:28 -0500
Subject: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
All--
But especially those up on astronomy --
I am in need of knowing the period from one full moon to another
for a calendar program I am working on. Can anybody give that to me
to 10 or so decimal places (in days; or days, hours, minutes, and
seconds or some combination ). I tried getting it from the net and got
buried in unusable information, but I did use 1998 and 2001 full moon
day/times to get an approximation.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19047
From: Sames" <lastdreamer@email.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 11:22:55 +0200
Subject: Re: Hugo Ballot
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Retro Hugo 1951
# Nominations for Novel (111 nominating ballots, 30 nominees)
The Dying Earth by Jack Vance (Hillman)
Farmer in the Sky by Robert A. Heinlein (Scribner's)
First Lensman by Edward E. Smith, Ph.D. (Fantasy Press)
Pebble in the Sky by Isaac Asimov (Doubleday)
The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe by C.S. Lewis (Geoffrey Bles)
# Nominations for Novella (73 nominating ballots, 19 nominees)
"...And Now You Don't" by Isaac Asimov (Astounding Science Fiction Nov
1949 - Jan 1950)
"The Dreaming Jewels" by Theodore Sturgeon (Fantastic Adventures Feb
1950)
"The Last Enemy" by H Beam Piper (Astounding Science Fiction Aug 1950)
"The Man Who Sold the Moon" by Robert A. Heinlein (The Man Who Sold
the Moon, Shasta Publishers)
"To the Stars" by L. Ron Hubbard (Astounding Science Fiction Feb-Mar
1950)
# Nominations for Novellette (73 nominating ballots, 32 nominees)
"Dear Devil" by Eric Frank Russell (Other Worlds May 1950)
"Okie" by James Blish (Astounding Science Fiction Apr 1950)
"Scanners Live in Vain" by Cordwainer Smith (Fantasy Book #6)
"The Helping Hand" by Poul Anderson (Astounding Science Fiction May
1950)
"The Little Black Bag" by C.M. Kornbluth (Astounding Science Fiction
Jul 1950)
# Nominations for Short Story (100 nominating ballots, 64 nominees)
"A Subway Named Mobius" by A.J. Deutsch (Astounding Science Fiction
Dec 1950)
"Born of Man and Woman" by Richard Matheson (F&SF Summer 1950)
"Coming Attractions" by Fritz Leiber (Galaxy Nov 1950)
"The Gnurrs Come from the VoodVork Out" by Reginald Bretnor (F&SF
Winter-Spring 1950)
"To Serve Man" by Damon Knight (Galaxy Nov 1950)
# Nominations for Related Book (9 nominating ballots, 10 nominees)
Category has been dropped due to insufficient response
# Nominations for Dramatic Presentation (88 nominating ballots, 30
nominees)
Cinderella
Destination Moon
Harvey
Rabbit of Seville
Rocketship X-M
# Nominations for Professional Editor (64 nominating ballots, 21
nominees)
Anthony Boucher
John W. Campbell, Jr.
Groff Conklin
H.L. Gold
J. Francis McComas
# Nominations for Professional Artist (49 nominating ballots, 31
nominees)
Hannes Bok
Chesley Bonestell
Edd Cartier
Virgil Finlay
Frank Kelly Freas
# Nominations for Semiprozine (4 nominating ballots, 8 nominees)
Category was dropped due to insufficient response
# Nominations for Fanzine (36 nominating ballots, 26 nominees; 6
nominees due to a tie)
Quandry
Science Fiction Newsletter
Skyhook
Slant
Spacewarp
The Fanscient
# Nominations for Fan Writer (38 nominating ballots, 29 nominees)
Lee Hoffman
Bob Silverberg
Robert "Bob" Wilson Tucker
James White
Walt Willis
# Nominations for Fan Artist (30 nominating ballots, 20 nominees)
Jack Gaughan
Lee Hoffman
Ray Nelson
Bill Rotsler
James White
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19048
From: Sames" <lastdreamer@email.com>
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 11:22:57 +0200
Subject: Re: German Translation Question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Actually "etwas oder jemand zaehlt nicht" has the meaning of
"something or somebody doesn't count". Of course you could use it to
express that somebody does not say "1,2,3,4,5,6,7..." ;) but usually
one expresses the unimportance of somebody/something with that phrase.
But sometimes translators mix things up and one has to re-translate it
into English to understand it's meaning. That often happens when an
English idiom has a double meaning, but the appropriate German
translation does not have this double meaning. The same thing of
course happens in English translations of German books. Well, I guess
languages are not 100% compatible.
Sames
On Fri, 27 Apr 2001 11:25:16 -0400, "David Wright"
<maikosht@alltel.net> wrote:
>Hi Sames!
>
>As I recall you are German. Would you mind if I asked you a question about a
>German translation thing. I am currently reading the German version of 'The
>Past Through Tomorrow' called 'Methusalems Kinder'. (Odd choice of title, I
>think, although that story is included). There is a section in the story 'We
>also Walk Dogs' where the English says 'other people don't count' meaning
>that, in this context, that other people are simply left out of
>consideration. The German says ''...Leute zaehlen nicht". to me, this means
>to count things such as money, or whatever. The english is somewhat of an
>idiomatic phrase, and in this context doesn't require a direct object
>unlike its more normal usage which does require a direct object. Does German
>actually use this verb with the same idiomatic meaning. If I had not known
>the original, I would have thought that it would have implied not being able
>or willing to count. I am far from an expert speaker of German and rely
>heavily on my knowledge of RAH's works to help me get through the German.
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>David Wright
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19049
From: David Wright" <dwrigsr@alltel.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 07:45:49 -0400
Subject: Re: German Translation Question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Sames" <lastdreamer@email.com> wrote in message
news:Y4vqOvV46hshRXkWOKQ6Q6cxgByp@4ax.com...
> Actually "etwas oder jemand zaehlt nicht" has the meaning of
> "something or somebody doesn't count". Of course you could use it to
> express that somebody does not say "1,2,3,4,5,6,7..." ;) but usually
> one expresses the unimportance of somebody/something with that phrase.
>
Danke Schoen. That is exactly the answer I was looking for. I was a little
suprprised to see that the same somewhat idiomatic meaning was the same in
both languages.
>
> But sometimes translators mix things up and one has to re-translate it
> into English to understand it's meaning. That often happens when an
> English idiom has a double meaning, but the appropriate German
> translation does not have this double meaning. The same thing of
> course happens in English translations of German books. Well, I guess
> languages are not 100% compatible.
That's putting it mildly. Even for ones as closely related as English and
German.
(snip)
David Wright
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19050
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 07:53:57 -0400
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
> "James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
> news:3AEA5A52.A0A20CBE@rcsis.com...
> >
> > "The idea that any rich man could just lay cash on the line and _go_
> was
> > more than I could stand."
> >
> > Damn you, Dennis Tito.
>
> I hadn't heard. I guess this means he goes? Or is it 'has gone'?
>
> Filksinger
From what I just read as I logged on, he has gone. I think it's great
though; it sets a precedent. At the moment it's just ever so slightly
outside the family holiday budget <g> but if it continues, as always, the
price will come down. If there is a perceived market for tourism then
arrangements will eventually be made.
The training is more of a handicap than the price; most millionaires are
busy making money and he trained for a long time. This commitment would
put off people just keen for the experience rather than obsessed with it.
Jane
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19051
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 15:09:44 -0400
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Jane: Let me second that. I too think that it's great that the
first tourist has gone into space. I know that the price will come
down - but I have no idea how long it will take to come down.
Twenty million dollars and months of Russian Cosmonaut training is
way too high for almost any enthusiast on earth!
Does anyone have even a wild guess as to how long it might take for
the price to drop to $1,000,000.00 per tourist? When it gets below
that figure radio or TV shows might start giving away 'Weekends in
Space' as prizes in contests. . . . . Heinlein and others in
the `50's envisioned workmen (tradesmen no different that they who
build ships or planes) building the first space stations, not
trained astronauts. Does anyone foresee that happening in the next
10 or 20 years?
Ed J
On Sat, 28 Apr 2001 07:53:57 -0400, ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
wrote:
>Filksinger wrote:
>
>> "James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
>> news:3AEA5A52.A0A20CBE@rcsis.com...
>> >
>> > "The idea that any rich man could just lay cash on the line and _go_
>> was
>> > more than I could stand."
>> >
>> > Damn you, Dennis Tito.
>>
>> I hadn't heard. I guess this means he goes? Or is it 'has gone'?
>>
>> Filksinger
>
>From what I just read as I logged on, he has gone. I think it's great
>though; it sets a precedent. At the moment it's just ever so slightly
>outside the family holiday budget <g> but if it continues, as always, the
>price will come down. If there is a perceived market for tourism then
>arrangements will eventually be made.
>
>The training is more of a handicap than the price; most millionaires are
>busy making money and he trained for a long time. This commitment would
>put off people just keen for the experience rather than obsessed with it.
>
>Jane
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19052
From: David Wright" <maikosht@alltel.net>
Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2001 08:27:03 -0400
Subject: Heinlein Readers Group Log 04-26-2001 Now Available
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
The log for the last meeting on Thursday 4/26/2001 at 9:00 P.M. EDT of
the Heinlein Readers Group Discussion is now available:
http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/TEACH_AIM-04-26-01-2001.html
The topic of discussion was 'Teachers In Heinlein'
--
Related Heinlein Web Pages
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/
http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein.html
http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19053
From: Bill Dauphin <"dauphinb"@ix.netcom.com@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 14:58:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Surprised you didn't find this info on any number of astronomy-related
sites. Even deep-sky astronomers with no interest in obersving the Moon
keep track of its phases... as when it's full, it's hard to observe much of
anything else!
-Bill
Charles Graft wrote:
> All--
> But especially those up on astronomy --
>
> I am in need of knowing the period from one full moon to another
> for a calendar program I am working on. Can anybody give that to me
> to 10 or so decimal places (in days; or days, hours, minutes, and
> seconds or some combination ). I tried getting it from the net and got
> buried in unusable information, but I did use 1998 and 2001 full moon
> day/times to get an approximation.
>
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
> enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19054
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 00:08:49 GMT
Subject: Re: college
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Thu, 26 Apr 2001 23:16:55 GMT, bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob
Lawson) wrote:
>I shall be majoring in physics, and I hope to minor in Spanish.
>Just thought that might be of some note...
>Bob
My best advice: remember to take a course or two just because they
sounded interesting. Of course, this is coming from the guy who
thought he was going to major in Physics and ended up with an English
degree. ;) (I found out I didn't really like Math all that well. I
made the right choice for me. After reading here, I figure Filk got
my share of the Math gene. <VBG>)
Congrats! Now that your decision's made, enjoy the rest of high
school.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19055
From: LORRITA MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2001 22:31:50 -0700
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Bob Lawson" <bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com> wrote in message
news:3ae8ad05.657674@news.sff.net...
> I thought some people might be interested in knowing how the
> applicatons finally panned out.
> Accepted:
> Whitman College
<snipping applied>
Is that the little Presbyterian College in my backyard? Mascot's the
Fighting Missionaries? I've heard it's a good school. They had a good
library, excellent music program, and passable theater arts program when I
was in high school. The Greeks have been a bit rowdy this year. You can
live in Walla Walla and not even know the college or its students are even
there.
--
Later,
`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19056
From: D.S.Higginbotham" <ke4lfg@amsat.org>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 14:43:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote in message <3aea70cf.0@news.sff.net>...
>I hadn't heard. I guess this means he goes? Or is it 'has gone'?
Here is the news itee reported in the 4/27 AARL newsletter:
==>ISS PARTNERS GRANT FLIGHT EXEMPTION FOR DENNIS TITO, KG6FZX
The International Space Station Partnership has granted an exemption for the
flight of American businessman Dennis Tito, KG6FZX, to the ISS aboard a
Russian Soyuz 2 taxi mission. Russia already had given Tito the go ahead to
visit the ISS as part of a three-man team on the 10-day Soyuz mission,
scheduled to begin April 28. NASA has extended the shuttle Endeavour visit
to the ISS by at least a day as the space station crew resolves computer
problems and recommended that Russia postpone the Soyuz mission.
A NASA statement said that following "intense and extensive consultations"
among all space station partners, the Multilateral Coordination Board
"achieved consensus on the proposed Tito flight." A former Jet Propulsion
Lab engineer, Tito, 61, reportedly has agreed to pay the Russian space
program $20 million for the privilege of becoming the first "space tourist."
The public relations value of Tito's imminent visit was not lost on the
Board. "It is understood that Mr. Tito will contribute to the formation of
positive public opinion about the ISS program and the ISS partnership," its
meeting report concluded.
There are conditions to Tito's visit. He reportedly has agreed that neither
he nor his heirs will hold NASA liable for anything that might happen to him
on board and that he will pay for anything he might damage. A NASA task
force has recommended that Tito have an astronaut escort to visit the US
sectors of the ISS and that he sleep near the Soyuz escape vehicle in case
an emergency arises.
During Tito's visit, the crew of Russian Commander Yury Usachev, UA9AD, and
US astronauts Susan Helms, KC7NHZ, and Jim Voss, is expected to adopt a
minimal work routine and maintenance schedule.
Initially, NASA had vigorously opposed allowing Tito to fly to the ISS at
this time and had suggested putting the mission off until later this year.
NASA said the Board agreed that no ISS partner would propose to fly another
"non-professional crewmember" until the ISS partnership had finalized and
adopted detailed crew criteria. Those criteria are to be in place by June.
Tito has been in Russia training to go into space. He took and passed the
Technician exam earlier this month.
NASA sources have said that Tito will have access to the ARISS amateur gear
on a "non-interference basis"--meaning that he must not interfere with the
crew's work or sleep schedules. At this point, the ham gear is installed in
the module that doubles as sleeping quarters for some of the crew. Tito is
not scheduled to be involved in any ARISS school contacts--such QSOs
normally are not scheduled during docked operations anyway, because the crew
is too busy--but it's expected that he may use ham radio to keep in touch
with his family. He's also indicated a preference for packet over FM voice.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19057
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 18:23:33 -0700
Subject: Re: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3AEA8AE4.9C1C1920@aol.com...
> All--
> But especially those up on astronomy --
>
> I am in need of knowing the period from one full moon to another
> for a calendar program I am working on. Can anybody give that to me
> to 10 or so decimal places (in days; or days, hours, minutes, and
> seconds or some combination ). I tried getting it from the net and got
> buried in unusable information, but I did use 1998 and 2001 full moon
> day/times to get an approximation.
The synodic period for the Earth's Moon as seen from Earth is 29 days, 12
hours, 44 min, 1.78 sec.
Hope that helps.:)
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19058
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:44:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Bill--
I got swamped with so much data or how to order books with that
kind of information and so much other information I could not find what
I simply needed.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19059
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 21:46:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Thanks, Filksinger. That should do it; it's what I needed. Can you
give me a full moon time to that accuracy? (in Greenwich or whatever
time zone; )
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19060
From: debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 04:11:10 GMT
Subject: Heinlein Web site ring
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I started a new Heinlein net ring, which you can see on my Heinlein
page at http://www.dahoudek.com/heinlein . It doesn't go anywhere yet
as mine is the only site linked so far. If you have or know of a site
I should invite, please let me know. I looked through the listings on
the Boomis page/ring (which isn't really a ring and has those
obnoxious frames) and found it really tough to sort out the sites that
didn't actually involve major copyright infringements, so I could use
recommendations. Thanks.
JT? Jim? If you'd like to link your sites just hit the "join"
button.
Deb (D.A. Houdek)
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19061
From: SpaceCadet <cadozo@planet-save.com>
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 06:30:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft wrote:
>
> All--
> But especially those up on astronomy --
>
> I am in need of knowing the period from one full moon to another
> for a calendar program I am working on. Can anybody give that to me
> to 10 or so decimal places (in days; or days, hours, minutes, and
> seconds or some combination ).
http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/qadir/q2780.html
A true synodic month is 29.5305882 days of the (
29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes 2.8 seconds). All
phase calculations are based on exact time not on
time zone. Use Universal Time and do the
calculations, you should get the synodic period
exactly. For local time, you have to convert from
UT to your actual local time by correcting for
your longitude relative to Greenwich
http://www.cs.ruu.nl/wais/html/na-dir/astronomy/faq/part3.html
(Good site)
UT (Universal time): Defined by the Earth's
rotation and determined by astronomical
observations. This time scale is slightly
irregular. There are several different definitions
of UT, but the difference between them is always
less than about 0.03 s. Usually one means UT2 when
saying UT. UT2 is UT corrected for pole wandering
and seasonal
variations in the Earth's rotational speed.
http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=54894
The synodic month, or complete cycle of phases of
the Moon as seen from Earth, averages 29.530588
mean solar days in length (i.e., 29 days 12 hours
44 minutes 3 seconds); because of perturbations in
the Moon's orbit, the lengths of all astronomical
months vary slightly.
http://www.astro.wesleyan.edu/~bill/courses/astr107/wes_only/Lectures/lecture5.html
Rotational locking of Earth is proceeding - we are
gradually slowing down, but length
of day is growing only by about 0.01 secs each
century! However, this does lead to the
phenomenon of the "leap second".
Carol
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19062
From: Francesco Spreafico" <laz@libero.it>
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 14:58:06 +0200
Subject: Re: Heinlein Web site ring
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@jps.net> ha scritto:
> as mine is the only site linked so far. If you have or know of a site
> I should invite, please let me know. I looked through the listings on
> the Boomis page/ring (which isn't really a ring and has those
> obnoxious frames) and found it really tough to sort out the sites that
> didn't actually involve major copyright infringements, so I could use
> recommendations. Thanks.
Mine, I think, unless membership's restricted to sites in English :-)
No copyright infringements on my site anyway... and btw, I have lots of
good sites (with no (c) infringements) in my bookmarks, if you want I can
list them here so you can look at them and see if you want to invite them.
But, has the "ring code" to be put on the main page or can it be put
elsewhere (for example in a links page)? Because I want to keep my main
page as light as can be.
--
Francesco
http://heinlein.cjb.net - RAH in Italian
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19063
From: Dean White" <WhiteD@telepath.com>
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 11:13:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3AEE236A.2F214710@aol.com...
> Thanks, Filksinger. That should do it; it's what I needed. Can you
> give me a full moon time to that accuracy? (in Greenwich or whatever
> time zone; )
>
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
> enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
>
>
I have an old DOS program that will list the Moon's ephemeris data for any
date and location for the next 200 years. I can have it list the data if
you want, all that's needed is the date, latitude and longitude.
--
Dean White
www.DeanWhite.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19064
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:44:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3AEE236A.2F214710@aol.com...
> Thanks, Filksinger. That should do it; it's what I needed. Can you
> give me a full moon time to that accuracy? (in Greenwich or whatever
> time zone; )
>
You mean, the time between two full moons? That's it right there. The
synodic period is how long it takes for an orbiting object to appear to be
in the same position in its orbit to the observer. In this case, the
observer is on Earth, and "the same position in its orbit" is the same as
"beginning of a full moon".
Now, if you want to know how long it is from the end of one full moon to the
beginning of the next, that is variable, and I really don't know the average
or the upper and lower limits.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19065
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 10:47:48 -0700
Subject: Re: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"SpaceCadet" <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote in message
news:3AEE9E53.989A1F74@planet-save.com...
<snip>
> http://itss.raytheon.com/cafe/qadir/q2780.html
> A true synodic month is 29.5305882 days of the (
> 29 days, 12 hours, 44 minutes 2.8 seconds). All
> phase calculations are based on exact time not on
> time zone. Use Universal Time and do the
> calculations, you should get the synodic period
> exactly. For local time, you have to convert from
> UT to your actual local time by correcting for
> your longitude relative to Greenwich
<snip>
> http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=54894
> The synodic month, or complete cycle of phases of
> the Moon as seen from Earth, averages 29.530588
> mean solar days in length (i.e., 29 days 12 hours
> 44 minutes 3 seconds); because of perturbations in
> the Moon's orbit, the lengths of all astronomical
> months vary slightly.
>
Odd that both of your answers are the same within the limits of accuracy,
and one second longer than mine. I suspect that mine is inaccurate, as I did
not actually test it for accuracy beyond days, hours, and minutes.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19066
From: noone" <no_one@home>
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 18:00:19 -0000
Subject: Re: Another HF addition.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
a bit late but congratulations and best wishes to you and your lady
"gunner"
"John Paul Vrolyk" <jp@vrolyk.org> wrote in message
news:3AE5FA8F.CD7A1285@vrolyk.org...
> John Paul and Leslie Vrolyk are proud to announce the birth
> of their first-born son, Jack Orion Vrolyk.
>
> Jack was born at 7:38pm, on Monday, April 23, 2001.
>
> He weighed in at 9lbs, 1oz, and was 20" long.
>
> Both mother and baby are recovering well from the rather
> traumatic experience.
>
> More information, and some pictures, can be found at
> young Jack's personal webpage:
> http://www.vrolyk.org/jack/
>
> --
> John Paul Vrolyk
> http://www.vrolyk.org/jp/
> jp@vrolyk.org
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19067
From: SpaceCadet <cadozo@planet-save.com>
Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 19:40:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
>
> "SpaceCadet" <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote in a message...<snip>
>
> Odd that both of your answers are the same within the limits of accuracy,
> and one second longer than mine. I suspect that mine is inaccurate, as I did
> not actually test it for accuracy beyond days, hours, and minutes.
>
> Filksinger
Yeah, Filk, but I didn't test mine at all. I just
cut and pasted them off the web.
Carol
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19068
From: kevin mcgillicuddy" <kmcgillicuddy@austin.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 1 May 2001 22:12:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"D.S.Higginbotham" <ke4lfg@amsat.org> wrote in message
news:3aedc321.0@news.sff.net...
>
snip
> NASA sources have said that Tito will have access to the ARISS amateur
gear
> on a "non-interference basis"--meaning that he must not interfere with the
> crew's work or sleep schedules. >
>
Sure hope there aren't any students up in orbit...
McKevin
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19069
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 00:24:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Thanks, Filksinger and Carol--
Either of the periods you gave me should be accurate enough (I came
up with 29.5305761574074 days for the period) (Compared to Carol's
29.5305882 days) but I need the time of a full (or new) moon in EST,
Greenwich, or other to use as a reference point.
Is the difference due to the difference in data?? BRB -- using
Carol's data, I get 29.530587962963 -- a bit different from hers -- but
I am using "straight" double precision math and there could be rounding
errors.
In terms of y = mx + b. I have the slope and need the intercept.
So far I have used: Full Moon: 7th day of April, 23:22 EST as
my reference, which is probably accurate enough. But if someone has it
more accurately, it would be minor at this point to throw in the
correction.
I originally sat down to write the program to compute Postal
Service pay periods (every other Friday) and print calendars. My goal
for accuracy was any date after* the mid-1700's (Before that the
calendar was different, reform came in in Europe sometime during the
1600's; in the colonies, 1700's) so I referenced all my calculations to
the year 1601, had the current calendar been in use at that time. (This
makes leap years, which are different on century (xx00) years, easier to
calculate.)
But I guess that was not enough of a challenge for me, so I decided
to add moon phases. Been interesting. I don't usually work with
floating point; my actual calendar calculations are all done in long
integer format..
*to the limits of a long integer data type -- 2,147,483,647 days or
about 5.8 million years.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19070
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 00:34:18 -0500
Subject: Anomaly!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
OK, all you computer people--
I ran into an anomaly while doing my calendar program -- I can't
multiply 3600 by 12. I get an overflow. Every time. Using either
double precision or long integer math. Visual basic is my usual
language; but I brought up my old qbasic program and had the same
difficulty. My processor is a 733MHz. pentium III (Intel). I don't
have other hardware around at the moment. The test program is:
---------------------------
dim test as long
test = 3600 * 12
It also fails is you use dim test as a double
what I did to get around it was
test = (3600 * 1.2)*10 which works fine.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19071
From: Anthony Alford" <anthony_alford@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 10:11:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Anomaly!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I tried this on VB 6, and sure enough: run-time error 6. I looked it up in
the docs and would you believe they had an example just like yours? Here's
what they said:
"You attempt to use a number in a calculation, and that number is coerced
into an integer, but the result is larger than an integer. For example:
Dim x As Long
x = 2000 * 365 ' Error: Overflow
To work around this situation, type the number, like this:
Dim x As Long
x = CLng(2000) * 365"
Sure enough, if you do this with your numbers, Charlie, it works. It also
worked if I used 3600.0 (which VB automagically converts to 3600#, meaning
a double-precision floating point number).
I don't think this is an anomaly; I think this is a "feature." I think
what's happening is that the interpreter sees 3600, and it sees 12, and
decides since they are both Integers (which is I guess the default), then if
you multiply them you should get an Integer. Unfortunately, 43,200 is
bigger than 32,767 (the largest positive Integer value). Thus, the
overflow.
What's puzzling me is that you said you tried it with with double-precision
and long integer math. How did you specify that in the code? Or is that an
interpreter option?
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19072
From: Gordon Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 14:41:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Anomaly!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3AEF9C5A.90A0371C@aol.com...
> OK, all you computer people--
> I ran into an anomaly while doing my calendar program -- I can't
> multiply 3600 by 12. I get an overflow. Every time. Using either
> double precision or long integer math. Visual basic is my usual
> language; but I brought up my old qbasic program and had the same
> difficulty. My processor is a 733MHz. pentium III (Intel). I don't
> have other hardware around at the moment. The test program is:
> ---------------------------
> dim test as long
> test = 3600 * 12
> It also fails is you use dim test as a double
I don't know Visual Basic, but I assume that "3600" and "12" are both
integers, which would be a problem in old fashioned languages like FORTRAN.
I would try multiplying 3600 by 12.0. This would force a conversion
/before/ the calculation.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19073
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 2 May 2001 12:09:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"SpaceCadet" <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote in message
news:3AEF5794.40DF1A35@planet-save.com...
> Yeah, Filk, but I didn't test mine at all. I just
> cut and pasted them off the web.
By "test", I meant "compared multiple sources". Since you have two that
match to within 1 second, you did test.
I, OTOH, found only one that gave seconds, and just compared two to the
minute.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19074
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 20:12:49 GMT
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Tue, 1 May 2001 22:12:37 -0500, "kevin mcgillicuddy"
<kmcgillicuddy@austin.rr.com> wrote:
>Sure hope there aren't any students up in orbit...
>
>McKevin
>
Hey, now there's a blast from the past! Howdy. Give us a "Roll Call"
update, RAHketeer! ;)
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19075
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 20:12:49 GMT
Subject: Re: Heinlein Web site ring
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Tue, 01 May 2001 04:11:10 GMT, debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
wrote:
>
> JT? Jim? If you'd like to link your sites just hit the "join"
>button.
>
I'll definitely add the HF page in , it just might take a few more of
Danny's nap cycles. <VBG>
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19076
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 20:14:20 GMT
Subject: Interesting NASA web site
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Found this link in a newspaper article:
http://www.gsfc.nasa.gov/gsfc/earth/imaging/landsat.htm
It lets you browse through much of the Landsat images, including some
neat compliations that "zoom" into several different cities.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19077
From: Wayne Morgan <morganwh@indy.net>
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 15:42:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Could you possibly get that time from a GPS? My GPS III+ will give
moonrise/moonset but I haven't looked to see if it indicates a full moon
Charles Graft wrote:
> Thanks, Filksinger and Carol--
>
> Either of the periods you gave me should be accurate enough (I came
> up with 29.5305761574074 days for the period) (Compared to Carol's
> 29.5305882 days) but I need the time of a full (or new) moon in EST,
> Greenwich, or other to use as a reference point.
>
> Is the difference due to the difference in data?? BRB -- using
> Carol's data, I get 29.530587962963 -- a bit different from hers -- but
> I am using "straight" double precision math and there could be rounding
> errors.
>
> In terms of y = mx + b. I have the slope and need the intercept.
>
> So far I have used: Full Moon: 7th day of April, 23:22 EST as
> my reference, which is probably accurate enough. But if someone has it
> more accurately, it would be minor at this point to throw in the
> correction.
>
> I originally sat down to write the program to compute Postal
> Service pay periods (every other Friday) and print calendars. My goal
> for accuracy was any date after* the mid-1700's (Before that the
> calendar was different, reform came in in Europe sometime during the
> 1600's; in the colonies, 1700's) so I referenced all my calculations to
> the year 1601, had the current calendar been in use at that time. (This
> makes leap years, which are different on century (xx00) years, easier to
> calculate.)
>
> But I guess that was not enough of a challenge for me, so I decided
> to add moon phases. Been interesting. I don't usually work with
> floating point; my actual calendar calculations are all done in long
> integer format..
>
> *to the limits of a long integer data type -- 2,147,483,647 days or
> about 5.8 million years.
>
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
> enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19078
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 17:55:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Anomaly!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Anthony--
Thank you, that is what it was doing. If both your operators are
integers, the answer is assumed to be an integer. No matter how you
declare the data type of you answer. When I did the
((3600 * 1.2)*10
it forced the data type to double.
How did I get in to this? I was using a constant of
const sHour =3600
and figuring a syndic period containing 12 hours.
By changing it to
const sHour = 3600#,
it works fine.
or if I enter it as "3600." the syntax checker converts it to 3600#.
Seems strange to me. You would (or at least I would) think that if the
answer is declared to be a long or double, the program would
automatically do, or at least allow, long or double arithmetic.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19079
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 18:28:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Anomaly!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Gordon Sollars wrote:
> I don't know Visual Basic, but I assume that "3600" and "12" are both
> integers, which would be a problem in old fashioned languages like FORTRAN.
> I would try multiplying 3600 by 12.0. This would force a conversion
> /before/ the calculation.
That works also. The syntax checker changes the 12.0 to 12#, but it does
the job.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm.-- Vince
Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19080
From: SpaceCadet <cadozo@planet-save.com>
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 01:44:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
>
> "SpaceCadet" <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote in message
> news:3AEF5794.40DF1A35@planet-save.com...
>
> > Yeah, Filk, but I didn't test mine at all. I just
> > cut and pasted them off the web.
>
> By "test", I meant "compared multiple sources". Since you have two that
> match to within 1 second, you did test.
>
> I, OTOH, found only one that gave seconds, and just compared two to the
> minute.
>
Darn! I had this image of you standing outside
night after night, stopwatch in hand, waiting
patiently for the full moon to return.
Carol
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19081
From: SpaceCadet <cadozo@planet-save.com>
Date: Thu, 03 May 2001 02:06:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Anomaly!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft wrote:
> Seems strange to me. You would (or at least I would) think that if the
> answer is declared to be a long or double, the program would
> automatically do, or at least allow, long or double arithmetic.
>
I'd bet the problem has to do with how the
compiler uses the registers. If the numbers are
just ints (not long ints), it will probably use,
say RegA=3600 and RegB=12 where RegA & RegB have
enough bits to store only short ints. Then the
multiply command says let RegB = RegA * RegB. But
the result is a long int, and RegB can't hold a
long int so the overflow flag is tripped, and you
get an error. But, if the compiler knows ahead of
time that one of the numbers in the next process
will be a long int, it will use a larger (more
bits) Register we'll call RegD to store the long
int, while still storing the shorter number in
RegA or RegB. Then the code will tell the
processor to execute RegD = RegD * RegA. Thus the
answer is stored in a RegD, a register big enough
for a long int and, for a brief moment, all is
right with the world.
I may be totally wrong about this. It's been while
since I've done any coding, and I may have
misunderstood exactly what BC's problem really is.
I'm pretty sleepy. I'll be interested to see if
anyone else has a guess or, an opinion on my
guess, as to what's causing the problem.
Carol
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19082
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 3 May 2001 18:46:28 -0700
Subject: Spam Motel
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
A short while ago, I posted a method for "tagging" email addresses.
Unfortunately, some forwarders and news programs (and possibly email
programs) freak out when you use it, so it may not be very useful.
I have found something much more useful.
It is called Spam Motel (www.spammotel.com). It is a truly cool service,
which you can get via webpage or software.
It works like this. You want to give an email address to a website so you
can sign up for their cool service. However, you are suspicious (their name
is www.welovespam.com). So, you ask Spam Motel for an email address, and
give it the comment www.welovespam.com.
Spam Motel generates a valid random spammotel.com email address (example:
JLRFRLYPKYJL@spammotel.com, which works). Anything sent to that address is
forwarded to you, with a bit of explanatory text at the top, including
whatever comments you added when you set it up. If you reply to any message
that comes through Spam Motel, it goes to them, has their comments and your
email address stripped away, and is sent on with the same initial Spam Motel
address the email from the original sender came in on. Thus, if you send a
message to JLRFRLYPKYJL@spammotel.com, then it arrives in my mailbox with a
note and some other comments, so I know it is from here. If I reply, you get
an email from that same address, with all comments (and my address) removed.
So, what does this do for you? Simple. Suppose www.welovespam.com sold the
above address to spammers? Well, you will receive spam to a unique address
that was only given to www.welovespam.com _and_ which has a comment to that
effect attached.
So, you can filter out all spam to that address _and_ you can tell everyone
that www.welovespam.com sold your address. And Spam Motel will even filter
it out for you.
Cool, no?
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19083
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:53:32 GMT
Subject: E-mail change Redux
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
AT&T pissed me off, so I left. My e-mail goes back to what it was.
Fader
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19084
From: noone" <no_one@home>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 08:56:40 -0000
Subject: Re: Spam Motel
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
lets see if i have this right? the spam checks in but it never checks out!
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3af20a01.0@news.sff.net...
> A short while ago, I posted a method for "tagging" email addresses.
> Unfortunately, some forwarders and news programs (and possibly email
> programs) freak out when you use it, so it may not be very useful.
>
> I have found something much more useful.
>
> It is called Spam Motel (www.spammotel.com). It is a truly cool service,
> which you can get via webpage or software.
>
> It works like this. You want to give an email address to a website so you
> can sign up for their cool service. However, you are suspicious (their
name
> is www.welovespam.com). So, you ask Spam Motel for an email address, and
> give it the comment www.welovespam.com.
>
> Spam Motel generates a valid random spammotel.com email address (example:
> JLRFRLYPKYJL@spammotel.com, which works). Anything sent to that address is
> forwarded to you, with a bit of explanatory text at the top, including
> whatever comments you added when you set it up. If you reply to any
message
> that comes through Spam Motel, it goes to them, has their comments and
your
> email address stripped away, and is sent on with the same initial Spam
Motel
> address the email from the original sender came in on. Thus, if you send a
> message to JLRFRLYPKYJL@spammotel.com, then it arrives in my mailbox with
a
> note and some other comments, so I know it is from here. If I reply, you
get
> an email from that same address, with all comments (and my address)
removed.
>
> So, what does this do for you? Simple. Suppose www.welovespam.com sold the
> above address to spammers? Well, you will receive spam to a unique address
> that was only given to www.welovespam.com _and_ which has a comment to
that
> effect attached.
>
> So, you can filter out all spam to that address _and_ you can tell
everyone
> that www.welovespam.com sold your address. And Spam Motel will even filter
> it out for you.
>
> Cool, no?
>
> Filksinger
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19085
From: Eli Hestermann <Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu>
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 09:52:16 -0400
Subject: Re: E-mail change Redux
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Fader wrote:
> AT&T pissed me off, so I left. My e-mail goes back to what it was.
>
> Fader
What happened? We've been thinking about signing on with them, so I'm
interested in data, if you don't mind.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa." -Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19086
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 4 May 2001 10:00:52 -0700
Subject: Re: Spam Motel
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"noone" <no_one@home> wrote in message news:3af2a6b1.0@news.sff.net...
> lets see if i have this right? the spam checks in but it never checks out!
There's always one person who has to say it....
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19087
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Fri, 04 May 2001 23:59:43 GMT
Subject: Re: E-mail change Redux
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Fri, 04 May 2001 09:53:32 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>AT&T pissed me off, so I left. My e-mail goes back to what it was.
>
>Fader
Here's where I make a pitch for using one of the "free for life"
remailer addresses. For example, my wife has an address at mail.com.
(I believe usa.net does the same kind of thing, I believe yahoo mail
does also. Filk brought it up originally & got me researching it.)
Anyway, Christine's email address is @mail.com, but she rarely reads
her mail there. Instead we forward it automatically to our current
ISP's mailbox account, where she can bring it into Outlook Express.
Advantages:
--It's free.
--We've changed ISPs three times since then, and she's never had to
notify anyone about the change, since her mailing address has stayed
constant.
--If we go away for an extended period of time, she stops the
forwarding and can manage her mail via the web. If your ISP doesn't
provide that functionality (ours doesn't), that's a plus.
Disadvantages:
--They may someday charge for the service, even though they say they
won't.
Just my thoughts on email. I wish phone numbers were as portable. (Or
do I?)
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19088
From: noone" <no_one@home>
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 04:18:36 -0000
Subject: Re: Spam Motel
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
oops, sorry, forgot to sign that last, you should know who to blame.
"gunner"
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3af2e04b.0@news.sff.net...
>
> "noone" <no_one@home> wrote in message news:3af2a6b1.0@news.sff.net...
> > lets see if i have this right? the spam checks in but it never checks
out!
>
> There's always one person who has to say it....
>
> Filksinger
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19089
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 10:19:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Spam Motel
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Fri, 4 May 2001 10:00:52 -0700, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>> lets see if i have this right? the spam checks in but it never checks out!
>
>There's always one person who has to say it....
>
Filk, Be happy it's just one, around here something like this is
almost a open casting call.<G>
Fader
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19090
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 11:07:32 GMT
Subject: Re: E-mail change Redux
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Fri, 04 May 2001 09:52:16 -0400, Eli Hestermann
<Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu> wrote:
>What happened? We've been thinking about signing on with them, so I'm
>interested in data, if you don't mind.
>
After being on for about a week, I tried to log-in to get my e-mail, I
get an error message saying either no registered member or wrong
password. Tried again, same thing, in fact we tried 3 more times,
iknowing each time after the first that I wasn't getting it wrong.
So, off to Online Help Chat we go. what's the problem, blah blah.Then
the first thing this guy asks is for me to type in my Name & password,
which I think is somewhat strange (from a personal security POV), I
refuse. He says that he just wants to check that I'm getting the whole
case thing right, I assure him that I'm getting it right & inquire
about what else might be the problem. After a bit of waiting it turns
out that the mail system is down for bi-weekly maintenance. "Why
doesn't it say that then, instead of driving me crazy, & wasting my
time & yours" He tells me GIGO, as the reason which I think is a
little lame since this doesn't seem all that technologically advanced,
which I point out to him,I then thank him & go.
Sometime later (week,maybe), I login to my mail,to find new folders,
which I can't delete & I didn't add. Again a trip to "help" seems in
order. Seems that the webpage was redone,because some people requested
these things, he was sorry for the inconvience. After a bunch of back
& forth, (mostly about why those that wanted these folders not adding
them themselves, & why they couldn't be deleted, & WHY I WASN'T
NOTIFIED BEFORE CHANGES WERE MADE, unless they just really don't care
to be bothered) once again I thank him & go.
So thats basically the story ( some of the wording was changed to
protect the innocence<G>) I just feel that I want/need this stuff to
make life easier/smoother & don't really need the hassle, there's too
many web services out there for me to put up with this type of
high-handness, guess I'm old-fashioned when it comes to customer
relations.
Probably I'm just being grumpy
Fader
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19091
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 09:13:57 -0500
Subject: Re: Anomaly!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
SpaceCadet wrote:
> Charles Graft wrote:
> > Seems strange to me. You would (or at least I would) think that if the
> > answer is declared to be a long or double, the program would
> > automatically do, or at least allow, long or double arithmetic.
> >
>
> But, if the compiler knows ahead of
> time that one of the numbers in the next process
> will be a long int, it will use a larger (more
> bits) Register we'll call RegD to store the long
> int, while still storing the shorter number in
> RegA or RegB. Then the code will tell the
> processor to execute RegD = RegD * RegA. Thus the
> answer is stored in a RegD, a register big enough
> for a long int and, for a brief moment, all is
> right with the world.
>
> Carol
Carol--
That's how I think it should work. But it doesn't, at least not in
basic. I had declared the answer to be a double precision answer; but one of
my small integers has to be tagged as long or single or double for it to
work. That's why it threw me.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm.--
Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19092
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 09:16:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Question --
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
SpaceCadet wrote:
> Darn! I had this image of you standing outside
> night after night, stopwatch in hand, waiting
> patiently for the full moon to return.
>
> Carol
Carol--
It's cloudy too many nights here. Besides, I'm usually at work. <VBG>
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm.--
Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19093
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 12:10:56 -0400
Subject: Re: E-mail change Redux
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Fader: I'd guess that most of us here have the same 'grumpy'
reaction to high-handedness. That sure as hell doesn't sound like
good customer service to me.
Ed J (2 cents worth)
On Sat, 05 May 2001 11:07:32 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>>
>After being on for about a week, I tried to log-in to get my e-mail, I
>get an error message saying either no registered member or wrong
>password. Tried again, same thing, in fact we tried 3 more times,
>iknowing each time after the first that I wasn't getting it wrong.
>
>So, off to Online Help Chat we go. what's the problem, blah blah.Then
>the first thing this guy asks is for me to type in my Name & password,
>which I think is somewhat strange (from a personal security POV), I
>refuse. He says that he just wants to check that I'm getting the whole
>case thing right, I assure him that I'm getting it right & inquire
>about what else might be the problem. After a bit of waiting it turns
>out that the mail system is down for bi-weekly maintenance. "Why
>doesn't it say that then, instead of driving me crazy, & wasting my
>time & yours" He tells me GIGO, as the reason which I think is a
>little lame since this doesn't seem all that technologically advanced,
>which I point out to him,I then thank him & go.
>
>Sometime later (week,maybe), I login to my mail,to find new folders,
>which I can't delete & I didn't add. Again a trip to "help" seems in
>order. Seems that the webpage was redone,because some people requested
>these things, he was sorry for the inconvience. After a bunch of back
>& forth, (mostly about why those that wanted these folders not adding
>them themselves, & why they couldn't be deleted, & WHY I WASN'T
>NOTIFIED BEFORE CHANGES WERE MADE, unless they just really don't care
>to be bothered) once again I thank him & go.
>
>So thats basically the story ( some of the wording was changed to
>protect the innocence<G>) I just feel that I want/need this stuff to
>make life easier/smoother & don't really need the hassle, there's too
>many web services out there for me to put up with this type of
>high-handness, guess I'm old-fashioned when it comes to customer
>relations.
>
>Probably I'm just being grumpy
>
>Fader
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19094
From: SpaceCadet <cadozo@planet-save.com>
Date: Sat, 05 May 2001 14:01:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Anomaly!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft wrote:
>
> SpaceCadet wrote:
>
> > Charles Graft wrote:
> > > Seems strange to me. You would (or at least I would) think that if the
> > > answer is declared to be a long or double, the program would
> > > automatically do, or at least allow, long or double arithmetic.
> > >
> >
> > But, if the compiler knows ahead of
> > time that one of the numbers in the next process
> > will be a long int...
> Carol--
> That's how I think it should work. But it doesn't, at least not in
> basic. I had declared the answer to be a double precision answer; but one of
> my small integers has to be tagged as long or single or double for it to
> work. That's why it threw me.
BC,
I think that's because the compiler doesn't check
ahead to see what form the answer will take. It
sees A * B and decides to execute that first. So
it sets up the math in the smaller registers. It
then plans to put the answer in a larger register
for future handling as a big number. But the
number is already too big, so it causes an
overflow before the transfer happens. This may be
sloppy compiler design, but what can you do. If
coding was too easy, it wouldn't pay quite so
well.
Carol
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19095
From: georule" <georule@citlink.net>
Date: Sat, 5 May 2001 18:55:18 -0700
Subject: Re: Announcement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I sent a couple emails to the nitrosyncretic email address, but got no
response. At any rate, great news!
"James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3ADCEFD8.268CD739@rcsis.com...
> I was going to wait until the final list was posted (sometime later this
> month), but this isn't the kind of news I can sit on. I got the
> confirmation call yesterday:
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19096
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Sun, 06 May 2001 20:54:29 -0700
Subject: Re: Announcement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
> "James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote
> > I was going to wait until the final list was posted (sometime later this
> > month), but this isn't the kind of news I can sit on. I got the
> > confirmation call yesterday:
georule wrote:
> I sent a couple emails to the nitrosyncretic email address, but got no
> response. At any rate, great news!
Sorry; got 'em, just busy as an octopus with itchy pits these days.
Thanks! Now, on to the award...
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19097
From: Eli Hestermann <Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu>
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 11:10:22 -0400
Subject: Re: E-mail change Redux
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Some college alumni associations are doing this now. I have one through
MIT, and Purdue just sent us info saying that they're setting it up as
well.
Of course, you still need an ISP to read the mail in the first place.
JT wrote:
> Here's where I make a pitch for using one of the "free for life"
> remailer addresses. For example, my wife has an address at mail.com.
> (I believe usa.net does the same kind of thing, I believe yahoo mail
> does also. Filk brought it up originally & got me researching it.)
>
> Anyway, Christine's email address is @mail.com, but she rarely reads
> her mail there. Instead we forward it automatically to our current
> ISP's mailbox account, where she can bring it into Outlook Express.
>
> Advantages:
> --It's free.
> --We've changed ISPs three times since then, and she's never had to
> notify anyone about the change, since her mailing address has stayed
> constant.
> --If we go away for an extended period of time, she stops the
> forwarding and can manage her mail via the web. If your ISP doesn't
> provide that functionality (ours doesn't), that's a plus.
>
> Disadvantages:
> --They may someday charge for the service, even though they say they
> won't.
>
> Just my thoughts on email. I wish phone numbers were as portable. (Or
> do I?)
>
> JT
--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa." -Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19098
From: Eli Hestermann <Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu>
Date: Mon, 07 May 2001 11:10:44 -0400
Subject: Re: E-mail change Redux
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
What Ed said! Thanks for the info, Fader.
Ed Johnson wrote:
> Fader: I'd guess that most of us here have the same 'grumpy'
> reaction to high-handedness. That sure as hell doesn't sound like
> good customer service to me.
>
> Ed J (2 cents worth)
>
> On Sat, 05 May 2001 11:07:32 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>
> >>
> >After being on for about a week, I tried to log-in to get my e-mail, I
> >get an error message saying either no registered member or wrong
> >password. Tried again, same thing, in fact we tried 3 more times,
> >iknowing each time after the first that I wasn't getting it wrong.
> >
> >So, off to Online Help Chat we go. what's the problem, blah blah.Then
> >the first thing this guy asks is for me to type in my Name & password,
> >which I think is somewhat strange (from a personal security POV), I
> >refuse. He says that he just wants to check that I'm getting the whole
> >case thing right, I assure him that I'm getting it right & inquire
> >about what else might be the problem. After a bit of waiting it turns
> >out that the mail system is down for bi-weekly maintenance. "Why
> >doesn't it say that then, instead of driving me crazy, & wasting my
> >time & yours" He tells me GIGO, as the reason which I think is a
> >little lame since this doesn't seem all that technologically advanced,
> >which I point out to him,I then thank him & go.
> >
> >Sometime later (week,maybe), I login to my mail,to find new folders,
> >which I can't delete & I didn't add. Again a trip to "help" seems in
> >order. Seems that the webpage was redone,because some people requested
> >these things, he was sorry for the inconvience. After a bunch of back
> >& forth, (mostly about why those that wanted these folders not adding
> >them themselves, & why they couldn't be deleted, & WHY I WASN'T
> >NOTIFIED BEFORE CHANGES WERE MADE, unless they just really don't care
> >to be bothered) once again I thank him & go.
> >
> >So thats basically the story ( some of the wording was changed to
> >protect the innocence<G>) I just feel that I want/need this stuff to
> >make life easier/smoother & don't really need the hassle, there's too
> >many web services out there for me to put up with this type of
> >high-handness, guess I'm old-fashioned when it comes to customer
> >relations.
> >
> >Probably I'm just being grumpy
> >
> >Fader
--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa." -Seneca
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Article 19148
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 00:12:43 GMT
Subject: Re: How are we all doing?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sat, 19 May 2001 23:48:56 GMT, JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT) wrote:
>We had the pleasure of meeting Jack Vrolyk a few weeks ago. I've got
>some pictures but have not yet posted them anywhere. Jack is a great
>little guy, and Leslie & John Paul are doing well as parents.
>
And I finally scaled the pictures down a bit and put them up on a
page:
http://hammer.prohosting.com/~tilden/vrolykvisit/vrolykvisit.htm
Enjoy.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19149
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 02:31:28 -0400
Subject: Re: How are we all doing?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote
> >We had the pleasure of meeting Jack Vrolyk a few weeks ago. I've got
> >some pictures but have not yet posted them anywhere. Jack is a great
> >little guy, and Leslie & John Paul are doing well as parents.
> >
> And I finally scaled the pictures down a bit and put them up on a
> page:
> http://hammer.prohosting.com/~tilden/vrolykvisit/vrolykvisit.htm
>
Thanks for the pics. Jack looks good, Daniel looks huge! <g>
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19150
From: Randy J. Jost" <rjost@ece.usu.edu>
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 08:57:15 -0600
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
JT wrote:
>
> Any other Palm users out there? I've had a Palm III and V, and just
> got the m505, which is my first experience with color.
I got a Palm IIIxe about 6 months ago, and I use it for everything. On
the other hand, it isn't the end all and be all of hand helds, but it is
great for what it was designed for. On the gripping hand, I am planning
on getting a pocket PC in a few weeks, in order to do some things that
the Palm just doesn't can't do yet. Maybe after that, I'll be able to
make an informed comparison
> The color is not great, requires just the right lighting to look good,
> but it is OK. This thing comes with 8 meg of RAM and I've got an
> expansion card of 16 meg. So it's got more RAM than my first two PCs
> did!
Makes you wonder, doesn't it, considering how far and how fast we've
come over the past 20 years, where we'll be 20 years from now.
> Some neat freebies came packaged with it, among them a photo program
> so now I don't whip out my wallet to show pictures of Daniel, I get
> out my Palm and do a slideshow. ;)
>
> It also came with the AvantGo software. The way this works is they
> package "channels" of web pages that are optimized to be downloaded to
> the Palm. When you do a "synch" with your PC the AvantGo software
> checks the web via your PC, and downloads new pages in your designated
> channels. So I can take CNN's current stories with me, and the SciFi
> Channel's "NewsWire". The really neat thing is you can design your
> *own* channels, so in playing around I created a channel that consists
> of the WebNews version of sff.discuss.heinlein-forum. Now I can bring
> the HF with me! Of course, I can't compose replies, but it's a
> heckuva lot smaller than a laptop.
I'd be curious to learn how you did this. I haven't had time to explore
all the facets of my Palm yet, so I haven't really worked with channels
yet.
> If I wanted to spend another $100 I could get a wireless modem, but
> then I'd also have a monthly charge to use their ISP to connect. That
> would give me real-time web access, but at a very SLOOOW rate. No
> thanks.
>
> I mostly use the Palm for meeting reminders, but I also find it a
> great address book. We've used it several times travelling. I also
> synch my Outlook "Contacts" between work and home, so I only have to
> maintain one list of email addresses (and it's backed up in three
> places).
>
> Anyway, if you've used a Palm and you have any software
> recommendations, I'd love to hear about them. I'll read about
> PocketPC stuff, too, I just am not going to have any direct experience
> with them for a while.
>
> JT
What kind of software are you looking for? For instance, I'm an
astronomy buff, and have several planetarium/astro info programs loaded
into my Palm. I also have a better calculator that does scientific
calculations loaded, as well as some science & engineering programs.
And somehow, several games found their way onto my palm. I also keep
several data list loaded on my system - books and CD's I'm looking for,
and it's possible to load e-books and databases on the system.
Isn't one of the list members a games programmer? I'd like to find a
really good solitaire game for my Palm. I have a copy of a freecell
port, and another solitaire pack that has three games. I'm sure you've
come across the major download sites already, but I can suggest a few if
you are looking.
Best regards,
Randy
--
....of course, that was *before* the Hamster King
started telling me what to do...
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19151
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 13:18:58 -0400
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <3b0d94d6.40440730@news.sff.net>, JT writes...
....
> Now I can bring
> the HF with me! Of course, I can't compose replies, but it's a
> heckuva lot smaller than a laptop.
You want us to know that you can read this stuff without being able to
respond!?! Isn't that a good definition of masochism? ;-)
....
> I mostly use the Palm for meeting reminders, but I also find it a
> great address book. We've used it several times travelling.
The best tool, with the greatest bandwidth for access, that I have found
for meetings is my "week-at-a-glance" pocket calendar. Of course, when I
need a phone number, I call my wife for it on the cell phone. She has
all of that in her Jornada. ;-)
--
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19152
From: Eli Hestermann <Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu>
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 14:17:31 -0400
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Just got a Visor Platinum a couple months ago. Sort of wish I'd spent
the extra $100 and gotten the Edge (thinner, lighter, rechargable
battery) or the extra $150 for the Prism (color). It's the first thing
I've found that keeps me organized (relatively speaking).
You might want to check out sff.discuss.palmos There's not a lot fo
traffic there, but specific software does gete reviewed and folks are
willing and often able to answer questions.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa." -Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19153
From: Randy J. Jost" <rjost@ece.usu.edu>
Date: Fri, 25 May 2001 12:49:42 -0600
Subject: Are you a disaster fan?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
For those that like to watch train wrecks, ships going down, etc., here
is an interesting link you might enjoy. It is the RealAudio version of
a program that played on NPR's This American Life.
http://www.thislife.org/ra/61.ram
If you are a fan of disasters, this one has several humorous ones in it.
Randy
--
....of course, that was *before* the Hamster King
started telling me what to do...
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19154
From: LORRITA MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 26 May 2001 14:09:57 -0700
Subject: Pretty Good Solitaire
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Has anyone else visited Tom's not so little web site lately? Goodsol
development has really grown! And to think we knew him when.
Good work Tom!
--
Later,
`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19155
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 01:34:14 GMT
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Fri, 25 May 2001 08:57:15 -0600, "Randy J. Jost"
<rjost@ece.usu.edu> wrote:
>I'd be curious to learn how you did this. I haven't had time to explore
>all the facets of my Palm yet, so I haven't really worked with channels
>yet.
>
Actually, it was pretty easy. Just go to www.avantgo.com and start
reading. I think the software is free, like I said it came bundled
with the m505. I know the web account that sets up the channels is
free. Setting up the channel was as easy as finding out the URL for
the group via webnews and playing with just a couple of settings. I'm
still not done with that part--for example, currently I'm downloading
graphics so the "Webnews" graphic takes up a large part of every
screen; I need to turn that option off.
>What kind of software are you looking for?
Mostly games. ;) But I'm curious what other people are using their
portables for, too. It's really just a diversion, as I don't spend a
lot of time using the machine. I imagine if I travelled more I would.
>Isn't one of the list members a games programmer?
You're probably thinking of Tom Warfield. www.goodsol.com would tell
if he's ported to the Palm yet. If he has, it'd be worth the fee. I
don't play many card games myself.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19156
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 01:34:15 GMT
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Fri, 25 May 2001 13:18:58 -0400, Gordon G. Sollars
<gsollars@pobox.com> wrote:
>You want us to know that you can read this stuff without being able to
>respond!?! Isn't that a good definition of masochism? ;-)
>...
Actually, I think it might actually work to respond, too (I've played
with it a bit since my first post) but since it's not as quick as
Agent I really am not going to bother with it.
I just wanted to know how to do it so when my bosses start asking me
questions about channels I can help them. That's really why I'm able
to get the toys I do. <VBG>
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19157
From: David" <dwrighsr@alltel.net>
Date: Sun, 27 May 2001 07:57:34 -0400
Subject: Discussion Log for 5-26-2001 Heinlein Readers Group now available
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
The discussion Log for Saturday 5-26-2001 meeting of the Heinlein
Readers Group is no available at :
http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/HUMOR_AIM_05-26-2001.html
The topic was 'Humor in Heinlein'.
Instructions for obtaining AIM software is available at:
http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html
--
Related Heinlein Web Pages
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/
http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein.html
http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19158
From: Dwayne" <nospam@junkmail.com>
Date: Mon, 28 May 2001 10:59:52 -0500
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Hello Fellow Palm-head!
I also just got a Palm 505 and have had palms since the Palm III.
It is my second brain, and my portable extension of my Mycroft Holmes IV
computer at home. ;^D
Good place to start for more info is www.palminfocenter.com ,
www.brighthand.com , www.palmstation.com , www.the-gadgeteer.com , and of
course comp.sys.palmtops.pilot and alt.comp.sys.palmtops.pilot these are
all great sources of information. www.palmgear.com is the best source for
software both shareware and freeware.
I use mine for the normal business related stuff, plus to read lots of books
on. I love carrying books with me on my 16 mb card.
Great solitare and freecell games are at www.red-mercury.com they are
called AcidSolitaire and AcidFreecell. Awesome games. plus you need
bejeweled at www.astraware.com. Vexed can be found by doing a search on
PalmGear, and is another simple addictive game and is freeware to boot.
Enjoy! The 505 is a wonderful machine and a beautiful melding of form and
function. It isn't the brightest screen, but it is the most useful screen on
a small form factor.
Dwayne Wilson
wilsondm2 (at) earthlink (dot) net
"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3b0d94d6.40440730@news.sff.net...
> Any other Palm users out there? I've had a Palm III and V, and just
> got the m505, which is my first experience with color.
>
> The color is not great, requires just the right lighting to look good,
> but it is OK. This thing comes with 8 meg of RAM and I've got an
> expansion card of 16 meg. So it's got more RAM than my first two PCs
> did!
>
> Some neat freebies came packaged with it, among them a photo program
> so now I don't whip out my wallet to show pictures of Daniel, I get
> out my Palm and do a slideshow. ;)
>
> It also came with the AvantGo software. The way this works is they
> package "channels" of web pages that are optimized to be downloaded to
> the Palm. When you do a "synch" with your PC the AvantGo software
> checks the web via your PC, and downloads new pages in your designated
> channels. So I can take CNN's current stories with me, and the SciFi
> Channel's "NewsWire". The really neat thing is you can design your
> *own* channels, so in playing around I created a channel that consists
> of the WebNews version of sff.discuss.heinlein-forum. Now I can bring
> the HF with me! Of course, I can't compose replies, but it's a
> heckuva lot smaller than a laptop.
>
> If I wanted to spend another $100 I could get a wireless modem, but
> then I'd also have a monthly charge to use their ISP to connect. That
> would give me real-time web access, but at a very SLOOOW rate. No
> thanks.
>
> I mostly use the Palm for meeting reminders, but I also find it a
> great address book. We've used it several times travelling. I also
> synch my Outlook "Contacts" between work and home, so I only have to
> maintain one list of email addresses (and it's backed up in three
> places).
>
> Anyway, if you've used a Palm and you have any software
> recommendations, I'd love to hear about them. I'll read about
> PocketPC stuff, too, I just am not going to have any direct experience
> with them for a while.
>
> JT
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19159
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 12:27:41 -0700
Subject: New Heinlein Book Announcement!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
sff.people.robert-a-heinlein
I apologize in advance for this brief commercial interruption.
_The Martian Named Smith: Critical Perspectives on Robert A. Heinlein's
Stranger in a Strange Land_, is ahead of press schedule. It is now on
advance sale and the first copies will ship on Monday, 18 June.
Complete information can be found at:
http://www.nitrosyncretic.com/news-004.html
We now duck quietly out and leave you in commercial-free peace. :)
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19160
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:39:26 GMT
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Mon, 28 May 2001 10:59:52 -0500, "Dwayne" <nospam@junkmail.com>
wrote:
>Hello Fellow Palm-head!
>
Only when I've had a little too much to drink. ;)
Thanks for the websites, and welcome to the group, Dwayne! I don't
remember the email you posted at the end of your note, so I assume
it's a "DeLurking" for you.
Please, post a rant or question or something. It's too quiet around
here these days--and it's not even Summer (U.S.) yet!
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19161
From: Dwayne" <nospam@junkmail.com>
Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 23:04:17 -0500
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Thank you for the welcome. Man you ain't kidding its quiet over
here....(echo, echo, echo)
I usually hang out in the alt.fan.heinlein where I consider it a pleasure to
catch the posts of Mrs. Heinlein now and again. I have lurked in and out
over here for years, but when I saw your palm post, I had to reply.
BTW, look around on the usenet and the boards for msmount and powerrun if
you are using your sd card at all. msmount allows you to put doc files on
your sd card and see them with your doc reader. IE: I have 8mb of doc on the
card and read them with CSpotRun. Powerrun lets you put actual applications
on the SD cards and leaves shortcuts in the main ram of the palm. All handy
stuff !
Thanks again for the welcome.
Dwayne Wilson
wilsondm2 (at) earthlink (dot) net
"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3b143289.114601698@news.sff.net...
> On Mon, 28 May 2001 10:59:52 -0500, "Dwayne" <nospam@junkmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Hello Fellow Palm-head!
> >
> Only when I've had a little too much to drink. ;)
>
> Thanks for the websites, and welcome to the group, Dwayne! I don't
> remember the email you posted at the end of your note, so I assume
> it's a "DeLurking" for you.
>
> Please, post a rant or question or something. It's too quiet around
> here these days--and it's not even Summer (U.S.) yet!
>
> JT
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19162
From: noone" <no_one@home>
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 00:32:02 -0000
Subject: Re: New Heinlein Book Announcement!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
sff.people.robert-a-heinlein
"commercials" like this i have no problem with! thanks for keeping us
posted.
(bad pun, bad pun, no donut)
"gunner"
"James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3B13F82D.88A231EE@rcsis.com...
> I apologize in advance for this brief commercial interruption.
>
> _The Martian Named Smith: Critical Perspectives on Robert A. Heinlein's
> Stranger in a Strange Land_, is ahead of press schedule. It is now on
> advance sale and the first copies will ship on Monday, 18 June.
>
> Complete information can be found at:
>
> http://www.nitrosyncretic.com/news-004.html
>
> We now duck quietly out and leave you in commercial-free peace. :)
>
> --
>
> | James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
> | See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19163
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 09:05:54 -0700
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Dwayne" <nospam@junkmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b147143.0@news.sff.net...
> Thank you for the welcome. Man you ain't kidding its quiet over
> here....(echo, echo, echo)
It is usually much noisier, but we get our quiet periods.
Now, shall we discuss the merits of allowing individuals to own nuclear
weapons, whether or not ozone depletion by CFCs is real, or revive the
thread on the nature of the required national service in ST?;)
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19164
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:21:18 -0400
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
>
> Now, shall we discuss the merits of allowing individuals to own nuclear
> weapons, whether or not ozone depletion by CFCs is real, or revive the
> thread on the nature of the required national service in ST?;)
>
> Filksinger
I was thinking about that recently...what do you suppose would have
happened to that society if the Bugs had been on the verge of
invading/winning? Do you think they would have abandoned their principles
and instituted a draft?
If they did, after the war was won ( no point in looking at the
alternative) what would the effect be of all those extra voters who were
forced into being responsible for their own safety? Would their time as
soldiers have embittered them, matured them or had no effect ( or any of
the above, depending on the person). Would the political system break down
as it returned to the mass voting rather than the few?
Jane (unable to believe she took that dangling worm :-))
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19165
From: Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 15:01:05 -0500
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I've read quite a bit about the second amendment to the US Constitution, in
particular about the militia being composed of every able bodied male. From
a strict constitutional perspective, I can find no legal way that the US
Govt can prohibit a citizen from owning their own thermonuclear missile,
fighter jet, tank, or any other piece of military hardware that the citizen
could afford.
From a practical standpoint, I don't want to accept the consequences of this
strict constitutional perspective.
If I'm unwilling to accept a strict constitutional perspective for
thermonuclear weapons, how can I require my opponents to accept it for
handguns? Now, I believe there are extra-constitutional reasons to allow
citizens to carry firearms, but I don't feel I can honestly use the 2nd
amendment argument when I'm unwilling to follow that argument to its logical
conclusion.
Frank Fujita
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3b151a71.1@news.sff.net...
> Now, shall we discuss the merits of allowing individuals to own nuclear
> weapons, ...
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19166
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 02:33:31 -0400
Subject: Draft and voting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"ddavitt" <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
>
> I was thinking about that recently...what do you suppose would have
> happened to that society if the Bugs had been on the verge of
> invading/winning? Do you think they would have abandoned their principles
> and instituted a draft?
> If they did, after the war was won ( no point in looking at the
> alternative) what would the effect be of all those extra voters who were
> forced into being responsible for their own safety?<<see my aside below>>
Well, look at all the "extra" voters in the US, "forced" into being
responsible for thier own future by the consitutional right and duty imposed
upon them:
My guess? About half of them would not vote.
Does anyone know an easy reference for voter turnout in US Presidential
elections? Especially early elections from the first elections, when our new
republic was just starting to elect national leaders. I did find a graph
that goes back to 1960, showing a decline from around 63 % to just under 50%
in Presidential elections, and truly dismal turnouts in off-year
Congressional elections.
> Would their time as
> soldiers have embittered them, matured them or had no effect ( or any of
> the above, depending on the person).
Probably a combination of all three. It may depend on how popular the war
was with the public. Compare WW2 and Vietnam, both wars fought by a
combination of draftees and volunteers.
> Would the political system break down
> as it returned to the mass voting rather than the few?
Not any more broken than ours currently is!
>
> Jane (unable to believe she took that dangling worm :-))
>
Teaches you to be the early bird!
<<Aside: How are the citizen-voters of ST responsible for their safety?
Aside from the fact that policeman is a veteran's job. They are no more or
less responsible for their personal safety than any non-citizen, and less
reponsible for the safety of the "body politic" (to quote the textbook
answer) as they are no longer soldiers (or serving in one of the other forms
of federal service.)
end aside>>
<<<begin digression: Can an "aside" be "below"? end digression>>>
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19167
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 02:37:45 -0400
Subject: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu> wrote in message
news:3b15518d.0@news.sff.net...
> I've read quite a bit about the second amendment to the US Constitution,
in
> particular about the militia being composed of every able bodied male.
From
> a strict constitutional perspective, I can find no legal way that the US
> Govt can prohibit a citizen from owning their own thermonuclear missile,
> fighter jet, tank, or any other piece of military hardware that the
citizen
> could afford.
I would tend to agree in principal.
>
> From a practical standpoint, I don't want to accept the consequences of
this
> strict constitutional perspective.
>
> If I'm unwilling to accept a strict constitutional perspective for
> thermonuclear weapons, how can I require my opponents to accept it for
> handguns? Now, I believe there are extra-constitutional reasons to allow
> citizens to carry firearms, but I don't feel I can honestly use the 2nd
> amendment argument when I'm unwilling to follow that argument to its
logical
> conclusion.
>
Again, I would tend to agree in principal. Does this make me a "moderate"?
There was a way that I was going to tie these two threads together, but I
thing I lost the connection sometime around 2:30AM. Maybe tomorrow.
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19168
From: LORRITA MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:13:20 -0700
Subject: ST and the Draft (was "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget)
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"ddavitt" <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:3B15482E.D32C4BC6@netcom.ca...
> Filksinger wrote:
>><snip> or revive the
> > thread on the nature of the required national service in ST?;)
> >
> > Filksinger
>
> I was thinking about that recently...what do you suppose would have
> happened to that society if the Bugs had been on the verge of
> invading/winning? Do you think they would have abandoned their principles
> and instituted a draft?
I wonder if they would have needed to. When the wolf chomps down on a
favorite body part and a weapon is at hand, even the most dedicated member
of PETA will shoot. Remember Johnny's father?
The bugs were too "other" to inspire mass quislings. Memory is foggy about
what happened to indigineous life on the few planets the Bugs did conquer;
but it seems that they wiped out every sentient that wasn't Bug. Great
incentive to volunteer for defence of the planet.
> If they did, after the war was won ( no point in looking at the
> alternative) what would the effect be of all those extra voters who were
> forced into being responsible for their own safety? Would their time as
> soldiers have embittered them, matured them or had no effect ( or any of
> the above, depending on the person). Would the political system break down
> as it returned to the mass voting rather than the few?
>
IF we use WWII as an example, those soldiers in the Allied Forces whether
drafted or volunteer returned to their nations proud of their service. They
became the backbone of the new economy and took real interest in their
countries. There were some who were embittered and disillusioned, but
mostly whether regular or conscript these veterans and their civil service
counterparts matured into responsible citizens.
The problems came later when their children inherited the rights without
having to fight for them. Now that their grandchildren and
great-grandchildren have been handed the franchise as a birthright they away
trade for less than Esau's pottage. Even in countries where voting is
mandatory (you are fined if you don't vote) turn out at the polls is down.
The few who are allowed to serve here in the USA are overpowered by the
majority who can't or won't serve. The informed mature voter gets
discouraged. The majority seems to be swayed by "bread and circuses,"
scandals, fancy rhetoric, and "junk science."
> Jane (unable to believe she took that dangling worm :-))
>
>
I took it with (after?) you.
I'll think of more after I refer to ST and get some sleep. (new medication
has weird side effects for the first couple weeks. If it works it will be
worth the "FUN.")
--
Later,
`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19169
From: tom@goodsol.com (Thomas Warfield)
Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:21:54 GMT
Subject: Re: How are we all doing?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>So consider this thread a chance to say "this is why I'm not posting
>these days"--I'd especially be thrilled if longtime no-posts like
>bytor and Tomstaafl checked in.
Hi JT,
Well, since you asked...
It's been incredibly busy around here. The company just keeps getting
more and more successful, which uses up more time. The HF just
doesn't have the volume of posts that it did in the old days, when you
could log in once a day (or more) and get many posts. So you can't
check it every day, and anything that doesn't get done a regular
schedule (daily, weekly, etc) tends not to get done at all.
I'm also no longer interested in the same things I was back in P*
days. I can't stand to discuss politics anymore because the d@mn
liberals infuriate me so much, and I don't watch the news anymore
because of the liberal bias. (Our cable company just got the Fox News
channel a few weeks ago and that has been great, but I just don't have
the time to watch TV much).
What I'm interested in mostly these days is marketing, specifically
internet marketing. I'm trying to learn what makes people buy things
on the internet and how I can get them to buy more. For the past
couple of years I've been reading lots of marketing books like Seth
Godin's "Permission Marketing" to try and improve my conversion rate,
which is the percentage of people who buy out of the total number of
downloads. In shareware generally and in shareware games in
particular, the usual conversion rate is less than 1 percent, which
means that less than 1 percent of the people who download actually buy
the program. I've got Pretty Good Solitaire's conversion rate up to
3%, but it should be higher than that. To get it higher, I've been
working on learning to write better, that is, learning how to do
advertising copywriting. In internet marketing, the words are the
most important thing in selling. A couple of years ago everybody was
saying that the internet changed all the rules, but the truth is that
the rules are still the same. Internet marketing is actually just a
new form of direct marketing (ie. junk mail). The main difference is
that you can assume that a site visitor has some sort of interest in
the subject, that is, if someone comes to my site they must have at
least some interest in solitaire or they wouldn't be there. So my
current objective is to use tested direct marketing techniques to
improve my internet conversion rate.
Beyond this, we have our cats (http://www.goodsol.com/cats). I still
read some sf, but there really hasn't been anything written recently
worth reading. The sf section in bookstores has become a vast
wasteland of fantasy series, there's hardly any real sf anymore. So
I've turned to mysteries in my reading, as there are a lot of classics
there I haven't read yet. I'm working my way through all of Rex
Stout's Nero Wolfe books at the moment.
A few months ago I took a business trip to Seattle and met bytor for
first time. It was weird meeting someone for the first time in person
who I've known online for nearly 10 years.
Tomstaafl
tom@goodsol.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19170
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 15:53:02 -0700
Subject: Web site update
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
sff.people.robert-a-heinlein
Just a note: the Heinlein web site has been given a very, very long
overdue update and overhaul.
(Invisibly, I've also updated it to a format that will be easier to
update and maintain. The overstretched style I used before was very
difficult to tinker with. Technically, I'm now using HTML 4.01
transitional, with a style sheet, instead of HTML 3.2.)
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19171
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2001 00:03:26 GMT
Subject: Re: How are we all doing?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Fri, 01 Jun 2001 19:21:54 GMT, tom@goodsol.com (Thomas Warfield)
wrote:
>So you can't
>check it every day, and anything that doesn't get done a regular
>schedule (daily, weekly, etc) tends not to get done at all.
? I still check every day, I just don't write every day.
>I'm also no longer interested in the same things I was back in P*
>days. I can't stand to discuss politics anymore because the d@mn
>liberals infuriate me so much, and I don't watch the news anymore
>because of the liberal bias. (Our cable company just got the Fox News
>channel a few weeks ago and that has been great, but I just don't have
>the time to watch TV much).
But it would be so nice to have a 'conservative' around, instead of
all of these libertarians agreeing with each other. ;)
>What I'm interested in mostly these days is marketing, specifically
>internet marketing.
I noticed your website has some pretty well-thought-out hooks into it.
Anne must be happy she's not shipping out registered copies any more
(it's all instant download now, isn't it? I have to admit I didn't
read everything since I've never been a fan of solitare games. I
don't like card games in general.)
>Beyond this, we have our cats (http://www.goodsol.com/cats). I still
>read some sf, but there really hasn't been anything written recently
>worth reading.
I hope you noticed the latest Feintuch book, though!
> I'm working my way through all of Rex
>Stout's Nero Wolfe books at the moment.
Hope you watch the newly-produced episodes on A&E...Christine gets a
kick out of them.
>A few months ago I took a business trip to Seattle and met bytor for
>first time. It was weird meeting someone for the first time in person
>who I've known online for nearly 10 years.
>
Well, it's weird meeting bytor anytime. <G,D,&R!>
Since you posted, I'll tell you that I noticed on your author page
your links to my personal web site, the TGC page, and Deb Houdek's
page are waaay out-of-date.
me: http://hammer.prohosting.com/~tilden/
TGC: http://hammer.prohosting.com/~tilden/TGC/ (Not that it's doing
anything at the moment.)
Deb: http://www.dahoudek.com/
I'm glad you posted.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19172
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2001 20:32:35 -0400
Subject: Re: Web site update
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
sff.people.robert-a-heinlein
James Gifford wrote:
> Just a note: the Heinlein web site has been given a very, very long
> overdue update and overhaul.
>
>
I like it Jim and it was fun to read the new bits after the site had
remained pretty much the same for so long.
I did spot a couple of typos; do you want to know about them by email or
are you now cursing me as a nitpicker with too much time on my hands? If
the latter, take comfort in the fact that I wouldn't know where to start
in making a page....those who can, do and those who can't....you know how
it ends!
Jane
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19173
From: Max <spamdelete@tainted.demon.co.uk>
Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2001 09:55:58 +0100
Subject: Re: How are we all doing?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote at least some of this:
>In article <3b07055d.100905143@news.sff.net>, JT writes...
>...
>> So consider this thread a chance to say "this is why I'm not posting
>> these days"
>
>Apathy punctuated only by bouts of depression.
A completely crap time at work, coupled with a management attitude to
problems that appears to be "shut up and get on with it" - I think it's
time to look for a new job.
>
>But have a nice day. ;-)
>
Seconded.
--
Max
"Poets have been mysteriously silent on
the subject of cheese" - G K Chesterton
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19174
From: Gordon Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:23:58 -0400
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Frank Fujita <ffujita@iusb.edu> wrote in message
news:3b15518d.0@news.sff.net...
> I've read quite a bit about the second amendment to the US Constitution,
in
> particular about the militia being composed of every able bodied male.
From
> a strict constitutional perspective, I can find no legal way that the US
> Govt can prohibit a citizen from owning their own thermonuclear missile,
> fighter jet, tank, or any other piece of military hardware that the
citizen
> could afford.
>
> From a practical standpoint, I don't want to accept the consequences of
this
> strict constitutional perspective.
From a /practical/ standpoint, I'm not particularly worried that even the
very wealthy will spend any large fraction of their wealth on complex
weapons systems.
However, from a theoretical standpoint, do you accept that the justification
for the second amendment is that it acts to restrict the power of
government? If so, then as the force that government can bring to bear
increases, so should that available to citizens.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19175
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 09:30:37 -0700
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Gordon Sollars wrote:
> From a /practical/ standpoint, I'm not particularly worried that even the
> very wealthy will spend any large fraction of their wealth on complex
> weapons systems.
What about the "3D" systems such as those outlined in _Friday_, or in
Brian Daley's _Jinx on a Terran Inheritance_? (Heinlein's are more
believable, but Daley's are interesting.)
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19176
From: Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 12:19:43 -0500
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I do accept that the main purpose of the second amendment is to be a check
of last resort on the tyranny of government. So, the US Govt has nuclear
missiles -- I do not conceive of any circumstances where the US Govt uses
these on US soil to attack US citizens as a method of maintaining tyranny.
As soon as we get down to napalm bombs, then I can see highly unlikely
possibilities for their misuse by the Govt. I'm not sufficiently
knowledgeable in revolution, but I think that as soon as a weapon inevitably
produces collateral damage (killing of innocents) then its restriction by
the Govt is reasonable (this particular thought is not hardened in stone,
and I'm willing to listen to the kinds of well thought out arguments I've
enjoyed on this list). So that would mean absolutely no restrictions on
non-lethal weapons, no magazine restrictions, but I'd probably want to
maintain restrictions on fully automatic weapons, but maybe not on the
3-round per trigger pull weapons..
"Gordon Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:3b1bb67c.0@news.sff.net...
> However, from a theoretical standpoint, do you accept that the
justification
> for the second amendment is that it acts to restrict the power of
> government? If so, then as the force that government can bring to bear
> increases, so should that available to citizens.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19177
From: James Hunt" <jhunt@txcyber.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 14:12:44 -0500
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3B1BB7AD.242B48E7@rcsis.com...
> Gordon Sollars wrote:
>
> What about the "3D" systems such as those outlined in _Friday
What were the "3D" systems? I don't remember them.
GemStone
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19178
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:03:23 -0700
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3b15e5e1.0@news.sff.net...
>
> "Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu> wrote in message
> news:3b15518d.0@news.sff.net...
> > I've read quite a bit about the second amendment to the US Constitution,
> in
> > particular about the militia being composed of every able bodied male.
> From
> > a strict constitutional perspective, I can find no legal way that the US
> > Govt can prohibit a citizen from owning their own thermonuclear missile,
> > fighter jet, tank, or any other piece of military hardware that the
> citizen
> > could afford.
>
> I would tend to agree in principal.
I almost do. I'll bet that I am a stronger supporter of RKBA (i.e. "Right to
Keep and Bear Arms) than either of you, but I disagree that it allows the
ownership of nuclear weapons, because your ownership of nuclear weapons
takes away _my_ rights.
The thermonuclear missile, is, by its nature, pointed at people. Even if it
is placed so it cannot be launched, detonation of the warhead will
inevitibly kill people. This places it in the same category, to me, as a gun
pointed at somebody. Specifically, it is a threat of violence, and can be
responded to in kind.
The same goes for any other weapon. You want napalm? Fine, so long as,
should it go off, it will kill no one. You want a tank? Fine, until the
barrel is pointed so that it could kill people. The moment you point the
weapon at me, that's it.
Another man's right to keep and bear arms does not, at any time, take away
my right to kill him if he points it at me.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19179
From: Charles Graft <Lurker2143@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 18:01:37 -0500
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Jane--
Since the argument normally goes "since you concede it is not
desirable for my neighbor to own atomic weapons, regulating any kind of
weapon is nothing but a political item with no constitutional
protection". I reject this argument. The framers did not regulate or
restrict the citizens from owning the terror weapons of their day, the
armed ship. It fact, the citizen's power to own the most massive weapon
of its day is specifically recognized in giving the federal government
the power to issue letters of marque and reprisal.
Nor do I accept the premise that my neighbor building an atomic
weapon is a danger to me. My neighbors are doing well to scrape
together the money for their house payments; the houses in my
neighborhood average less than six figures and I have not heard of any
atomic weapon that comes in for less than 100 times that. A neighbor
out to kill me can do a much more efficient job with either a hunting
gun or a car bomb. Or a kitchen knife or a gallon of gasoline.
Telling him he can't build an atomic bomb is purely a straw man
argument.
The government having the power to regulate what weapons a citizen
can own is too much power for a government to have.
And if the anti-'s succeed in ending private ownership of firearms,
do you think that Rosie O'Donnel or Hillary Clinton will no longer have
armed bodyguards? Or the police? But the next thing you know, the nuts
will pushing for passing laws prohibiting one from carrying a knife in
his car. (It has happened overseas -- a man was jailed for having a
"box knife" (for opening boxes) in his car that he used in his job.)
And if you go back to the middle ages, the royalty did want or allow
the peasantry to carry or own a sword. Royalty feels safer that way.
As do dictators and others of that ilk.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19180
Article no longer available
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19181
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 16:09:41 -0700
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu> wrote in message
news:3b1bc335.0@news.sff.net...
> I do accept that the main purpose of the second amendment is to be a check
> of last resort on the tyranny of government. So, the US Govt has nuclear
> missiles -- I do not conceive of any circumstances where the US Govt uses
> these on US soil to attack US citizens as a method of maintaining tyranny.
It would be a pretty crummy method, true. But, if a full scale rebellion was
controlled from a small town in Nevada, I could imagine it. Even more so, if
we had a world government.
> As soon as we get down to napalm bombs, then I can see highly unlikely
> possibilities for their misuse by the Govt. I'm not sufficiently
> knowledgeable in revolution, but I think that as soon as a weapon
inevitably
> produces collateral damage (killing of innocents) then its restriction by
> the Govt is reasonable (this particular thought is not hardened in stone,
> and I'm willing to listen to the kinds of well thought out arguments I've
> enjoyed on this list). So that would mean absolutely no restrictions on
> non-lethal weapons, no magazine restrictions, but I'd probably want to
> maintain restrictions on fully automatic weapons, but maybe not on the
> 3-round per trigger pull weapons..
Well, even fully automatic weapons don't guarantee collateral damage. It
would depend upon where you were, and where your enemies were. At Waco, for
example, nobody got shot who _wasn't_ part of the assault force (whether or
not they were part of the assault itself), because the only people in range
were the attackers (and those who traveled with them).
Since the military, in the scenario under discussion, would be used to
enforce governmental edicts, it would seem to call for military hardware on
the part of the resistance.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19182
From: Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2001 18:24:23 -0500
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Did middle age royalty want and/or allow the peasantry to carry crossbows?
That is, the wealthy could afford suits of armor, but crossbows could defeat
the armor. Was crossbow ownership unregulated? Of course, by the time that
firearms became popular, armor didn't afford any protection at all.
> And if you go back to the middle ages, the royalty did want or allow
> the peasantry to carry or own a sword. Royalty feels safer that way.
> As do dictators and others of that ilk.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19183
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 19:27:04 -0400
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft wrote:
> Jane--
>
> Since the argument normally goes "since you concede it is not
> desirable for my neighbor to own atomic weapons, regulating any kind of
> weapon is nothing but a political item with no constitutional
> protection". I reject this argument. snip
I can't see what this has to do with what I said at all. Are you mixing me
up with another poster? I don't do gun threads; my post was about what would
happen if the ST world had to institute a draft in the face of imminent
invasion by the Bugs.
Jane
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19184
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2001 21:18:43 -0400
Subject: Re: How are we all doing?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>>In article <3b07055d.100905143@news.sff.net>, JT writes...
>>...
>>> So consider this thread a chance to say "this is why I'm not posting
>>> these days"
JT: On a good day my 'Reading all of HF to Posting on HF' ratio is
at least 100:1 <g>. I usually nod my head a lot and agree with most
of the Libertarian sentiment found here. It was good to hear from
Tomstaffl after such a long dry spell (bytor is still AWOL). . .
.. .
I miss the good old days when I thought bytor and Big Charlie would
come to cyber-blows <g>; only to be assured via private E-Mail from
both that this was a harmless debate and quite normal for them.
I haven't seen anyone post any tasty recipes in a dog's age.
I have a new slant on a old book debate area: what would it be like
to have to live in one of Heinlein's universes, say from one of his
earlier stories? "Gulf" might not be too strange, but "Between
Planets" could be quite unpleasant, for example. (jest a random
thought)
Ed J
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19185
From: Eli Hestermann <Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu>
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 07:49:51 -0400
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
James Hunt wrote:
> James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
> news:3B1BB7AD.242B48E7@rcsis.com...
> > Gordon Sollars wrote:
> >
> > What about the "3D" systems such as those outlined in _Friday
>
> What were the "3D" systems? I don't remember them.
>
> GemStone
I think he's referring to the home protection systems that incorporated
lethal measures. IIRC, the three layers were essentially 1. Warn 'em
you have the system, 2. Use non-lethal measures to show that 1 was not a
bluff, 3. Kill those foolish enough to ignore 1 and 2.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa." -Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19186
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2001 07:03:31 -0700
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Eli Hestermann wrote:
>>> What about the "3D" systems such as those outlined in _Friday
>> What were the "3D" systems? I don't remember them.
> I think he's referring to the home protection systems that incorporated
> lethal measures. IIRC, the three layers were essentially 1. Warn 'em
> you have the system, 2. Use non-lethal measures to show that 1 was not a
> bluff, 3. Kill those foolish enough to ignore 1 and 2.
Right. "Deter, Detect, Defend." I don't think Heinlein used the
terminology, but it's a common name for three-level systems with active
automatic defenses.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19187
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 11:10:16 -0400
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <3B1BB7AD.242B48E7@rcsis.com>, James Gifford writes...
> Gordon Sollars wrote:
> > From a /practical/ standpoint, I'm not particularly worried that even the
> > very wealthy will spend any large fraction of their wealth on complex
> > weapons systems.
>
> What about the "3D" systems such as those outlined in _Friday_, or in
> Brian Daley's _Jinx on a Terran Inheritance_? (Heinlein's are more
> believable, but Daley's are interesting.)
Sorry, James, but I'm drawing a blank on these.
--
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19188
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2001 12:43:49 -0700
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu> wrote in message
news:3b1c18a1.0@news.sff.net...
> Did middle age royalty want and/or allow the peasantry to carry crossbows?
> That is, the wealthy could afford suits of armor, but crossbows could
defeat
> the armor. Was crossbow ownership unregulated? Of course, by the time
that
> firearms became popular, armor didn't afford any protection at all.
Crossbows were difficult to make, and were often regulated. Long bows were
not. A friend of mine, a military historian, thinks that made British
nobility less arrogant, and that is why the French nobility lost their
heads.
> > And if you go back to the middle ages, the royalty did want or allow
> > the peasantry to carry or own a sword. Royalty feels safer that way.
> > As do dictators and others of that ilk.
I think this is supposed to read "did _not_ want or allow".
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19189
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 03:40:25 GMT
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I've always thought it would be fun to call some friends up, shoot
some nukes a few hundred miles from Earth, blow them up, and watch.
Would this necessarily hurt anyone? (I'm guessing the fallout would
have some effect, but perhaps there'd be some way to avoid that.)
>The thermonuclear missile, is, by its nature, pointed at people. Even if it
>is placed so it cannot be launched, detonation of the warhead will
>inevitibly kill people. This places it in the same category, to me, as a gun
>pointed at somebody. Specifically, it is a threat of violence, and can be
>responded to in kind.
Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19190
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 03:56:55 GMT
Subject: interesting article..
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
http://www.findarticles.com/m1111/n1782_v297/21281407/p1/article.jhtml
Absolutely fascinating.... I feel very humbled.
Bob
Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19191
From: LORRITA MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 12:17:05 -0700
Subject: Re: interesting article..
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Fascinating but frightening at the same time. I remember when the
"intelligence" agencies came completely unglued when some college student
back when I was your age (or younger) wrote his thesis on how to build *The
BOMB.* Now this.
Clancy's vision of Denver as a glow-in-the-dark slag heap doesn't seem so
far fetched.
--
Later,
`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.
"Bob Lawson" <bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com> wrote in message
news:3b1da9e7.1508554@news.sff.net...
> http://www.findarticles.com/m1111/n1782_v297/21281407/p1/article.jhtml
>
> Absolutely fascinating.... I feel very humbled.
> Bob
>
> Bob
> bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19192
From: Gordon Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 17:11:10 -0400
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3B1CE6B3.D76A2D95@rcsis.com...
> Eli Hestermann wrote:
> >>> What about the "3D" systems such as those outlined in _Friday
> >> What were the "3D" systems? I don't remember them.
>
> > I think he's referring to the home protection systems that incorporated
> > lethal measures. IIRC, the three layers were essentially 1. Warn 'em
> > you have the system, 2. Use non-lethal measures to show that 1 was not a
> > bluff, 3. Kill those foolish enough to ignore 1 and 2.
>
> Right. "Deter, Detect, Defend." I don't think Heinlein used the
> terminology, but it's a common name for three-level systems with active
> automatic defenses.
Oh, OK. No, I'm not worried that even the very wealthy will spend any large
fraction of their wealth on such weapons. In the first place, I don't plan
to invade the homes of the very wealthy, so even if they do, I don't see it
as a problem. Second, I not worried that people in general will spend more
on defending their homes than the homes are worth. ;-)
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19193
From: John Teehan <tumble@ids.net>
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 17:28:21 -0400
Subject: Re: interesting article..
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Yet at the same time, wouldn't a more sanitized version of this guy
shown up in one of Heinlein's juveniles? Backyard rockets. Backyard
spacesuits. Backyard nuclear reactors?
--John
LORRITA MORGAN wrote:
>
> Fascinating but frightening at the same time. I remember when the
> "intelligence" agencies came completely unglued when some college student
> back when I was your age (or younger) wrote his thesis on how to build *The
> BOMB.* Now this.
>
> Clancy's vision of Denver as a glow-in-the-dark slag heap doesn't seem so
> far fetched.
>
> --
> Later,
>
> `rita
> Almost live from Finley, WA.
> "Bob Lawson" <bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com> wrote in message
> news:3b1da9e7.1508554@news.sff.net...
> > http://www.findarticles.com/m1111/n1782_v297/21281407/p1/article.jhtml
> >
> > Absolutely fascinating.... I feel very humbled.
> > Bob
> >
> > Bob
> > bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19194
From: Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 14:35:05 -0700
Subject: Re: interesting article..
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"John Teehan" <tumble@ids.net> wrote in message
news:3B1EA075.9055844A@ids.net...
> Yet at the same time, wouldn't a more sanitized version of this guy
> shown up in one of Heinlein's juveniles? Backyard rockets. Backyard
> spacesuits. Backyard nuclear reactors?
>
> --John
Maybe...
I'd like to think RAH would have given him better adult supervision. Is
that what you mean by "sanitized?"
--
Later,
`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.
>
> LORRITA MORGAN wrote:
> >
> > Fascinating but frightening at the same time. I remember when the
> > "intelligence" agencies came completely unglued when some college
student
> > back when I was your age (or younger) wrote his thesis on how to build
*The
> > BOMB.* Now this.
> >
> > Clancy's vision of Denver as a glow-in-the-dark slag heap doesn't seem
so
> > far fetched.
> >
> > --
> > Later,
> >
> > `rita
> > Almost live from Finley, WA.
> > "Bob Lawson" <bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com> wrote in message
> > news:3b1da9e7.1508554@news.sff.net...
> > > http://www.findarticles.com/m1111/n1782_v297/21281407/p1/article.jhtml
> > >
> > > Absolutely fascinating.... I feel very humbled.
> > > Bob
> > >
> > > Bob
> > > bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19195
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 22:00:59 GMT
Subject: Re: interesting article..
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Wed, 06 Jun 2001 03:56:55 GMT, bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob
Lawson) wrote:
>http://www.findarticles.com/m1111/n1782_v297/21281407/p1/article.jhtml
>
>Absolutely fascinating.... I feel very humbled.
>Bob
>
It was interesting...next time give a sentence telling us what the
article was about. (This one is about a high-schooler who attempted
to build his own nuclear reactor).
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19196
From: Charles Graft <Lurker2143@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 18:09:40 -0500
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger--
"Did "NOT" want is correct. I've got to quit doing this just
before going to bed.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19197
From: Charles Graft <Lurker2143@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 18:09:46 -0500
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Frank--
Crossbows were prohibited (by the Church) for many many years --
they were considered a ":terror weapon". Later the ban was eased to
allow them to be used against infidels and later the ban rescinded. I
am not sure of the timing on the bans vs. the introduction of firearms.
But even long bows could not be carried by peasants in many
jurisdictions.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19198
From: Charles Graft <Lurker2143@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 18:12:34 -0500
Subject: Re: "Gee Whiz"--a neat gadget
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Jane--
It is quite possible I hooked it to the wrong thread. I apologize.
As I said in another post, I've got to quite doing this just before
going to bed.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19199
From: Charles Graft <Lurker2143@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 18:22:20 -0500
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
>
> I almost do. I'll bet that I am a stronger supporter of RKBA (i.e. "Right to
> Keep and Bear Arms) than either of you, but I disagree that it allows the
> ownership of nuclear weapons, because your ownership of nuclear weapons
> takes away _my_ rights.
>
> The thermonuclear missile, is, by its nature, pointed at people. Even if it
> is placed so it cannot be launched, detonation of the warhead will
> inevitibly kill people. This places it in the same category, to me, as a gun
> pointed at somebody. Specifically, it is a threat of violence, and can be
> responded to in kind.
>
> The same goes for any other weapon. You want napalm? Fine, so long as,
> should it go off, it will kill no one. You want a tank? Fine, until the
> barrel is pointed so that it could kill people. The moment you point the
> weapon at me, that's it.
> is used.. And a man-of-war exploding in a harbor could take out that harbor
> for years.
My ownership of a nuclear weapon does not infringe your rights any more
than my ownership of a man-of-war at the time of the constitution did. Neither
is worth beans unless its use is threatened or it is used.. And a man-of-war
exploding in a harbor could take out that harbor for years.
>
> Another man's right to keep and bear arms does not, at any time, take away
> my right to kill him if he points it at me.
I totally agree. But my owning a weapon does not necessarily mean it is
pointed at you any more than my having a bag of fertilizer in my garage means I
am threatening you.
>
> Filksinger
But my point is that when I am told that I can't own a particular weapon,
the principle is then established that you (or the government) can tell me what
weapons I can own. This is what I don't accept. The anti-'s will not quit
until gun ownership is outlawed and then they will go on to knives. Their
respect for the constitution? Ha! An antique document no longer relevant.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm.-- Vince
Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19200
From: Charles Graft <Lurker2143@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2001 18:29:57 -0500
Subject: Re: interesting article..
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
LORRITA MORGAN wrote:
>
> Clancy's vision of Denver as a glow-in-the-dark slag heap doesn't seem so
> far fetched.
Lorrita --
It is depressingly near fetched. What is even more depressing to me is
that the US (and not alone in the world) has such porous borders that shipping
one in would be much cheaper and simpler than building a missile.
Hmmm. A random thought. One of the reasons our borders are so porous is
that drug money keeps them that way. So if you support drug prohibition, you
are supporting terrorists shipping nuclear weapons into our country?
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm.-- Vince
Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19201
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 05:26:07 GMT
Subject: Re: interesting article..
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
sanitized, sterilized, what's the difference? <g>
>I'd like to think RAH would have given him better adult supervision. Is
>that what you mean by "sanitized?"
Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19202
From: Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2001 23:25:31 -0700
Subject: Re: interesting article..
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Maybe adult collaboration would have been a better term. Somebody with a
bit more common sense that would have figured out a better way to get rid of
the evidence. Someone who would pop up (or off) with an idea or wise crack
when things got tense.
I think that with a mature advisor/partner the kid wouldn't have gotten
caught until he was ready to show the scouts his project. That's the scary
part.
The kid found holes in NRC, DOE, and who knows what other agencies big
enough to sail the aircraft carrier group he serves with through. Not all
of those holes can be plugged. Make a nice story all you writer types.
--
Later,
`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.
"Bob Lawson" <bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com> wrote in message
news:3b1f1052.3925087@news.sff.net...
> sanitized, sterilized, what's the difference? <g>
>
> >I'd like to think RAH would have given him better adult supervision. Is
> >that what you mean by "sanitized?"
>
> Bob
> bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19203
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:52:03 -0400
Subject: Re: interesting article..
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <3B1EBCF5.8DEEAC53@aol.com>, Charles Graft writes...
....
> Hmmm. A random thought. One of the reasons our borders are so porous is
> that drug money keeps them that way. So if you support drug prohibition, you
> are supporting terrorists shipping nuclear weapons into our country?
Well, I am opposed to drug prohibition, but I don't follow this, B.C.
The borders are in part "porous" - in the sense that they are actually
being crossed - because drug money is a motivator to cross (and in part
because so is getting a better job). But I don't see that they would be
any less "porous" - in the sense of the ease with which they /could/ be
crossed - if these motivators were not present. If someone wanted to
move a nuke into the U.S., he could either try to hide it in the enormous
amount of legal traffic across the border or try to take advantage of the
fact the the borders are too long and remote to police in detail.
--
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19204
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 10:55:24 -0400
Subject: Re: interesting article..
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <3b1ea221.0@news.sff.net>, Lorrita Morgan writes...
....
> I'd like to think RAH would have given him better adult supervision. Is
> that what you mean by "sanitized?"
The guys in /Rocket Ship Galileo/ took much more professional safety
precautions relative to what they were doing than this guy did. I don't
remember if it is explained that they did this because of adult
supervision, or if it was their own idea.
--
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19205
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 17:52:20 -0700
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Bob Lawson" <bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com> wrote in message
news:3b1da531.302374@news.sff.net...
> I've always thought it would be fun to call some friends up, shoot
> some nukes a few hundred miles from Earth, blow them up, and watch.
> Would this necessarily hurt anyone? (I'm guessing the fallout would
> have some effect, but perhaps there'd be some way to avoid that.)
If detonated near the Earth, you'd get EMP pulses that can take out power
lines at distances of hundreds of miles. Additionally, anybody watching the
blasts would run the risk of damaging their eyes, again unless the bombs
were detonated at a great distance.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19206
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 18:22:42 -0700
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Charles Graft" <Lurker2143@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3B1EBB2C.BAB6ABF8@aol.com...
<snip>
>
> My ownership of a nuclear weapon does not infringe your rights any
more
> than my ownership of a man-of-war at the time of the constitution did.
Neither
> is worth beans unless its use is threatened or it is used.. And a
man-of-war
> exploding in a harbor could take out that harbor for years.
That is not entirely relevant, since that is not the proper usage of the
ship as a weapon. Detonating a bomb _is_ the proper usage of the bomb as a
weapon, and as soon as you take _any_ weapon and place it into a position
where its proper usage can harm me, I have a right to act. If you point the
weapons on that ship at me, so that their proper usage can harm me, I am
justified in taking action. I will not make special exceptions for bombs.
You want them, keep them somewhere safe.
<snip>
> I totally agree. But my owning a weapon does not necessarily mean it
is
> pointed at you any more than my having a bag of fertilizer in my garage
means I
> am threatening you.
No. I am not threatened by your ownership of the fertilizer, and don't
object. I don't even object to your owning plutonium, so long as you don't
pollute my property with it. I don't even object to your ownership of a
nuclear weapon, so long as I (or other innocent people who are not on your
property and object) am/are not directly threatened by it.
There are two ways you can threaten a man with a weapon, such that he can
appropriately respond with violence. You can make a threatening statement
about your using the weapon, whether verbally, written, or via some other
communications medium. Alternately, you can bring the weapon out of its safe
state, such as a holster or scabbard, and bring it to a state of readiness
such that proper usage of the weapon can harm the person you are
threatening.
The moment the weapon is brought out of that safe state, and I am within its
range, I am justified in responding with violence. You draw your gun, I can
kill you. You draw your sword, I can kill you. You bring _any_ weapon into a
position where it threatens my life, and I can kill you. With bombs, that is
done by bringing them into a position such that detonating them will harm me
or my property.
I will not grant a special exemption to nuclear weapons. Keep them somewhere
safe, where I know I and my property are not threatened by the weapon, and
you can keep it.
> But my point is that when I am told that I can't own a particular
weapon,
> the principle is then established that you (or the government) can tell me
what
> weapons I can own. This is what I don't accept. The anti-'s will not
quit
> until gun ownership is outlawed and then they will go on to knives.
Their
> respect for the constitution? Ha! An antique document no longer
relevant.
1. If we are talking about what is legal _under the Constitution_, then _and
only then_ is the Constitution is relevant. Since I'm not and never was, the
Constitution is _not_ relevant, any more than what the Constitution says
about electing a President is relevant to a discussions of what methods of
casting votes would be best.
2. The Constitution does not, and never did, grant special rights to the
holders of explosives that are not possessed by other weapon owners. If you
want to keep a weapon, you cannot threaten people with it and expect to keep
it. If you place any weapon such that its proper use can harm me, I can take
action. Your right to keep and bear a revolver does not allow you to place
it where its proper usage can kill me, so neither does it allow the same
with a bomb.
You want to own a nuclear weapon, fine. Just so long as you don't place it
where it can kill me, you can have it. But I won't grant you any right not
possessed by people who own other weapons.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19207
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 09:12:23 -0700
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
> No. I am not threatened by your ownership of the fertilizer, and don't
> object. I don't even object to your owning plutonium, so long as you don't
> pollute my property with it. I don't even object to your ownership of a
> nuclear weapon, so long as I (or other innocent people who are not on your
> property and object) am/are not directly threatened by it.
So as long as its those barbarians over there, you don't care what they
do.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19208
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 09:23:37 -0700
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
James Gifford wrote:
> Filksinger wrote:
> > No. I am not threatened by your ownership of the fertilizer, and don't
> > object. I don't even object to your owning plutonium, so long as you don't
> > pollute my property with it. I don't even object to your ownership of a
> > nuclear weapon, so long as I (or other innocent people who are not on your
> > property and object) am/are not directly threatened by it.
>
> So as long as its those barbarians over there, you don't care what they
> do.
"It's," you idiot.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19209
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 13:51:48 -0700
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3B20FC09.3FBDAAFC@rcsis.com...
> James Gifford wrote:
>
<snip>
> > So as long as its those barbarians over there, you don't care what they
> > do.
>
> "It's," you idiot.
Not really. If you wanted to nuke yourself, and you don't take anyone with
you who doesn't volunteer to go, that's your business.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19210
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 15:04:13 -0700
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
> "James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote:
>> So as long as it's those barbarians over there, you don't care what they
>> do.
> Not really. If you wanted to nuke yourself, and you don't take anyone with
> you who doesn't volunteer to go, that's your business.
The flaw with that (which is in turn one of the basic flaws of
Libertarianism, IMHO) is that very few actions of significance *do not*
have effects on people far outside the immediate area. The notion of
Crusoe-like independence (of individuals, collectives, towns, cities and
nations) is nonsense.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19211
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:27:08 -0700
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3B214BDD.1CBEE370@rcsis.com...
> Filksinger wrote:
>
> > "James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote:
> >> So as long as it's those barbarians over there, you don't care what
they
> >> do.
>
> > Not really. If you wanted to nuke yourself, and you don't take anyone
with
> > you who doesn't volunteer to go, that's your business.
>
> The flaw with that (which is in turn one of the basic flaws of
> Libertarianism, IMHO) is that very few actions of significance *do not*
> have effects on people far outside the immediate area. The notion of
> Crusoe-like independence (of individuals, collectives, towns, cities and
> nations) is nonsense.
True, in most cases, though obviously Crusoe had it before he met Friday.
However, a "Crusoe-like independence" isn't, in most cases, necessary for
libertarianism (small-l). The illusion that it is is, at least partially,
caused by people who are into "libertarianism" so that they can call
themselves free to do things which they want to deny other people have any
business in, but which in fact affect those people directly. Polluting the
atmosphere or waterways, for example.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19212
From: Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 22:38:26 -0700
Subject: Aslan v. Potter
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Inspired by Harry Potter mania, the estate of C.S. Lewis plans to release
new Narnia novels devoid of Christian symbolism. Something tells me Lewis
never envisioned Aslan as "The Lion King." (from Backwire.com's Art &
Literature Backwire 6/6/2001)
http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0%2C6109%2C501057%2C00.html
--
Later,
`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19213
From: David Wright" <dwrighsr@alltel.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 09:04:14 -0400
Subject: Log for 6/07/01 meeting of Heinlein Readers Group now available
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
The log for the Thursday 6/07/01 meeting of the Heinlein Readers Group is
now available at:
http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/TWOTF_AIM_06-07-2001.html
The subject was the "Future World of 2001", starting with the world Dan
Davis awoke into in 'Door Into Summer'.
There will be another discussion on the same topic, this afternoon
(Saturday 6/09/01) at 5:00 P.M. EDT
Please join us.
--
Related Heinlein Web Pages
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/
http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein.html
http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html
David Wright
Programmer/Analyst
N.W. District Health Office
Georgia State Dept.Of Public Health
100 W. Walnut Avenue, Suite 92
Dalton, GA 30720
Phone: 706-272-2342
Fax: 706-272-2221
E-Mail: dwrighsr@alltel.net
dewright@gdph.state.ga.us
Web Page: http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19214
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 10:25:54 -0700
Subject: Re: Aslan v. Potter
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Lorrita Morgan wrote:
> Inspired by Harry Potter mania, the estate of C.S. Lewis plans to release
> new Narnia novels devoid of Christian symbolism.
Even as unfond as I am of Christian symbolism woven into inappropriate
places (i.e., most of them), this "slipping Christianity past watchful
dragons" is the entire purpose of the Narnia books. Feh. Next they'll be
publishing _Stranger_ with all the sex and religion left out.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19215
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 20:09:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Aslan v. Potter
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Lorrita Morgan wrote:
> Inspired by Harry Potter mania, the estate of C.S. Lewis plans to release
> new Narnia novels devoid of Christian symbolism. Something tells me Lewis
> never envisioned Aslan as "The Lion King." (from Backwire.com's Art &
> Literature Backwire 6/6/2001)
> http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0%2C6109%2C501057%2C00.html
>
>
There's been a lot of discussion about this on rasfw. I'm appalled. It's part
of an insidious fashion of going beyond "The End". Perhaps it's an indictment
on modern fiction that so many authors are writing sequels to classics
instead of writing their own books. Off the top of my head I can think of
many; Jane Austen books, The Secret Garden, all the Little House
prequel/sequels.....sometimes they're good in their own right ( Tom Holt's
Lucia books ) but generally they force the story into another dimension and
rarely leave me with a satisfied feeling. It spoils the originals after
you've read the faux sequels and the heroes have become unhappy and twisted.
And they usually do.
Jane
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19216
From: David Wright" <dwrighsr@alltel.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 22:25:36 -0400
Subject: Log for 6/09/01 meeting of Heinlein Readers Group now available
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
The log for the Saturday 6/09/01 meeting of the Heinlein Readers Group is
now available at:
http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/TWOTF_AIM_06-09-2001.html
The subject was the "Future World of 2001", starting with the world Dan
Davis awoke into in 'Door Into Summer'.
Thursday night's discussion can be found at:
http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/TWOTF_AIM_06-07-2001.html
David Wright
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19217
From: Max <max@sff.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 14:37:57 +0100
Subject: Re: Aslan v. Potter
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote at least some of this:
[..]
>. It spoils the originals after
>you've read the faux sequels and the heroes have become unhappy and twisted.
>And they usually do.
It'll be interesting (although outwith the scope of the Narnia
chronicles) to see how they attempt the same with another C S Lewis
book, "That Hideous Strength".
Just my tuppence worth.
--
Max
"In order to keep a true perspective of one's importance,
everyone should have a dog that will worship him and a
cat that will ignore him" - Dereke Bruce, Taipei, Taiwan
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19218
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 13:57:13 -0400
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <3B214BDD.1CBEE370@rcsis.com>, James Gifford writes...
....
> The flaw with that (which is in turn one of the basic flaws of
> Libertarianism, IMHO) is that very few actions of significance *do not*
> have effects on people far outside the immediate area. The notion of
> Crusoe-like independence (of individuals, collectives, towns, cities and
> nations) is nonsense.
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those who say there are two
kinds of people, and ...
Sorry.
As I was saying, "private" and "public" are at the ends of a spectrum.
To say that there are "very few" acts which do not have significant
effects on others is to assert that almost nothing falls on the "private"
end of that spectrum - or to equivocate on what is "significant". My
choice of toothpaste might conceivably have some public effect, but I
think those who claim it does face a high burden of proof - especially if
they wish to assert that the public component of my choice justifies
their making it for me.
Libertarianism need not assume a private sphere that is completely
isolated from the public, but only that the effects of the spillover from
private to public are "small" relative to the benefits of having a
private sphere. Do you refuse to drive a car to the store (private
benefit) because you might kill someone (public harm) on the way?
Any one, libertarian or otherwise, who denies that there are both public
and private effects in our actions is, of course, in error. It is also
an error to overestimate (or underestimate) the size of the public
component. What is interesting to me is that this estimation seems to be
the kind of thing that one can see to be right or wrong, yet (almost) no
one ever changes his position.
--
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19219
From: noone" <no_one@home>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 16:53:01 -0000
Subject: Re: Aslan v. Potter
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3b21b689.0@news.sff.net...
> Inspired by Harry Potter mania, the estate of C.S. Lewis plans to release
> new Narnia novels devoid of Christian symbolism. Something tells me Lewis
> never envisioned Aslan as "The Lion King." (from Backwire.com's Art &
> Literature Backwire 6/6/2001)
fairly disgusting, cutting "christian references" out of c. s. lewis' work
would be cutting the guts out of it. even speaking as a pagan this is
nonsense, what is wrong with a bit of "christian symbolism". this is bean
counter "thinking" at it's worst. as for publishing a follow on or "revised
version" of "stranger in a strange land" without all the sex, bad idea, i'd
not want robert's ghost haunting me.
"gunner"
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19220
From: Catherine Hampton <xzm@hrweb.org>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 21:48:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Aslan v. Potter
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Fri, 8 Jun 2001 22:38:26 -0700, "Lorrita Morgan"
<lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Inspired by Harry Potter mania, the estate of C.S. Lewis plans to release
>new Narnia novels devoid of Christian symbolism. Something tells me Lewis
>never envisioned Aslan as "The Lion King." (from Backwire.com's Art &
>Literature Backwire 6/6/2001)
>http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0%2C6109%2C501057%2C00.html
IMHO that is about as appropriate as Christianizing Heinlein would be.
It violates the whole character of Lewis's work and what he was trying
to do. And because some b*st*rds are too greedy to write their own
books. :(
--
Ariel (aka Catherine Hampton) <ariel@tempest.boxmail.com>
===========================================================
Home Page * <http://www.hrweb.org/ariel/>
Human Rights Web * <http://www.hrweb.org/>
Icon Wall * <http://www.iconwall.org/>
Kovalevo Children's Home * <http://www.kovalevo.org/>
REVEAL * <http://www.reveal.org/>
The Spam Bouncer * <http://www.spambouncer.org/>
(Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header is a
spam trap.)
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19221
From: Charles Graft <Lurker2143@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 07:01:35 -0500
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
> That is not entirely relevant, since that is not the proper usage of the
> ship as a weapon.
That ship can be blown up in that harbor without having been triggered as a
bomb -- as a result of enemy fire, for example. As in USS Arizona.
> Detonating a bomb _is_ the proper usage of the bomb as a
> weapon, and as soon as you take _any_ weapon and place it into a position
> where its proper usage can harm me, I have a right to act. If you point the
> weapons on that ship at me, so that their proper usage can harm me, I am
> justified in taking action. I will not make special exceptions for bombs.
> You want them, keep them somewhere safe.
As a threat is also a proper usage of a bomb.
> <No. I am not threatened by your ownership of the fertilizer, and don't
> object. I don't even object to your owning plutonium, so long as you don't
> pollute my property with it. I don't even object to your ownership of a
> nuclear weapon, so long as I (or other innocent people who are not on your
> property and object) am/are not directly threatened by it.
>
> There are two ways you can threaten a man with a weapon, such that he can
> appropriately respond with violence. You can make a threatening statement
> about your using the weapon, whether verbally, written, or via some other
> communications medium. Alternately, you can bring the weapon out of its safe
> state, such as a holster or scabbard, and bring it to a state of readiness
> such that proper usage of the weapon can harm the person you are
> threatening.
>
> The moment the weapon is brought out of that safe state, and I am within its
> range, I am justified in responding with violence. You draw your gun, I can
> kill you. You draw your sword, I can kill you. You bring _any_ weapon into a
> position where it threatens my life, and I can kill you. With bombs, that is
> done by bringing them into a position such that detonating them will harm me
> or my property.
>
> I will not grant a special exemption to nuclear weapons. Keep them somewhere
> safe, where I know I and my property are not threatened by the weapon, and
> you can keep it.
> ChasGraft wrote:
> > But my point is that when I am told that I can't own a particular
> weapon,
> > the principle is then established that you (or the government) can tell me
> what
> > weapons I can own. This is what I don't accept. The anti-'s will not
> quit
> > until gun ownership is outlawed and then they will go on to knives.
> Their
> > respect for the constitution? Ha! An antique document no longer
> relevant.
>
> 1. If we are talking about what is legal _under the Constitution_, then _and
> only then_ is the Constitution is relevant. Since I'm not and never was, the
> Constitution is _not_ relevant, any more than what the Constitution says
> about electing a President is relevant to a discussions of what methods of
> casting votes would be best.
>
> 2. The Constitution does not, and never did, grant special rights to the
> holders of explosives that are not possessed by other weapon owners. If you
> want to keep a weapon, you cannot threaten people with it and expect to keep
> it. If you place any weapon such that its proper use can harm me, I can take
> action. Your right to keep and bear a revolver does not allow you to place
> it where its proper usage can kill me, so neither does it allow the same
> with a bomb.
Agreed again. But I want the same right to own my warship, P-51, tank, or
bomb that I do have to own a gun. Regulating what weapons a citizen can own is
too much power for a government to have.
> You want to own a nuclear weapon, fine. Just so long as you don't place it
> where it can kill me, you can have it. But I won't grant you any right not
> possessed by people who own other weapons.
>
> Filksinger
Filksinger--
I don't know as we are in that much disagreement here. What I am trying to
establish is that the argument "You should not be allowed to own nuclear
weapons, therefore the government does have the right to regulate whatever
weapons it pleases" is bogus.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm.-- Vince
Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19222
From: Charles Graft <Lurker2143@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 07:10:57 -0500
Subject: Re: interesting article..
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:
> In article <3B1EBCF5.8DEEAC53@aol.com>, Charles Graft writes...
> ...
> > Hmmm. A random thought. One of the reasons our borders are so porous is
> > that drug money keeps them that way. So if you support drug prohibition, you
> > are supporting terrorists shipping nuclear weapons into our country?
>
> Well, I am opposed to drug prohibition, but I don't follow this, B.C.
> The borders are in part "porous" - in the sense that they are actually
> being crossed - because drug money is a motivator to cross (and in part
> because so is getting a better job). But I don't see that they would be
> any less "porous" - in the sense of the ease with which they /could/ be
> crossed - if these motivators were not present. If someone wanted to
> move a nuke into the U.S., he could either try to hide it in the enormous
> amount of legal traffic across the border or try to take advantage of the
> fact the the borders are too long and remote to police in detail.
>
> --
> Gordon Sollars
> gsollars@pobox.com
Gordon--
What I am saying is that as long as you are bribing border guards to look the
other way, you have now established the conditions for a porous border. So then it
is refugees, weapons, R-12 refrigerant, etc. No, these others won't go away if
prohibition is ended, but they would all have to support their own overhead instead
of riding on the corruption financed by drug money.
But by supporting drug prohibition, you will have more corruption on your
borders than otherwise.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm.-- Vince
Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19223
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 11:30:08 -0700
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Charles Graft" <Lurker2143@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3B24B31F.35C5EEDB@aol.com...
Filksinger--
> I don't know as we are in that much disagreement here. What I am
trying to
> establish is that the argument "You should not be allowed to own nuclear
> weapons, therefore the government does have the right to regulate whatever
> weapons it pleases" is bogus.
True. However, there is a possible outgrowth of this argument that is
relevant to the banning of nuclear weapons. You might consider if this helps
your position, as it might deal with the nuclear weapons issue without
granting one centimeter on the right to keep and bear arms. If you can show
that nuclear weapons can be taken out of human hands legitimately _without_
violating that right, then the right remains inviolable, but the "the RKBA
allows owning nuclear weapons" argument is then easily disposed of.
The problem with any heavy weapon is the difficulty of determining if it is
pointed at me. This can be used to define
What, exactly, is "safe"? For a firearm, in your holster is safe. If you
where a big poncho, and hold your hands so I can't be sure if you are
holding a weapon, I might justifiably feel threatened. How justified, and
under what circumstances, is a complex question.
What if you have a tall fence, and own a mortar? You could be arguing with
me on the phone, and preparing to shell my house if I don't back down.
Cannons are also a problem. Weapons of mass destruction are a particular
problem. Your "hands" are hidden unless I have a constant camera on your
bomb, or you store it on the Moon and I monitor transportation.
Under such circumstances, keeping a "safety zone" around your property, such
that your weapons cannot be brought into the zone without being considered a
"threat", might work to our advantage. It would allow restrictions to be
placed on nuclear weapons which are completely in accord with the right to
own them, but which make the point so moot that it becomes a useless
argument against the RKBA.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19224
From: Charles Graft <Lurker2143@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:36:38 -0500
Subject: Birthday Party
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
It has been decided by the powers that be (me and Fader) that with RAH's
birthday falling on a Saturday it is a good year to celebrate by
throwing a birthday party on that date. It will be at my house here in
Indianapolis and I do request that those who would like to come contact
me by E-Mail for directions and so I can get a count. I don't know what
all will be happening (planning is preliminary) but we will see. Anyone
who posts here is invited.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19225
From: Charles Graft <Lurker2143@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:52:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Birthday Party
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
All--
The lurker2143 address will work, but it really should be
Chasgraft@aol.com.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19226
From: Eli Hestermann <Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:10:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Birthday Party
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charlie-
It would help those of us who know Heinlein's work better than his bio
to know the date. And having made a PITA of myself, I'll add that since
our travel money and time for the year is pretty much gone, I won't be
able to attend.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa." -Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19227
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:21:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Birthday Party
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Eli Hestermann wrote:
> Charlie-
>
> It would help those of us who know Heinlein's work better than his bio
> to know the date.
I think that's an easy one to remember; all the sevens. He was born on July
7 1907.
I would love to meet up with some of the people I've got to know but Ontario
is a long way away. Have a great party!
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19228
From: Eli Hestermann <Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 11:40:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Birthday Party
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
ddavitt wrote:
> Eli Hestermann wrote:
>
> > Charlie-
> >
> > It would help those of us who know Heinlein's work better than his bio
> > to know the date.
>
> I think that's an easy one to remember; all the sevens. He was born on July
> 7 1907.
> I would love to meet up with some of the people I've got to know but Ontario
> is a long way away. Have a great party!
It _is_ easy, but my mind only holds so many dates, and when it comes down to
RAH's birthday versus my wife's.... <g>
--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa." -Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19229
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 09:07:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Birthday Party
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft wrote:
> It has been decided by the powers that be (me and Fader) that with RAH's
> birthday falling on a Saturday it is a good year to celebrate by
> throwing a birthday party on that date.
Anyone who will be in the northwest instead on 7 July 2001 is invited to
join me, Bill Patterson, Andy Thornton and a thousand or two of our
closest friends as we officially launch _The Martian Named Smith_ at
Westercon 54, in Portland.
:)
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19230
Article no longer available
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19231
From: webnews@sff.net
Date: 12 Jun 2001 17:23:17 GMT
Subject: SpamGuard
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
One or more articles in this newsgroup have been cancelled by the sysops
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------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19232
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 10:37:48 -0700
Subject: Re: Birthday Party
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3B263E2B.C490C5DD@rcsis.com...
> Charles Graft wrote:
> > It has been decided by the powers that be (me and Fader) that with RAH's
> > birthday falling on a Saturday it is a good year to celebrate by
> > throwing a birthday party on that date.
>
> Anyone who will be in the northwest instead on 7 July 2001 is invited to
> join me, Bill Patterson, Andy Thornton and a thousand or two of our
> closest friends as we officially launch _The Martian Named Smith_ at
> Westercon 54, in Portland.
>
> :)
I don't think I can even make that, but it is something I have as a goal, if
my finances permit. Wish me luck!
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19233
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2001 22:57:33 -0400
Subject: A PicoGathering on the Trail
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Just a quick note to report a very small Gathering this past weekend:
After several earlier exchanges here on the HF and a previous missed
connection, I was finally able to join Eli Hesterman and his lovely wife
Dani for some hiking on the Appalachian Trail in western Connecticut.
I met them on Sunday morning at the trailhead parking area off US 7 near
Lime Rock (yes, car-racing fans, *that* Lime Rock), and we headed south
on the trail. This was the second day of a weekend trip for Eli and
Dani, and I really appreciate them letting a tenderfoot like me tag
along. In between my huffs and puffs (don't let anyone tell you hiking
the AT isn't an aerobic sport! <g>), we chatted about Forum stuff, their
time in Japan, Anne and my time in Korea, and stuff in general... and
just had a great time. We had nearly perfect weather ("nearly" because
we would've enjoyed a skosh more breeze at times) and enjoyed some
spectacular views along the way. I think the most singular sight was at
a place called Hang Glider View, where there was a narrow length of
wooden decking, like a small boat dock, that just led off into the void.
Of course, it's a hang-glider launch ramp (we shared some bemused words
about the task of getting a hang glider up the trail to that point), but
it struck me as slightly spooky. I didn't think of it at the time, but
in retrospect, the thing reminds me a bit of the diving board off the
roof of Todos Santos in _Oath of Fealty_.
By mid afternoon (~2:30? Maybe Eli will chime in with the precise
details) we'd covered about 7 miles and reached the spot where Eli had
left his car. He drove us back to pick up the other cars, then we all
drove into Salisbury for a celebratory ice cream before heading to our
respective homes.
Despite my long tenure here, this was only the second time I'd met a
fellow HFer in person (the other time was ~8 years ago when I visited
with The Admiral in DC), and I really had a great time. I'm looking
forward to visiting with Eli and Dani again, on the trail or otherwise.
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19234
From: Vesta" <mmsportal@alltel.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 00:16:32 -0500
Subject: hi
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I just wanted to introduce myself. I'm new to forums & such & wasn't sure
just what to do. I have been reading the works of R.A.H. for about 15 years
and I thoroughly enjoy every single one of his works (although I still say
that Poddy should have lived{like in the original published work} as opposed
to died {in a later published work [Ace PB, I believe]. Sorry, went off on a
tangent there. Anyway Hi.
Vesta (Missi)
mmsportal@alltel.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19235
From: Vesta" <mmsportal@alltel.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 01:21:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
could it possibly be "Necronomicon" with Jeffrey Combs?
Vesta
"noone" <no_one@home> wrote in message news:3adcb60a.0@news.sff.net...
> i'm trying to remember a videotape i once rented that, i seem to remember,
> dealt with an attempt to "call up cthulu" but the title and period won't
> come to mind, anyone else?
> "gunner"
>
> "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
> news:3a9c4684.0@news.sff.net...
> >
> > "Bob Lawson" <bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com> wrote in message
> > news:3a9c4167.270343@news.sff.net...
> > > I first heard the term cthulu after listening to a radio program
> > > called cthonic transmissions on KDVS (UC Davis radio station). I asked
> > > Jim what Cthulu is and he enlightened me as to the basic "embodiment
> > > of evil" idea. He told me who created Cthulu, but I didn't remember
> > > Lovecraft in particular. I have never read Lovecraft.
> >
> > In a strange way he is overhyped. While he is horrible and evil, he
isn't
> > the embodyment himself; he is the priest of something utterly unknown
> which
> > presumably is far worse.
> >
> > He is the alien high priest of a cult far older than man. He is
monsterous
> > in size, horribly powerful and drives men who look upon him to insanity
or
> > death by fear. What his purpose or cult truly is, no one knows, since
none
> > of his worshipers have ever seen him, but it is believed that he talks
to
> > them with his thoughts while he lays in hybernation, and promises a
> > worldwide orgy of depravity and murder when he awakens and is freed by
his
> > cultists, "when the stars are right". What he worships is unknown, but
the
> > evidence is that it is truly horrible indeed.
> >
> > Filksinger
> >
> >
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19236
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:57:12 GMT
Subject: Re: Birthday Party
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:36:38 -0500, Charles Graft <Lurker2143@aol.com>
wrote:
>It has been decided by the powers that be (me and Fader) that with RAH's
>birthday falling on a Saturday it is a good year to celebrate by
>throwing a birthday party on that date. It will be at my house here in
>Indianapolis and I do request that those who would like to come contact
>me by E-Mail for directions and so I can get a count. I don't know what
>all will be happening (planning is preliminary) but we will see. Anyone
>who posts here is invited.
>
Yes, plenty of space to put people, & can do pickups from the airport
& such too. Good eats & drinks, & the best company.
Hope to see yous there.
Fader
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19237
From: hf_jai@prodigy.net (Jai Johnson-Pickett)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 12:00:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Aslan v. Potter
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Fri, 8 Jun 2001 22:38:26 -0700, "Lorrita Morgan"
<lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Inspired by Harry Potter mania, the estate of C.S. Lewis plans to release
>new Narnia novels devoid of Christian symbolism. Something tells me Lewis
>never envisioned Aslan as "The Lion King." (from Backwire.com's Art &
>Literature Backwire 6/6/2001)
>http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0%2C6109%2C501057%2C00.html
Hi 'rita!
Y'know, I've read this will happen too--a major row on a Christian
Trekker's bb I visit occassionally. But for the life of me, I can't
figure out how it could be done. The Christian symbolism of the
Narnian chronicals is imbedded in the story, not tacked on as an
afterthought. How on earth can they remove it without totally
changing the plot? And what would be the point of that?
I suppose they could remove the references Aslan makes to "my father
beyond the sea" ...or was it sky? [I haven't read them since
college.] But that wouldn't change anything significant, really. Not
as Aslan still gets executed on the stone table to save the boy who
betrayed them all to the Ice Queen.
Now, they could also re-publish or animate the story without
mentioning Christianity, but I don't recall that C.S. Lewis ever
specifically mentioned Christianity (in the Narnia books) either.
That's usually done in the forward/preface or on the cover, and who
cares about those anyway.
This might be a tempest in a teapot... or perhaps an effort to tick
off the Christians and get some free publicity?
Even tho I'm not a Christian, I do love The Chronicles of Narnia,
especially The Last Battle, just the way they are.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19238
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:21:26 -0500
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
> Cannons are also a problem.--
Cannon I will answer specifically on. They did exist at the time of the
second amendment, and the Federal government was certainly not give the power to
regulate them. I know a man who owns one -- he does civil war re-enactments.
And no, I so not think the government should be able to say who can own them.
<<Big Charlie>>
If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with enthusiasm.-- Vince
Lombardi
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19239
From: David Wright" <maikosht@alltel.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 09:28:57 -0400
Subject: Re: hi
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Vesta" <mmsportal@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:3b26f68f.0@news.sff.net...
> I just wanted to introduce myself. I'm new to forums & such & wasn't sure
> just what to do. I have been reading the works of R.A.H. for about 15
years
> and I thoroughly enjoy every single one of his works (although I still say
> that Poddy should have lived{like in the original published work} as
opposed
> to died {in a later published work [Ace PB, I believe]. Sorry, went off on
a
> tangent there. Anyway Hi.
>
> Vesta (Missi)
> mmsportal@alltel.net
>
>
>
Welcome, Vesta. Don't worry about going off on tangents. That is a perfectly
normal behavior for most of us.
You might also like to look also at alt.fan.heinlein newsgroup. The volume
of traffic, (and opinions), are typically higher there.
In addition, I would like to invite you to join in our Heinlein Readers
Group discussions, which we hold every 2nd week on Thursday at 9:00 P.M. EDT
and Saturday 5:00 P.M. EDT. The saturday discussion is held earlier to try
to get more people from outside the USA to join in.
The topic for 6/21-23 is 'Aliens in Heinlein'. Previous archived discussions
are to be found on my web page at:
http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html
Instructions on downloading the free software which we use for these
discussions are also found on my page.
You might also like to know about The Heinlein Society. This information can
be found at:
http://www.heinleinsociety.org/_Site/Joining/Join_Us.asp
Again. welcome
David Wright
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19240
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 08:27:11 -0500
Subject: Re: hi
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Vesta--
Well, Howdy. And welcome. Pull up a few pixels and dive into some
discussions.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19241
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:30:44 -0400
Subject: Re: hi
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Hi Vesta; I don't want Poddy to die either. Yes, Heinlein did, yes, it's
artistic and all....but I like happy endings.
Welcome to the group!
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19242
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:04:53 -0700
Subject: Re: hi
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Vesta" <mmsportal@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:3b26f68f.0@news.sff.net...
> I just wanted to introduce myself. I'm new to forums & such & wasn't sure
> just what to do. I have been reading the works of R.A.H. for about 15
years
> and I thoroughly enjoy every single one of his works (although I still say
> that Poddy should have lived{like in the original published work} as
opposed
> to died {in a later published work [Ace PB, I believe]. Sorry, went off on
a
> tangent there. Anyway Hi.
Glad you made it!
As far as going off on a tangent goes, there is nothing "off-topic" on this
newsgroup, and nothing ever stays on the proper topic more than three
replies deep. Consider that the topic "Gee-wiz, a neat gadget" is now "2nd
Amendment".
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19243
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:09:45 -0700
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3B2768D6.3823944E@aol.com...
> Filksinger wrote:
>
> > Cannons are also a problem.--
>
> Cannon I will answer specifically on. They did exist at the time of
the
> second amendment, and the Federal government was certainly not give the
power to
> regulate them. I know a man who owns one -- he does civil war
re-enactments.
> And no, I so not think the government should be able to say who can own
them.
But I didn't say that they did. Only that cannon should be, like any other
weapon, stored in a safe configuration, and that I have a right to know if
you put it where I am endangered by it.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19244
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2001 19:27:26 -0400
Subject: Re: interesting article..
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Mon, 11 Jun 2001 07:10:57 -0500, Charles Graft wrote:
>Gordon--
>
> What I am saying is that as long as you are bribing border guards to look the
>other way, you have now established the conditions for a porous border. So then it
>is refugees, weapons, R-12 refrigerant, etc. No, these others won't go away if
>prohibition is ended, but they would all have to support their own overhead instead
>of riding on the corruption financed by drug money.
>
> But by supporting drug prohibition, you will have more corruption on your
>borders than otherwise.
Charlie: Well said.
Ed J
"We" never learned the lesson of Alcohol Prohibition and how it
spawned a thousand-fold growth in organized crime.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19245
From: Vesta" <mmsportal@alltel.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 02:54:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Anomaly!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
If you make them both variables it works fine as well
Vesta
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3AEF9C5A.90A0371C@aol.com...
> OK, all you computer people--
> I ran into an anomaly while doing my calendar program -- I can't
> multiply 3600 by 12. I get an overflow. Every time. Using either
> double precision or long integer math. Visual basic is my usual
> language; but I brought up my old qbasic program and had the same
> difficulty. My processor is a 733MHz. pentium III (Intel). I don't
> have other hardware around at the moment. The test program is:
> ---------------------------
> dim test as long
> test = 3600 * 12
> It also fails is you use dim test as a double
>
> what I did to get around it was
> test = (3600 * 1.2)*10 which works fine.
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> If you aren't fired with enthusiasm, you will be fired with
> enthusiasm.-- Vince Lombardi
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19246
From: Eli Hestermann <Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu>
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 08:54:14 -0400
Subject: Re: A PicoGathering on the Trail
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Bill Dauphin wrote:
> I'm looking forward to visiting with Eli and Dani again, on the trail or
> otherwise.
Agreement here. We had a good time as well.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa." -Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19247
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:13:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Anomaly!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Vesta--
If both variabales are defined as single, you still be the overflow
no matter whether or not the output variable is long, single, or
double. The sequence:
Dim a As Integer
Dim b As Integer
Dim c As Long
a = 3600
b = 12
c = a * b
will cause an error on this step. But changing step two, it works
fine.
b = 12#
c = a * c
This is true in both QB4.5 and Visiual Basic 3.0.
If both operands are defined as short integers, it will overflow.
Whether they are variables or constants.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19248
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:14:35 -0500
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger--
Only if you have (legal) reason to believe they are not. There is
also this little matter of innocent until proven guilty.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19249
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 13:16:31 -0500
Subject: Re: interesting article..
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Ed Johnson wrote:
> Charlie: Well said.
>
> Ed J
> "We" never learned the lesson of Alcohol Prohibition and how it
> spawned a thousand-fold growth in organized crime.
And drug prohibition is the "big" thing sustaining the current levels of organized crime.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19250
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 14:59:32 -0700
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3B28FF0B.65914E7@aol.com...
> Filksinger--
>
> Only if you have (legal) reason to believe they are not. There is
> also this little matter of innocent until proven guilty.
Innocent until proven guilty is irrelevant. It only applies to your
assumption of innocence in a court of law, until you are proven guilty in a
court of law. _Different_ principles apply to when a search can be made to
determine if, in fact, you _are_ violating the law, and they are much less
well defined.
Searches can occur under circumstances that do not even approach "innocent
until proven guilty", by any reasonable standard. Otherwise, you wouldn't
need to search, because you would already have proven the subject guilty.
Exactly when such a search can occur is not clearly defined, except in a
body of law and legal opinion, subject to change and interpretation. What
defines "(legal) reason to believe they are not"? The definition isn't found
in the Constitution, and certainly isn't a general principle of law. It is,
instead, a big muddy mess of law and legal opinion.
Suppose a man known to be carrying firearms, and your personal enemy, walks
near you with his hands completely concealed by a poncho such that it is
quite possible that he is pointing a gun at you at this very moment. What,
if anything, can you do about it? Different legal opinions will give you
different answers, as will different laws.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19251
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:29:35 GMT
Subject: Re: hi
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Wed, 13 Jun 2001 11:04:53 -0700, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>> tangent there. Anyway Hi.
>
>Glad you made it!
>
>As far as going off on a tangent goes, there is nothing "off-topic" on this
>newsgroup, and nothing ever stays on the proper topic more than three
>replies deep. Consider that the topic "Gee-wiz, a neat gadget" is now "2nd
>Amendment".
>
>Filksinger
>
Filk's right, Vesta. Can't get off-topic in the Forum. ;) Try to
stick to RAH-only discussion in sff.people.r-a-h, though.
We've got a website at http://www.sff.net/people/HF/ with
abbreviations and some pictures of the longer-term HFers.
Glad to meet you, and hope you stick around. Feel free to give more
biographical information if you wish, or as you feel more comfortable,
or never.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19252
From: Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2001 17:55:19 -0700
Subject: Re: Birthday Party
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I have to give the kids' car back before then. :-( Portland is closer than
Indy just not close enough.
--
Later,
`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.
"James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3B263E2B.C490C5DD@rcsis.com...
> Charles Graft wrote:
> > It has been decided by the powers that be (me and Fader) that with RAH's
> > birthday falling on a Saturday it is a good year to celebrate by
> > throwing a birthday party on that date.
>
> Anyone who will be in the northwest instead on 7 July 2001 is invited to
> join me, Bill Patterson, Andy Thornton and a thousand or two of our
> closest friends as we officially launch _The Martian Named Smith_ at
> Westercon 54, in Portland.
>
> :)
>
> --
>
> | James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
> | See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19253
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:33:56 -0400
Subject: Re: hi
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Vesta" <mmsportal@alltel.net> wrote in message
news:3b26f68f.0@news.sff.net...
> I just wanted to introduce myself. I'm new to forums & such & wasn't sure
> just what to do. I have been reading the works of R.A.H. for about 15
years
That name sounds somewhat familiar. Did you hang out in any of the other
Heinlein Forums in the past?
If I'm confused, it won't be the first time! In any case, welcome!
But I must admit that there was a certain (but different) sense to the
ending of Podkayne of Mars, with Poddy dying. Better or worse depends on
your point of view, a lot can be learned inthe lesson of Poddy's death that
does not come through as strongly when she lives.
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19254
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:35:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Birthday Party
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Fader" <fader555@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3b273817.604040@news.sff.net...
> On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:36:38 -0500, Charles Graft <Lurker2143@aol.com>
> wrote:
>
> >It has been decided by the powers that be (me and Fader) that with RAH's
> >birthday falling on a Saturday it is a good year to celebrate by
> >throwing a birthday party on that date. It will be at my house here in
> >Indianapolis
Still checking on vacation availability, will let you know soon!
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19255
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:38:56 -0400
Subject: Did we discuss this yet?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Nothing earth shattering, but I liked it.
From Dilbert, June 6:
Dance like it hurts
Love like you need the money
Work when people are watching
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19256
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 11:55:49 -0700
Subject: Mailing list
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
sff.people.robert-a-heinlein
Just a heads-up: I've finally put together an update/newsletter for
NitroPress and will be emailing issues of it at irregular intervals
(probably a couple of times a year). If you bought ARC or a T-shirt in
the past, you're on the list (as you've no doubt already discovered).
Anyone whose email address has changed, or has never placed a NitroPress
order, and is interested in being on the list is invited to sign on at
http://www.nitrosyncretic.com/mailform.html. This is and will remain a
confidential list, used only for NitroPress informational mailings.
(If you figure you should be on the list and you didn't get an email in
the last day or two, I must not have your current email address. Please
drop in and add your corrected info. I will remail issue #1 to everyone
who missed the mass mailing.)
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19257
From: Madge Van Ness <madgevn@angelfire.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:11:10 -0400
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Yes, but for public health and safety, housing inspectors are allowed to "knock
& enter" without a warrant. We have one guy here in DC who would do his housing
inspection, then tell the police if he saw anything obviously illegal so they
could get a warrant. He apparently did this without getting shot.
MadgEdith
Filksinger wrote:
> "Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:3B28FF0B.65914E7@aol.com...
> > Filksinger--
> >
> > Only if you have (legal) reason to believe they are not. There is
> > also this little matter of innocent until proven guilty.
>
> Innocent until proven guilty is irrelevant. It only applies to your
> assumption of innocence in a court of law, until you are proven guilty in a
> court of law. _Different_ principles apply to when a search can be made to
> determine if, in fact, you _are_ violating the law, and they are much less
> well defined.
>
> Searches can occur under circumstances that do not even approach "innocent
> until proven guilty", by any reasonable standard. Otherwise, you wouldn't
> need to search, because you would already have proven the subject guilty.
> Exactly when such a search can occur is not clearly defined, except in a
> body of law and legal opinion, subject to change and interpretation. What
> defines "(legal) reason to believe they are not"? The definition isn't found
> in the Constitution, and certainly isn't a general principle of law. It is,
> instead, a big muddy mess of law and legal opinion.
>
> Suppose a man known to be carrying firearms, and your personal enemy, walks
> near you with his hands completely concealed by a poncho such that it is
> quite possible that he is pointing a gun at you at this very moment. What,
> if anything, can you do about it? Different legal opinions will give you
> different answers, as will different laws.
>
> Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19258
From: Madge Van Ness <madgevn@angelfire.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2001 21:21:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Aslan v. Potter
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Yeah, Jai, but it doesn't look like they intend to change the original Narnia
stories, I think they intend to publish new stories in the same universe. And
I tend to agree with the tendency to twist the innocent when they write
"pseudo sequels".
MadgEdith
Jai Johnson-Pickett wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Jun 2001 22:38:26 -0700, "Lorrita Morgan"
> <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> >Inspired by Harry Potter mania, the estate of C.S. Lewis plans to release
> >new Narnia novels devoid of Christian symbolism. Something tells me Lewis
> >never envisioned Aslan as "The Lion King." (from Backwire.com's Art &
> >Literature Backwire 6/6/2001)
> >http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0%2C6109%2C501057%2C00.html
>
> Hi 'rita!
> Y'know, I've read this will happen too--a major row on a Christian
> Trekker's bb I visit occassionally. But for the life of me, I can't
> figure out how it could be done. The Christian symbolism of the
> Narnian chronicals is imbedded in the story, not tacked on as an
> afterthought. How on earth can they remove it without totally
> changing the plot? And what would be the point of that?
>
> I suppose they could remove the references Aslan makes to "my father
> beyond the sea" ...or was it sky? [I haven't read them since
> college.] But that wouldn't change anything significant, really. Not
> as Aslan still gets executed on the stone table to save the boy who
> betrayed them all to the Ice Queen.
>
> Now, they could also re-publish or animate the story without
> mentioning Christianity, but I don't recall that C.S. Lewis ever
> specifically mentioned Christianity (in the Narnia books) either.
> That's usually done in the forward/preface or on the cover, and who
> cares about those anyway.
>
> This might be a tempest in a teapot... or perhaps an effort to tick
> off the Christians and get some free publicity?
>
> Even tho I'm not a Christian, I do love The Chronicles of Narnia,
> especially The Last Battle, just the way they are.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19259
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 08:47:03 -0400
Subject: Gharlane
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I'm a bit surprised no one has mentioned Gharlane on the group...I
didn't know him, just had one exchange of posts over on afh but I'll
always remember him for being the one who pointed out the anagrams
in NOTB and had me spending a night working them out ( some of
them).
So many groups are mourning him; just didn't want a Heinlein group
to ignore his death when he was undoubtedly a Heinlein fan.
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19260
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 11:53:06 -0400
Subject: Re: Gharlane
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Jane: Is this something covered in RAH: ARC ?
(NOTB anagrams, that is.)
Ed J
On Sat, 16 Jun 2001 08:47:03 -0400, ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
wrote:
>
>I'm a bit surprised no one has mentioned Gharlane on the group...I
>didn't know him, just had one exchange of posts over on afh but I'll
>always remember him for being the one who pointed out the anagrams
>in NOTB and had me spending a night working them out ( some of
>them).
>So many groups are mourning him; just didn't want a Heinlein group
>to ignore his death when he was undoubtedly a Heinlein fan.
>
>Jane
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19261
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 12:58:04 -0500
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
> Suppose a man known to be carrying firearms, and your personal enemy, walks
> near you with his hands completely concealed by a poncho such that it is
> quite possible that he is pointing a gun at you at this very moment. What,
> if anything, can you do about it? Different legal opinions will give you
> different answers, as will different laws.
>
> Filksinger
Filksinger--
> Amendment IV
> The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
> papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and
> seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue,
> but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and
> particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
> persons or things to be seized.
It seems to me to be pretty clear The ability to commit a crime does not
constitute a crime. Where is probably cause? You are in effect asking him to
prove his innocence, which to me it not justified at all. I consider this
reasoning much more straightforward than for example, flag burning as a form of
free speech. So you are paranoid. That does not give you the right to trample
on mine.
MadgeEdith--
Even more so. I am surprised this is not considered illegal evidence.
Next thing all police could be deputized as housing inspectors and the
constitution is out the window.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19262
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 13:00:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Birthday Party
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"William J. Keaton" wrote:
> Still checking on vacation availability, will let you know soon!
>
> --
> WJaKe
I hope you can make it. Need a place to stay? My spare bedroom is now
furnished.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19263
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 15:54:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Birthday Party
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Jake:
How crowded is your schedule for the Millennium Philcon this Labor
Day weekend? I hope that you can get some free time around all of
the activities. Maybe some of the DC area cobbers can come to
Philly and spend some time (Lunch? Dinner?) I am about an hour
from the Pennsylvania Convention Center and look forward to meeting
new face and old alike.
I hope to meed James Gifford and family if time permits (isn't
Philcon where they vote on his book's Hugo nomination?).
Ed J
On Fri, 15 Jun 2001 00:35:15 -0400, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>"Fader" <fader555@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:3b273817.604040@news.sff.net...
>> On Tue, 12 Jun 2001 07:36:38 -0500, Charles Graft <Lurker2143@aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >It has been decided by the powers that be (me and Fader) that with RAH's
>> >birthday falling on a Saturday it is a good year to celebrate by
>> >throwing a birthday party on that date. It will be at my house here in
>> >Indianapolis
>
>Still checking on vacation availability, will let you know soon!
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19264
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:18:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Gharlane
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Ed Johnson wrote:
> Jane: Is this something covered in RAH: ARC ?
> (NOTB anagrams, that is.)
> Ed J
>
Yes, Jim lists them in the entry for Number. They come from a letter
Heinlein wrote to his friends at the time the book came out. The letter
is an appendix in Leon Stover's book. I got several working with Dave
Silver but some eluded us until I finally got the Stover book.
Here is the list for anyone who is interested..hope I'm not infringing
copyright or anything. The inclusion of Ginny on the list makes me wonder
if it was a nod towards her being the first reader, who suggested changes
and such.
The first number is the page number in the USA editions; the second
number ( in parentheses) refers to the UK editions.
19 (9) Neil O’Heret Brain = Robert A Heinlein
93 (93) Bennie Hibol = Bob Heinlein
176 (177) Morinosky = Simon York (pen name; UNKNOWN et al.)
262 (273) Iver Hird-Jones = John Riverside (pen name: UNKNOWN et al.)
499 (539) The Villains Nine Rig Ruin = Lt Virginia Heinlein USNR
499 (540) Torne, Hernia, Lien and Snob = Robert Anson Heinlein
509 (553) Sir Tenderloinn the Brutal = Lt Robert A Heinlein USN RTD
509 (554) L Ron O’Leemy = Lyle Monroe ( pen name for SF 1939 -46)
510 (555) Mellrooney = Lyle Monroe ( pen name for SF 1939 - 46)
And Heinlein thought we'd all spot Neil and get suspicoius...duh! How
many times did I read it and never get it?
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19265
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:26:37 -0700
Subject: Re: Birthday Party
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Ed Johnson wrote:
> I hope to meed James Gifford and family if time permits (isn't
> Philcon where they vote on his book's Hugo nomination?).
The voting is open now through July 18; you have to be (or become) a
member of Philcon to vote. Supporting (non-attending, but voting)
memberships are $40.
We've got a pretty crowded schedule, but we could make a lunch or dinner
one day if a group of HF'ers want to make the journey.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19266
From: les.johnson@erols.com (Les)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 14:54:40 GMT
Subject: Re: Birthday Party
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
JP, Jack and I will be at Philcon and we would love to meet everyone
for lunch/dinner as well!
Les
On Sat, 16 Jun 2001 16:26:37 -0700, James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
wrote:
>Ed Johnson wrote:
>> I hope to meed James Gifford and family if time permits (isn't
>> Philcon where they vote on his book's Hugo nomination?).
>
>The voting is open now through July 18; you have to be (or become) a
>member of Philcon to vote. Supporting (non-attending, but voting)
>memberships are $40.
>
>We've got a pretty crowded schedule, but we could make a lunch or dinner
>one day if a group of HF'ers want to make the journey.
>--
>
>| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
>| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19267
From: debrule@citlink.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:34:51 GMT
Subject: Re: Aslan v. Potter
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>This might be a tempest in a teapot... or perhaps an effort to tick
>off the Christians and get some free publicity?
When I first read the Narnia books, at age 19, I didn't catch the
Christian symbolism at all. I think the books can be read ignoring any
Christian symbolism without it affecting the story. The problem when
they write these pseudo-sequels is that in trying to eliminate the
symbolism they're trying to eliminate they're removing an element that
made the stories work. They'll come out hollow and not taste right
even if--by some miracle--they manage to produce decent stories that
are written in Lewis style.
Deb (D.A. Houdek)
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19268
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 12:42:42 -0700
Subject: Marz Attax
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"I have a warehouse full of Martians."
Sounds like a code phrase from "Get Smart," doesn't it?
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19269
From: Catherine Hampton <xzm@hrweb.org>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2001 15:47:22 -0700
Subject: Re: Aslan v. Potter
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:34:51 GMT, debrule@citlink.net (Deb Houdek
Rule) wrote:
>
>>This might be a tempest in a teapot... or perhaps an effort to tick
>>off the Christians and get some free publicity?
>
> When I first read the Narnia books, at age 19, I didn't catch the
>Christian symbolism at all. I think the books can be read ignoring any
>Christian symbolism without it affecting the story. The problem when
>they write these pseudo-sequels is that in trying to eliminate the
>symbolism they're trying to eliminate they're removing an element that
>made the stories work. They'll come out hollow and not taste right
>even if--by some miracle--they manage to produce decent stories that
>are written in Lewis style.
I agree with Deb. I first read the Chronicles of Narnia when I was
fifteen -- my grandfather got them for me for Christmas. I had no
idea they were full of Christian symbolism at the time, and didn't
find out for a few years. The substance of the books themselves
caught my imagination.
But that substance =IS= Christian, where Lewis is concerned. To try
to modify his books or write in his universe without the Christianity
is akin to trying to remove the pagan elements from Marion Zimmer
Bradley's work. (And perhaps more so.)
--
Ariel (aka Catherine Hampton) <ariel@tempest.boxmail.com>
===========================================================
Home Page * <http://www.hrweb.org/ariel/>
Human Rights Web * <http://www.hrweb.org/>
Icon Wall * <http://www.iconwall.org/>
Kovalevo Children's Home * <http://www.kovalevo.org/>
REVEAL * <http://www.reveal.org/>
The Spam Bouncer * <http://www.spambouncer.org/>
(Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header is a
spam trap.)
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19270
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:16:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
It is a sorry state of affairs that a nation barely freed from communism
would open outer space to a commercial tourism.
--
William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com and
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3AEA5A52.A0A20CBE@rcsis.com...
>
> "The idea that any rich man could just lay cash on the line and _go_ was
> more than I could stand."
>
> Damn you, Dennis Tito.
>
> --
>
> | James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
> | See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19271
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:46:41 -0500
Subject: Re: hi
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
William J. Keaton <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3b298f3a.0@news.sff.net...
>
> "Vesta" <mmsportal@alltel.net> wrote in message
> news:3b26f68f.0@news.sff.net...
> > I just wanted to introduce myself. I'm new to forums & such & wasn't
sure
> > just what to do. I have been reading the works of R.A.H. for about 15
> years
>
> That name sounds somewhat familiar. Did you hang out in any of the other
> Heinlein Forums in the past?
>
> If I'm confused, it won't be the first time! In any case, welcome!
>
> But I must admit that there was a certain (but different) sense to the
> ending of Podkayne of Mars, with Poddy dying. Better or worse depends on
> your point of view, a lot can be learned inthe lesson of Poddy's death
that
> does not come through as strongly when she lives.
>
Despite Heinlein's intention that Poddy die, she still ends up alive and
well at the party at the end of The Number of the Beast.
--
William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com and
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19272
From: Shane Glaseman <Shane.Glaseman@aero.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 12:47:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
You mean, because they shouldn't have done so?
Or because *we* should have done it long ago?
Shane
"William B. Dennis 2nd" wrote:
>
> It is a sorry state of affairs that a nation barely freed from communism
> would open outer space to a commercial tourism.
>
> --
> William B. Dennis 2nd
> http://billscontent.tripod.com and
> http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
>
> James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
> news:3AEA5A52.A0A20CBE@rcsis.com...
> >
> > "The idea that any rich man could just lay cash on the line and _go_ was
> > more than I could stand."
> >
> > Damn you, Dennis Tito.
> >
> > --
> >
> > | James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
> > | See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19273
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:49:43 -0500
Subject: Re: Aslan v. Potter
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:3B22BA9E.231D789D@netcom.ca...
> Lorrita Morgan wrote:
>
> > Inspired by Harry Potter mania, the estate of C.S. Lewis plans to
release
> > new Narnia novels devoid of Christian symbolism. Something tells me
Lewis
> > never envisioned Aslan as "The Lion King." (from Backwire.com's Art &
> > Literature Backwire 6/6/2001)
> > http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0%2C6109%2C501057%2C00.html
> >
> >
>
> There's been a lot of discussion about this on rasfw. I'm appalled. It's
part
> of an insidious fashion of going beyond "The End". Perhaps it's an
indictment
> on modern fiction that so many authors are writing sequels to classics
> instead of writing their own books. Off the top of my head I can think of
> many; Jane Austen books, The Secret Garden, all the Little House
> prequel/sequels.....sometimes they're good in their own right ( Tom Holt's
> Lucia books ) but generally they force the story into another dimension
and
> rarely leave me with a satisfied feeling. It spoils the originals after
> you've read the faux sequels and the heroes have become unhappy and
twisted.
> And they usually do.
>
> Jane
This is exactly my problem with all the Star Trek novels running about.
--
William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com and
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19274
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:51:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Aslan v. Potter
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Catherine Hampton <xzm@hrweb.org> wrote in message
news:jbj8itorkasucpd9e0rs1q614v850v3rar@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 8 Jun 2001 22:38:26 -0700, "Lorrita Morgan"
> <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> >Inspired by Harry Potter mania, the estate of C.S. Lewis plans to release
> >new Narnia novels devoid of Christian symbolism. Something tells me Lewis
> >never envisioned Aslan as "The Lion King." (from Backwire.com's Art &
> >Literature Backwire 6/6/2001)
> >http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0%2C6109%2C501057%2C00.html
>
> IMHO that is about as appropriate as Christianizing Heinlein would be.
> It violates the whole character of Lewis's work and what he was trying
> to do. And because some b*st*rds are too greedy to write their own
> books. :(
>
I know, lets rewrite Starship Troopers, but leave out all that stuff about
duty, honor and responsibility and citizenship. That way, no one could
complain he is a fascist anymore!
And while we're at it, lets leave out all the rational-ararchist stuff in
Moon is a Harsh Mistress.
--
William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com and
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19275
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:55:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Aslan v. Potter
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Catherine Hampton <xzm@hrweb.org> wrote in message
news:e11titk32fb5m8d0bu97cihd6ppb6p6t5c@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 17 Jun 2001 19:34:51 GMT, debrule@citlink.net (Deb Houdek
> Rule) wrote:
>
> >
> >>This might be a tempest in a teapot... or perhaps an effort to tick
> >>off the Christians and get some free publicity?
> >
> > When I first read the Narnia books, at age 19, I didn't catch the
> >Christian symbolism at all. I think the books can be read ignoring any
> >Christian symbolism without it affecting the story. The problem when
> >they write these pseudo-sequels is that in trying to eliminate the
> >symbolism they're trying to eliminate they're removing an element that
> >made the stories work. They'll come out hollow and not taste right
> >even if--by some miracle--they manage to produce decent stories that
> >are written in Lewis style.
>
> I agree with Deb. I first read the Chronicles of Narnia when I was
> fifteen -- my grandfather got them for me for Christmas. I had no
> idea they were full of Christian symbolism at the time, and didn't
> find out for a few years. The substance of the books themselves
> caught my imagination.
>
> But that substance =IS= Christian, where Lewis is concerned. To try
> to modify his books or write in his universe without the Christianity
> is akin to trying to remove the pagan elements from Marion Zimmer
> Bradley's work. (And perhaps more so.)
>
I think it is great that we fans of Heinlein -- who took his own potshots at
organized religion -- are defending another's author's right to convertly
preach Christianity in his book.
I think it boils down to respect -- the respect a reader must have for the
right of an author to speak his mind.
--
William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com and
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19276
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 15:03:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Draft and voting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
William J. Keaton <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3b15e4e3.0@news.sff.net...
>
> "ddavitt" <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
> >
> > I was thinking about that recently...what do you suppose would have
> > happened to that society if the Bugs had been on the verge of
> > invading/winning? Do you think they would have abandoned their
principles
> > and instituted a draft?
> > If they did, after the war was won ( no point in looking at the
> > alternative) what would the effect be of all those extra voters who were
> > forced into being responsible for their own safety?<<see my aside
below>>
>
> Well, look at all the "extra" voters in the US, "forced" into being
> responsible for thier own future by the consitutional right and duty
imposed
> upon them:
>
> My guess? About half of them would not vote.
> Does anyone know an easy reference for voter turnout in US Presidential
> elections? Especially early elections from the first elections, when our
new
> republic was just starting to elect national leaders. I did find a graph
> that goes back to 1960, showing a decline from around 63 % to just under
50%
> in Presidential elections, and truly dismal turnouts in off-year
> Congressional elections.
>
> > Would their time as
> > soldiers have embittered them, matured them or had no effect ( or any of
> > the above, depending on the person).
>
> Probably a combination of all three. It may depend on how popular the war
> was with the public. Compare WW2 and Vietnam, both wars fought by a
> combination of draftees and volunteers.
>
> > Would the political system break down
> > as it returned to the mass voting rather than the few?
>
> Not any more broken than ours currently is!
>
> >
> > Jane (unable to believe she took that dangling worm :-))
> >
> Teaches you to be the early bird!
>
> <<Aside: How are the citizen-voters of ST responsible for their safety?
> Aside from the fact that policeman is a veteran's job. They are no more
or
> less responsible for their personal safety than any non-citizen, and less
> reponsible for the safety of the "body politic" (to quote the textbook
> answer) as they are no longer soldiers (or serving in one of the other
forms
> of federal service.)
> end aside>>
> <<<begin digression: Can an "aside" be "below"? end digression>>>
>
I think we miss the point Heinlein was trying to make with Starship
Troopers.
Heinlein wasn't seriously advocating a system in which only military
veterans, any more than he was proposing a new religion by writing Stranger
in a Strange Land.
Heinlein wanted us to think about personal responsibility as it relates to
the government we deserve.
--
William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com and
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19277
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:36:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Draft and voting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"William B. Dennis 2nd" wrote:
> William J. Keaton <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:3b15e4e3.0@news.sff.net...
> >
> > "ddavitt" <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
> > >
> > > I was thinking about that recently...what do you suppose would have
> > > happened to that society if the Bugs had been on the verge of
> > > invading/winning? Do you think they would have abandoned their
> principles
> > > and instituted a draft?snip
> >
>
> I think we miss the point Heinlein was trying to make with Starship
> Troopers.
> Heinlein wasn't seriously advocating a system in which only military
> veterans, any more than he was proposing a new religion by writing Stranger
> in a Strange Land.
>
> Heinlein wanted us to think about personal responsibility as it relates to
> the government we deserve.
>
No, you're missing the start of the thread :-) We had a period of doldrums and
were just throwing out possible topics.
I think we can discuss a hypothetical ST alternative scenario and still be aware
of what you so rightly point out.
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19278
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:23:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Draft and voting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:3B2FC5D2.C0721185@netcom.ca...
> "William B. Dennis 2nd" wrote:
>
> > William J. Keaton <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> > news:3b15e4e3.0@news.sff.net...
> > >
> > > "ddavitt" <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
> > > >
> > > > I was thinking about that recently...what do you suppose would have
> > > > happened to that society if the Bugs had been on the verge of
> > > > invading/winning? Do you think they would have abandoned their
> > principles
> > > > and instituted a draft?snip
> > >
> >
> > I think we miss the point Heinlein was trying to make with Starship
> > Troopers.
> > Heinlein wasn't seriously advocating a system in which only military
> > veterans, any more than he was proposing a new religion by writing
Stranger
> > in a Strange Land.
> >
> > Heinlein wanted us to think about personal responsibility as it relates
to
> > the government we deserve.
> >
>
> No, you're missing the start of the thread :-)
It wouldn't be the first time. ;-)
We had a period of doldrums and
> were just throwing out possible topics.
> I think we can discuss a hypothetical ST alternative scenario and still be
aware
> of what you so rightly point out.
>
> Jane
>
>
> --
> http://www.heinleinsociety.org
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19279
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:56:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Draft and voting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
William B. Dennis 2nd <dwilliam16@home.com> wrote in message
news:3b2fd116.0@news.sff.net...
>
> ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
> news:3B2FC5D2.C0721185@netcom.ca...
> > "William B. Dennis 2nd" wrote:
> >
> > > William J. Keaton <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> > > news:3b15e4e3.0@news.sff.net...
> > > >
> > > > "ddavitt" <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
> > > > >
> > > > > I was thinking about that recently...what do you suppose would
have
> > > > > happened to that society if the Bugs had been on the verge of
> > > > > invading/winning? Do you think they would have abandoned their
> > > principles
> > > > > and instituted a draft?snip
> > > >
> > >
> > > I think we miss the point Heinlein was trying to make with Starship
> > > Troopers.
> > > Heinlein wasn't seriously advocating a system in which only military
> > > veterans, any more than he was proposing a new religion by writing
> Stranger
> > > in a Strange Land.
> > >
> > > Heinlein wanted us to think about personal responsibility as it
relates
> to
> > > the government we deserve.
> > >
> >
> > No, you're missing the start of the thread :-)
>
> It wouldn't be the first time. ;-)
>
>
>
>
> We had a period of doldrums and
> > were just throwing out possible topics.
> > I think we can discuss a hypothetical ST alternative scenario and still
be
> aware
> > of what you so rightly point out.
> >
Would the society of Starship Troopers resort to a draft as a last resort?
Maybe. But that would mean that the all voluntary military had failed.
I don't thank that a society that MUST resort to a draft deserves to
succeed.
Someone pointed out earlier that even in the most dire situations, there are
some men who simply will not serve. They either refuse to believe there is a
threat, or continue to believe that protection form hostile forces is a job
for someone else to perform, the government or the "they" (from "they ought
to do something about that") would somehow fix the problem for them,
I think this is one of the things Heinlein was trying to say when he wrote
the book in the first place. It was during a time when the population was
urging a ban on certain types of nuclear tests. Heinlein believed people had
forgotten that they have a responsibility for their own national defense,
and that they somehow believed that the "they" would be protected from the
USSR.
Heinlein believed that voters divorced from a sense of personal
responsibility, who saw government as remote presence and a grantor of all
good things, would look at a test ban treaty as a good thing because they
could not foresee the consequences.
But voters with a sense of responsibility and duty and who know war is the
failure of diplomacy would be willing to put up with the negative effects of
such testing in order to avoid war and disaster.
--
William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com and
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19280
Article no longer available
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19281
From: Audrey Gifford <agifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 17:49:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Strikes me as just fine. It is not a moral axiom that only the poor can go
into space, and the more rich people who go along for the ride the more money to
fund the basic research (and the more incentive to fund the basic research) for
people who are qualified and who dare to risk everything to go.
I am under the impression that there is only one man at NASA with a huge ego who
decides who goes and who stays - and his decisions are often as not political.
Is that supposed to be better than the letting the rich pay a fortune to endure
extensive training to be a fly on the wall?
Odds are there won't be a chance for people in my profession to go to space in
my lifetime no matter how good I am at what I do. It is possible the rookies I
am training now will perhaps train a third generation who might see space if we
have a major committment to it - but I doubt it. The people who branch off into
AI may see it sooner.
It doesn't matter how we get there or pays for it except in the very short run.
What matters is that as many people as possible(governments and individuals)
pay for it to get us all there in the long run.
Take care, Audrey
Shane Glaseman wrote:
> You mean, because they shouldn't have done so?
>
> Or because *we* should have done it long ago?
>
> Shane
>
> "William B. Dennis 2nd" wrote:
> >
> > It is a sorry state of affairs that a nation barely freed from communism
> > would open outer space to a commercial tourism.
> >
> > --
> > William B. Dennis 2nd
> > http://billscontent.tripod.com and
> > http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
> >
> > James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
> > news:3AEA5A52.A0A20CBE@rcsis.com...
> > >
> > > "The idea that any rich man could just lay cash on the line and _go_ was
> > > more than I could stand."
> > >
> > > Damn you, Dennis Tito.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > | James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
> > > | See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19282
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Jun 2001 20:03:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Oh, I am completely in favor of opening space for commercial purposes.
Yoy can't tell me that there are people who would not pay to go into space
just to be able to say they went! If I had Dennis Tito's money, I sure as
Hell would go.
NASA doesn't want space commercialized because then these lard-assed desk
jockies would lose their power.
Audrey Gifford <agifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3B2FF304.5738A850@rcsis.com...
> Strikes me as just fine. It is not a moral axiom that only the poor can
go
> into space, and the more rich people who go along for the ride the more
money to
> fund the basic research (and the more incentive to fund the basic
research) for
> people who are qualified and who dare to risk everything to go.
>
> I am under the impression that there is only one man at NASA with a huge
ego who
> decides who goes and who stays - and his decisions are often as not
political.
> Is that supposed to be better than the letting the rich pay a fortune to
endure
> extensive training to be a fly on the wall?
>
> Odds are there won't be a chance for people in my profession to go to
space in
> my lifetime no matter how good I am at what I do. It is possible the
rookies I
> am training now will perhaps train a third generation who might see space
if we
> have a major committment to it - but I doubt it. The people who branch off
into
> AI may see it sooner.
>
> It doesn't matter how we get there or pays for it except in the very short
run.
> What matters is that as many people as possible(governments and
individuals)
> pay for it to get us all there in the long run.
>
> Take care, Audrey
>
>
>
> Shane Glaseman wrote:
>
> > You mean, because they shouldn't have done so?
> >
> > Or because *we* should have done it long ago?
> >
> > Shane
> >
> > "William B. Dennis 2nd" wrote:
> > >
> > > It is a sorry state of affairs that a nation barely freed from
communism
> > > would open outer space to a commercial tourism.
> > >
> > > --
> > > William B. Dennis 2nd
> > > http://billscontent.tripod.com and
> > > http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
> > >
> > > James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
> > > news:3AEA5A52.A0A20CBE@rcsis.com...
> > > >
> > > > "The idea that any rich man could just lay cash on the line and _go_
was
> > > > more than I could stand."
> > > >
> > > > Damn you, Dennis Tito.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > >
> > > > | James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com
|
> > > > | See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more
|
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19283
From: webnews@sff.net
Date: 20 Jun 2001 16:43:27 GMT
Subject: SpamGuard
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
One or more articles in this newsgroup have been cancelled by the sysops
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------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19284
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 09:59:43 -0700
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3B2B9E2C.1E0300AD@aol.com...
> Filksinger wrote:
>
> > Suppose a man known to be carrying firearms, and your personal enemy,
walks
> > near you with his hands completely concealed by a poncho such that it is
> > quite possible that he is pointing a gun at you at this very moment.
What,
> > if anything, can you do about it? Different legal opinions will give you
> > different answers, as will different laws.
> >
> > Filksinger
>
> Filksinger--
>
> > Amendment IV
>
> > The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses,
> > papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and
> > seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue,
> > but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and
> > particularly describing the place to be searched, and the
> > persons or things to be seized.
I meant to review that and retype it when my medication wore off. I forgot.
Of course that is in the Constitution; I even remember which Amendment. What
I think I meant (I'm rather fuzzy about it), is that what is "unreasonable"
and what is "probable cause" is subject to interpretation and is not in the
Constitution.
> It seems to me to be pretty clear The ability to commit a crime
does not
> constitute a crime. Where is probably cause? You are in effect asking
him to
> prove his innocence, which to me it not justified at all. I consider this
> reasoning much more straightforward than for example, flag burning as a
form of
> free speech. So you are paranoid. That does not give you the right to
trample
> on mine.
No, the ability to commit a crime does not constitute a crime. However, the
wording of the above is rather vague in many ways. If someone owns a 10
megaton nuclear weapon, stored somewhere safely in a mine in the middle of
100,000 acres of land, and he is suspected of moving the weapon next to a
nearby city at the edge of the property and arming it, what is required
before the search is "unreasonable"? What about if he is in my store with
his hands in his poncho; at what point, exactly, is it "unreasonable" to
assume he has a gun in his hand, or is reaching for it? When, exactly, do I
have probable cause?
What is "unreasonable" and "probable cause" is completely undefined in the
Constitution, and very much a matter of interpretation. You and I might
agree quite a bit that something is not "probable cause" and yet a
reasonable court might disagree.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19285
From: lemmen@saxonmtg.com
Date: 20 Jun 2001 17:01:03 GMT
Subject: Bookbinders Dinner at MilPhilCon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
After communicating with several people, I have accepted the task of collecting
participants names for a proposed dinner of Heinlein fans who will be in
Philly for the convention over Labor Day Weekend. The proposed location
is Bookbinders, an upscale well know restaurant. Proposed date is Saturday
the 1st at 7:30 pm. If you would like to attend, please email me at lemmen@saxonmtg.com
with your information so we may secure a reservation for our party.
TIA,
Paul H. Lemmen
Bloc Sprao Agath
No Go Maci
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19286
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 14:34:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"William B. Dennis 2nd" wrote:
> It is a sorry state of affairs that a nation barely freed from communism
> would open outer space to a commercial tourism.
>
> --
> William B. Dennis 2nd
>
Welcome, Dennis.
Somebody's got to be first -- and the price has got to come down. It's
ironic that Russia is the first one, but breaking the monopoly of governments
on space travel is something that needs to happen.
But unless we get some long life treatments, I am going to be too old.
Aside -- Hart Intercivic, the company directly owning my patent rights,
has cut a deal with Dell Computer so as to have the manufacturing muscle to
produce as many voting machines as they are expecting to sell. Maybe I can be
tourist #2?
--
<<Big Charlie>>
Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19287
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 15:14:04 -0500
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
>
> What is "unreasonable" and "probable cause" is completely undefined in the
> Constitution, and very much a matter of interpretation. You and I might
> agree quite a bit that something is not "probable cause" and yet a
> reasonable court might disagree.
>
> Filksinger
Filksinger --
We disagree here, then. Without evidence of criminal intent there is IMHO
no probable cause. Searches are to gather evidence; convictions require a
trial. If it makes you uncomfortable knowing that in my basement I have an
atomic bomb, an Uzi, a crossbow or a kitchen knife, absent evidence of evil
intent, that is your problem; not mine.
I don't think it is a stretch to say that "probable cause" must include
intent to commit a crime.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19288
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:39:45 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3B30FAE0.6CF4A3A0@aol.com...
> "William B. Dennis 2nd" wrote:
>
> > It is a sorry state of affairs that a nation barely freed from communism
> > would open outer space to a commercial tourism.
> >
> > --
> > William B. Dennis 2nd
> >
>
> Welcome, Dennis.
>
> Somebody's got to be first -- and the price has got to come down.
It's
> ironic that Russia is the first one, but breaking the monopoly of
governments
> on space travel is something that needs to happen.
>
> But unless we get some long life treatments, I am going to be too
old.
>
> Aside -- Hart Intercivic, the company directly owning my patent
rights,
> has cut a deal with Dell Computer so as to have the manufacturing muscle
to
> produce as many voting machines as they are expecting to sell. Maybe I
can be
> tourist #2?
Call me Bill or William. My LAST name is Dennis.
Here in Illinois, the city of Peoria uses a system that appears to be unique
in this part of the state. Ballots are a large letter-sized card. The voter
uses a marker to connect the points of two arrows, essentially drawing a
line through the name of the candidate. The cards are then read by an
optical sheetfed scanner. The vote totals are available almost instantly.
No chads!
Are these voting machines of which you speak as simple as this?
--
William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com and
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19289
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 16:45:33 -0500
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3B31040C.30EDC6F0@aol.com...
> Filksinger wrote:
>
> >
> > What is "unreasonable" and "probable cause" is completely undefined in
the
> > Constitution, and very much a matter of interpretation. You and I might
> > agree quite a bit that something is not "probable cause" and yet a
> > reasonable court might disagree.
> >
> > Filksinger
>
> Filksinger --
>
> We disagree here, then. Without evidence of criminal intent there is
IMHO
> no probable cause. Searches are to gather evidence; convictions require a
> trial. If it makes you uncomfortable knowing that in my basement I have
an
> atomic bomb, an Uzi, a crossbow or a kitchen knife, absent evidence of
evil
> intent, that is your problem; not mine.
>
> I don't think it is a stretch to say that "probable cause" must
include
> intent to commit a crime.
>
Intent cannot be proven in a court of law, although judges and prosecutors
like to pretend it can. The only way to determine someone's intent is
through mental telepathy. We can infer from facts what someone's intent is,
but we cannot establish it with absolute certainty.
This is what is wrong with gun laws. They would restrict gun ownership for
all because of the evil intent of a very few. It is the same with hate
crimes. How do you prove person A killed person B because person has a
racial, religious or sexual prejudice against person B? You cant because no
one knows what is in the mind or another.
--
William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com and
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19290
From: Dean White" <WhiteD@telepath.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2001 18:39:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com> wrote in message
news:3b31184a.0@news.sff.net...
>
>
> Call me Bill or William. My LAST name is Dennis.
>
> Here in Illinois, the city of Peoria uses a system that appears to be
unique
> in this part of the state. Ballots are a large letter-sized card. The
voter
> uses a marker to connect the points of two arrows, essentially drawing a
> line through the name of the candidate. The cards are then read by an
> optical sheetfed scanner. The vote totals are available almost
instantly.
>
> No chads!
>
> Are these voting machines of which you speak as simple as this?
>
>
> --
> William B. Dennis 2nd
> http://billscontent.tripod.com and
> http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
>
>
>
In Oklahoma ALL voting is done with this type of optical scanner style
reader and has been this way since the early seventies. It still bugs
me that Florida's shoddy voting system screwed up the last presidential
election. And that the Supreme Court at the instigation of the Republican
party selected Bush Jr. for president in direct violation of the
Constitution.
--
Dean White
www.DeanWhite.net
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19291
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 01:45:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:16:12 -0500, "William B. Dennis 2nd"
<dwilliam16@home.com> wrote:
>It is a sorry state of affairs that a nation barely freed from communism
>would open outer space to a commercial tourism.
>
>--
>William B. Dennis 2nd
>http://billscontent.tripod.com and
>http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
Hi Bill, glad to see to made it here.... And that's just the kind of
statement that gets things going around here. ;) Welcome!
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19292
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 01:45:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Bookbinders Dinner at MilPhilCon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On 20 Jun 2001 17:01:03 GMT, lemmen@saxonmtg.com wrote:
>Paul H. Lemmen
>Bloc Sprao Agath
>No Go Maci
Paul, I may have missed something, but welcome to the HF! Ever notice
how new posters come in batches? Must be the "getting up of courage"
or something. <VBG>
What's your .sig mean? I'm guessing Gaelic or something? Forgive my
ignorance, don't have time to make a better guess....
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19293
From: lemmen@saxonmtg.com
Date: 21 Jun 2001 11:56:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Bookbinders Dinner at MilPhilCon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Bloc Sprao Agath, No Go Maci liberally translated from the Gaelic in use
in Donegal in the early fifties (when I was first in school and could snicker
at the "proper" usage of modern Gaelic) means "Have fun or get out"
Slainte,
Paul H. Lemmen
Bloc Sprao Agath
No Go Maci
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19294
From: Eli Hestermann <Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 08:37:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Dean White wrote:
>
> In Oklahoma ALL voting is done with this type of optical scanner style
> reader and has been this way since the early seventies. It still bugs
> me that Florida's shoddy voting system screwed up the last presidential
> election. And that the Supreme Court at the instigation of the Republican
> party selected Bush Jr. for president in direct violation of the
> Constitution.
Whoa, but that's an awfully slanted view of what happened. You must be the
one person who still enjoys the sour grapes rag that Doonesbury has become.
The good news: I'm leaving for a conference in Montana tomorrow and will
therefore miss the flamewar this post was apparently trolling for.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa." -Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19295
From: lemmen@saxonmtg.com
Date: 21 Jun 2001 14:57:58 GMT
Subject: Re: Bookbinders Dinner at MilPhilCon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
This just in:
To: Paul Lemmen
Thank you for your dining request. For large group dining, we forward
the requests to the Banquet & Catering Manager of the restaurant so
that they can more effectively serve you.
Sam from Old Original Bookbinders will be contacting you directly to
handle the arrangements for your event for a party of 20.
Thank you for using SavvyDiner.com!
Lisa
reserve@savvydiner.com
I will keep all interested parties posted on progress!
Slainte,
Paul H. Lemmen
Bloc Sprao Agath
No Go Maci
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19296
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:22:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Eli Hestermann <Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:3B31EA84.CC766C1A@dfci.harvard.edu...
> Dean White wrote:
>
> >
> > In Oklahoma ALL voting is done with this type of optical scanner style
> > reader and has been this way since the early seventies. It still bugs
> > me that Florida's shoddy voting system screwed up the last presidential
> > election. And that the Supreme Court at the instigation of the
Republican
> > party selected Bush Jr. for president in direct violation of the
> > Constitution.
>
> Whoa, but that's an awfully slanted view of what happened. You must be
the
> one person who still enjoys the sour grapes rag that Doonesbury has
become.
>
> The good news: I'm leaving for a conference in Montana tomorrow and will
> therefore miss the flamewar this post was apparently trolling for.
Chicken.
--
William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com and
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19297
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 10:24:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Eli Hestermann <Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu> wrote in message
news:3B31EA84.CC766C1A@dfci.harvard.edu...
> Dean White wrote:
>
> >
> > In Oklahoma ALL voting is done with this type of optical scanner style
> > reader and has been this way since the early seventies. It still bugs
> > me that Florida's shoddy voting system screwed up the last presidential
> > election. And that the Supreme Court at the instigation of the
Republican
> > party selected Bush Jr. for president in direct violation of the
> > Constitution.
>
> Whoa, but that's an awfully slanted view of what happened. You must be
the
> one person who still enjoys the sour grapes rag that Doonesbury has
become.
>
> The good news: I'm leaving for a conference in Montana tomorrow and will
> therefore miss the flamewar this post was apparently trolling for.
Actually, both sides have a lot to be ashamed about regarding the last
election.
Libertarians all over the country have been victims of all sorts of
political trickery (legal and illegal) designed to keep them off ballots.
--
William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com and
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19298
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:32:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Bookbinders Dinner at MilPhilCon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
<lemmen@saxonmtg.com> wrote in message news:3b30d6cf.0@news.sff.net...
> After communicating with several people, I have accepted the task of
collecting
> participants names for a proposed dinner of Heinlein fans who will be in
> Philly for the convention over Labor Day Weekend. The proposed location
> is Bookbinders, an upscale well know restaurant.
Have you considered that Bookbinder's may be a little too upscale for the
average SF fan, not to mention that I rarely take a coat/tie to a con!?
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19299
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 12:41:40 -0400
Subject: Re: hi
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com> wrote in message
news:3b2fac4b.0@news.sff.net...
>
> William J. Keaton <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:3b298f3a.0@news.sff.net...
> >
> > "Vesta" <mmsportal@alltel.net> wrote in message
> > news:3b26f68f.0@news.sff.net...
> > > I just wanted to introduce myself. I'm new to forums & such & wasn't
> sure
> > > just what to do. I have been reading the works of R.A.H. for about 15
> > years
> >
> > That name sounds somewhat familiar. Did you hang out in any of the other
> > Heinlein Forums in the past?
> >
> > If I'm confused, it won't be the first time! In any case, welcome!
> >
> > But I must admit that there was a certain (but different) sense to the
> > ending of Podkayne of Mars, with Poddy dying. Better or worse depends on
> > your point of view, a lot can be learned inthe lesson of Poddy's death
> that
> > does not come through as strongly when she lives.
> >
>
> Despite Heinlein's intention that Poddy die, she still ends up alive and
> well at the party at the end of The Number of the Beast.
>
Only because Gay Deceiver and company snatched her! (Yes I know, it wasn't
in the book, but how else did all those people get there, if not via the
Burroughs-Carter Space Time Twister (TM) (C) (Patent Pending)??)
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19300
From: lemmen@saxonmtg.com
Date: 21 Jun 2001 17:13:29 GMT
Subject: Re: Bookbinders Dinner at MilPhilCon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
'Twas considered. And due to several people desiring said location, plans
have moved forward. As of today, there is a reservation for 20 (sans jacket
and tie...private room) average meal cost without adult beverages is $45...some
meals are available for as little as $19.95.
This is not intended as the ONLY meal or get-together that would be planned.
I personally would like to host a get-together on Friday the 31st at The
Bards (an Irish Pub) about 10ish for adult beverages. The other time possible
for this would be Sunday afternoon for a luncheon at the Bards (with live
traditional Irish music). I would like to keep as many options open as possible.
I believe that Bookbinders was originally floated as a dinner spot by several
WEB Griffin fans.
Slainte,
Paul H. Lemmen
Bloc Sprao Agath
No Go Maci
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19301
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:05:14 -0700
Subject: Re: Bookbinders Dinner at MilPhilCon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
lemmen@saxonmtg.com wrote:
> 'Twas considered. And due to several people desiring said location, plans
> have moved forward. As of today, there is a reservation for 20 (sans jacket
> and tie...private room) average meal cost without adult beverages is $45...some
> meals are available for as little as $19.95.
> This is not intended as the ONLY meal or get-together that would be planned.
> I personally would like to host a get-together on Friday the 31st at The
> Bards (an Irish Pub) about 10ish for adult beverages. The other time possible
> for this would be Sunday afternoon for a luncheon at the Bards (with live
> traditional Irish music). I would like to keep as many options open as possible.
General discussion, just to add to the confusion...
Last year in Chicago, I hosted what was nominally termed the First
Annual Heinlein Dinner. The intent was to host or co-host a similar
dinner at each coming Worldcon. The AHD was/is not an open-invitation
gathering, but a more exclusive affair.
I'm now a bit torn as to whether to throw my lot in with the HS, or
continue with a separate plan. Dinner on Saturday evening pretty well
eats up the one available night, since Friday night is arrival night (or
before arrival) for some, Sunday night is the Hugo awards (and I, uh,
have plans), and Monday night everyone is flying home.
Without getting into a ridiculous Futurians-era faction fight, I'd like
to keep the AHD separate from the HS dinner... even if we end up
combining the function this year. Or perhaps I'll schedule the AHD for
early Sunday evening, even though that risks missing some con events.
Those who know what I'm talking about and/or are attending either dinner
are invited (perhaps via email?) to suggest suggestions and resolve
resolutions.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19302
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:52:16 -0700
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3B31040C.30EDC6F0@aol.com...
> Filksinger --
>
> We disagree here, then. Without evidence of criminal intent there is
IMHO
> no probable cause.
I didn't say there was. I said that what defines "evidence of criminal
intent" is subject to interpretation.
> Searches are to gather evidence; convictions require a
> trial. If it makes you uncomfortable knowing that in my basement I have
an
> atomic bomb, an Uzi, a crossbow or a kitchen knife, absent evidence of
evil
> intent, that is your problem; not mine.
If you have an Uzi, or a crossbow, or a kitchen knife, I agree. If you have
an atomic bomb in your basement, I am in its blast radius, and it is just as
much a direct threat to me as a gun pointed at me. I would not allow that
with a gun, and I will not make special exceptions for nuclear weapons.
> I don't think it is a stretch to say that "probable cause" must
include
> intent to commit a crime.
I do. In fact, it is utterly inappropriate as a criteria.
How can you possibly prove intent? Recorded phone conversations about plans
to commit a crime? No, because you'd need to prove intent before you
recorded the conversation. Read letters, or confidential documents, or his
diary? No, because you wouldn't have any of those, either. Search warrants
and the like are for the purpose of collecting evidence of "intent", not
something for which you prove intent first.
Intent can never be truly proven without telepathy. When it is used in
court, it is _never_ used as a criteria for warrants, _only_ as evidence of
a crime. It is, in fact, very difficult to show during a trial, with a large
body of evidence collected for just that purpose, including evidence
collected during searches. Requiring it to be shown before a search was
allowed would eliminate 99.9% of all searches, wire taps, document seizures,
etc.
Frankly, I think all of the above is probably too common today. But I am not
so paranoid that I think that 99.9% of all warrants should be eliminated.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19303
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 20:53:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Bookbinders Dinner at MilPhilCon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
James: I have a good idea of what you are talking about and I
agree with your sentiments when you wrote:
>
>Those who know what I'm talking about and/or are attending either dinner
>are invited (perhaps via email?) to suggest suggestions and resolve
>resolutions.
No offence meant to Paul Lemmen's invitation, but when I read it
here (HF) I thought: whozat?
As a relative newcomer with less than seven years on the Forum, I
wondered how I could have missed so much. (Thanks, JT: I thought I
had missed an intro <g>).
I also agree with James Gifford's hint of going to a less costly
place as WJake mentioned. Just because a few people could afford
Old Original Bookbinders (or a counterfeit) doesn't make it a good
place for friends to gather for the second AHD.
Ed J (2 cents worth <g>)
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 11:05:14 -0700, James Gifford
<jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote:
>lemmen@saxonmtg.com wrote:
>> 'Twas considered. And due to several people desiring said location, plans
>> have moved forward. As of today, there is a reservation for 20 (sans jacket
>> and tie...private room) average meal cost without adult beverages is $45...some
>> meals are available for as little as $19.95.
>> This is not intended as the ONLY meal or get-together that would be planned.
>> I personally would like to host a get-together on Friday the 31st at The
>> Bards (an Irish Pub) about 10ish for adult beverages. The other time possible
>> for this would be Sunday afternoon for a luncheon at the Bards (with live
>> traditional Irish music). I would like to keep as many options open as possible.
>
>General discussion, just to add to the confusion...
>
>Last year in Chicago, I hosted what was nominally termed the First
>Annual Heinlein Dinner. The intent was to host or co-host a similar
>dinner at each coming Worldcon. The AHD was/is not an open-invitation
>gathering, but a more exclusive affair.
>
>I'm now a bit torn as to whether to throw my lot in with the HS, or
>continue with a separate plan. Dinner on Saturday evening pretty well
>eats up the one available night, since Friday night is arrival night (or
>before arrival) for some, Sunday night is the Hugo awards (and I, uh,
>have plans), and Monday night everyone is flying home.
>
>Without getting into a ridiculous Futurians-era faction fight, I'd like
>to keep the AHD separate from the HS dinner... even if we end up
>combining the function this year. Or perhaps I'll schedule the AHD for
>early Sunday evening, even though that risks missing some con events.
>
>Those who know what I'm talking about and/or are attending either dinner
>are invited (perhaps via email?) to suggest suggestions and resolve
>resolutions.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19304
From: John Teehan <tumble@ids.net>
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:23:25 -0400
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
You're not going to see serious exploitation of space or the possibility
of Man's committed exploration until spaceflight gets out of the hands
of bureaucrats and into the hands of people willign to take some risks.
Dennis Tito is a hero. Hell, Pizza Hut is a hero. We _need_ more people
interested in investing space. If the Russians are willing to step in
where the Americans fear to tread, then shame on us. Good for them.
NASA's whining about Tito's visit to the space station disgusted me. If
NASA was in charge of America's western expansion, we'd still be crowded
east of the Mississippi.
Does anyone recall a story in _Analog_ about a year ago that told of the
first manned mission to Mars? (Actually, a woman explorer) NASA
administrators fretted about being beaten to Mars by a Hollywood
director who took advantage of commercial companies (and sponsorship)
and funded the entire project for a hundredth of NASA's projected
mission cost.
The first flag planted on Mars by a human being was from New Zealand.
Sorry if all this has been said before. I've missed some of the earlier
parts of this thread. I've just had three cups of coffee, so waiting for
my blood pressure to level. ^_^
--John Teehan
JT wrote:
>
> On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:16:12 -0500, "William B. Dennis 2nd"
> <dwilliam16@home.com> wrote:
> >It is a sorry state of affairs that a nation barely freed from communism
> >would open outer space to a commercial tourism.
> >
> >--
> >William B. Dennis 2nd
> >http://billscontent.tripod.com and
> >http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
>
> Hi Bill, glad to see to made it here.... And that's just the kind of
> statement that gets things going around here. ;) Welcome!
>
> JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19305
From: Audrey Gifford <agifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:15:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Well Hi BC ---
I'm getting too old too. But we found out today that we were approved for the rate
increase, so maybe in 20 years if they let old ladies on - the kids will all be
grown by then .. will have to flip Jim for it, though
Charles Graft wrote:
> "William B. Dennis 2nd" wrote:
>
> > It is a sorry state of affairs that a nation barely freed from communism
> > would open outer space to a commercial tourism.
> >
> > --
> > William B. Dennis 2nd
> >
>
> Welcome, Dennis.
>
> Somebody's got to be first -- and the price has got to come down. It's
> ironic that Russia is the first one, but breaking the monopoly of governments
> on space travel is something that needs to happen.
>
> But unless we get some long life treatments, I am going to be too old.
>
> Aside -- Hart Intercivic, the company directly owning my patent rights,
> has cut a deal with Dell Computer so as to have the manufacturing muscle to
> produce as many voting machines as they are expecting to sell. Maybe I can be
> tourist #2?
>
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19306
From: Audrey Gifford <agifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:15:10 -0700
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Well Hi BC ---
I'm getting too old too. But we found out today that we were approved for the rate
increase, so maybe in 20 years if they let old ladies on - the kids will all be
grown by then .. will have to flip Jim for it, though
Charles Graft wrote:
> "William B. Dennis 2nd" wrote:
>
> > It is a sorry state of affairs that a nation barely freed from communism
> > would open outer space to a commercial tourism.
> >
> > --
> > William B. Dennis 2nd
> >
>
> Welcome, Dennis.
>
> Somebody's got to be first -- and the price has got to come down. It's
> ironic that Russia is the first one, but breaking the monopoly of governments
> on space travel is something that needs to happen.
>
> But unless we get some long life treatments, I am going to be too old.
>
> Aside -- Hart Intercivic, the company directly owning my patent rights,
> has cut a deal with Dell Computer so as to have the manufacturing muscle to
> produce as many voting machines as they are expecting to sell. Maybe I can be
> tourist #2?
>
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19307
From: lemmen@saxonmtg.com
Date: 23 Jun 2001 13:48:13 GMT
Subject: Introduction
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
P'raps I have been precipitous in posting the Bookbinders dinner thread
without introducing myself.
My name is Paul H. Lemmen and I am a very new reader of this newsgroup,
having been steered here by David Silver.
I am an enjoyer of the works of Robert A. Heinlein, having been introduced
to his works about 15 years ago whilst a guest of Her Majesties legal system.
Without going into too much (boring) detail, I am a former Officer Commanding
of a brigade of the Provisional Irish Republican Army, now resident in the
USA (in fact, a recent citizen of the US) with a name and history not my
own. I have been a poster and lurker in the alt.fan.heinlein newsgroup for
several years and have enjoyed many conversations regarding the works of
the master. It is from this newsgroup (and 2 others, alt.books.tom-clancy
and sci.military.naval) that I have been acquainted with a number of posters.
I have even met several in person. Recently, there were several posts in
the AFH newsgroup about the MilPhilCon and a proposal to have dinner at
Bookbinders (following a lead from the works of WEB Griffin). As I am going
to be in Philidelphia I "volunteered" to assist by collecting the names
of folks from the 3 newsgroups previously mentioned who would be interested
in having dinner there, and securing the reservation. Hence, the information
was posted to the newsgroups. David Silver suggested to me to post the information
here, as there was some discussion of a dinner in this forum. Now, the confusion!
Who is this old git? Why an expensive restaurant? Open invitation or by
invite only? Tis just a dinner people! If you would like to go to an expensive
restaurant cited by WEB Griffin and share supper with people you may not
have met? Would you like to put faces to names? Then come. If not, don't
come. 'Tis not an "official" dinner, but a collection of disparate people
with a desire to have a good meal and put faces to names of posters. No
exclusion intended and inclusion has no other meaning. I am honoured that
Mr. Gifford has accepted the offer to join us for dinner, but in no way
is this dinner intended to supplant or in any other way impinge upon the
Annual Heinlein Dinner he hosts. If Mr. Gifford chooses to incorporate the
AHD into our wee get-together, 'tis his right to do so. And if he chooses
not to, we feel no slight!
I hope that I have not stepped on anyones toes, and in the event I have,
I apologise, this was not my intent!
Slainte,
Paul H. Lemmen
Bloc Sprao Agath
No Go Maci
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19308
From: hf_jai@prodigy.net (Jai Johnson-Pickett)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 14:14:43 GMT
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:52:16 -0700, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>> I don't think it is a stretch to say that "probable cause" must
>include
>> intent to commit a crime.
>
>I do. In fact, it is utterly inappropriate as a criteria.
>
>How can you possibly prove intent? ...
"Probably cause" may or may not include "intent," but intent never
needs to be "proven." As you said, intent cannot be proven without
telepathy. Even when it is proven (in court) that someone committed a
crime, there is still sometimes a question of intent. But for
probable cause, you either need to show some indication, some
"probably," that someone either has committed a crime, intentionally
or not, or that he/she intends to.
However, if all you end up with is intent, and no evidence that a
crime, any crime, has already been committed, what can you do? Nada.
The law does allow you (assuming you are police) to search for one
thing, and if you happen to find evidence of another, ah well, you CAN
prosecute the second crime. This happens all the time. It's only if
the defense can convince a judge that the second thing was what was
really what the police "intended" (there's that word again) to find,
but they could only get authorization for the search on the first
thing, that the search and its findings may get thrown out.
I may be wrong (this is sort of based on classes the JAG officers gave
us many years ago about authorized room searches in the barracks), but
I think that evidence of the capability to commit a crime can
constitute probable cause, at least if combined with an indication of
intent. For example, someone tells me, as a police officer, that John
Doe is planning to rob a bank and has a room full of drilling
equipment, explosives, or whatever else it might take to rob a bank.
I believe I could get a judge to authorize a search and seize that
equipment, even tho it's not specifically illegal to own that stuff.
However, if I cannot later prove that John Doe has robbed a bank in
the past, or committed some other crime, I can't do anything further
and will have to give the stuff back. But again, if I happen to find
a stash of pot, or an illegal weapon, or any of a myriad of things,
while looking for bank robbing equipment, I can arrest John Doe for
its possession. From a police standpoint, if I find something else, I
have gotten Doe off the street for a while, even if not for the larger
crime (and longer sentence). If I don't find anything else, I've at
least let him know we're watching him, which might make him think
twice about that bank robbery.
Now, is the latter scenario in keeping with the spirit of the
Constitution? No, I don't think so. But I think it's what happens.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19309
From: dee" <ke4lfg@amsat.org>
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:53:32 -0500
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Jai Johnson-Pickett" <hf_jai@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3b349ab5.7060122@news.sff.net...
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:52:16 -0700, "Filksinger"
> <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>
> >> I don't think it is a stretch to say that "probable cause" must
> >include
> >> intent to commit a crime.
> >
> >I do. In fact, it is utterly inappropriate as a criteria.
Probable cause does not include intent to commit a crime, it is probable
cause to believe that a crime has been committed. The crime may have an
element of "intent."
> >How can you possibly prove intent? ...
>
> "Probably cause" may or may not include "intent," but intent never
> needs to be "proven." As you said, intent cannot be proven without
> telepathy. . . .
Actually, intent has to be proven in every conviction of a crime involving
specific intent. It is the difference between burglary and trespass, for
instance. Of course, I mean "prove" in the legal sense that there is
sufficient evidence to convince the trier of fact beyoond a reasonable
doubt. "intent, being a state of mind, is rarely susceptible of of direct
proof, but must ordinarily be inferred from the facts." That is, one
"intends" the natural consequences of his actions. If I walk up to John Doe
and shoot him in the heart, it would hardly be an effective defense to a
murder charge to assert that I did not "intend" to kill him. I doubt I will
convince a jury to convict me of manslaughter on this basis. No telepathy
involved.
> The law does allow you (assuming you are police) to search for one
> thing, and if you happen to find evidence of another, ah well, you CAN
> prosecute the second crime. This happens all the time. It's only if
> the defense can convince a judge that the second thing was what was
> really what the police "intended" (there's that word again) to find,
> but they could only get authorization for the search on the first
> thing, that the search and its findings may get thrown out.
>
> I may be wrong (this is sort of based on classes the JAG officers gave
> us many years ago about authorized room searches in the barracks), but
> I think that evidence of the capability to commit a crime can
> constitute probable cause, at least if combined with an indication of
> intent. For example, someone tells me, as a police officer, that John
> Doe is planning to rob a bank and has a room full of drilling
> equipment, explosives, or whatever else it might take to rob a bank.
> I believe I could get a judge to authorize a search and seize that
> equipment, even tho it's not specifically illegal to own that stuff.
I don't think you could, Jai. Correction, maybe you could find such a
judge, but I don't think it would hold up on appeal.
> Now, is the latter scenario in keeping with the spirit of the
> Constitution? No, I don't think so. But I think it's what happens.
Jai, I suspect that you may be mixing a little conspiracy law in with
probable cause. Conspiracy consists of the agreement to commit a crime,
combined with an overt act. The overt act may be a VERY small step in the
furtherance of the crime, and may not be criminal in itself.
--Dee2
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19310
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 13:15:17 -0400
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger: I hope that this 2 cents worth doesn't throw the
"nukes in the basement" thread off track. Would it simplify (or
drastically change things) if we discussed explosives other than
nuclear weapons? Recently put to death was a baby killer who used
55 gal. drums of fuel oil, etc. etc in a rented truck on the Alfred
P. Murrah building. Suppose Tim, your next door neighbor, had
pre-mixed twenty 55 gallon drums of xxxxxxx which was proved to be
able to destroy high-rise buildings. Whether or not this neighbor
was exercising his civil right to remain secure from search or
seizure is probably not what you are protesting. If he or his
concoction should prove to be unstable, he risks involving you and
your family in a catastrophe. Same as if you start to cut down a
tall tree in your yard that is leaning towards your neighbor's home,
does said neighbor not have any legal recourse against your foolish
acts? I, too support the right to bear arms. Including automatic
weapons stored safely at home. If you and the militia wan't to
store tanks and armored vehicles, how about allowing for an
ordinance forcing you to keep it secure from theft and to keeping it
from falling into criminal hands? Not in the back yard/basement.
I used to work and live where thermonuclear weapons were routinely
stored. The WSA (weapons storage area) was a series of underground
bunkers a mile or two from the nearest home or office. There was
plenty of security involved to prevent accidental or intentional
detonation. This was 14 miles from town on an Air Force base.
I didn't mind living that close; I would mind having a libertarian
neighbor with Mark 12, (2 mega-ton nominal yield) warheads in his
basement.
Ed J
On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:52:16 -0700, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
>news:3B31040C.30EDC6F0@aol.com...
>
>> Filksinger --
>>
>> We disagree here, then. Without evidence of criminal intent there is
>IMHO
>> no probable cause.
>
>I didn't say there was. I said that what defines "evidence of criminal
>intent" is subject to interpretation.
>
>> Searches are to gather evidence; convictions require a
>> trial. If it makes you uncomfortable knowing that in my basement I have
>an
>> atomic bomb, an Uzi, a crossbow or a kitchen knife, absent evidence of
>evil
>> intent, that is your problem; not mine.
>
>If you have an Uzi, or a crossbow, or a kitchen knife, I agree. If you have
>an atomic bomb in your basement, I am in its blast radius, and it is just as
>much a direct threat to me as a gun pointed at me. I would not allow that
>with a gun, and I will not make special exceptions for nuclear weapons.
>
>> I don't think it is a stretch to say that "probable cause" must
>include
>> intent to commit a crime.
>
>I do. In fact, it is utterly inappropriate as a criteria.
>
>How can you possibly prove intent? Recorded phone conversations about plans
>to commit a crime? No, because you'd need to prove intent before you
>recorded the conversation. Read letters, or confidential documents, or his
>diary? No, because you wouldn't have any of those, either. Search warrants
>and the like are for the purpose of collecting evidence of "intent", not
>something for which you prove intent first.
>
>Intent can never be truly proven without telepathy. When it is used in
>court, it is _never_ used as a criteria for warrants, _only_ as evidence of
>a crime. It is, in fact, very difficult to show during a trial, with a large
>body of evidence collected for just that purpose, including evidence
>collected during searches. Requiring it to be shown before a search was
>allowed would eliminate 99.9% of all searches, wire taps, document seizures,
>etc.
>
>Frankly, I think all of the above is probably too common today. But I am not
>so paranoid that I think that 99.9% of all warrants should be eliminated.
>
>Filksinger
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19311
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 21:17:15 GMT
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:23:25 -0400, John Teehan <tumble@ids.net>
wrote:
>You're not going to see serious exploitation of space or the possibility
>of Man's committed exploration until spaceflight gets out of the hands
>of bureaucrats and into the hands of people willign to take some risks.
Welcome to the HF, John. If you were so inclined, "JT"'s already
taken in these parts. <VBG>
I agree with your sentiments about spaceflight.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19312
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 21:17:15 GMT
Subject: Re: Introduction
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On 23 Jun 2001 13:48:13 GMT, lemmen@saxonmtg.com wrote:
>P'raps I have been precipitous in posting the Bookbinders dinner thread
>without introducing myself.
Eh, stuff happens. It's certainly clearer now! <G>
I don't have anything against a.f.h myself, but I don't read there
because the volume of noise on Usenet is too high in general. I never
make the AIM chats because they always slip my mind.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19313
From: Wayne H. Morgan" <morganwh@indy.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2001 23:10:46 -0500
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I haven't caught most of this discussion but would it interest anyone to know
that under recently (since 1995) enacted WMD (Weapons of Mass Destruction)
federal law, it's a crime to possess 4 _ounces_ of explosives (without a federal
permit)?
Also, if anyone cares, a search warrant has to specifically state what is being
sought and must state, at least in general, where the item(s) should be found.
If you are looking for guns or drugs upstairs and walk through the kitchen and
find a bomb, it may not necessarily be admissible in court. Then it depends upon
whether or not that was a direct route, whether the bomb was in plain sight or
hidden, etc.
Wayne
Ed Johnson wrote:
> Filksinger: I hope that this 2 cents worth doesn't throw the
> "nukes in the basement" thread off track. Would it simplify (or
> drastically change things) if we discussed explosives other than
> nuclear weapons? Recently put to death was a baby killer who used
> 55 gal. drums of fuel oil, etc. etc in a rented truck on the Alfred
> P. Murrah building. Suppose Tim, your next door neighbor, had
> pre-mixed twenty 55 gallon drums of xxxxxxx which was proved to be
> able to destroy high-rise buildings. Whether or not this neighbor
> was exercising his civil right to remain secure from search or
> seizure is probably not what you are protesting. If he or his
> concoction should prove to be unstable, he risks involving you and
> your family in a catastrophe. Same as if you start to cut down a
> tall tree in your yard that is leaning towards your neighbor's home,
> does said neighbor not have any legal recourse against your foolish
> acts? I, too support the right to bear arms. Including automatic
> weapons stored safely at home. If you and the militia wan't to
> store tanks and armored vehicles, how about allowing for an
> ordinance forcing you to keep it secure from theft and to keeping it
> from falling into criminal hands? Not in the back yard/basement.
>
> I used to work and live where thermonuclear weapons were routinely
> stored. The WSA (weapons storage area) was a series of underground
> bunkers a mile or two from the nearest home or office. There was
> plenty of security involved to prevent accidental or intentional
> detonation. This was 14 miles from town on an Air Force base.
> I didn't mind living that close; I would mind having a libertarian
> neighbor with Mark 12, (2 mega-ton nominal yield) warheads in his
> basement.
>
> Ed J
>
> On Thu, 21 Jun 2001 16:52:16 -0700, "Filksinger"
> <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>
> >"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
> >news:3B31040C.30EDC6F0@aol.com...
> >
> >> Filksinger --
> >>
> >> We disagree here, then. Without evidence of criminal intent there is
> >IMHO
> >> no probable cause.
> >
> >I didn't say there was. I said that what defines "evidence of criminal
> >intent" is subject to interpretation.
> >
> >> Searches are to gather evidence; convictions require a
> >> trial. If it makes you uncomfortable knowing that in my basement I have
> >an
> >> atomic bomb, an Uzi, a crossbow or a kitchen knife, absent evidence of
> >evil
> >> intent, that is your problem; not mine.
> >
> >If you have an Uzi, or a crossbow, or a kitchen knife, I agree. If you have
> >an atomic bomb in your basement, I am in its blast radius, and it is just as
> >much a direct threat to me as a gun pointed at me. I would not allow that
> >with a gun, and I will not make special exceptions for nuclear weapons.
> >
> >> I don't think it is a stretch to say that "probable cause" must
> >include
> >> intent to commit a crime.
> >
> >I do. In fact, it is utterly inappropriate as a criteria.
> >
> >How can you possibly prove intent? Recorded phone conversations about plans
> >to commit a crime? No, because you'd need to prove intent before you
> >recorded the conversation. Read letters, or confidential documents, or his
> >diary? No, because you wouldn't have any of those, either. Search warrants
> >and the like are for the purpose of collecting evidence of "intent", not
> >something for which you prove intent first.
> >
> >Intent can never be truly proven without telepathy. When it is used in
> >court, it is _never_ used as a criteria for warrants, _only_ as evidence of
> >a crime. It is, in fact, very difficult to show during a trial, with a large
> >body of evidence collected for just that purpose, including evidence
> >collected during searches. Requiring it to be shown before a search was
> >allowed would eliminate 99.9% of all searches, wire taps, document seizures,
> >etc.
> >
> >Frankly, I think all of the above is probably too common today. But I am not
> >so paranoid that I think that 99.9% of all warrants should be eliminated.
> >
> >Filksinger
> >
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19314
From: hf_jai@prodigy.net (Jai Johnson-Pickett)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:06:01 GMT
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:53:32 -0500, "dee" <ke4lfg@amsat.org> wrote:
>> The law does allow you (assuming you are police) to search for one
>> thing, and if you happen to find evidence of another, ah well, you CAN
>> prosecute the second crime. This happens all the time. It's only if
>> the defense can convince a judge that the second thing was what was
>> really what the police "intended" (there's that word again) to find,
>> but they could only get authorization for the search on the first
>> thing, that the search and its findings may get thrown out.
>>
>> I may be wrong (this is sort of based on classes the JAG officers gave
>> us many years ago about authorized room searches in the barracks), but
>> I think that evidence of the capability to commit a crime can
>> constitute probable cause, at least if combined with an indication of
>> intent. For example, someone tells me, as a police officer, that John
>> Doe is planning to rob a bank and has a room full of drilling
>> equipment, explosives, or whatever else it might take to rob a bank.
>> I believe I could get a judge to authorize a search and seize that
>> equipment, even tho it's not specifically illegal to own that stuff.
>
>I don't think you could, Jai. Correction, maybe you could find such a
>judge, but I don't think it would hold up on appeal.
>
>> Now, is the latter scenario in keeping with the spirit of the
>> Constitution? No, I don't think so. But I think it's what happens.
>
>Jai, I suspect that you may be mixing a little conspiracy law in with
>probable cause. Conspiracy consists of the agreement to commit a crime,
>combined with an overt act. The overt act may be a VERY small step in the
>furtherance of the crime, and may not be criminal in itself.
Perhaps, D2, or perhaps I'm confusing the differences inherent in
military law. Sometime in the late '70s, the Military Court of
Appeals decided that a barracks search was only legal if authorized by
a command authority (commander or his/her official representative),
acting in a judicial capacity (as opposed to an executive one). So we
all got classes in what constitutes probable cause. But even given
those constraints, a military commander still has certain perogatives
over the lives and living quarters of a soldier that, thank goodness,
the police and prosecutors do not have over citizens.
Or maybe I'm just mis-remembering. It has been over 20 years.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19315
From: dee" <ke4lfg@amsat.org>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 10:26:33 -0500
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Jai Johnson-Pickett" <hf_jai@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3b35f0fc.2416451@news.sff.net...
> On Sat, 23 Jun 2001 10:53:32 -0500, "dee" <ke4lfg@amsat.org> wrote:
> Perhaps, D2, or perhaps I'm confusing the differences inherent in
> military law. . . . But even given
> those constraints, a military commander still has certain perogatives
> over the lives and living quarters of a soldier that, thank goodness,
> the police and prosecutors do not have over citizens.
Ah, now that does seem likely. I know just about zilch re: military
law, but the one thing I do remember is that part about a military
commander's broader authority. Which maybe gets us back to RAH :), who
emphasized the difference between military and civilian
rights/responsibilities/discipline.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19316
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:00:16 -0400
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Jai Johnson-Pickett wrote:
> For example, someone tells me, as a police officer, that John
> Doe is planning to rob a bank and has a room full of drilling
> equipment, explosives, or whatever else it might take to rob a bank.
> I believe I could get a judge to authorize a search and seize that
> equipment, even tho it's not specifically illegal to own that stuff.
> However, if I cannot later prove that John Doe has robbed a bank in
> the past, or committed some other crime, I can't do anything further
> and will have to give the stuff back.
Unless, of course, you can prove that the stuff is evidence of a
*conspiracy* to commit a felony, which is often a crime in its own right,
even if the plans are frustrated before they come to fruition. I believe
this is how prosecutions are brought in murder-for-hire schemes that are
foiled by police sting operations.
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19317
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:23:06 -0400
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Ed Johnson wrote:
> If you and the militia wan't to
> store tanks and armored vehicles, how about allowing for an
> ordinance...
Would that be an ordnance ordinance? (sorry... couldn't resist <g>)
> ...forcing you to keep it secure from theft and to keeping it
> from falling into criminal hands?
Actually, such a thing already exists wrt to explosives: Permit, storage, and
strict recordkeeping requirements apply under federal law to both low explosives
and high explosives (exactly what the rules are depends on whether you're a
user, dealer, or manufacturer; the amount stored; conditions of use or
transportation; etc.). I happen to know this because of my involvement in hobby
rocketry: Some of the larger motors are classed as low explosives (unfairly so,
as it's virtually impossible to make them detonate, even if you're trying to),
and fall under those regulations. While the primary goal of the regs is, of
course, fire and explosion safety, a major secondary goal is maintaining the
security of the materials. Magazines must not only be sparkproof and stong
enough to contain an explosion; they must also be *locked*, and arranged so as
to be difficult to jimmy open or carry away (e.g., in some cases they must be
bolted to the floor). In addition, the permit holder is required to keep a
strict inventory, and report to the BATF immediately if anything turns up
unaccounted for.
Even if they were not otherwise illegal, I imagine any sort of explosive
material or device (e.g., nukes or HE artillery shells) would fall under these
same regulations. Heaven only knows what sort of magazine would be required for
safe storage of a multi-kiloton warhead.
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19318
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 13:29:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
--------------6E85A07AE132BCE3192F014F
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
"William B. Dennis 2nd" wrote:
>
> Are these voting machines of which you speak as simple as this?
>
> --
> William B. Dennis 2nd
>
On "my" (and other "direct recording electronic") there is no paper at all.
You press buttons (or turn a dial on the Hart system) and the ballot results are
recorded as the voter closes his ballot.
The heart of my patent is recording the full ballot results on a permanent
media. A WORM (Write Once Read Many times) at the time, a non-erasable CD-ROM
in current technology.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
--------------6E85A07AE132BCE3192F014F
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
"William B. Dennis 2nd" wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>
<br>Are these voting machines of which you speak as simple as this?
<p>--
<br>William B. Dennis 2nd
<br><a href="http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com"></a> </blockquote>
On "my" (and other "direct recording electronic") there
is no paper at all. You press buttons (or turn a dial on the Hart
system) and the ballot results are recorded as the voter closes his ballot.
<p> The heart of my patent is recording the full ballot
results on a permanent media. A WORM (Write Once Read Many times)
at the time, a non-erasable CD-ROM in current technology.
<p>--
<br><<Big Charlie>>
<p>Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
<br> </html>
--------------6E85A07AE132BCE3192F014F--
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19319
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:33:32 -0400
Subject: Re: Introduction
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
lemmen@saxonmtg.com wrote:
> I am a former Officer Commanding
> of a brigade of the Provisional Irish Republican Army... <snip> It is from [a.f.h]
> (and 2 other [newsgroups], alt.books.tom-clancy....
A former IRA officer posting to a Tom Clancy newsgroup? *That* must make for some...
er, energetic... conversations, given Clancy's generally anglophile bent and the
specifically rough treatment he's given the IRA here and there.
-JovBill
PS: Welcome to our humble little village.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19320
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:35:01 -0400
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
dee wrote:
> Jai, I suspect that you may be mixing a little conspiracy law in with
> probable cause. Conspiracy consists of the agreement to commit a crime,
> combined with an overt act. The overt act may be a VERY small step in the
> furtherance of the crime, and may not be criminal in itself.
Hmmm... I *knew* I should have read all the new responses before I posted
<sigh>...
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19321
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 13:33:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Audrey--
The only thing worse than old age is the alternative.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19322
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 09:50:28 -0700
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com> wrote in message
news:svh9jts9mo84vuiaj0hl3kj7gvpvheg4b3@4ax.com...
> Filksinger: I hope that this 2 cents worth doesn't throw the
> "nukes in the basement" thread off track. Would it simplify (or
> drastically change things) if we discussed explosives other than
> nuclear weapons?
I don't think so. Again, my criteria is the same; if it is brought
close enough to kill me, I have a right to react as if it is a gun
pointed at me. If you show evidene of intent to bring it that close to
me, I can react as if you are wielding a gun in a manner showing
intent to point it at me.
In the case of a gun, it must remain holstered, and I can react as if
threatened if you appear to be about to draw it. In the case of a .50
cal. machine gun, I can react if it is mounted where it can reach my
property, even if pointed in another direction. In the case of a bomb,
I can react if you show intent to bring it close enough to the edge of
your property to kill people.
In all cases, the principle is the same.
<snip>
> If you and the militia wan't to
> store tanks and armored vehicles, how about allowing for an
> ordinance forcing you to keep it secure from theft and to keeping it
> from falling into criminal hands? Not in the back yard/basement.
Essentially correct. It must be kept where it is safe, just like a
firearm. What is necessary to keep it safe is dependent upon the
weapon itself. Considerably more is necessary to keep me safe from a
gun than a knife, a conventional explosive than a gun, and a nuclear
weapon than a conventional explosive.
> I used to work and live where thermonuclear weapons were routinely
> stored. The WSA (weapons storage area) was a series of underground
> bunkers a mile or two from the nearest home or office. There was
> plenty of security involved to prevent accidental or intentional
> detonation. This was 14 miles from town on an Air Force base.
> I didn't mind living that close; I would mind having a libertarian
> neighbor with Mark 12, (2 mega-ton nominal yield) warheads in his
> basement.
They took pains to keep it safe. Privately or publicly held, holding
it so that other people are not "in the line of fire" is the key.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19323
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 17:36:30 -0400
Subject: Re: Bookbinders Dinner at MilPhilCon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Paul:
Please add my name to the list of those who plan to join you for
dinner at O.O. Bookbinders. (My wife, who started working in Center
City Philadelphia about 18 years ago assures me that there are quite
a few places to eat there that are better suited for our sort of
gathering. That notwithstanding: I'm happy to go along with
whatever works for this diverse crowd. <g> Bookbinders works for
me.)
Put me down for: One attending.
Ed J
On 21 Jun 2001 14:57:58 GMT, lemmen@saxonmtg.com wrote:
>This just in:
>To: Paul Lemmen
>
>Thank you for your dining request. For large group dining, we forward
>the requests to the Banquet & Catering Manager of the restaurant so
>that they can more effectively serve you.
>
>Sam from Old Original Bookbinders will be contacting you directly to
>handle the arrangements for your event for a party of 20.
>
>Thank you for using SavvyDiner.com!
>
>Lisa
>reserve@savvydiner.com
>
>I will keep all interested parties posted on progress!
>
>Slainte,
>Paul H. Lemmen
>Bloc Sprao Agath
>No Go Maci
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19324
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 17:42:34 -0400
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
John: Well said. I can only guess that NASA has never heard:
"Lead, Follow or Get out of the Way!".
The best some of us can hope for from Big Gov'ment is for them to
fund research in next gen propulsion systems.
Not likely at this rate.
Ed J (National Space Society)
On Fri, 22 Jun 2001 22:23:25 -0400, John Teehan <tumble@ids.net>
wrote:
>You're not going to see serious exploitation of space or the possibility
>of Man's committed exploration until spaceflight gets out of the hands
>of bureaucrats and into the hands of people willign to take some risks.
>Dennis Tito is a hero. Hell, Pizza Hut is a hero. We _need_ more people
>interested in investing space. If the Russians are willing to step in
>where the Americans fear to tread, then shame on us. Good for them.
>NASA's whining about Tito's visit to the space station disgusted me. If
>NASA was in charge of America's western expansion, we'd still be crowded
>east of the Mississippi.
>
>Does anyone recall a story in _Analog_ about a year ago that told of the
>first manned mission to Mars? (Actually, a woman explorer) NASA
>administrators fretted about being beaten to Mars by a Hollywood
>director who took advantage of commercial companies (and sponsorship)
>and funded the entire project for a hundredth of NASA's projected
>mission cost.
>
>The first flag planted on Mars by a human being was from New Zealand.
>
>Sorry if all this has been said before. I've missed some of the earlier
>parts of this thread. I've just had three cups of coffee, so waiting for
>my blood pressure to level. ^_^
>
>--John Teehan
>
>JT wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 19 Jun 2001 14:16:12 -0500, "William B. Dennis 2nd"
>> <dwilliam16@home.com> wrote:
>> >It is a sorry state of affairs that a nation barely freed from communism
>> >would open outer space to a commercial tourism.
>> >
>> >--
>> >William B. Dennis 2nd
>> >http://billscontent.tripod.com and
>> >http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
>>
>> Hi Bill, glad to see to made it here.... And that's just the kind of
>> statement that gets things going around here. ;) Welcome!
>>
>> JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19325
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 17:48:22 -0400
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
JovBill:
Thanks, I didn't know the particulars but I was sure that there
were rules and regs governing safe storage and use.
Years ago I too ran into the notion that (? Class D and larger?)
model rocket engines were considered explosives. We used to launch
them in High School.
Ed J
On Sun, 24 Jun 2001 14:23:06 -0400, Bill Dauphin
<dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>
>Ed Johnson wrote:
>
>> If you and the militia wan't to
>> store tanks and armored vehicles, how about allowing for an
>> ordinance...
>
>Would that be an ordnance ordinance? (sorry... couldn't resist <g>)
>
>> ...forcing you to keep it secure from theft and to keeping it
>> from falling into criminal hands?
>
>Actually, such a thing already exists wrt to explosives: Permit, storage, and
>strict recordkeeping requirements apply under federal law to both low explosives
>and high explosives (exactly what the rules are depends on whether you're a
>user, dealer, or manufacturer; the amount stored; conditions of use or
>transportation; etc.). I happen to know this because of my involvement in hobby
>rocketry: Some of the larger motors are classed as low explosives (unfairly so,
>as it's virtually impossible to make them detonate, even if you're trying to),
>and fall under those regulations. While the primary goal of the regs is, of
>course, fire and explosion safety, a major secondary goal is maintaining the
>security of the materials. Magazines must not only be sparkproof and stong
>enough to contain an explosion; they must also be *locked*, and arranged so as
>to be difficult to jimmy open or carry away (e.g., in some cases they must be
>bolted to the floor). In addition, the permit holder is required to keep a
>strict inventory, and report to the BATF immediately if anything turns up
>unaccounted for.
>
>Even if they were not otherwise illegal, I imagine any sort of explosive
>material or device (e.g., nukes or HE artillery shells) would fall under these
>same regulations. Heaven only knows what sort of magazine would be required for
>safe storage of a multi-kiloton warhead.
>
>-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19326
From: David Wright" <dwrighsr@alltel.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2001 20:12:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Introduction
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3b3506c4.338729677@news.sff.net...
> On 23 Jun 2001 13:48:13 GMT, lemmen@saxonmtg.com wrote:
>
> >P'raps I have been precipitous in posting the Bookbinders dinner thread
> >without introducing myself.
>
> Eh, stuff happens. It's certainly clearer now! <G>
>
> I don't have anything against a.f.h myself, but I don't read there
> because the volume of noise on Usenet is too high in general. I never
> make the AIM chats because they always slip my mind.
>
> JT
Hi JT
As archivist of the AIM chats, I have been remiss in sending out notices
*before* the event. I'll try to do better in the future, to both the
newsgroups and to the mailing list I maintain.
David Wright
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19327
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 05:15:41 -0500
Subject: Invasion of privacy?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
--------------016350008D76C91B915114FB
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
I thought this would be an interesting point for discussion.
Fair use doctrine is believed to apply to quoting this article.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rental driver finds Big Brother over shoulder
June 22, 2001 Posted: 11:38 AM EDT (1538 GMT)
By Richard Stenger
CNN
(CNN) -- An ordinary trip turned into an Orwellian ordeal for one
Connecticut driver, forced to pay multiple fines after a car rental
company tracked his every move via satellite.
James Turner of New Haven took Acme car rental company to court, calling
the technology too intrusive. Acme countered that Turner knew the risks.
Regardless, the litigation has such an unexpected high-tech spin that
the state attorney general joined the legal fray.
When Turner needed a van to drive from New Haven to Virginia some months
ago for business, he turned to a merchant near his home that he had
relied on many times in the past.
But the theater box office manager overlooked a clause in the contract
stating that its vehicles were equipped with a Global Positioning
Satellite (GPS) system and that going over the speed limit would cost
$150 per infraction.
When he returned home and tried to use his ATM card, he discovered that
the rental company had taken out $450 from his account. Acme Rent-A-Car
had determined that he had gone over the speed limit three times and
dipped into his account for each one.
"They took the money out before I returned the car," Turner told CNN
this week. "I was very, very surprised. I was not aware of what GPS
could do. I thought it was an onboard navigation system, to use when you
get lost."
High-tech tracking
The van was outfitted with more than standard GPS technology. It had a
much more sophisticated monitoring system, AirIQ, which allowed Acme to
check Turner's speed and location.
Turner hired a lawyer and went to small claims court, but Acme said
Turner was well aware of the contract provisions.
"I don't think it was too intrusive. The warning is printed in big bold
letters on top of the contract, saying any sustained speeds over 79 mph
would be subject to fines," said Max Brunswick.
"It's not something that's in the fine print. It's explained to the
customer and the customer has to initial it," he said.
Making money or tracking cars?
Turner protested that the company had no system of due process by which
he could challenge the charges. Brunswick said that for each infraction,
the satellite system notified Acme only after Turner had gone over 80
mph for at least two minutes.
"The real purpose is not to make money from people speeding. The real
reason is to track cars," Brunswick said.
The monitoring system allows Acme to find cars that are not returned, a
persistent problem that can drive small car rental companies out of
business, he said.
Moreover, drivers knowing their speed is being checked tend to drive
slower, leading to less liability for the company and fewer accidents
for the drivers, according to Brunswick.
"It's safe to say this policy saves lives," he said.
The state has stepped in to help settle the legal morass, leaving the
small claims case in limbo.
"The court is waiting for the consumer protection board and attorney
general to make their ruling," which could come within weeks, Turner
said.
-------------------------------------------------------------
--
<<Big Charlie>>
Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
--------------016350008D76C91B915114FB
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
I thought this would be an interesting point for discussion.
<p>Fair use doctrine is believed to apply to quoting this article.
<p>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<br><i>Rental driver finds Big Brother over shoulder</i>
<br><i>June 22, 2001 Posted: 11:38 AM EDT (1538 GMT)</i>
<br><i> </i>
<br><i>By Richard Stenger</i>
<br><i>CNN</i><i></i>
<p><i>(CNN) -- An ordinary trip turned into an Orwellian ordeal for one
Connecticut driver, forced to pay multiple fines after a car rental company
tracked his every move via satellite.</i><i></i>
<p><i>James Turner of New Haven took Acme car rental company to court,
calling the technology too intrusive. Acme countered that Turner knew the
risks. Regardless, the litigation has such an unexpected high-tech spin
that the state attorney general joined the legal fray.</i><i></i>
<p><i>When Turner needed a van to drive from New Haven to Virginia some
months ago for business, he turned to a merchant near his home that he
had relied on many times in the past.</i><i></i>
<p><i>But the theater box office manager overlooked a clause in the contract
stating that its vehicles were equipped with a Global Positioning Satellite
(GPS) system and that going over the speed limit would cost $150 per infraction.</i><i></i>
<p><i>When he returned home and tried to use his ATM card, he discovered
that the rental company had taken out $450 from his account. Acme Rent-A-Car
had determined that he had gone over the speed limit three times and dipped
into his account for each one.</i><i></i>
<p><i>"They took the money out before I returned the car," Turner told
CNN this week. "I was very, very surprised. I was not aware of what GPS
could do. I thought it was an onboard navigation system, to use when you
get lost."</i><i></i>
<p><i>High-tech tracking</i>
<br><i>The van was outfitted with more than standard GPS technology. It
had a much more sophisticated monitoring system, AirIQ, which allowed Acme
to check Turner's speed and location.</i><i></i>
<p><i>Turner hired a lawyer and went to small claims court, but Acme said
Turner was well aware of the contract provisions.</i><i></i>
<p><i>"I don't think it was too intrusive. The warning is printed in big
bold letters on top of the contract, saying any sustained speeds over 79
mph would be subject to fines," said Max Brunswick.</i><i></i>
<p><i>"It's not something that's in the fine print. It's explained to the
customer and the customer has to initial it," he said.</i><i></i>
<p><i>Making money or tracking cars?</i>
<br><i>Turner protested that the company had no system of due process by
which he could challenge the charges. Brunswick said that for each infraction,
the satellite system notified Acme only after Turner had gone over 80 mph
for at least two minutes.</i><i></i>
<p><i>"The real purpose is not to make money from people speeding. The
real reason is to track cars," Brunswick said.</i><i></i>
<p><i>The monitoring system allows Acme to find cars that are not returned,
a persistent problem that can drive small car rental companies out of business,
he said.</i><i></i>
<p><i>Moreover, drivers knowing their speed is being checked tend to drive
slower, leading to less liability for the company and fewer accidents for
the drivers, according to Brunswick.</i><i></i>
<p><i>"It's safe to say this policy saves lives," he said.</i><i></i>
<p><i>The state has stepped in to help settle the legal morass, leaving
the small claims case in limbo.</i><i></i>
<p><i>"The court is waiting for the consumer protection board and attorney
general to make their ruling," which could come within weeks, Turner said.</i>
<br>-------------------------------------------------------------
<br>--
<br><<Big Charlie>>
<p>Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
<br> </html>
--------------016350008D76C91B915114FB--
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19328
From: lemmen@saxonmtg.com
Date: 25 Jun 2001 16:48:45 GMT
Subject: Bookbinders dinner list
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Tally:
Myself and wife, OJIII and wife, David Silver +1, Howard Berkowitz, Lorraine
Marositz, James Gifford +1, Jon Ogden +1, Barry Berman +1, Tawn, Bill Patterson
+2 bringing the total to 18...the reservation id for 20....anyone wishing
to be added, please email me at lemmen@saxonmtg.com.
Slainte,
--
Paul H. Lemmen
Bloc Sprao Agath
No Go Maci
(To the Gaelically challenged:
Have fun or get out)
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19329
From: lemmen@saxonmtg.com
Date: 25 Jun 2001 17:07:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Introduction
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
It does. :) In the beginning (4 years ago) the first several posts were
most interesting (including some direct email from Mr. Clancy himself).
The emphasis is on the parameter "former" and the reasons for my repudiation
of the goals of the Provisional IRA. After a heated exchange of posts, it
was discovered that a commonality of view was achieved.
Thank you for the welcome, it appears that I shall enjoy this forum.
Slainte,
Paul H. Lemmen
Bloc Sprao Agath
No Go Maci
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19330
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 15:28:20 -0700
Subject: Re: Bookbinders dinner list
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
lemmen@saxonmtg.com wrote:
> Myself and wife, OJIII and wife, David Silver +1, Howard Berkowitz, Lorraine
> Marositz, James Gifford +1, Jon Ogden +1, Barry Berman +1, Tawn, Bill Patterson
> +2 bringing the total to 18...the reservation id for 20....anyone wishing
> to be added, please email me at lemmen@saxonmtg.com.
Sounds as if we might need to expand that reservation. I'm not familiar
with Bookbinders (or any other Philly restaurant); can they handle a 25,
30 or 50 person gathering should this grow that large?
Oh (duh), put down two more guests for me - tentatively. I need to
invite them, but I'm sure they'll accept.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19331
From: John Teehan <tumble@ids.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:17:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
JT wrote:
>
> Welcome to the HF, John. If you were so inclined, "JT"'s already
> taken in these parts. <VBG>
>
> I agree with your sentiments about spaceflight.
>
> JT
Thanks. I've been lurking for a bit to get a feel for the place. First
Heinlein read was "Citizen of the Galaxy" back in grade school. Was
hooked.
No worries about the JT thing. On just about every list I'm on, there's
already a JT or a John T. I'll stick with...
--John Teehan
tumble@ids.net
http://www.sff.net/people/jdteehan
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19332
From: John Teehan <tumble@ids.net>
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:21:41 -0400
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I've recently finished reading Both Bova's "Venus" and "Jupiter" and in
each case, space exploration seems to be more in the spirit of private
enterprise than government effort. Of course this comes with its own
hassles and headaches, but it still appears to be _much_ more effective.
--John Teehan
tumble@ids.net
http://www.sff.net/people/jdteehan
btw, Folks may want to look at Bova's books about planetary exploration.
A little high-handed at times, social agenda-wise, but overall they're
very good and they push for the necessity of risk to further scientific
inquiry. I just submitted a lengthy review of Jupiter to
strangehorizons.com
Ed Johnson wrote:
>
> John: Well said. I can only guess that NASA has never heard:
> "Lead, Follow or Get out of the Way!".
> The best some of us can hope for from Big Gov'ment is for them to
> fund research in next gen propulsion systems.
>
> Not likely at this rate.
>
> Ed J (National Space Society)
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19333
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 20:52:40 -0400
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Ed Johnson wrote:
> Years ago I too ran into the notion that (? Class D and larger?)
> model rocket engines were considered explosives.
Not exactly. Model rocket engines are -- and have been pretty much since they were
invented -- *specifically* exempted from regulation as explosives (or as fireworks,
for that matter). They are classed -- along with certain sorts of nail guns and
other nifty explosive-powered gadgets -- as "propellant actuated devices." This
exemption covers finished rocket motors with not more than 62.5 grams of propellant
(in practical terms, up through G class... roughly 8 times as powerful as Ds);
anything bigger than that is considered a high-power rocket (HPR) motor, and is
subject to regulation as a low explosive. Even, there is currently in effect an
exemption for reloadable motors (note: this means you assemble premanufactured
propellant grains into a casing, NOT that you mix your own propellant) whose
individual propellant segments contain no more than 62.5 grams, regardless of the
total assembled propellant weight, and that allows unregulated storage and use of a
limited selection of motors up to J class (roughly 8 times more powerful than Gs!).
The BATF has declared its intention to eliminate this so-called "Easy Access" class
of high-power motor by applying the regulation on the basis of total assembled
propellant weight rather than grain segment weight, but this change is on hold
pending the outcome of a lawsuit, brought by the NAR (the leading national
organization for model rocketry) and the Tripoli Rocketry Association (the leading
national HPR group), which seeks to reduce the regulatory burden on hobby rocketry.
The fact is that -- *regardless of size* -- finished rocket motors (as opposed to
loose propellant) can't easily (if at all) be made to detonate, can't easily be
converted into bomb-making materials, and can't be used effectively to power a
homemade weapon (i.e., it'd be MUCH easier for a terrorist to steal a real military
missile than to make an effective one from scratch using hobby technology). In
addition, they pose very little fire risk (no more than other flammable items you
currently have in your home) and virtually no explosion risk. (There's a famous
video of a countrolled test in which a lit cigarette is place on a slug of composite
propellant from a hobby motor and allowed to burn all the way down... without any
sign of ignition.) So we (i.e., the organized hobby community) contend that all
hobby rocket motors should be extended the same exemption as model rocket motors...
or failing that, at least that the draconian storage requirements (it's essentially
impossible to legally store regulated motors in an ordinary residence) be eased.
Hah! *MUCH* more than you wanted to know, I'll wager. Sorry 'bout the soapbox.
> We used to launch
> them in High School.
You should consider getting back into it. Even if you don't have time for another
hobby, check out http://www.rocketryonline.com just to see where the hobby is today.
Rocketry Online is the one-stop jumpstation for all things rocketry-related on the
Web.
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19334
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2001 22:42:25 -0400
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Bill Dauphin wrote:
> Ed Johnson wrote:
>
> > Years ago I too ran into the notion that (? Class D and larger?)
> > model rocket engines were considered explosives.
>
> Not exactly. Model rocket engines are... *specifically* exempted from regulation as
> explosives (or as fireworks,
> for that matter).
Meant to add that your local police chief, fire marshal, Parks and Rec director, high
school principal, et al., may well not have known what the rules really are. A lot of
local officials tend to *assume* that model rockets are illegal, without bothering to
look up the actual law. Or you may have been up against an unusually restrictive local
ordinance (most of those are gone now, but maybe not when you were in HS). But it's
federal law -- and specifically the BATF -- that gets to decide what's an explosive.
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19335
From: lemmen@saxonmtg.com
Date: 26 Jun 2001 11:28:13 GMT
Subject: Re: Bookbinders dinner list
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>Sounds as if we might need to expand that reservation. I'm not >familiar
with Bookbinders (or any other Philly restaurant); can they >handle a 25,30
or 50 person gathering should this grow that large?
>Oh (duh), put down two more guests for me - tentatively. I need to
>invite them, but I'm sure they'll accept.
Okay, they (unnamed attendees) are added....full compliment of 20....Bookbinders
will allow us to grow up to 40 in size for this date and time.
Slainte,
Paul H. Lemmen
Bloc Sprao Agath
No Go Maci
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19336
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2001 10:54:48 -0400
Subject: Re: 2nd Amendement
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <3B363007.545A26C9@ix.netcom.com>, Bill Dauphin writes...
....
> Actually, such a thing already exists wrt to explosives: Permit, storage, and
> strict recordkeeping requirements apply under federal law to both low explosives
> and high explosives (exactly what the rules are depends on whether you're a
> user, dealer, or manufacturer; the amount stored; conditions of use or
> transportation; etc.).
In addition to federal (or other) law criminalizing such things there is
also tort law. My handy /Torts in a Nutshell/ seems to have gone
missing, but I am pretty sure that strict liability applies to the
storage and use of explosives.
I mention tort law because some of this discussion has focused on how
criminal intent might (or might not) be shown. But tort law does not
require a showing of criminal intent, and is, in this respect, I think,
consistent with the interesting principle that Filk has put forward.
Rather than get sidetracked by intent, I think that Filk should simply
focus on the risk brought about by the action of others. I think that
the essence of the disagreement between Filk and B.C. turns on how such
risks are to be evaluated and on how things get labeled.
As to the first, evaluating risks is complicated matter. I would agree
with Filk that he was morally correct to take certain protective actions
/if/ indeed he were placed beyond some risk threshold (the value of which
is, itself, a matter to be determined) by the "nuke next door". That is
the sort of factual claim that juries are supposed to resolve in our
legal system. The problem is that a jury might be wrong and Filk right
about the risk. But this simply would mean that the legal system, in
this case, would have failed to properly back a legitimate moral claim by
Filk. Sadly, this happens all the time, sine human beings are fallible.
Second, B.C. apparently wants to invoke 2nd amendment protection because
a nuclear bomb is a "arm" (in the sense of a weapon). But this is also a
factual claim: it is not logically necessary that all nuclear bombs are
weapons simply because /some/ (or most, of course) of them are. It is
much easier for us to understand how a handgun protects our neighbor than
to see how a nuclear bomb does so, and surely self-protection is the
basis of the right. So it is quite possible to object to "neighborhood
nukes" while remaining a staunch, even fervent, supporter of the 2nd.
--
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19337
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:20:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Mon, 25 Jun 2001 21:17:09 -0400, John Teehan <tumble@ids.net>
wrote:
>No worries about the JT thing. On just about every list I'm on, there's
>already a JT or a John T. I'll stick with...
>
>--John Teehan
>tumble@ids.net
>http://www.sff.net/people/jdteehan
So I went and checked out your web page, and was tickled to see you
holding a Commodore PET. I first learned BASIC on a PET, and I'm
kicking myself over a lost opportunity--I used to work for my school
district and and one point there were heaps of them sitting in a
storeroom, forgotten in the wake of whatever was state-of-the-art that
moment. My supervisor was willing to "let one walk" but I didn't take
him up on it. How I wish I had one now for the nostalgia! <G>
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19338
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 01:21:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Thoughts from _Have Space Suit: Will Travel_
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"JT" wrote>
> So I went and checked out your web page, and was tickled to see you
> holding a Commodore PET. I first learned BASIC on a PET, and I'm
> kicking myself over a lost opportunity--I used to work for my school
> district and and one point there were heaps of them sitting in a
> storeroom, forgotten in the wake of whatever was state-of-the-art that
> moment. My supervisor was willing to "let one walk" but I didn't take
> him up on it. How I wish I had one now for the nostalgia! <G>
>
Omigosh, here we go... my first real programming class was on CBMs and PETs.
For the final exam, everyone in the class had to write _part_ of a program.
I slipped my disk and doco under the teacher's door, knowing that it worked,
but having no idea if it worked with anyone else's parts of the program.
(Had a plane to catch, donchano!)
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19339
From: Terry Allen" <the.allens@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:40:55 +0100
Subject: Have Space Suit
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Don't know if any of you have seen this.
Terry
> > -> CLASSICS
> > In lesser hands, the simple adventure of "Have Space Suit--Will Travel"
> > would have faltered, but Robert A. Heinlein's story of a young boy's
first
> > trip to the stars inspired a generation.
> >
> > http://www.scifiweekly.com/issue218/classic.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19340
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 09:46:35 -0700
Subject: Re: Have Space Suit
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Terry Allen wrote:
> Don't know if any of you have seen this.
>> http://www.scifiweekly.com/issue218/classic.html
*Sigh*. Not bad, but HSSWT is not a minor work, as the reviewer
repeatedly claims.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19341
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 19:40:55 -0400
Subject: Re: Marz Attax
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
James Gifford wrote:
> "I have a warehouse full of Martians."
>
> Sounds like a code phrase from "Get Smart," doesn't it?
>
> -
I have one of your Martians :-)
I wonder how book names generally arrive at a shortened form so quickly?
I refer to your book as just "ARC" now and I think everyone knows what I
mean.
Bill and Andy's book, "The Martian Named Smith" doesn't lend itself to a
snappy acronym so I'm just going with "Martian". Except for when I type
Martina which I do a lot. I wrote an article on Red Planet and had to
keep on deleting martinas all over the place...
I'm looking forward to discussing the book ...anyone up for that yet?
For instance, the authors comment in chapter three that Heinlein's later
books were,
'equally in tune with the Zeitgeist'.
If true, I wonder if this has a detrimental effect in the long term? Or
does it help to establish their credentials so firmly at the time of
publication that any change in the world view can still accommodate them
as worthwhile?
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19342
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 18:17:26 -0700
Subject: Re: Marz Attax
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
ddavitt wrote:
> Bill and Andy's book, "The Martian Named Smith" doesn't lend itself to a
> snappy acronym so I'm just going with "Martian". Except for when I type
> Martina which I do a lot. I wrote an article on Red Planet and had to
> keep on deleting martinas all over the place...
Sounds like you had tee many martinas... I mean, martoonies... I mean...
never mind.
> I'm looking forward to discussing the book ...anyone up for that yet?
I know *I'm* way too tired. :)
But sure, pick a loose end and tug on it.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19343
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Date: 29 Jun 2001 07:19:19 GMT
Subject: SpamGuard
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
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Date: 29 Jun 2001 20:43:11 GMT
Subject: SpamGuard
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
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From: webnews@sff.net
Date: 30 Jun 2001 00:37:06 GMT
Subject: SpamGuard
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
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Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
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Article 19351
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2001 00:35:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Have Space Suit
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3B3A0DEB.DA0A2C1C@rcsis.com...
> Terry Allen wrote:
> > Don't know if any of you have seen this.
> >> http://www.scifiweekly.com/issue218/classic.html
>
> *Sigh*. Not bad, but HSSWT is not a minor work, as the reviewer
> repeatedly claims.
>
Again, the Heinlein juveniles tend to get short shrift in historical
recollection. Ok, Rocket Ship Gallileo is shall we say, a bit dated, but
most of the rest hold up as great writing and good solid fiction.
One man's opinion.
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19352
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2001 08:56:18 -0400
Subject: Re: Have Space Suit
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
James Gifford got in ahead of me in saying that HSS-WT is not a
minor work. This is one of the master's works that has left a
lasting impression on me after only one reading. That this novel
operates on levels that have escaped the reviewer (Adam hyphen Troy)
is evident. Most of Heinlein's juveniles work this way. They
provide entertainment and subtle education for the teen audience and
much, much more when reread as an adult.
That condescending review misses the mark by a wide margin.
Ed J
On Wed, 27 Jun 2001 16:40:55 +0100, "Terry Allen"
<the.allens@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>Don't know if any of you have seen this.
>
>Terry
>
>
>> > -> CLASSICS
>> > In lesser hands, the simple adventure of "Have Space Suit--Will Travel"
>> > would have faltered, but Robert A. Heinlein's story of a young boy's
>first
>> > trip to the stars inspired a generation.
>> >
>> > http://www.scifiweekly.com/issue218/classic.html
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19353
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2001 22:35:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Have Space Suit
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com> wrote in message
news:j47ujt8h3ijm7cu0rgepmo8ammng91qodo@4ax.com...
> James Gifford got in ahead of me in saying that HSS-WT is not a
> minor work. This is one of the master's works that has left a
> lasting impression on me after only one reading. That this novel
> operates on levels that have escaped the reviewer (Adam hyphen Troy)
Which surprises me, because I have enjoyed many of Adam-Troy Castro's works.
He's an Analog regular, and I just finished his latest from the June issue.
A very touching story.
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19354
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 10:10:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Have Space Suit
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"William J. Keaton" wrote:
> "Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com> wrote in message
> news:j47ujt8h3ijm7cu0rgepmo8ammng91qodo@4ax.com...
> > James Gifford got in ahead of me in saying that HSS-WT is not a
> > minor work. This is one of the master's works that has left a
> > lasting impression on me after only one reading. That this novel
> > operates on levels that have escaped the reviewer (Adam hyphen Troy)
>
>
For instance, it's only in recent years that I've come to see the Moderator as
the bad guy, rather than the Wormfaces...or as well as maybe.
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19355
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2001 10:50:14 -0700
Subject: Westercon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Is anyone from the HF crowd attending Westercon in Portland next
weekend?
I'll be there, with Audrey and the twins. Bill Patterson and Andy
Thornton will also be there, and all three of us are on some interesting
panels.
Saturday, 7 July, is the official launch date for _Martian_, and we
three will be on a panel discussing "_Stranger_ After 40 Years."
See... some? ...any? of you there.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19356
From: Gordon Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 18:14:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Have Space Suit
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:3B4080E3.C8173955@netcom.ca...
> For instance, it's only in recent years that I've come to see the
Moderator as
> the bad guy, rather than the Wormfaces...or as well as maybe.
>
> Jane
The Moderator represents justice as pure procedure without any necessary tie
to liberal conceptions, i.e., what /we/ think of as just. For the
Moderator, procedure grinds on according to its own logic and precedent
without any requirement to judge the rightness of the results. We are told
that this is a pragmatic solution - the only thing that will work for an
inter-galactic order. I hypothesize that Mr. Heinlein did not think that
concepts of justice could be generalized across (alien) cultures - for
example, we see this in /Glory Road/ and various situations involving
Lazarus. I take it his view was either that there is no rational foundation
which different cultures could use to build a unified concept of justice, or
that the rational foundation is tied to racial survival (/Starship
Troopers/) and so, again, provides no basis when races conflict.
Note that this holds only at the macro level, where rules are needed to
coordinate the behavior of billions of beings. For each individual, or at
least our protagonists, there is a clear sense of what is just, or, at
least, of what is required of good person.
___
Gordon G. Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19357
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2001 15:38:39 -0700
Subject: Re: Westercon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I very much want to. But unless I get a very large amount of surprise
monies, it isn't happening.
Filksinger
"James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3B40B456.88C2B8D2@rcsis.com...
> Is anyone from the HF crowd attending Westercon in Portland next
> weekend?
>
> I'll be there, with Audrey and the twins. Bill Patterson and Andy
> Thornton will also be there, and all three of us are on some interesting
> panels.
>
> Saturday, 7 July, is the official launch date for _Martian_, and we
> three will be on a panel discussing "_Stranger_ After 40 Years."
>
> See... some? ...any? of you there.
>
> --
>
> | James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
> | See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19358
From: dee" <ke4lfg@amsat.org>
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:19:30 -0500
Subject: July 4
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Since I haven;t seen Geo around lately, I will continue his tradition of
posting the Declaration of Independence on this day.
IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
THE UNANIMOUS DECLARATION OF THE THIRTEEN UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to
dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to
assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to
which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect
to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes
which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that
among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. - That to secure
these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just
powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of
Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People
to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its
foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to
them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence,
indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed
for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn,
that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than
to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed.
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the
same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is
their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide
new Guards for their future security. - Such has been the patient sufferance
of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to
alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of
Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having
in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States.
To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
He has refused his Assent to Laws, the most wholesome and necessary for the
public good.
He has forbidden his Governors to pass Laws of immediate and pressing
importance, unless suspended in their operation till his Assent should be
obtained; and when so suspended, he has utterly neglected to attend to them.
He has refused to pass other Laws for the accommodation of large districts
of people, unless those people would relinquish the right of Representation
in the Legislature, a right inestimable to them and formidable to tyrants
only.
He has called together legislative bodies at places unusual, uncomfortable,
and distant from the depository of their public Records, for the sole
purpose of fatiguing them into compliance with his measures.
He has dissolved Representative Houses repeatedly, for opposing with manly
firmness his invasions on the rights of the people.
He has refused for a long time, after such dissolutions, to cause others to
be elected; whereby the Legislative powers, incapable of Annihilation, have
returned to the People at large for their exercise; the State remaining in
the mean time exposed to all the dangers of invasion from without, and
convulsions within.
He has endeavoured to prevent the population of these States; for that
purpose obstructing the Laws for Naturalization of Foreigners; refusing to
pass others to encourage their migrations hither, and raising the conditions
of new Appropriations of Lands.
He has obstructed the Administration of Justice, by refusing his Assent to
Laws for establishing Judiciary powers.
He has made Judges dependent on his Will alone, for the tenure of their
offices, and the amount and payment of their salaries.
He has erected a multitude of New Offices, and sent hither swarms of
Officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.
He has kept among us, in times of peace, Standing Armies without the Consent
of our legislatures.
He has affected to render the Military independent of and superior to the
Civil power.
He has combined with others to subject us to a jurisdiction foreign to our
constitution, and unacknowledged by our laws; giving his Assent to their
Acts of pretended Legislation:
For Quartering large bodies of armed troops among us:
For protecting them, by a mock Trial, from punishment for any Murders which
they should commit on the Inhabitants of these States:
For cutting off our Trade with all parts of the world:
For imposing Taxes on us without our Consent:
For depriving us in many cases, of the benefits of Trial by Jury:
For transporting us beyond Seas to be tried for pretended offences
For abolishing the free System of English Laws in a neighbouring Province,
establishing therein an Arbitrary government, and enlarging its Boundaries
so as to render it at once an example and fit instrument for introducing the
same absolute rule into these Colonies:
For taking away our Charters, abolishing our most valuable Laws, and
altering fundamentally the Forms of our Governments:
For suspending our own Legislatures, and declaring themselves invested with
power to legislate for us in all cases whatsoever.
He has abdicated Government here, by declaring us out of his Protection and
waging War against us.
He has plundered our seas, ravaged our Coasts, burnt our towns, and
destroyed the lives of our people.
He is at this time transporting large Armies of foreign Mercenaries to
compleat the works of death, desolation and tyranny, already begun with
circumstances of Cruelty & perfidy scarcely paralleled in the most barbarous
ages, and totally unworthy the Head of a civilized nation.
He has constrained our fellow Citizens taken Captive on the high Seas to
bear Arms against their Country, to become the executioners of their friends
and Brethren, or to fall themselves by their Hands.
He has excited domestic insurrections amongst us, and has endeavoured to
bring on the inhabitants of our frontiers, the merciless Indian Savages,
whose known rule of warfare, is an undistinguished destruction of all ages,
sexes and conditions.
In every stage of these Oppressions We have Petitioned for Redress in the
most humble terms: Our repeated Petitions have been answered only by
repeated injury.
A Prince whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a
Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.
Nor have We been wanting in attentions to our Brittish brethren. We have
warned them from time to time of attempts by their legislature to extend an
unwarrantable jurisdiction over us. We have reminded them of the
circumstances of our emigration and settlement here. We have appealed to
their native justice and magnanimity, and we have conjured them by the ties
of our common kindred to disavow these usurpations, which, would inevitably
interrupt our connections and correspondence.
They too have been deaf to the voice of justice and of consanguinity. We
must, therefore, acquiesce in the necessity, which denounces our Separation,
and hold them, as we hold the rest of mankind, Enemies in War, in Peace
Friends.
We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in
General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for
the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the
good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these
United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States;
that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that
all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and
ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they
have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace, contract Alliances, establish
Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may o
f right do. And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on
the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our
Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19359
From: Ed Johnson <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com >
Date: Wed, 04 Jul 2001 15:01:34 -0400
Subject: Re: July 4
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Dee:
Thanks for the patriotic post.
Happy Independence Day to All.
Ed J
On Wed, 4 Jul 2001 09:19:30 -0500, "dee" <ke4lfg@amsat.org> wrote:
> Since I haven;t seen Geo around lately, I will continue his tradition of
>posting the Declaration of Independence on this day.
>
>IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.
>THE UNANIMOUS DECLARATION OF THE THIRTEEN UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
>
>When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to
>dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to
>assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to
>which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect
>to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes
>which impel them to the separation.
>
>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal,
>that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that
>among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. - That to secure
>these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just
>powers from the consent of the governed, - That whenever any Form of
>Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People
>to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its
>foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to
>them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.
<snip>
> And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on
>the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our
>Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19360
From: Robert Slater" <rslater215@home.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 00:19:51 -0700
Subject: Heinlein blood drive???
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Haven't heard anything re: the annual blood drive. You can add my name to
the list if there is one. Good old O-pos.
SIFI Rob
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19361
From: Robert Slater" <rslater215@home.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 00:22:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Aslan v. Potter
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
But I've got no problem with the Star Trek novels as they are a shared
universe to begin with. How many people wrote scripts for the various
serious. Must be several hundred.
"William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com> wrote in message
news:3b2fad01.0@news.sff.net...
>
> ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
> news:3B22BA9E.231D789D@netcom.ca...
> > Lorrita Morgan wrote:
> >
> > > Inspired by Harry Potter mania, the estate of C.S. Lewis plans to
> release
> > > new Narnia novels devoid of Christian symbolism. Something tells me
> Lewis
> > > never envisioned Aslan as "The Lion King." (from Backwire.com's Art &
> > > Literature Backwire 6/6/2001)
> > > http://books.guardian.co.uk/news/articles/0%2C6109%2C501057%2C00.html
> > >
> > >
> >
> > There's been a lot of discussion about this on rasfw. I'm appalled. It's
> part
> > of an insidious fashion of going beyond "The End". Perhaps it's an
> indictment
> > on modern fiction that so many authors are writing sequels to classics
> > instead of writing their own books. Off the top of my head I can think
of
> > many; Jane Austen books, The Secret Garden, all the Little House
> > prequel/sequels.....sometimes they're good in their own right ( Tom
Holt's
> > Lucia books ) but generally they force the story into another dimension
> and
> > rarely leave me with a satisfied feeling. It spoils the originals after
> > you've read the faux sequels and the heroes have become unhappy and
> twisted.
> > And they usually do.
> >
> > Jane
>
>
> This is exactly my problem with all the Star Trek novels running about.
>
>
> --
> William B. Dennis 2nd
> http://billscontent.tripod.com and
> http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19362
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 16:57:10 -0400
Subject: Re: Heinlein blood drive???
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Robert Slater wrote:
> Haven't heard anything re: the annual blood drive. You can add my name to
> the list if there is one. Good old O-pos.
> SIFI Rob
Well, if you can make it to the Philcon, the Heinlein Society have one
organised there. I'll just post the message we have prepared for it...others
may have seen it already so close your eyes :-)
Jane
ARE YOU A COWARD?
This is not for you. We badly need brave men and women. You
must be 18 years
of age or older, in acceptable health, and willing to reach
out beyond
yourself to meet the responsibilities of life. We need
heroes, because --
WE WANT YOUR BLOOD
You may not know this, but Robert Heinlein spent more than
the last ten
years
of his life arranging blood drives. He had a very rare
blood type and, as
a consequence of a lifetime marked by a succession of
health afflictions, he
became quite interested in giving blood as a way of giving
something back
or,
as Heinlein liked to put it, "paying it forward."
In Glory Road, Heinlein begins his unique science fiction
fantasy novel with
a classified advertisement entitled "Are You a Coward?" and
then offers
contrary-minded would-be heroes a chance at some real
heroics.
This year, in conjunction with the 59th Annual World
Science Fiction
Convention at the Philadelphia Convention Center, The
Heinlein Society is
giving everyone an opportunity to be a "Heinlein Hero" by
sponsoring the
2001
Robert A. Heinlein Memorial "Pay It Forward" Blood Drive, a
world-wide blood
donorship campaign on the Labor Day Weekend, August 30
through September 3.
If you are planning to join us in Philadelphia, by all
means, join us on the
Glory Road to blood donorship. We are making special
arrangement with the
Red
Cross of Greater Philadelphia, for a blood collection point
just two blocks
from the Philadelphia Convention Center. We need
commitments for the Red
Cross
now. Each pint contributed may save up to three lives.
If you are or may be coming to Philadelphia, please visit
http://www.heinleinsociety.org and click on the "We need
your help" button.
Fill out the blood donor form and we will use this
information to credit the
campaign for your donation. Your information will be kept
confidential
and will not be disclosed to anyone other than the
Philadelphia office of
the
Red Cross and only to assure them that their arrangements
to provide a
bloodmobile will not be in vain.
LATE BREAKING NEWS: Mrs. Heinlein had donated 100 volumes
of novels by her l
ate beloved husband, which she is signing with a little
note to each donor;
and they will be given to the first 100 who present
themselves at the
bloodmobile and offer to donate blood to the Red Cross
there.
If your plans change, or you now know for certain you can't
make it to
Philadelphia for the convention, you may still participate
by giving blood
at
your local Red Cross office, dedicating your gift to the
memory of Robert
Heinlein and letting US know about it by logging onto our
web site and
enrolling yourself as a Heinlein Hero. Just go to the same
location on our
web site and fill out the blood donor form, indicating
where and when you
have or will give blood in the memory of Robert Heinlein.
If you cannot give blood for any reason, you may still
participate by making
a contribution to the American Red Cross. Make out your
check to "The Red
Cross" via postal mail to The Heinlein Society, PO Box
1254, Venice,
California 90294. We will add your name to our donor list
which will be
published and maintained on our web site.
Whether or not you are coming to Philadelphia, we are
asking your help to
continue a science-fiction fan tradition of lifesaving
blood donations made
at conventions, started nearly thirty years ago by Mr.
Heinlein and
continued
nobly by so many others who have passed this way before ...
all you have to
do is go to the Arch Street United Methodist Church, in
Philadelphia, two
blocks from the Convention Hall at Broad and Arch Streets,
on Saturday,
September 1, 2001, and donate your blood then and there,
any time between
the
hours of 9 AM and 5 PM.
The Heinlein Society is a nonprofit corporation established
by a group of
Heinlein aficionados and Mrs. Virginia Heinlein, herself,
to preserve the
memory of Robert Anson Heinlein and promote the continued
appreciation of
his
works. Membership is open to the general public. Read the
website for more
information at http://www.heinleinsociety.org and about
this year's blood
drive.
>>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19363
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2001 23:43:59 GMT
Subject: Re: Heinlein blood drive???
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Thu, 5 Jul 2001 00:19:51 -0700, "Robert Slater"
<rslater215@home.com> wrote:
>Haven't heard anything re: the annual blood drive. You can add my name to
>the list if there is one. Good old O-pos.
>SIFI Rob
>
I do know that Leslie and John Paul Vrolyk donated yesterday morning,
Leslie for the first time! We had a cookout with them in the
afternoon and got to see Jack again--he's a healthy two months now,
and a real cutie. No pictures, we were too busy keeping Daniel out of
trouble. ;)
I donated both whole blood and platelets last month. I'm going to try
to give platelets more often as I apparently have a high count and
they are quite happy to have me come as often as I can.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19364
From: kevin mcgillicuddy" <kmcgillicuddy@austin.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2001 20:35:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Heinlein blood drive???
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3b44fb08.1166277@news.sff.net...
<snip>
> >
> I donated both whole blood and platelets last month. I'm going to try
> to give platelets more often as I apparently have a high count and
> they are quite happy to have me come as often as I can.
>
> JT
That's good JT (platelet donations), as platelet donations (by apheresis)
yield about 10 times the amount of platelets that come from whole blood
donations, plus you can generally give whole blood within about 5 days of
giving just platelets. The center where I donate allows a platelet
donation, followed by another in 72 hours, then whole blood 5 days later -
followed by the same cycle 8 weeks later.
Usually you just donate to the "pool," and don't know who is going to
receive your blood, but there's nothing like being told that your donation
is going to a specific baby that needs clotting factor - right now - to save
its life. Is rather motivating. I'd encourage others who already donate
whole blood to try donating platelets by apheresis. Is more time consuming,
but rewarding.
McKevin
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19365
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2001 15:48:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Heinlein blood drive???
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
kevin mcgillicuddy wrote: I'd encourage others who already donate
> whole blood to try donating platelets by apheresis. Is more time consuming,
> but rewarding.
>
> McKevin
I can't donate blood in Canada as I'm British; would I be able to donate
platelets or is this still seen as a risk?
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19366
From: kevin mcgillicuddy" <kmcgillicuddy@austin.rr.com>
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2001 22:32:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Heinlein blood drive???
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"ddavitt" <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:3B4615F7.DD2FE6D0@netcom.ca...
> kevin mcgillicuddy wrote: I'd encourage others who already donate
>
> > whole blood to try donating platelets by apheresis. Is more time
consuming,
> > but rewarding.
> >
> > McKevin
>
> I can't donate blood in Canada as I'm British; would I be able to donate
> platelets or is this still seen as a risk?
>
>
> --
> http://www.heinleinsociety.org
>
I get asked the same screening questions whether I'm donating platelets or
whole blood. I therefore believe you would be restricted from donating
platelets as well as whole blood - but I would ask the blood center in your
area to make sure.
McKevin
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19367
From: Clay Steiner" <claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 02:47:09 -0600
Subject: Re: How are we all doing?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
> So consider this thread a chance to say "this is why I'm not posting
> these days"--I'd especially be thrilled if longtime no-posts like
> bytor and Tomstaafl checked in.
>
> best to all,
>
> JT
Hmm, the thread is now a month or so cold -- that's my cue! <G>
I wish like hell that I could say that finishing the novel or building
our new home or 'running' for office -- or anything remotely similar
-- is the reason for my continued sporadic HF activity. At least I can
truly say that I don't lurk, as every time I check in I'm compelled to
post.
As may be: time is fleeting, and madness takes its toll. (Bonus points
to those who can pinpoint the reference.) With me, it's also kids.
Dylan is ten now, which seems to mean that I know squat and he can
work Mom for anything to which I said "no", if he times it right. Page
will be five in August, and continues to show signs of "prodigy"
status in matters literary and musical. Reads and spells amazingly
well for a four-year-old, and lately walks around the house singing
songs from "Abbey Road", the "White Album" and "Houses of the Holy".
However, she ALSO continues to show limited development in some social
skills, and one behavior which I won't detail here; suffice it to say
that it involves too much laundry. Kim and I are seriously thinking of
holding her back from kindergarten for a year.
The airport shuttle side-job continues to be a source of much fun and
intellectual stimulation, amazingly enough. On my bus, in fact,I met a
man with whom I will likely collaborate on my (our) next book. And the
encounters with public-at-large are a great and plentiful source of
material.
Still active in spreading the Libertarian word, of course, but the
heady days of campaign appearances and hanging with Harry Browne are
last year's news. We have two Libertarians who have declared candidacy
for Governor of Colorado next year, one of whom (Bob Glass) appeared
on "Politically Incorrect" last month. My next efforts will likely be
thrown behind one of those gentlemen. I rather like the idea of being
a worthy Libertarian's Dak Broadbent; I'm better suited to that than
being a candidate or office-holder myself, I think. Especially with my
media background.
Lastly, my Tuesday nights are now devoted to getting back into
juggling -- I've started a class/club at the Brighton Recreation
Center. Particpation and progress in learning continue to be
gratifying.
Off for now --
Clay
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19368
From: Clay Steiner" <claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 03:07:09 -0600
Subject: Re: Westercon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <3B40B456.88C2B8D2@rcsis.com>, James Gifford
<jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote:
> Is anyone from the HF crowd attending Westercon in Portland next
> weekend?
>
> I'll be there, with Audrey and the twins. Bill Patterson and Andy
> Thornton will also be there, and all three of us are on some interesting
> panels.
>
> Saturday, 7 July, is the official launch date for _Martian_, and we
> three will be on a panel discussing "_Stranger_ After 40 Years."
>
> See... some? ...any? of you there.
Aw, Gawd, don't I wish! Dare we hope for a transcription or something,
somewhere?
Clay
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19369
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2001 17:28:58 -0400
Subject: Re: How are we all doing?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Clay Steiner wrote:
> As may be: time is fleeting, and madness takes its toll. (Bonus points
> to those who can pinpoint the reference.)
Aw, c'mon. If *that's* worthy of bonus points then I really feel old! <g>
You'll know what the answer is if you just take a jump to the left and
then a step to the right, put your hands on your hips and bring your
knees in tight.
But can anyone tell me who was ill the day the Earth stood still? ;^)
-JovBill
PS: What's for dinner?
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19370
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2001 03:22:18 -0400
Subject: Re: How are we all doing?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Clay Steiner" <claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net> wrote in
>
> As may be: time is fleeting, and madness takes its toll. (Bonus points
> to those who can pinpoint the reference.) With me, it's also kids.
>
I thought kids was the reference?! <g>
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19371
From: Clay Steiner" <claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 04:03:14 -0600
Subject: Re: How are we all doing?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
> You'll know what the answer is if you just take a jump to the left and
> then a step to the right, put your hands on your hips and bring your
> knees in tight.
But it's the pelvic thrust...
> But can anyone tell me who was ill the day the Earth stood still? ;^)
Seeing as how this wasn't grabbed by anyone else, I'll play
spoilsport: Michael Rennie. And he told us where we stand ("ON OUR
FEET!!")
> -JovBill
>
> PS: What's for dinner?
"Meat Loaf, again?!?"
--
Clay Steiner claysteiner@SPAMTHIS.prodigy.net
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Magenta has just released the dogs."
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19372
From: Clay Steiner" <claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 04:15:01 -0600
Subject: Re: How are we all doing?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <3b4809de.0@news.sff.net>, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
> I thought kids was the reference?! <g>
Nope. See my reply to JovBill for more clues. Bonus clue in the .sig
below.
--
Clay Steiner claysteiner@SPAMTHIS.prodigy.net
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Ven shall ve return to Transylvania, hah?!"
(ah, ah, ah -- stayin' alive, stayin' alive)
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19373
From: Clay Steiner" <claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 04:34:57 -0600
Subject: Re: Marz Attax
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <3B3A6F07.ED0A4DB5@netcom.ca>, ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
wrote:
> Except for when I type Martina which I do a lot.
Please give our best to Ms. Navratilova. Or would that be Ms. Hingis?
<g,d&r!>
Clay
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19374
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 18:32:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Marz Attax
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Clay Steiner wrote:
> In article <3B3A6F07.ED0A4DB5@netcom.ca>, ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > Except for when I type Martina which I do a lot.
>
> Please give our best to Ms. Navratilova. Or would that be Ms. Hingis?
> <g,d&r!>
>
> Clay
Don't mention tennis! :-( Next year Tim, next year....when will they
cover Wimbledon <sob>
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19375
Article no longer available
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19376
From: webnews@sff.net
Date: 9 Jul 2001 00:59:01 GMT
Subject: SpamGuard
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
One or more articles in this newsgroup have been cancelled by the sysops
for being spammed across multiple newsgroups, being commercial adverts,
or for violating SFF Net's Policies and Procedures.
To avoid seeing this notice in the future, set your newsreader to filter
out articles with SpamGuard in the subject.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19377
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 22:01:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Marz Attax
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
ddavitt wrote:
> when will they
> cover Wimbledon <sob>
I feel your pain, but... as someone who was a kid in Houston when the
Astrodome was brand new, I can tell you that putting a roof over a grass
playing field is a Bad Plan. ;^)
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19378
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2001 20:40:40 -0700
Subject: Re: Westercon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Clay Steiner wrote:
> James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote:
>> Is anyone from the HF crowd attending Westercon in Portland next
>> weekend?
>>
>> I'll be there, with Audrey and the twins. Bill Patterson and Andy
>> Thornton will also be there, and all three of us are on some interesting
>> panels.
>>
>> Saturday, 7 July, is the official launch date for _Martian_, and we
>> three will be on a panel discussing "_Stranger_ After 40 Years."
> Aw, Gawd, don't I wish! Dare we hope for a transcription or something,
> somewhere?
Well, Bill taped it, so we might prevail on him for at least a partial
panel. It was a wonderful panel, much very nice discussion.
Westercon was very small - about 1300 people. spread over two hotels -
but we had a lot of fun, did a lot of interesting things, and sold quite
a few copies of both books.
I'm too tired to type any details this evening (hey, YOU chase
16-month-old twins around a con for three days!), but it was a good
weekend. Some highlights when I can hold my arms up again.
Worldcon, here we come! (Nanny in tow!)
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19379
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2001 03:28:37 -0400
Subject: Re: How are we all doing?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Clay Steiner" <claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3b483020.0@news.sff.net...
> In article <3b4809de.0@news.sff.net>, "William J. Keaton"
> <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>
> > I thought kids was the reference?! <g>
>
> Nope. See my reply to JovBill for more clues. Bonus clue in the .sig
> below.
>
It was a joke, son! I own the 4 CD box set, the videos of both the Show and
Shock Treatment, and various other musical paraphenalia related to the
all-time classic cult movie.
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19380
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2001 08:52:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Marz Attax
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Bill Dauphin wrote:
> ddavitt wrote:
>
> > when will they
> > cover Wimbledon <sob>
>
> I feel your pain, but... as someone who was a kid in Houston when the
> Astrodome was brand new, I can tell you that putting a roof over a grass
> playing field is a Bad Plan. ;^)
>
> -JovBill
Well, I was thinking along the lines of a retractable one, like the one in
Toronto here at the Skydome.
My engineering husband is muttering things like, 'where would it _go_ when
it retracts?', 'they have to build it with the roof, not add it later' and
similar spoilsport things like that but I'm sure they could if they wanted
to.
Or a water repelling forcefield...whatever's easiest...
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19381
From: Clay Steiner" <claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2001 00:28:42 -0600
Subject: Re: How are we all doing?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <3b495cd6.0@news.sff.net>, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
> It was a joke, son!
Sorry, Foghorn. My -- I say -- my bad. Did you get the DVD, I hope?
It's way cool.
(Note to self: no more posts after the second martini; Dorothy Parker
had it right. :-)
--
Clay Steiner claysteiner@SPAMTHIS.prodigy.net
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Say something STUPID, Brad!"
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19382
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 09:44:08 -0700
Subject: Re: How are we all doing?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Clay Steiner" <claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3b4a9e19.0@news.sff.net...
>
> In article <3b495cd6.0@news.sff.net>, "William J. Keaton"
> <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>
> > It was a joke, son!
>
> Sorry, Foghorn. My -- I say -- my bad. Did you get the DVD, I hope?
> It's way cool.
>
> (Note to self: no more posts after the second martini; Dorothy Parker
> had it right. :-)
He posted this entire message, and only this one line provoked any
responses. And it provoked seven.
This time, I can only say that you people are truly warped.
Filksinger
"That's not a laser! I want Star Trek!"
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19383
From: hf_jai@prodigy.net (Jai Johnson-Pickett)
Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:15:45 GMT
Subject: Here's an interesting tidbit...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Hi all! Dual purpose here. First, to say we made it home safe and
sound. It sure was good to see our HF buds again. And special thanks
to Greg & Beth for putting us up (or was that putting up with us?) and
to Big Charlie for the same, and for his hosting the Heinlein BD
party.
Second, I thought you folks might be interested in this link. Text
will follow.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/state/la-000056553jul10.story?coll=la%2Dnews%2Dstate
______________________________
L.A. County Targets Satellites in Out-of-This-World Tax Plan
NANCY VOGEL, TIMES STAFF WRITER
SACRAMENTO -- Los Angeles County officials, realizing that there is no
tax collector in outer space, hope to fill the void.
Reaching 22,300 miles above the equator, boldly going where no tax
collector has gone before, Los Angeles County Assessor Rick Auerbach
is angling to impose property taxes on several satellites.
Though never done before in California, the move is legal, say state
and county tax attorneys. That's because, they say, nobody else is
taxing the satellites and they are valuable property owned by a Los
Angeles County-based company. Worth as much as $100 million each to
Hughes Electronics in El Segundo, the satellites could bring in
millions of dollars a year in taxes to schools and government. County
officials are considering assessing at least eight satellites owned by
Hughes.
The company is not happy about the tax collector's attempt to extend
his jurisdiction beyond this world.
Brian Paperny, Hughes vice president of taxes, described the company's
executives as "very concerned with the concept of a tax being assessed
on a stationary object fixed parking slot . . . over the equator,
far, far away from 22,300 miles away from the Earth, which is
residing in a Los Angeles County and the borders of California."
The idea has sparked a debate more cosmic than most in the annals of
property taxation.
Auerbach, the assessor, figures that satellites are no different from
other movable personal property that he has authority to tax--like
boats, construction equipment and ice skating costumes.
Yes, said Auerbach, who has researched the issue, in a 1976 case a
judge determined that the property of the Ice Capades could be taxed
by Los Angeles County although it spent most of the year traveling
elsewhere with the ice-skating extravaganza.
"It happens with a lot of other property," said Auerbach. "The
difference with the satellites, obviously, is that they're pretty far
removed from Earth."
Hughes argues that the satellites are in a different class altogether.
"The property in question here is geostationary," said Larry Hoenig, a
San Francisco attorney representing Hughes Electronics. "Geostationary
satellites sit above the equator in a fixed position; they do not
rotate around the Earth. So the satellites we're talking about here
are not movable property."
Attorneys for the state Board of Equalization, consulted by Auerbach,
came down on the county assessor's side.
"While the satellites are in Earth orbit," wrote the Board of
Equalization attorneys in a background paper, "they nonetheless have a
situs for tax purposes in Los Angeles County, California."
Auerbach's office first began questioning whether it could tax eight
satellites during a routine audit this year of the property that
Hughes Electronics owned from 1991 through 1994. If Auerbach succeeds
in taxing those satellites, presumably other satellites owned by
Hughes and its subsidiaries would be taxed.
The satellites serve a multitude of functions, from beaming HBO movies
into American homes to speeding up credit card processing for
motorists who pay at unmanned gas pumps, said Hughes spokesman Richard
Dore.
Hughes launches the satellites either from Cape Canaveral in Florida
or from French Guyana, he said. They are then guided to an orbit
approved by the Federal Communications Commission. The satellites
remain fixed in that orbit for 10 to 15 years, until they run out of
the fuel necessary to adjust their positions so they are constantly
pointed at Earth. Then they are moved to a designated space graveyard.
The satellites, said Dore, never pass over California territory.
Nonetheless, Auerbach said, he feels compelled to tax the satellites.
"I've read the opinions," he said, "and it's pretty clear in my mind
that it's taxable."
The elected officials who oversee the Board of Equalization, an agency
that collects one-third of the state's annual revenues, are not so
sure.
Last week, the board backed away from its own legal staff's opinion.
In a 3-2 vote, the board moved to warn Auerbach that the advice he got
from the board's legal division is not necessarily the opinion of the
board itself and that he should not count on it.
State Controller and board Chairwoman Kathleen Connell said the issue
of taxing satellites will become more pressing if President Bush
succeeds in launching his missile defense strategy. She said that
plan, aimed at protecting the nation from enemy missiles, entails the
installation of satellite transmitters along the West Coast.
In some future regulatory process, Connell said, the board will
determine just how far the tax collector can reach into outer space.
Auerbach said he thinks he knows where the issue will land.
"I do believe," he said, "this will eventually end up in the courts."
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19384
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2001 09:19:06 GMT
Subject: Re: Here's an interesting tidbit...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Wed, 11 Jul 2001 17:15:45 GMT, hf_jai@prodigy.net (Jai
Johnson-Pickett) wrote:
>Hi all! Dual purpose here. First, to say we made it home safe and
>sound. It sure was good to see our HF buds again. And special thanks
>to Greg & Beth for putting us up (or was that putting up with us?) and
>to Big Charlie for the same, and for his hosting the Heinlein BD
>party.
Glad you made it home safe, was just about to send an e-mail on that
very subject. We had a good time & the Heinlein BD bash seemed to go
pretty well, at least I didn't hear any complaints.
Jai, think shirt.
Fader
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19385
From: Daryl Davis <valley@epix.net>
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 09:17:46 -0400
Subject: Farnham's Freehold
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
So why is this considered "Science Fiction's Most Controversial Novel"
as it says on the cover blurb on my copy? Nuclear war, racism, class
system, or something else? I'm not familiar with the history of this
work, so if anyone cares to elaborate.
Any other comments about this book?
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19386
From: Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@home.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 14:44:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Farnham's Freehold
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Daryl Davis wrote:
> So why is this considered "Science Fiction's Most Controversial Novel"
> as it says on the cover blurb on my copy? Nuclear war, racism, class
> system, or something else? I'm not familiar with the history of this
> work, so if anyone cares to elaborate.
>
> Any other comments about this book?
Well, you know blurbs..I'm sure at the time it was pretty daring and it
can still raise a few eyebrows which says something.
I would imagine the idea of a nuclear war which decimates the white race
and leaves them as dumbed down slaves, used at best as labour, at worst as
food for their black masters might have bothered some people. Of course,
turn it on its head and it's not so different from a few centuries ago in
many ways.
What Heinlein intended I think ( and this is just my take on it) was to
show that people in power are generally apt to abuse it; skin colour is
irrelevant. He also wanted to rub it in that just because things are one
way for a long time doesn't mean that history won't have a few surprises
in the future ( future history? Hmm..has a ring to it.....<g>)
There is also much discussion over Hugh; is he a typical Heinlein Hero? Is
he deeply flawed? How about his family of misfits, Duke and his mother,
pregnant Karen and her father, the adultery between Hugh and Barbara...
very somber novel IMO.
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19387
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2001 23:01:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Farnham's Freehold
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Jane Davitt" <jdavitt01@home.com> wrote in message
news:3B4F41A5.95BE7AE0@home.com...
> Daryl Davis wrote:
>
> > So why is this considered "Science Fiction's Most Controversial Novel"
> > as it says on the cover blurb on my copy? Nuclear war, racism, class
> > system, or something else? I'm not familiar with the history of this
> > work, so if anyone cares to elaborate.
> >
> > Any other comments about this book?
>
> Well, you know blurbs..I'm sure at the time it was pretty daring and it
> can still raise a few eyebrows which says something.
> I would imagine the idea of a nuclear war which decimates the white race
> and leaves them as dumbed down slaves, used at best as labour, at worst as
> food for their black masters might have bothered some people. Of course,
> turn it on its head and it's not so different from a few centuries ago in
> many ways.
>
> What Heinlein intended I think ( and this is just my take on it) was to
> show that people in power are generally apt to abuse it; skin colour is
> irrelevant. He also wanted to rub it in that just because things are one
> way for a long time doesn't mean that history won't have a few surprises
> in the future ( future history? Hmm..has a ring to it.....<g>)
>
> There is also much discussion over Hugh; is he a typical Heinlein Hero? Is
> he deeply flawed? How about his family of misfits, Duke and his mother,
> pregnant Karen and her father, the adultery between Hugh and Barbara...
> very somber novel IMO.
Perhaps the book is, in part, a portrait of what RAH believed his life would
have been like had he not divorced and married Virginia.
--
William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com and
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19388
From: Daryl Davis <valley@epix.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 10:22:03 -0400
Subject: Re: Farnham's Freehold
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Is Hugh deeply flawed, or just normal? He's Everyman, with his
screwed-up family, and therefore we can relate to him. He's a tragic
hero, a survivor in the face of hardship.
Great stuff.
Jane Davitt wrote:
>
>
> There is also much discussion over Hugh; is he a typical Heinlein Hero? Is
> he deeply flawed? How about his family of misfits, Duke and his mother,
> pregnant Karen and her father, the adultery between Hugh and Barbara...
> very somber novel IMO.
>
> Jane
>
> --
> http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19389
From: Ed Johnson <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com >
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 12:46:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Farnham's Freehold
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Daryl: Welcome to the Heinlein Forum. BTW:
I like what you wrote about Hugh Farnham, well said!
Ed J
On Sat, 14 Jul 2001 10:22:03 -0400, Daryl Davis <valley@epix.net>
wrote:
>
>Is Hugh deeply flawed, or just normal? He's Everyman, with his
>screwed-up family, and therefore we can relate to him. He's a tragic
>hero, a survivor in the face of hardship.
>
>Great stuff.
>
>Jane Davitt wrote:
>>
>>
>> There is also much discussion over Hugh; is he a typical Heinlein Hero? Is
>> he deeply flawed? How about his family of misfits, Duke and his mother,
>> pregnant Karen and her father, the adultery between Hugh and Barbara...
>> very somber novel IMO.
>>
>> Jane
>>
>> --
>> http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19390
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 13:51:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Here's an interesting tidbit...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
And what services is the city of Los Angeles providing to these
satellites to justify taxing them? Serve them right if Hughes moved to
Nevada. Or the Caribbean. Reminds me of the time New York (city or
state; I don't recall for sure) wanted to tax NYSE transactions; they
almost lost the NYSE to New Jersey.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19391
From: Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@home.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:03:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Farnham's Freehold
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Daryl Davis wrote:
> Is Hugh deeply flawed, or just normal? He's Everyman, with his
> screwed-up family, and therefore we can relate to him. He's a tragic
> hero, a survivor in the face of hardship.
>
Maybe he is but to me he is a twisted Heinlein Hero. There's no doubt that he
performs better than most of the population, building the shelter because he
recognises the risk, starting them off well in their new home etc....typical HH
behavior.
But it always goes wrong, like those, "what's wrong with this picture" quizzes.
Something is always slightly off key and he seems warped in many ways.Perhaps
that does make him a tragic hero but I just don't like him much.
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19392
From: Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@home.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 15:05:22 -0400
Subject: Re: Farnham's Freehold
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"William B. Dennis 2nd" wrote:
>
> Perhaps the book is, in part, a portrait of what RAH believed his life would
> have been like had he not divorced and married Virginia.
>
Good point! Perhaps he was exorcising the demons a bit.
Never annoy a writer..they can take revenge in their work so easily.
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19393
From: debrule@citlink.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 19:55:28 GMT
Subject: Re: Farnham's Freehold
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>Maybe he is but to me he is a twisted Heinlein Hero.
Which makes him interesting to me in that in reading "Rocket to the
Morgue" which has a friend of Heinlein's turning RAH into a character
in a mystery, the 'voice' for the RAH character reminded me most of a
combination of Hugh Farnham combined with Jubal Harshaw.
Deb (D.A. Houdek)
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19394
From: Jane Davitt <jdavitt01@home.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 16:49:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Farnham's Freehold
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
> >Maybe he is but to me he is a twisted Heinlein Hero.
>
> Which makes him interesting to me in that in reading "Rocket to the
> Morgue" which has a friend of Heinlein's turning RAH into a character
> in a mystery, the 'voice' for the RAH character reminded me most of a
> combination of Hugh Farnham combined with Jubal Harshaw.
>
I just got hold of that book a few months ago. Fun, as I'm both a
Heinlein and mystery fan. Lots of little in jokes which I got for
Heinlein but I probably missed lots for the other characters as I don't
know enough about them.
I'll have to look at it again to see about that; Jubal maybe but what
bits are Hugh like in Austin Carter?
Jane
--
http://www.heinleinsociety.org
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19395
From: Daryl Davis <valley@epix.net>
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 17:59:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Farnham's Freehold
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Thanks for the welcome! Looking forward to many discussions!
Ed Johnson wrote:
>
> Daryl: Welcome to the Heinlein Forum. BTW:
> I like what you wrote about Hugh Farnham, well said!
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19396
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2001 18:37:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Here's an interesting tidbit...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Jai--
Thank you. The party and the weekend were among the most enjoyable
I have had in a while. We had Greg and Beth, Jai, myself, Wayne Morgan
and his wife, Doc's family (minus Doc), and his sister in law and her
family. In addition, my sister and her husband dropped by. We had a
nice fire, Greg's ribs, BBQ chicken, my potato salad and chip dip and
the usual accessories. Hot dogs were available as were ingredients for
semores. We all were having such a good time that we totally forgot to
get to the watermelon......
Among the highlights of the evening was a tour of "my new" house.
A house down the street went up for sale on a Sunday (July 1st) and by
Monday night my offer had been accepted. It is a three bedroom 1 1/2
story house, built in 1940, with a rec. room (or apartment) with stove
and refrigerator in the finished basement. It sits on almost 2/3 of an
acre. Eat you heart out, you Washington and California people -- the
cost was five figures plus a dollar. This is not to live in; this is an
investment and rental. The paperwork and approvals are done; closing is
set. And my first tenants will be -- Greg and Beth.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
Dogs have masters; cats have staff.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19397
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 01:01:41 GMT
Subject: Heinlein Hero" T-Shirt
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
If you've got one, you can certainly make friends at a con! Went to
Shore Leave this afternoon, didn't really do much but walked around
the Dealers Area. I got one guy who said "it's nice to know people
are reading the good stuff" and a few others who said stuff along the
lines of "Cool shirt".
Not that it's all that hard to make friends at cons. <G>
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19398
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2001 21:57:30 -0700
Subject: Re: "Heinlein Hero" T-Shirt
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
JT wrote:
> If you've got one, you can certainly make friends at a con! Went to
> Shore Leave this afternoon, didn't really do much but walked around
> the Dealers Area. I got one guy who said "it's nice to know people
> are reading the good stuff" and a few others who said stuff along the
> lines of "Cool shirt".
Audrey and I wore them most of Westercon, but attracted no comments.
Westercon seems to be very regional and fantasy oriented, though.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19399
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 16:45:18 -0700
Subject: Re: "Heinlein Hero" T-Shirt
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3B52743A.3203D9F7@rcsis.com...
> JT wrote:
> > If you've got one, you can certainly make friends at a con! Went to
> > Shore Leave this afternoon, didn't really do much but walked around
> > the Dealers Area. I got one guy who said "it's nice to know people
> > are reading the good stuff" and a few others who said stuff along the
> > lines of "Cool shirt".
>
> Audrey and I wore them most of Westercon, but attracted no comments.
> Westercon seems to be very regional and fantasy oriented, though.
All Pacific Northwest cons are very regional. Something about being in the
Pacific Northwest seems to keep us separated from the rest of the
ImagiNation. Standard Fanglish is almost never spoken, for example. Most fen
know what a 'zine in, but almost none know a fanac.
Filksinger
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19400
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2001 17:24:22 -0700
Subject: Re: "Heinlein Hero" T-Shirt
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
> "James Gifford" <jgifford@rcsis.com> wrote: in message
> > Audrey and I wore them most of Westercon, but attracted no comments.
> > Westercon seems to be very regional and fantasy oriented, though.
> All Pacific Northwest cons are very regional. Something about being in the
> Pacific Northwest seems to keep us separated from the rest of the
> ImagiNation. Standard Fanglish is almost never spoken, for example. Most fen
> know what a 'zine in, but almost none know a fanac.
Well, I would have expected Westercon to pull more. It was very small -
about 1300, smaller than most OryCons! - and seemed to consist mostly of
Portland area fans. A local told me that even the Seattle contingent was
barely present.
But it was fun. Nice warmup for Worldcon.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19401
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 01:45:37 -0400
Subject: Oh Hugo voters...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
re-posted from sff.cons.worldcon:
We've had a technical problem with online voting for the Hugo and Retro
Hugo awards. We recognize that some ballots have been lost. Any online
votes sent prior to July 12, 2001 at 7:20pm EDT may be lost. If in doubt,
please cast another ballot.
The deadline for all ballots has been extended to 11:59pm Eastern
Daylight Time on Wednesday, July 25, 2001. All ballots must be submitted
electronically or postmarked by that time and date to be counted.
Please don't forget to sign all mail-in ballots!
Please also spread the word about the deadline extension to friends,
clubs, newsgroups, etc.
Any questions about this subject, or about the Hugo or Retro Hugo
Awards, can be emailed to hugos@milphil.org
The Millennium Philcon apologizes for any inconvenience that this may
cause.
Saul Jaffe & Rick Katze
Hugo Co-Administrators
The Millennium Philcon
hugos@milphil.org
http://www.milphil.org/hugos/
Vote Early, Vote Often!!
--
WJaKe
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19402
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 01:47:59 -0400
Subject: Re: "Heinlein Hero" T-Shirt
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I believe I was the first person modeling an HH t-shirt at last year's
Worldcon, and happily pointed people to where they could buy one. Always
happy to help the Cause!
--
WJaKe
Have you voted for the Hugo's yet?
http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19403
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2001 09:24:51 -0700
Subject: Re: "Heinlein Hero" T-Shirt
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"William J. Keaton" wrote:
> I believe I was the first person modeling an HH t-shirt at last year's
> Worldcon, and happily pointed people to where they could buy one.
> Always happy to help the Cause!
Well, the t-shirt was "just 'cause."
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19404
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2001 11:52:58 -0700
Subject: Happy Space Day!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Happy Space Day, all.
As a better man than I once wrote:
"The arching sky is calling
Spacers back to their trade.
_All hands! Stand by! Free falling!_
And the lights below us fade.
Out ride the children of Terra
Far drives the thundering jet,
Up leaps the race of Humans,
Out, far, and onward yet--"
(May Heinlein's shade forgive my minor changes...)
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19405
From: SpaceCadet <cadozo@planet-save.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:37:24 -0500
Subject: CD ROM Question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
A question for all you up-to-date Techies and
Techettes:
I'm going to be buying a CD ROM soon. I'm planning
to get one that can read & write. Sam's Club has
an HP R/W CD ROM for $199. Is this a good price?
Does HP make ok CD ROM's? Are all CD ROM's the
same (like when Tandem made all the floppies and
Western made all the hard drives), or is there a
good, better, best list? How much should I plan to
spend.
I have a Pentium 350 MHz processor. My primary use
of the CD ROM will be playing music CD's. But I
like the idea of being able to burn CD's as well.
Thanks for your input, Carol
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19406
From: Ed Johnson <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com >
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 17:06:59 -0400
Subject: Re: CD ROM Question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Carol: Do you know just which model this HP CDRW is? Is it an
external device and if so is it 'USB' or does it use an old parallel
cable attachment?
I have heard good things in the past about HP CD drives and I
installed one, an HP internal unit, at work that has run flawlessly
now for more than a year.
It couldn't hurt to look up CDRW drives and try to find a comparison
test on the Web (ZDNET, CNET for 2 examples.)
I plan to buy my first CDRW real-soon-now and it will be a Yamaha
16x10x40x internal. (If I ever get around to buying the components
for my next system, that is.)
Ed J
On Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:37:24 -0500, SpaceCadet
<cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote:
>A question for all you up-to-date Techies and
>Techettes:
>
>I'm going to be buying a CD ROM soon. I'm planning
>to get one that can read & write. Sam's Club has
>an HP R/W CD ROM for $199. Is this a good price?
>Does HP make ok CD ROM's? Are all CD ROM's the
>same (like when Tandem made all the floppies and
>Western made all the hard drives), or is there a
>good, better, best list? How much should I plan to
>spend.
>
>I have a Pentium 350 MHz processor. My primary use
>of the CD ROM will be playing music CD's. But I
>like the idea of being able to burn CD's as well.
>
>Thanks for your input, Carol
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19407
From: William B. Dennis 2nd" <dwilliam16@home.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 20:46:09 -0500
Subject: Re: CD ROM Question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com > wrote in message
news:farjlt830nm11g1cpg1e926mjsek8pu6on@4ax.com...
> Carol: Do you know just which model this HP CDRW is? Is it an
> external device and if so is it 'USB' or does it use an old parallel
> cable attachment?
> I have heard good things in the past about HP CD drives and I
> installed one, an HP internal unit, at work that has run flawlessly
> now for more than a year.
> It couldn't hurt to look up CDRW drives and try to find a comparison
> test on the Web (ZDNET, CNET for 2 examples.)
> I plan to buy my first CDRW real-soon-now and it will be a Yamaha
> 16x10x40x internal. (If I ever get around to buying the components
> for my next system, that is.)
>
> Ed J
>
>
> On Sat, 21 Jul 2001 14:37:24 -0500, SpaceCadet
> <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote:
>
> >A question for all you up-to-date Techies and
> >Techettes:
> >
> >I'm going to be buying a CD ROM soon. I'm planning
> >to get one that can read & write. Sam's Club has
> >an HP R/W CD ROM for $199. Is this a good price?
> >Does HP make ok CD ROM's? Are all CD ROM's the
> >same (like when Tandem made all the floppies and
> >Western made all the hard drives), or is there a
> >good, better, best list? How much should I plan to
> >spend.
> >
> >I have a Pentium 350 MHz processor. My primary use
> >of the CD ROM will be playing music CD's. But I
> >like the idea of being able to burn CD's as well.
> >
> >Thanks for your input, Carol
>
>
HP (Hewlett Packard) is a respectable company, although I have no experience
with their CR ROMs. If you are going to buy an internal drive, hire someone
to put it in, or get a competent friend to do so. A drive unit is much more
complicated than installing new RAM or a new card. If you are going to do it
yourself, buy an external unit that plugs in through a USB cable, but be
aware than even these are not fool-proof. If you do not have Windows 98 or
ME or 2000, don't even THINK of getting a USB model. You can get a cheapo
CDRW for less than $100 if you shop at Wal Mart of one of the superstores,
but I wouldn't advice it. You do get what you pay for.
--
William B. Dennis 2nd
http://billscontent.tripod.com and
http://heinlein-libertarian.tripod.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19408
From: James Gifford <jgifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2001 20:39:18 -0700
Subject: Re: CD ROM Question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
SpaceCadet wrote:
> I'm going to be buying a CD ROM soon. I'm planning
> to get one that can read & write. Sam's Club has
> an HP R/W CD ROM for $199. Is this a good price?
Yes, it's a good price, but you can probably match it at area computer
stores, and get a better unit and installation advice to boot.
Sam's tends to carry "last year's models" that they can get cheap. Not
that there's anything wrong with their VCRs, TVs, DVD players and major
PC accessories, but they are often behind the times in features and
value.
You can often come close to their prices for more current hardware if
you shop carefully. CDRW drives are a commodity item; shop aggressively
and do your homework on the models.
--
| James Gifford - Nitrosyncretic Press - gifford@nitrosyncretic.com |
| See http://www.nitrosyncretic.com for the Heinlein FAQ & more |
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19409
From: kevin mcgillicuddy" <kmcgillicuddy@austin.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2001 09:02:13 -0500
Subject: Re: CD ROM Question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Carol, if you're still living in Austin, I'd recommend you check out Altex
up on North IH-35 (around Braker). They'll give you good advice and are a
good source for reliable equipment at a reasonable price. I'm not a techie,
but my son got a CD burner there and it has worked out fine for him. The IS
guy at my company also swears by them, FWIW.
McKevin
"SpaceCadet" <cadozo@planet-save.com> wrote in message
news:3B59D9F4.9A0C0EB3@planet-save.com...
> A question for all you up-to-date Techies and
> Techettes:
>
> I'm going to be buying a CD ROM soon. I'm planning
> to get one that can read & write. Sam's Club has
> an HP R/W CD ROM for $199. Is this a good price?
> Does HP make ok CD ROM's? Are all CD ROM's the
> same (like when Tandem made all the floppies and
> Western made all the hard drives), or is there a
> good, better, best list? How much should I plan to
> spend.
>
> I have a Pentium 350 MHz processor. My primary use
> of the CD ROM will be playing music CD's. But I
> like the idea of being able to burn CD's as well.
>
> Thanks for your input, Carol
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19410
From: Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 12:57:48 -0700
Subject: Futile Care or Euthanasia?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
An article by Wesley J. Smith was posted in another newsgroup that I follow.
The following link is to the most reputable (for this group<eg>) article I
could find. The whole mess disturbs me.
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment103100c.shtml
--
Later,
`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19411
From: Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:54:08 -0700
Subject: Another stupid tech question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I've been using C|Net's CatchUp to check for out dated drivers, new versions
of my favorite shareware, etc. Probably ever since it came out. Now it
tells me that there's a new driver out there for my nVIDIA graphics card.
Ok, fine which card is it? Detonator or Creative? Or do I even I have an
nVIDIA card at all. I can't find the info and I don't feel like wasting
another 100 minutes of phone card to find something that should be on hard
copy in 16 point type.
Excuse me, I haven't been well and this is just one more frustration. Could
one of you nice people please tell me how to get this thing to tell me what
it has under the hood?
I think I tried the obvious the avenues of inquiry. BTW, WinMe is a giant
step backwards. I have had to take everything out of the systray to make
this thing run right at 128 Mb RAM.
--
Later,
`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19412
From: John Teehan <tumble@ids.net>
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 18:55:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Futile Care or Euthanasia?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Mike Resnick's "Hothouse Flowers" is available at
http://www.fictionwise.com/ebooks/eBook15.htm
It was a Hugo nominee and is certainly on the topic of issues on
euthanasia.
--John Teehan
Lorrita Morgan wrote:
>
> An article by Wesley J. Smith was posted in another newsgroup that I follow.
> The following link is to the most reputable (for this group<eg>) article I
> could find. The whole mess disturbs me.
> http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/comment103100c.shtml
>
> --
> Later,
>
> `rita
> Almost live from Finley, WA.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 19413
From: Ed Johnson <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com >
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2001 21:41:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Another stupid tech question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
`rita: Hope that you are feeling better by the time that this
reaches you.
In a perfect world, (and a Windows 95 or 98 system) you could right
mouse click on the "My Computer" icon and select "Properties".
click on the "Device Manager" tab. Open (click on the "+" next to)
the "Display adapters" entry. Now, here's where the perfect world
wish comes in: the actual graphics card might (Might) be clearly
listed. (my old Diamond Viper V550 is shown). I bought it and
installed it by hand, so that from the Retail box I know it is an
nVidia card. Hopefully, your on your system, this will yield a name
to do further research on.
Ed J
On Mon, 23 Jul 2001 14:54:08 -0700, "Lorrita Morgan"
<lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:
>I've been using C|Net's CatchUp to check for out dated drivers, new versions
>of my favorite shareware, etc. Probably ever since it came out. Now it
>tells me that there's a new driver out there for my nVIDIA graphics card.
>
>Ok, fine which card is it? Detonator or Creative? Or do I even I have an
>nVIDIA card at all. I can't find the info and I don't feel like wasting
>another 100 minutes of phone card to find something that should be on hard
>copy in 16 point type.
>
>Excuse me, I haven't been well and this is just one more frustration. Could
>one of you nice people please tell me how to get this thing to tell me what
>it has under the hood?
>
>I think I tried the obvious the avenues of inquiry. BTW, WinMe is a giant
>step backwards. I have had to take everything out of the systray to make
>this thing run right at 128 Mb RAM.
------------------------------------------------------------
============================================================
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