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Archive of:   sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by:  webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Tue, 24 Apr 2001 16:51:36
============================================================

Article 18469
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 04:32:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I believe I did above, actually. With the ram upgrade I recommended
(from 64 to 128 mb) it comes to $999.
That's before tac and shipping of course; I don't know whether or not
sales tax would apply but assuming it does that's about another $70
and I would guesstimate shipping at about $50-$100 (hard to say as
they may have some deal I don't know about; but I'm sure that
monitor's pretty heavy.)

>with specifics.  (FS and Bob:  I you turn up any name brand machines
>for under $1k, please let `rita know. I'll do the same.)

Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com
www.bluepoet.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18470
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Feb 2001 02:36:50 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Outing
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com> wrote in message
news:3a7c6084.1961736@news.sff.net...
> Jake:  Is "Dark Passage" the one about Bogie as a small boat's
> captain asked to smuggle refugees?  I vaguely recall seeing one like
> that.
>

From www.imdb.com

"Bogart plays a man convicted of murdering his wife who escapes from prison
in order to prove his innocence. Bogart finds that his features are too well
known, and is forced to seek some illicit backroom plastic surgery. The
entire pre-knife part of the film is shot from a Bogart's-eye-view, with us
seeing the fugitive for the first time as he starts to recuperate from the
operation in the apartment of a sympathetic young artist (played by Bacall)
for whom he soon finds affection. But what he's really after is revenge."

I haven't seen this one, so I can't comment/


--
WJaKe

http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18471
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 08:16:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Lorrita--

     I have a Lexmark Z-31 and have been extremely happy with it.  It is
reasonably fast, very good resolution (capable of 1200 x 1200) and paper
handling (I even print my checks on it).  The differences in the
Z-series printers are whether it comes delivered with both color and
black cartridges (or just color)  and whether it uses the USB or
parallel or both connections.

     I set up one of these for my (Tulsa) sister in law (I think hers
was a Z-21) who is not very computer literate and she is very happy with
it.

     The cartridges last reasonably long (I'm about half empty on my
first set; I have been using the printer for several months), but they
are expensive.  But there are also refill kits available for them.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18472
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 23:49:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 05 Feb 2001 08:16:56 -0500, Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
wrote:

>Z-series printers are whether it comes delivered with both color and
>black cartridges (or just color)  and whether it uses the USB or
>parallel or both connections.

It's always worth getting a mode with black AND color cartridges, IMO.
I didn't on my first ColorJet and I regretted not spending the money.
If you set the printer to draft mode as default (and just switch to
better modes for individual jobs), they last a pretty long time.

>are expensive.  But there are also refill kits available for them.

Refills are not worth the effort, IMO.  Maybe I'm just too much of a
klutz, but I never had good results with refills, or recycled toner
cartridges for laser printers, for that matter.

JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18473
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 23:49:23 GMT
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 22:23:56 -0500, Gordon G. Sollars
<gsollars@pobox.com> wrote:

>Oh, go ahead, youngster, just say that you're bored by all the old folks 
>jabbering around here!  ;-)
>
LOL!  The information-to-jabber ratio here is pretty good. I'll worry
more when we start getting requests for help on how to set the fonts
to larger sizes. ;)

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18474
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 17:33:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Heinlein Society
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT wrote:

> I came upon www.heinleinsociety.com today and was quite surprised.
> Apparently this endeavor is sanctioned by Mrs. H., and on paper it
> seems like a neat thing.  Truth be told, I had talked about doing the
> same thing with the HF years ago, and never got around to getting
> serious about it. (WJaKe probably remembers the long conversation we
> had about it, I think on the way to or from the OR Gathering....)
>
> Anyway, I'm a little leery of the membership fees.  Other than
> webhosting, I'm not sure what the expenses of the group are/should be.
> I notice Bill Patterson and David Silver are a part of the Society's
> leaders and that it has sprung from alt.fan.heinlein.
>
> David, can you give us a little more background on where things are at
> with the HS?
>
> Pet Peeve...it SHOULD be heinleinsociety.org ;)
>
> JT

Hi, JT,

Sorry for the delay. I've been remiss in checking this newsgroup the past
week or so, and just read your request. Busy, but no real excuse. I've
asked a fellow named Tawn Johnson (tawn3@aol.com) to visit this newsgroup
and reply to you, as he is a founding member of The Heinlein Society's
board and chairman of its membership committee, and deserves a change to
take the first crack at your questions. I agree, btw, it should be a
".org" since we are developing an IRS 501(c)(3) full charitable
exemption--that takes time; but the domain was authorized by the original
founders and registered by someone before I was asked to join the Society
and accepted appointment on the Board.

Jane Davitt's reply has a lot of information in it; and the chat
discussions before the Society's formation held over on AIM are very
useful to read. Will Jennings can also answer some of your questions, I'm
certain.

If you've anything specific you'd like to ask, I'll do my best to answer
specifically while Tawn figures out how to access the site over here.

Regards,

David

P.S. Yes, Mrs. Virginia Heinlein is an active member of the Board; and
she has been since inception.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18475
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Feb 2001 17:45:48 -0800
Subject: Re: Heinlein Society
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:

> In article <3A6E4761.BCC7EC53@netcom.ca>, ddavitt writes...
> ...
> > If you go to the logs of the AIM chats ( why don't any of you people ever
> > show up? Be great to see you!)
>
> Well, in my case, it is because I dislike the chat format.  One of the
> great things about e-mail and newsgroups is that I can participate at my
> convenience, and think about and edit my replies before sending
> (appearances to the contrary notwithstanding  ;-) ).  Of these, the first
> is the most important, and I can't see any good reason to give it up in
> favor of real-time text communication.
>
> I am actually puzzled by the chat phenomenon.  The topics of the chats
> are often quite good.  Why not carry out such discussions in a newsgroup
> format?
>
> --
> Gordon Sollars
> gsollars@pobox.com

Hi, Gordon,

In addition to what Jane Davitt mentions as helpful to actually ensuring that
the chats are really a useful expenditure of time, there is a certain synergy
that sometimes takes place in chat, even with the delay in real time--and
you'd be surprised how fast thoughts can fly in a well-directed chat, that can
be very helpful in roughing out thoughts--it doesn't always happen every
meeting; but sometimes it can result in surprisingly perceptive insights.

We've also found the informality useful in helping new readers become
enthusiastic fans. You and I are of an age where we started reading him young,
and every one as they issued from the publishers. It can be surprising to some
readers how many works there are, and how they interrelate.

David



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18476
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 11:06:54 -0800
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.14e61c4b5e1a6a4498974a@news.sff.net...
> In article <3a7b274a.0@news.sff.net>, Filksinger writes...
> ...
> > What do you mean?
>
> I was jokingly asking if we /ever/ understand political events.  It was
> simply your turn to be the straight man.

I thought of that one, but for some reason forgot to write it down. Odd,
since that was my number one guess for what you meant.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18477
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 11:12:50 -0800
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com> wrote in message
news:3a7db0ba.9628952@news.sff.net...
> Filksinger:  Is there a clinical name for the type of  'memory'
> being discussed here?  One where a traumatic event has occured and
> your immediate surroundings at the moment of your hearing the news
> are etched into your memory?

I'm not certain. NLP refers to it as "one-shot learning" or "one-exposure
learning", but I don't know that it is exactly a clinical term, and NLP
terms are often, possibly usually, not the same as the clinical terms.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18478
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 11:16:39 -0800
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3a7f3a98.186022646@news.sff.net...
> On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 22:23:56 -0500, Gordon G. Sollars
> <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >Oh, go ahead, youngster, just say that you're bored by all the old folks
> >jabbering around here!  ;-)
> >
> LOL!  The information-to-jabber ratio here is pretty good. I'll worry
> more when we start getting requests for help on how to set the fonts
> to larger sizes. ;)

In Outlook Express, click Tools, Options. Select the Read tab. Click the
Fonts button. Select the size.

:)

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18479
From: Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 16:46:23 -0500
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Psychologists call it "flashbulb" memory, and it isn't very reliable, and
your amount of certainty about whether or not something happened is
unrelated to the likelihood that it actually happened.  This study was
actually done the day after the challenger exploded, a psych instructor had
people write down what they were doing, then years later (5 years?) asked
them what they were doing, and how certain they were.  It looked like about
50% right, but the people who were very sure were no more likely to be
correct (i.e. match their previous account) than people who were only
somewhat certain.

Frank Fujita
Associate Professor of Psychology, IUSB

"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com> wrote in message
news:3a7db0ba.9628952@news.sff.net...
> Filksinger:  Is there a clinical name for the type of  'memory'
> being discussed here?  One where a traumatic event has occured and
> your immediate surroundings at the moment of your hearing the news
> are etched into your memory?
>  Or of seeing the news:  many people actually witnessed the
> Challenger explosion on TV.   I recall walking into the Drafting
> room at work to go to my boss's cubicle.  There was an unusual
> silence in that large room of a dozen or more drafting tables.
> Several people were standing around one radio with very serious
> looks on their faces.  The radio announcer then repeated that the
> Space Shuttle Challenger had just blown up shortly after take off.
>
> Also for me:
> Being in High School and hearing about JFK. We were sent home after
> the announcement was made over the PA system.
> Moon Landing
> Bobby Kennedy
> Desert Shield turned to Desert Storm
>
> Ed J



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18480
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:30:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Heinlein Society
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 05 Feb 2001 17:33:18 -0800, "David M. Silver"
<agplusone@loop.com> wrote:

>If you've anything specific you'd like to ask, I'll do my best to answer
>specifically while Tawn figures out how to access the site over here.
>
Basically, my only question is the difference between the two fee
levels of member.  Are there voting rights differences, or what?  I
emailed the address posted on the web last week with the same question
and haven't had a response back yet.

If the only difference is honorary, that's fine, but that's an
important piece of info. for the website.

It's a great idea, and with Mrs. H's backing it should "go places".
<G>

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18481
From: postmaster@sff.net
Date: 23 Feb 2001 21:51:36 GMT
Subject: No articles presently in newsgroup.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This newsgroup has no articles yet; however, if
you were to post something, it would.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18482
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 15:53:31 -0800
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu> wrote in message
news:3a8070cf.0@news.sff.net...
> Psychologists call it "flashbulb" memory, and it isn't very reliable, and
> your amount of certainty about whether or not something happened is
> unrelated to the likelihood that it actually happened.  This study was
> actually done the day after the challenger exploded, a psych instructor
had
> people write down what they were doing, then years later (5 years?) asked
> them what they were doing, and how certain they were.  It looked like
about
> 50% right, but the people who were very sure were no more likely to be
> correct (i.e. match their previous account) than people who were only
> somewhat certain.

Phobia originating events are sometimes good examples of "flashbulb" events,
though sometimes only the _reaction_ is retained. You are six, and someone
throws a snake at your head. Years later, you can't remember the event, but
when you see a snake, you react like a six-year-old who has a snake thrown
at his head.

The "10 minute phobia cure" used by NLP practitioners involves guided
imagery involving the "first time" you had the phobia, or at least a time
when it really got to you. However, when teaching the cure in their
workshops and books, the originators of NLP made a point of telling you that
not only was accurate memory of the event unnecessary, but, in their
opinion, impossible.

Filksinger

Filksinger





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18483
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 23:03:12 -0500
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a8070cf.0@news.sff.net>, Frank Fujita writes...
> Psychologists call it "flashbulb" memory, and it isn't very reliable, and
> your amount of certainty about whether or not something happened is
> unrelated to the likelihood that it actually happened.  This study was
> actually done the day after the challenger exploded, a psych instructor had
> people write down what they were doing, then years later (5 years?) asked
> them what they were doing, and how certain they were.  It looked like about
> 50% right, but the people who were very sure were no more likely to be
> correct (i.e. match their previous account) than people who were only
> somewhat certain.

It really bothers me that psychologists are doing this kind of testing on 
people.  I can remember exactly where I was the first time I heard about 
this sort of thing.
 
-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18484
From: Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 3 Feb 2001 11:57:56 -0800
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Thank you Filksinger and Bob.  You've given me a lot to think about and
pointed out some things I didn't know were out there.

I haven't made time to go look at computers yet.  At this rate it will be
the end March before work and my life let me find time.  (I'm only supposed
to be working 10 hours a week but I think I've been averaging 30.  I need to
have a serious talk with my client and my pastor/boss before I get too sick
to work.)


--
`rita
Almost live from Finley, Washington




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18485
From: Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 20:47:27 -0800
Subject: Re: A Major Outing
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ed Johnson wrote in message <3a7ce422.35660360@news.sff.net>...
|Carol:   Thanks for refreshing my memory. (Gosh: was she only 17 in
|that old flick?  I don't blame Bogart for falling for her; sigh...)
|That must be the movie where she gives him directions on how to
|whistle <g>.
|
|Ed J (who Does like old movies & movie trivia <G>)
|
Yep!
"You Know how to whistle don't you, Steve?  You just put your lips together
and blow."  tosses him the matches and walks out the door.

He lights cigarette, blows out the smoke, and whistles.

--
`rita
Almost live from Finley, Washington




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18486
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:51:26 -0800
Subject: Re: Heinlein Society
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT wrote:

> On Mon, 05 Feb 2001 17:33:18 -0800, "David M. Silver"
> <agplusone@loop.com> wrote:
>
> >If you've anything specific you'd like to ask, I'll do my best to answer
> >specifically while Tawn figures out how to access the site over here.
> >
> Basically, my only question is the difference between the two fee
> levels of member.  Are there voting rights differences, or what?  I
> emailed the address posted on the web last week with the same question
> and haven't had a response back yet.
>

About the e-mail address, please forward that or any other e-mail you may
care to send to "agplusone@loop.com" or "agplusone@aol.com" as there
recently has been a replacement named as the person serving as Secretary of
the Board of Directors. I'll reply with greater detail ASAP (meaning as soon
as it's clarified formally by the Board), but initially the notion is to
afford a means of initial membership for students and those otherwise truly
unable to afford full membership. Details are being ironed out. There will
also shortly be a new Post Office Box, but mail sent to the old one will be
forwarded.

>
> If the only difference is honorary, that's fine, but that's an
> important piece of info. for the website.
>

I agree, but in the formative phase, sometimes precision isn't possible
until things shake down. For example, as we are a non-profit corporate
entity, we have to make a decision on such things as whether full voting
rights for elections of directors would be conferred upon 'honorary' or less
than full subscription members. That's one of the major detail to be worked
out and set forth in Bylaws. Comment?

>
> It's a great idea, and with Mrs. H's backing it should "go places".
> <G>
>
> JT

We sincerely hope so! When do I see your check? <veg>

David M. Silver
Secretary, Board of Directors
The Heinlein Society



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18487
From: Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 14:45:24 -0500
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.14ea930b48c2efc698974d@news.sff.net...
> In article <3a8070cf.0@news.sff.net>, Frank Fujita writes...
> > It looked like about
> > 50% right, but the people who were very sure were no more likely to be
> > correct (i.e. match their previous account) than people who were only
> > somewhat certain.
> It really bothers me that psychologists are doing this kind of testing on
> people.  I can remember exactly where I was the first time I heard about
> this sort of thing.

I also can remember exactly where I was and what I was doing.  So which one
of us is right?  If it really bothers you--there are alternative
explanations, one is that the students didn't remember well the next day,
because they were in shock and hadn't had time to process the events.  Or
maybe they were lying the first time, or the second time.

But it gets worse, psychologists can implant whole memories (shades of Total
Recall).  Elizabeth Loftus brings undergraduates to her lab and has them
write down the names and addresses of four people that knew the student when
she or he was 5 years old.  She then mails a questionnaire to each of the
people listed.  She asks each person to provide a story that is memorable to
them, but that the student might not remember, and certainly isn't a family
story.  If she gets either three or four responses, she calls the student
back, and tells these stories to the students.  If there are four stories,
one is removed and replaced by a standard story that is told to all of the
students.  If there are only three stories, the fourth one is added.  The
story goes thusly:
    You went with your mother to the mall shortly before Christmas.  You got
lost, and a big bearded man in a lumberjack shirt and suspenders found you.
He took you to the information booth, where they paged your mother.  You
were crying, and the big man bought you some ice cream which you ate while
waiting for your mother to pick you up.  Your mother was very worried about
you, and almost started crying when she grabbed you.
    Loftus then asks the students if they remember any of the stories.
Provided stories are endorsed about 2/3rds of the time, and the standard
story is endorsed about 1/3rd of the time.  Some students are sure that the
standard story is true of them, and some can provide additional details of
the event.  Students that are high in a personality trait called absorption
are most likely to endorse the standard story.  Loftus uses this as evidence
that some accusations of repressed childhood ritual sexual/satanic abuse are
false.

While the standard response of scientific psychologists is to denigrate NLP,
I'm sufficiently ignorant of their claims and evidence to do so.  Indeed, I
can think of several reasons why psychologists might be motivated to
disparage NLP having nothing to do with the quality of evidence.  I've found
NLP practitioners to be reasonable people.

I hope it'll be okay if I become just plain Frank Fujita again.

Frank



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18488
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 17:11:21 -0400
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On the theory that the only stupid question is the one that doesn't get
asked...

Frank Fujita wrote:

> While the standard response of scientific psychologists is to denigrate NLP,
> I'm sufficiently ignorant of their claims and evidence to do so.  Indeed, I
> can think of several reasons why psychologists might be motivated to
> disparage NLP having nothing to do with the quality of evidence.  I've found
> NLP practitioners to be reasonable people.

(This is for you *or* Filk, whoever feels like answering) What's NLP?

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18489
From: Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:26:37 -0500
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I don't know much, but:

Neuro Linguistic Programming is a type of therapy that is claimed to be
amazingly effective for some disorders (phobias being one).  Practitioners
feel that scientists have an obligation to take them seriously and do their
own studies to supplement their therapeutic claims.  Scientists (in general)
find the claims too outrageous to put effort into trying to confirm.  The
only encounters I've seen between the two groups have been hostile and
accusatory.  As a particular scientist, I'm not interested in attacking
anyone, much less anyone in this group.

And I'm sure it isn't a dumb question.

Frank Fujita

"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3A81B9F7.46BDF93E@ix.netcom.com...
> On the theory that the only stupid question is the one that doesn't get
> asked...
>
> Frank Fujita wrote:
>
> > While the standard response of scientific psychologists is to denigrate
NLP,
> > I'm sufficiently ignorant of their claims and evidence to do so.
Indeed, I
> > can think of several reasons why psychologists might be motivated to
> > disparage NLP having nothing to do with the quality of evidence.  I've
found
> > NLP practitioners to be reasonable people.
>
> (This is for you *or* Filk, whoever feels like answering) What's NLP?
>
> -JovBill
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18490
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Wed, 07 Feb 2001 23:31:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Heinlein Society
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Tue, 06 Feb 2001 23:51:26 -0800, "David M. Silver"
<agplusone@loop.com> wrote:

>We sincerely hope so! When do I see your check? <veg>
>
When the board is able to  tell me what the minimum rate for a
membership is for certain. ;)

At this stage I'm more inclined to support in non-monetary ways, but I
realize you need the scratch to get started...any good endeavour
always does.

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18491
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 17:40:24 -0800
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.14ea930b48c2efc698974d@news.sff.net...
<snip>
>
> It really bothers me that psychologists are doing this kind of testing on
> people.  I can remember exactly where I was the first time I heard about
> this sort of thing.

Why? Does it make you uncomfortable to think that you might be
misremembering, or do you think they are wrong, or do you think it is a
waste of effort, or something else?

Filksigner



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18492
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 18:25:43 -0800
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu> wrote in message
news:3a81a608.0@news.sff.net...

> While the standard response of scientific psychologists is to denigrate
NLP,
> I'm sufficiently ignorant of their claims and evidence to do so.  Indeed,
I
> can think of several reasons why psychologists might be motivated to
> disparage NLP having nothing to do with the quality of evidence.  I've
found
> NLP practitioners to be reasonable people.

I like it, because some of its most basic claims are readily demonstrable,
and show considerable value. I know I am not competent to use their
techniques, but on a  number of very cautious occasions tested some of the
techniques, and they were frighteningly effective.

As for why they are disparraged, there are multiple reasons. I'll go into
some detail elsewhere.

> I hope it'll be okay if I become just plain Frank Fujita again.

Works for me. I'm glad to have you regardless of what you call yourself.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18493
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:31:52 -0500
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a81f90f.0@news.sff.net>, Filksinger writes...
> 
> "Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.14ea930b48c2efc698974d@news.sff.net...
> <snip>
> >
> > It really bothers me that psychologists are doing this kind of testing on
> > people.  I can remember exactly where I was the first time I heard about
> > this sort of thing.
> 
> Why? Does it make you uncomfortable to think that you might be
> misremembering, or do you think they are wrong, or do you think it is a
> waste of effort, or something else?

OK, OK, it's like this.  We are talking about events that make some 
serious impression on us and how we remember exactly where we were when 
they happened.  Frank comes along and tells us that psychologists have 
shown we really don't remember where we were very well at all.  Then I 
say that some event really bothered me - that is, makes a serious 
impression on me - and I remember exactly where I was, AND THE EVENT IS 
HEARING ABOUT PSYCHOLOGISTS TESTING WHETHER WE REMEMBER WHERE WE WERE 
WHEN THE EVENTS OCCUR!!

HA! HO! HO!  I am just killing myself here!!

-- 
Gordon "I say, I say, it's a joke, son" Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18494
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:01:33 -0800
Subject: What is NLP?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I am going to post a long and overblown message on this topic. Sorry.

"Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu> wrote in message
news:3a81cb99.0@news.sff.net...
> I don't know much, but:
>
> Neuro Linguistic Programming is a type of therapy that is claimed to be
> amazingly effective for some disorders (phobias being one).

I have personally done it for other people's phobias. It is very effective.

>  Practitioners
> feel that scientists have an obligation to take them seriously and do
their
> own studies to supplement their therapeutic claims.  Scientists (in
general)
> find the claims too outrageous to put effort into trying to confirm.

It is also claimed by at least one of the founders that an insurance company
that investigated his methods of treating drug and alcohol abuse refuses to
publish the results, because it would ruin their credibility.

>  The
> only encounters I've seen between the two groups have been hostile and
> accusatory.  As a particular scientist, I'm not interested in attacking
> anyone, much less anyone in this group.
>
> And I'm sure it isn't a dumb question.

Agreed. What NLP is is something that many people who use NLP cannot seem to
agree on.

NLP started as a set of techniques for extracting information from
theraputic clients while gaining raport with them, so as to make them more
likely to impliment your suggestions. Later, tools were added, including
some that were surprisingly and undeniably effective. I personally have done
the 10-minute phobia cure on about 8 people. I probably took more than 10
minutes, but not much more, and the three I still know _still_ don't have
the phobia. However, a possibly very bad result on a more difficult
technique (it worked, but I didn't make sure that was a good thing) has
caused me to drop all but the simplest techniques, and I do them very
rarely.

Unfortunately, NLP has left its rather auspicious beginings to become a
bizarre quagmire of techniques and outrageous claims. Some of the results I
undeniably saw in its early days make me think that _some_ of these
outrageous claims are correct, but I don't dare test the more difficult
ones, and don't always know how.

I will try to give you a general idea of how NLP got started, and how it
ended up in its present mess.

NLP started with two men, John Grinder and Richard Bandler, two college
students. They noted that some therapists (Fritz Perls, creator of Gestalt
Therapy, Virgina Satir, a major innovator in family therapy, and Milton
Ericson, a hypnotherapist who was frightenly effective) could make major
changes in people seemingly by "magic", but their students generally
couldn't.

So, they studies these very different therapists to find common factors. The
techniques that their "magicians" taught were not similar in any way, so
they ignored what was taught and watched for similarities in the
"magician's" behavior. They found certain speech patterns that these people
used that their students (and other therapists) generally didn't. What they
told people to do to change where very different, but how they extracted the
source of your problems and patterns in how they presented solutions were
surprisingly similar.

So, Bandler and Grinder published their results as new ways to communicate
with patients to get the maximum information. Some of the patterns, such as
the semantics of breaking down a clients speech to discover the problem,
were readily demonstrable, but some of the other techniques were harder to
show as effective, and thus more questionable. Their first two books, "The
Structure of Magic Vol. 1 & 2", were widely hailed as breakthroughs in
communications, and especially theraputic communications. However, the same
people who told them their work was "breakthrough" were the same people who
went on using _old_ communications patterns. Their admiration for the work
did not extend to actually using it.

Bandler and Grinder went on to use what they had found to extract more
techniques from these therapists, expecially Milton Ericson. They developed
a "10-minute Phobia Cure" which works quite well. They also developed
techniques that would break a patient out of catatonia in less than an hour,
another undeniably effective technique. This, of course, made traditional
therapy look bad. A psychologist using older methods might spend a year or
more treating a phobia, and even disassociation techniques took months, but
they took minutes.

At the same time as they started presenting these techniques, they also
started criticizing the practitioners in the theraputic world, which they
called "changework" as a catch-all term for psychology, psychiatry,
psychoanalysis, and teaching. Psychology and its attendent branches have an
odd dichotomy, where researchers study things that are often of no use
whatsover to the people in the field, and the people in the field respond by
ignoring the research, and they made this clear in their workshops and
published works. They also refused to act like their field thought they
should.

When they did classes in California, they were actually told that their
classes were inappropriate because they actually told students to try the
techniques they discussed to make changes in their own lives. They would
actually talk to people's multiple personalities, and then point out in
their published works that the "multiple personalities" claimed to have been
integrated up until the patient went to a therapist. They did the same with
a popular therapy called "Transactional Analysis", which claimed people had
multiple parts to their personality. They enjoy saying things like, "In the
psych wards around here, we have a lot of weirdos. And then there are the
patients." They accused their collegues of _causing_ many of the problems
they "found". Whenever they saw what they considered a flaw in "changework",
they presented it publically and often insultingly. Very amusingly, too.

They would even address rooms of psychologists, get tired of running into
brick walls, announce that they were about to demonstrate a method of
insulting people without them noticing, one they had just described, that
they saw in their patients. They would then use the method _on the
audience_, and watch as a tiny percentage got it and busted up laughing,
while the rest of the room just took notes. Later, refering to the insulting
story, they would take people who they had noticed as particularly
non-responsive, and, when saying goodbye, would finish with _another_
technique for covert insults they had described, saying, "Did you hear that
story about Milton Ericson? I wouldn't want you to think _it's about you!_."

As time went on, their claims became more outrageous. They presented a
method of breaking or creating habits in minutes, and a new method of
negotiating that they would use between "parts" of a person's consciousness,
family members, or businessmen. Some of the techniques were demonstrably
working, but others were harder to quantify. For example, they developed
techniques for changing limiting beliefs, but how do you clearly demonstrate
that a person's limiting beliefs had changed?

The entire field of "changework" reacted in a couple of ways. On the one
hand, people using "Disassociation Therapy" for curing phobias developed
methods of showing that it could _begin_ to work in only an hour or so, even
if it took months, and started claiming _they_ could cure phobias that fast.
"Brief Therapy" became popular, as did claiming your work was based upon the
work of Milton Ericson.

On the other hand, therapists would find any opportunity to criticize their
work. Their phobia cure "didn't address the root cause of the phobia". Their
less demonstrable techniques were claimed to just plain "not work". When
these same therapists tried them to prove they didn't work, well, they
didn't, giving them more ammo.

Then NLP spit up. There are now many different versions, most of which make
extreme claims. One of the originators, John Grinder, claims that what is
probably the currently most popular NLP association was created because the
originators weren't very good, and wanted to be able to certify themselves.
He himself makes a number of rather extreme claims himself. However, his
track record on things I have actually seen done and done myself is good
enough that I must at least consider the possibility that he can do them,
too.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18495
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Feb 2001 19:55:52 -0800
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Okay....

Filksinger

"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.14ebcf234d0a2e4498974e@news.sff.net...
> In article <3a81f90f.0@news.sff.net>, Filksinger writes...
> >
> > "Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.14ea930b48c2efc698974d@news.sff.net...
> > <snip>
> > >
> > > It really bothers me that psychologists are doing this kind of testing
on
> > > people.  I can remember exactly where I was the first time I heard
about
> > > this sort of thing.
> >
> > Why? Does it make you uncomfortable to think that you might be
> > misremembering, or do you think they are wrong, or do you think it is a
> > waste of effort, or something else?
>
> OK, OK, it's like this.  We are talking about events that make some
> serious impression on us and how we remember exactly where we were when
> they happened.  Frank comes along and tells us that psychologists have
> shown we really don't remember where we were very well at all.  Then I
> say that some event really bothered me - that is, makes a serious
> impression on me - and I remember exactly where I was, AND THE EVENT IS
> HEARING ABOUT PSYCHOLOGISTS TESTING WHETHER WE REMEMBER WHERE WE WERE
> WHEN THE EVENTS OCCUR!!
>
> HA! HO! HO!  I am just killing myself here!!
>
> --
> Gordon "I say, I say, it's a joke, son" Sollars
> gsollars@pobox.com



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18496
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 08:39:36 GMT
Subject: Re: What is NLP?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

They wouldn't by any chance have a simple self-applied stop smoking
cure would they?

Fader




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18497
From: David Wright" <maikosht@alltel.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 11:58:22 -0500
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3a7f3a98.186022646@news.sff.net...
> On Sun, 4 Feb 2001 22:23:56 -0500, Gordon G. Sollars
> <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote:
>
> >Oh, go ahead, youngster, just say that you're bored by all the old folks
> >jabbering around here!  ;-)
> >
> LOL!  The information-to-jabber ratio here is pretty good. I'll worry
> more when we start getting requests for help on how to set the fonts
> to larger sizes. ;)
>
> JT

Use all lower case and small fonts. That'll save disk space .

David

And if you believe that, I've got a good deal on a bridge or two for you.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18498
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Thu, 08 Feb 2001 20:51:00 GMT
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Wed, 7 Feb 2001 21:31:52 -0500, Gordon G. Sollars
<gsollars@pobox.com> wrote:


>HA! HO! HO!  I am just killing myself here!!
>
>-- 
>Gordon "I say, I say, it's a joke, son" Sollars
>gsollars@pobox.com

If it makes you feel better, I got it (a little smiley would have gone
a long way, though), and I get the Foghorn Leghorn reference, too. ;)

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18499
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Fri, 09 Feb 2001 05:04:30 GMT
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Interestingly; there was a Dilbert that addressed this. I read, in one
of Scott Adams' books, that some readers actually tried this and found
that long documents with many pages sometimes did benefit from having
the font sized reduced. (Apparently the smaller fonts reduced the
number of pages; and in doing so some formatting information was not
needed)

>Use all lower case and small fonts. That'll save disk space .

Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com
www.bluepoet.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18500
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:45:05 -0500
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a830629.163987781@news.sff.net>, JT writes...
....
> If it makes you feel better, I got it (a little smiley would have gone
> a long way, though),

I am usually very liberal with my use of smileys, as I have had 
considerable experience with the lack of "intent cues" provided by ASCII 
text.  However, I thought that one was really enhanced by a "deadpan" 
delivery.

> and I get the Foghorn Leghorn reference, too. ;)

What are you talking about?


;-) 

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18501
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 09:30:51 -0800
Subject: Re: RIP Challenger
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Bob Lawson" <bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com> wrote in message
news:3a8379f4.866961@news.sff.net...
> Interestingly; there was a Dilbert that addressed this. I read, in one
> of Scott Adams' books, that some readers actually tried this and found
> that long documents with many pages sometimes did benefit from having
> the font sized reduced. (Apparently the smaller fonts reduced the
> number of pages; and in doing so some formatting information was not
> needed)

Yep. It actually works, if you are talking about word processor documents.
It doesn't effect email, continuous pages (like in HTML), or text documents.
Actually, in HTML it could save you the few bytes needed to tell the webpage
what size font to use.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18502
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 10:07:14 -0800
Subject: Re: What is NLP?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Fader" <fader555@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3a825ac6.1374149@news.sff.net...
> They wouldn't by any chance have a simple self-applied stop smoking
> cure would they?

Well, first look for secondary benefits. This may not be necessary, as the
technique below is supposed to deal with these, but it makes it simpler and
thus possibly more reliable. A "secondary benefit" is where a habit, bad or
good, is a trigger for other benefits. One example would be where children
unconsciously give themselves asthma attacks to get out of things they don't
want to do. As one interesting example, back when Bandler and Grinder used
hypnosis for a lot of their work, they had a guy who they cured of smoking,
but who asked for marriage counseling a few weeks later. Seems that he and
his wife never talked anymore. Turns out, he and his wife had a pattern. One
of them would sit at the kitchen table and light up. The other would join
the first and light up. Then they would talk. Now, she would light up, and
he would ignore her, and when he wanted to talk, she didn't notice. Turns
out, neither one of them quite knew what was wrong, just that they never
talked anymore.

So, if smoking does something _for_ you, or always proceeds something you
want, then figure it out first, and create a new habit that serves the same
purpose. For example, the man above only needed to create the habit of
joining his wife at the kitchen table. If you don't do this, you may find
you have destroyed the other, positive habit, right along with smoking, and
may start smoking again to get back the benefit.

Once you take care of that, you can try the "Swish" technique, where you
switch a compulsion for one thing to a compulsion for another. For instance,
some people picture chocolate in their head, and must eat one, so you could
do a swish to compel them to immediately think about something else. One
woman went from a picture of chocolate to the same picture bursting. She
wasn't able to make any picture of chocolate in her head anymore, but she
didn't care.

For smokers, the compulsion is usually swished from smoking to comfortably
not smoking, even in the company of smokers. The generic Swish is supposed
to work for about 80% of the population, if done right, and there are
instructions in the books for "troubleshooting". Try "Using Your Brain - For
a CHANGE". Read it thoroughly first.

When I was a security guard, I had difficulty not taking candy off of one
desk (that's what it's there for, right?) on every pass, and thus could
mostly empty the tray in one night. I did a standard Swish on myself, and
felt a compulsion to not approach the desk, just as strong as the original
one to take a candy. It was a very weird feeling, let me tell you, being
repelled by candy bowl.

There are other techiques, but most of them are difficult to do on oneself.
The technique that made me stop practicing NLP without better training was
one. I took a person suffering from severe aggitation and even paranoia, and
in less than five minutes they went from bouncing off the walls to taking a
nap. The person in question never even knew that it worked; she just
suddenly wasn't agittated anymore. It got weird looks from my wife, but
after that she believed in NLP, whereas before she didn't really, though she
wouldn't tell me that.

Unfortunately, I am not certain the paranoia might not have been better for
this person, in the long run.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18503
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 08:43:33 GMT
Subject: Re: What is NLP?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

After many failed attempts, I'm not doing too bad this time around,
but every little bit helps, I'll have to look into it.

Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18504
From: SpaceCadet <cdozo@hotmail.com_delete_this>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 19:55:29 -0600
Subject: Re: A Major Outing
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



SpaceCadet wrote:
> 
> That happens in "To Have and Have Not..." 

I forgot to mention the other cool thing about "To Have and Have
Not," the piano player in the film is none other than Hoagy
Carmichael of Stardust fame.


 Carol (who does like music and songwriter trivia)

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18505
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 23:19:31 GMT
Subject: Space Station Alpha
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

So humanity's put up its largest working station yet...pretty cool,
eh?  I just wish we didn't have to depend on Shuttles to get the parts
up there.  I want it done already! <VBG>

I know this isn't a great post, but I couldn't let TWO days go by
without seeing something posted here.... ;)

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18506
From: crazymomkl@pop.mpls.uswest.net
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:08:14 -0600
Subject: Heinlein Society Application
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Dear JT,

     Please allow me to introduce myself.  My name is Tawn Johnson and
in addition to being a long time Robert A. Heinlein fan I am also the
Membership Director of The Heinlein Society.
     I have spent the last couple of days reading through some of the
numerous posts in this newsgroup and I must admit this is a really great
newsgroup.  In addition, I recognize a number of names and people who I
have the pleasure of already knowing!
     The reason I found my way here is because David Silver wrote me to
suggest I read the thread pertaining to The Heinlein Society which you
initiated.  There are a number of questions and comments many
individuals have posted and I am going to answer them all.  The best way
I can start is to post a copy of The Heinlein Society application since
it addresses many questions directly.  In addition, someone may actually
decide to join!  So, here is our current application.  I will address
other previously posted questions in a separate post.
     Thank you for keeping interest in the works of Robert A. Heinlein
alive!

Sincerely,
Tawn R. Johnson
Membership Director (and Heinlein fan)
The Heinlein Society

 THE HEINLEIN SOCIETY
 Application for Membership
 P.O. Box 1254
 Venice, CA 90294
 www.heinleinsociety.com

  Founding
 Board Of Directors

PRESIDENT:
Bill Patterson
    (THE HEINLEIN JOURNAL)
SECRETARY-TREASURER:
David Silver
   (Heinlein Readers Group)

Virginia Heinlein
Tawn Johnson
Charles Brown
   (LOCUS)
Philip Owenby












 Dear prospective member:

The Heinlein Society is a non-profit organization dedicated to promoting
the intellectual and literary concerns, and social legacy, of Robert A.
Heinlein.  In addition to his main reputation as a science fiction
writer and futurist, Heinlein during his lifetime tried to give worthy
social causes a boost.  The best way we can show our appreciation for
his legacy is to PAY IT FORWARD.

Some examples of projects already proposed for the Society (now being
organized as a tax-exempt charity) are: continuing the series of blood
drives he started; developing an educational curriculum using Heinlein's
writing; sponsoring educational programs such as essay contests; keeping
his books in libraries; sponsoring scholarly and literary work on
Heinlein; and doing our best to promote space exploration.  A complete
list of the working sections already started is in the information part
below.  We will want to add more worthy projects as time goes by.

Membership in the various working sections is not mandatory but it is
certainly encouraged.  And we want your ideas for working projects in
the future!

An annual Supporting Membership level is provided for students and those
on fixed incomes who wish to support the work of The Heinlein Society.

If you are interested in joining us in continuing the good work Robert
Heinlein started, please fill out the application form below and mail it
to The Heinlein Society, P.O. Box 1254, Venice, CA 90254.  Or visit our
website at www.heinleinsociety.com, where you may apply for membership
by an online application form.

For further information, please contact the Society at Tawn3@AOL.com (or
the above postal address)
 Application Form:

Name:  ________________________________________________

Address:  ______________________________________________

   ______________________________________________

E-mail:    _____________________________

Phone:  (Home) ________________________   (Work)
________________________
 "I think the Heinlein Society is a fine idea.  Robert would be proud of
the way his Children have grown up."

Virginia Heinlein
  Atlantic Beach, FL
  October 2000

Annual Membership Dues Enclosed: $35 ___   [Supporting Membership:  $15
___]

I would be interested in joining and working on the following projects
(check as many as you are interested in):

_____ Membership  _____ Library support    _____
Literary-Scholarly-Academic
_____ Blood Drive  _____ Society Web Page
_____ Fund-raising  _____ Education (K-12th grades)

Other Projects I would like to see the Society become involved in:
______________________________________________________

Other Comments:
___________________________________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18507
From: crazymomkl@pop.mpls.uswest.net
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:12:57 -0600
Subject: Re: Heinlein Society Application
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Please ignore the crazymomkl addy.  It is someone else.  My address is Tawn3@aol.com.  I obviously have to
configure Netscape different since it is set up for another user on this computer.  My mistake, my apologies.

Tawn
Tawn3@aol.com

crazymomkl@pop.mpls.uswest.net wrote:

> Dear JT,
>
>      Please allow me to introduce myself.  My name is Tawn Johnson and
> in addition to being a long time Robert A. Heinlein fan I am also the
> Membership Director of The Heinlein Society.
>      I have spent the last couple of days reading through some of the
> numerous posts in this newsgroup and I must admit this is a really great
> newsgroup.  In addition, I recognize a number of names and people who I
> have the pleasure of already knowing!
>      The reason I found my way here is because David Silver wrote me to
> suggest I read the thread pertaining to The Heinlein Society which you
> initiated.  There are a number of questions and comments many
> individuals have posted and I am going to answer them all.  The best way
> I can start is to post a copy of The Heinlein Society application since
> it addresses many questions directly.  In addition, someone may actually
> decide to join!  So, here is our current application.  I will address
> other previously posted questions in a separate post.
>      Thank you for keeping interest in the works of Robert A. Heinlein
> alive!
>
> Sincerely,
> Tawn R. Johnson
> Membership Director (and Heinlein fan)
> The Heinlein Society
>
>  THE HEINLEIN SOCIETY
>  Application for Membership
>  P.O. Box 1254
>  Venice, CA 90294
>  www.heinleinsociety.com
>
>   Founding
>  Board Of Directors
>
> PRESIDENT:
> Bill Patterson
>     (THE HEINLEIN JOURNAL)
> SECRETARY-TREASURER:
> David Silver
>    (Heinlein Readers Group)
>
> Virginia Heinlein
> Tawn Johnson
> Charles Brown
>    (LOCUS)
> Philip Owenby
>
>  Dear prospective member:
>
> The Heinlein Society is a non-profit organization dedicated to promoting
> the intellectual and literary concerns, and social legacy, of Robert A.
> Heinlein.  In addition to his main reputation as a science fiction
> writer and futurist, Heinlein during his lifetime tried to give worthy
> social causes a boost.  The best way we can show our appreciation for
> his legacy is to PAY IT FORWARD.
>
> Some examples of projects already proposed for the Society (now being
> organized as a tax-exempt charity) are: continuing the series of blood
> drives he started; developing an educational curriculum using Heinlein's
> writing; sponsoring educational programs such as essay contests; keeping
> his books in libraries; sponsoring scholarly and literary work on
> Heinlein; and doing our best to promote space exploration.  A complete
> list of the working sections already started is in the information part
> below.  We will want to add more worthy projects as time goes by.
>
> Membership in the various working sections is not mandatory but it is
> certainly encouraged.  And we want your ideas for working projects in
> the future!
>
> An annual Supporting Membership level is provided for students and those
> on fixed incomes who wish to support the work of The Heinlein Society.
>
> If you are interested in joining us in continuing the good work Robert
> Heinlein started, please fill out the application form below and mail it
> to The Heinlein Society, P.O. Box 1254, Venice, CA 90254.  Or visit our
> website at www.heinleinsociety.com, where you may apply for membership
> by an online application form.
>
> For further information, please contact the Society at Tawn3@AOL.com (or
> the above postal address)
>  Application Form:
>
> Name:  ________________________________________________
>
> Address:  ______________________________________________
>
>    ______________________________________________
>
> E-mail:    _____________________________
>
> Phone:  (Home) ________________________   (Work)
> ________________________
>  "I think the Heinlein Society is a fine idea.  Robert would be proud of
> the way his Children have grown up."
>
> Virginia Heinlein
>   Atlantic Beach, FL
>   October 2000
>
> Annual Membership Dues Enclosed: $35 ___   [Supporting Membership:  $15
> ___]
>
> I would be interested in joining and working on the following projects
> (check as many as you are interested in):
>
> _____ Membership  _____ Library support    _____
> Literary-Scholarly-Academic
> _____ Blood Drive  _____ Society Web Page
> _____ Fund-raising  _____ Education (K-12th grades)
>
> Other Projects I would like to see the Society become involved in:
> ______________________________________________________
>
> Other Comments:
> ___________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18508
From: Tawn3@NOTOSPAM.aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 20:21:53 -0600
Subject: Test of address
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This is a test of my E-mail addy and spam blocker.  Please disregard.
Tawn3


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18509
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:53:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Space Station Alpha
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3a89c07d.604844500@news.sff.net...
> So humanity's put up its largest working station yet...pretty cool,

Except that Mir is still bigger, in terms of weight, volume, span, etc. So
it isn't the largest, just yet.

> eh?  I just wish we didn't have to depend on Shuttles to get the parts
> up there.  I want it done already! <VBG>

Again, we don't. The first part of Alpha (its official name, btw) was
launched by the Russians. I forget what other parts will be launched on
Russkie rockets, have to check the manifest. Plus they are using Soyuz for
launching people.


> I know this isn't a great post, but I couldn't let TWO days go by
> without seeing something posted here.... ;)

It's evaluation time at work, I've been busy!

Other cool things:
We had an industrial accident in space, an ammonia line pumped coolant all
over a spacewalker as the were hooking up the Destiny module. No serious
problem, but they were worried about ammonia crystals sticking to the space
suit and getting into the station. You really don't want to breathe that
stuff!

The world's (or off-world's) finest quality vacuum proof window has been
opened up on the Destiny module. 4 high quality panes of glass, with a
protective shutter system that can be closed when the window isn't being
used. And it will be used for more than just Earth-gazing. Cameras and other
instruments will be pointed out the picture window, for serious science. See
the highlights on "This Old Space Station" with Bob Vila and Norm.


Even more interesting was the landing of NEAR-Shoemaker on the asteroid
Eros. Durn thing was never meant to LAND anywhere! Telemetry is still being
received, the solar cells are getting power, and it looks like other
instruments on the spacecraft are functioning. There is even an outside
chance they may try to launch NEAR again. A bit of fuel remains onboard,
they could try to launch it again, and get some more low level pictures and
data on the way up.


--
WJaKe

http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18510
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 16:14:55 -0800
Subject: Re: Heinlein Society Application
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


<crazymomkl@pop.mpls.uswest.net> wrote in message
news:3A89E88E.D78A769A@pop.mpls.uswest.net...
> Dear JT,
>
>      Please allow me to introduce myself.  My name is Tawn Johnson and
> in addition to being a long time Robert A. Heinlein fan I am also the
> Membership Director of The Heinlein Society.

Greetings and felicitations, Tawn! You are most welcome to our humble corner
of the Internet.

>      I have spent the last couple of days reading through some of the
> numerous posts in this newsgroup and I must admit this is a really great
> newsgroup.  In addition, I recognize a number of names and people who I
> have the pleasure of already knowing!

We like to think so. Of course, it is an odd and contentious lot we have
here, and our discussions are broad and never on topic, but that is actually
part of its charm to those of us who live here.

>      The reason I found my way here is because David Silver wrote me to
> suggest I read the thread pertaining to The Heinlein Society which you
> initiated.  There are a number of questions and comments many
> individuals have posted and I am going to answer them all.  The best way
> I can start is to post a copy of The Heinlein Society application since
> it addresses many questions directly.  In addition, someone may actually
> decide to join!  So, here is our current application.  I will address
> other previously posted questions in a separate post.
>      Thank you for keeping interest in the works of Robert A. Heinlein
> alive!
>
> Sincerely,
> Tawn R. Johnson
> Membership Director (and Heinlein fan)
> The Heinlein Society

Thank you for the information. While we seldom actually talk about Heinlein
directly around here (there is only so much you can say on any subject,
after all), he is possibly the only topic we all share interest in.

Filksinger
"Keeping in mind that the notes we sing are never, ever wrong!"



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18511
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 17:00:34 -0800
Subject: New Technology for Levitating Monorails
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

When a cat is dropped, it always lands on its feet, and when toast
is dropped, it always lands buttered side down. Therefore, if a slice of
toast is strapped to a cat's back, buttered side up, and the animal is then
dropped, the two opposing forces will cause it to hover, spinning
inches above the ground. If enough toast-laden felines were used, they
could form the basis of a high-speed monorail system. ....

There is more to consider though, as in the buttered toast case, it's
the butter that causes it to land buttered side down - it doesn't have to
be toast, the theory works equally well with Jacob's crackers. So to
save money you just miss out the toast - and butter the cats. Also, should
there be an imbalance between the effects of cat and butter, there are other
substances that have a stronger affinity for carpet.

Probability of carpet impact is determined by the following simple formula:


p = s * t(t)/t(c)


Where: p is the probability of carpet impact s is the "stain" value of the
toast-covering substance - an indicator  of the effectiveness of the toast
topping in permanently staining the carpet.
Chicken Tikka Masala, for example, has a very high s value, while the s
value of water is zero.

t(c) and t(t) indicate the tone of the carpet and topping - the value of p
being strongly related to the relationship between the colour of the carpet
and topping, as even chicken tikka masala won't cause a permanent and
obvious stain if the carpet is the same colour.

So it is obvious that the probability of carpet impact is maximised if you
use chicken tikka masala and a white carpet - in fact this combination gives
a p value of one, which is the same as the probability of a cat landing on
its feet. Therefore a cat with chicken tikka masala on its back will be
certain to hover in mid air, while there could be problems with buttered
toast as the toast may fall off the cat, causing a terrible monorail crash
resulting in nauseating images of accident victims in hospital, and
politicians saying it wouldn't have happened if their party was in power as
there would have been more investment in cat-toast glue research.

Therefore it is in the interests not only of public safety but also public
sanity if the buttered toast on cats idea is scrapped, to be replaced
by a monorail powered by cats smeared with chicken tikka masala
floating above a rail made from white shag pile carpet.





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18512
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 02:34:17 GMT
Subject: Re: New Technology for Levitating Monorails
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

wonderful
Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com
www.bluepoet.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18513
From: John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:40:14 -0500
Subject: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Yesterday I received a strange email.  Whoever wrote it was
ignorant of the way the Internet works, rude, threatening, and
poor at spelling.  Normally I'd just ignore such an email, or
send back a scathing reply, depending on my mood.

This email, however, was signed "Virginia Heinlein".

Now, everything I've heard about both the Robert & Virginia
Heinlein indicated that they were unfailingly polite.  I
would expect that to include investigating a matter sufficiently
before spouting off false accusations and uttering threats.

Which makes me think the email I received is probably a fake.

However, I seem to recall that some of the people who read the
HF here have actually had email contact with Virginia Heinlein.
Could one such a person confirm or deny whether the address
this message was sent from is Mrs. Heinlein's email address?
If it is not, I don't need to know her actual address.  I just
want to know whether this is a fake.

So, to those in the know, is
	<Astyanax12@aol.com>
really Mrs. Heinlein's address, or do I have a faker?

Thanks for your help.

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
http://www.vrolyk.org/jp/
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18514
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:39:53 -0800
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

John Paul Vrolyk wrote:

> Yesterday I received a strange email.  Whoever wrote it was
> ignorant of the way the Internet works, rude, threatening, and
> poor at spelling.  Normally I'd just ignore such an email, or
> send back a scathing reply, depending on my mood.
>
> This email, however, was signed "Virginia Heinlein".
>
> Now, everything I've heard about both the Robert & Virginia
> Heinlein indicated that they were unfailingly polite.  I
> would expect that to include investigating a matter sufficiently
> before spouting off false accusations and uttering threats.
>
> Which makes me think the email I received is probably a fake.
>
> However, I seem to recall that some of the people who read the
> HF here have actually had email contact with Virginia Heinlein.
> Could one such a person confirm or deny whether the address
> this message was sent from is Mrs. Heinlein's email address?
> If it is not, I don't need to know her actual address.  I just
> want to know whether this is a fake.
>
> So, to those in the know, is
>         <Astyanax12@aol.com>
> really Mrs. Heinlein's address, or do I have a faker?
>
> Thanks for your help.
>
> --
> John Paul Vrolyk
> http://www.vrolyk.org/jp/
> jp@vrolyk.org

Dear Mr. Vrolyk,

Mrs. Heinlein can certainly speak for herself, and I certainly do not
purport to speak for her in any way. I find Mrs. Heinlein unfailingly
polite in all my contacts with her, but also someone not safe to triffle
with. Could the real subject of her e mail to you have involved the
publication of virtually the entirety of a copyrighted work, _The
Notebooks of Lazarus Long_ on a website by you? Just guessing, mind you;
but I will observe that Mrs. Heinlein recently made an appeal to folk to
stop doing just that on the Internet.

You haven't received a license from her or any of her agents to publish
it, have you? Seems to me that if I were a lawyer advising someone
concerned with copyright infringement, the first thing I'd tell that
person that a demand to cease infringement be made to all infringers. Is
that what you received?

Demands, as such, are rarely read as being "unfailingly polite" or
bereft of "threats" of legal action--a threat which I point out to you
is entirely legal, appropriate and necessary to ensure a copyright
remains effective for the purposes granted. I wouldn't wish to predict
the future, but I am constrained to observe, given the amount of witting
and unwitting copyright infringement that goes on in the Internet, that
you won't be the last to receive such a letter. Mrs. Heinlein, as is her
right and obligation to the trust she administers, known as "the
Estate," is constrained to spend much time protecting those copyrights.
Those copyrights pay for such things as the Heinlein Chair we've
recently heard of at Annapolis. Would you like to guess how many million
dollars it takes to perpetually endow such a chair?

If you really wish to have an answer as to your doubts concerning the
authentication of the party who sent you the e mail, or test the
seriousness of content it contained, I will reluctantly put you in touch
with the Estate's lawyer.

However, if I had the entirety, or very nearly the entirety of _The
Notebooks of Larazus Long_ up on a website; and I received a demand that
it be removed from the copyright holder, I'd treat that demand very
seriously, whether or not I was aware I violated the law when I put it
up.

And I'd write a nice apologetic letter to the lady informing her I'd
taken it down. But, of course, you do what you wish ... I don't
represent you or her and I'm not giving you legal advice. I'm retired.

Very sincerely yours,
David M. Silver


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18515
From: Tawn3 <Tawn3@NOTOSPAM.aol.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:13:21 -0600
Subject: The Heinlein Society costs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Hi everybody,

    Thank you for the welcome Filksinger!

     Well, it appears that most of the questions people, particularly JT,  had about The Heinlein Society had
to do with the types of costs we anticipate at THS.
     As both Bob Lawson and Robert Larson pointed out, they will be numerous as we strive to fulfill our
mission.  For instance, just to start up The Heinlein Society as a non-profit 501(c)(3) corporation is an
expensive endeavor.  We had to hire a lawyer and rent postal boxes to receive our mail.  We ended up having to
switch postal boxes after the first few months so there is a slight overlap with two boxes active.  This was
both necessary and unforeseeable.  We have to pay a lawyer to handle our incorporation and legal affairs.  We
had to register as a non-profit with the state of Texas.  Believe it or not, we have to pay the IRS
considerable fees to register as a non-profit.  These IRS fees alone equal $3,000, something which I suspect
the more libertarian minded members on this board can sympathize with.  We had to register our domain name and
set up a web site, as well as pay a host.  And we had to print some flyers to pass out at various Cons letting
the public know of our existence.  Just these fees alone came to $3,000 we have to pay the IRS, $125.00 we have
to pay to register with the state of Texas, $75.00 in postal box fees, $125.00 for domain name and web hosting
(plus some additional web page costs we haven't itemized yet), miscellaneous expenses to let the public know of
our existence, and printing costs from a blood drive we did as our first project shortly after forming.  And
this was just to form the basics of The Heinlein Society!  As you can see, it is indeed a case of TANSTAAFL.
    We expect to incur various costs as we progress.  As Bill Dauphin pointed out, even things as simple as
blood drives include costs for flyers, refreshments if set up at a Con,  possibly T-shirts and transportation
in some foreseeable cases.  Bill also accurately pointed out that there will indeed be the inevitable legal,
meeting, phone and other routine business costs involved with any non-profit.  The idea of T-shirts for other
purposes is an idea we have explored already.  We are considering purchasing an affordable db program so that
all board members and chair persons can access our soon to be developed PRIVATE AND PROTECTED, db.
    We most definitely want to set up both a grant program for worthy projects and a scholarship program for
deserving future leaders and scientists and engineers.  Especially if they are interested in space.  While we
can not yet even attempt to pay for such grants and scholarships, it most definitely is something we are
looking at.
    We want to develop educational programs and study guides incorporating the works of Robert Heinlein.  This
is something that would be made available to both public and home based schools.
    We intend to set up other academic programs and to encourage the scholarly academic research of RAH's body
of literature, since he was indeed a great American author of the 20th Century.
    While it is a very good idea, as JT pointed out,  to try and get others to donate books to libraries for
children to read, we may very well incur costs doing this as well.  We also will look at ways to get kids
interested in reading the books which already exist in many libraries.  This brings us right back to the costs
involved with a public service campaign.
    One thing which is possible down the road, in order to avoid any possible appearance of conflict with the
purchase of new Heinlein works, we may decide to purchase used books for distribution to children which will
prevent anyone from thinking the estate is profiting from such campaigns.  I assure, the estate is is in no way
profiting from this non-profit society and will take every endeavor to even avoid the appearance of such a
conflict.  Again, that means we pay for things ourselves in many cases.
     Has any one ever seen the film version of the short story "The Lottery"?  Perhaps in high school or Jr.
High?  It is an example of how a story can be made for educational purposes and for exposure to the arts and
sciences.  I also remember seeing Bartleby in high school, and as far as I can tell, it was "non-profit, for
educational purposes".  These films exposed me to interesting ideas and concepts.  Well, this can be done with
many of Heinlein's works as well!  It is possible to make a "true to story" version of a Heinlein story and
thus expose children to the wonders and adventure of space exploration, as well as to perhaps stimulate them to
think critically of the world around them and to start to look at nature with a sense of curiosity.  I am sure
anyone on this board can think of many applications for such a project and idea.  To make such a film would
involve numerous production costs as I am sure you are aware.

     Yes, indeed, there will be many costs as we grow and pursue our vision.

     I will answer some of JT's other concerns in a different post.

     More than anything, we also need volunteers and members.  Wont you please take a moment of your time and
consider joining if the question of cost is your primary reason for not yet joining?  I guarantee you there
will be many costs involved and that our expenses will be managed professionally.  David Silver, who most of
you are familiar with, will vouch for the veracity of all the above.

    I sincerely hope some of you decide to join The Heinlein Society and it is indeed a pleasure to have found
this newsgroup.

Sincerely,
Tawn
Tawn3@aol.com
Membership Director
The Heinlein Society






crazymomkl@pop.mpls.uswest.net wrote:

> Dear JT,
>
>      Please allow me to introduce myself.  My name is Tawn Johnson and
> in addition to being a long time Robert A. Heinlein fan I am also the
> Membership Director of The Heinlein Society.
>      I have spent the last couple of days reading through some of the
> numerous posts in this newsgroup and I must admit this is a really great
> newsgroup.  In addition, I recognize a number of names and people who I
> have the pleasure of already knowing!
>      The reason I found my way here is because David Silver wrote me to
> suggest I read the thread pertaining to The Heinlein Society which you
> initiated.  There are a number of questions and comments many
> individuals have posted and I am going to answer them all.  The best way
> I can start is to post a copy of The Heinlein Society application since
> it addresses many questions directly.  In addition, someone may actually
> decide to join!  So, here is our current application.  I will address
> other previously posted questions in a separate post.
>      Thank you for keeping interest in the works of Robert A. Heinlein
> alive!
>
> Sincerely,
> Tawn R. Johnson
> Membership Director (and Heinlein fan)
> The Heinlein Society
>
>  THE HEINLEIN SOCIETY
>  Application for Membership
>  P.O. Box 1254
>  Venice, CA 90294
>  www.heinleinsociety.com
>
>   Founding
>  Board Of Directors
>
> PRESIDENT:
> Bill Patterson
>     (THE HEINLEIN JOURNAL)
> SECRETARY-TREASURER:
> David Silver
>    (Heinlein Readers Group)
>
> Virginia Heinlein
> Tawn Johnson
> Charles Brown
>    (LOCUS)
> Philip Owenby
>
>  Dear prospective member:
>
> The Heinlein Society is a non-profit organization dedicated to promoting
> the intellectual and literary concerns, and social legacy, of Robert A.
> Heinlein.  In addition to his main reputation as a science fiction
> writer and futurist, Heinlein during his lifetime tried to give worthy
> social causes a boost.  The best way we can show our appreciation for
> his legacy is to PAY IT FORWARD.
>
> Some examples of projects already proposed for the Society (now being
> organized as a tax-exempt charity) are: continuing the series of blood
> drives he started; developing an educational curriculum using Heinlein's
> writing; sponsoring educational programs such as essay contests; keeping
> his books in libraries; sponsoring scholarly and literary work on
> Heinlein; and doing our best to promote space exploration.  A complete
> list of the working sections already started is in the information part
> below.  We will want to add more worthy projects as time goes by.
>
> Membership in the various working sections is not mandatory but it is
> certainly encouraged.  And we want your ideas for working projects in
> the future!
>
> An annual Supporting Membership level is provided for students and those
> on fixed incomes who wish to support the work of The Heinlein Society.
>
> If you are interested in joining us in continuing the good work Robert
> Heinlein started, please fill out the application form below and mail it
> to The Heinlein Society, P.O. Box 1254, Venice, CA 90254.  Or visit our
> website at www.heinleinsociety.com, where you may apply for membership
> by an online application form.
>
> For further information, please contact the Society at Tawn3@AOL.com (or
> the above postal address)
>  Application Form:
>
> Name:  ________________________________________________
>
> Address:  ______________________________________________
>
>    ______________________________________________
>
> E-mail:    _____________________________
>
> Phone:  (Home) ________________________   (Work)
> ________________________
>  "I think the Heinlein Society is a fine idea.  Robert would be proud of
> the way his Children have grown up."
>
> Virginia Heinlein
>   Atlantic Beach, FL
>   October 2000
>
> Annual Membership Dues Enclosed: $35 ___   [Supporting Membership:  $15
> ___]
>
> I would be interested in joining and working on the following projects
> (check as many as you are interested in):
>
> _____ Membership  _____ Library support    _____
> Literary-Scholarly-Academic
> _____ Blood Drive  _____ Society Web Page
> _____ Fund-raising  _____ Education (K-12th grades)
>
> Other Projects I would like to see the Society become involved in:
> ______________________________________________________
>
> Other Comments:
> ___________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18516
From: Tawn3 <Tawn3@NOTOSPAM.aol.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:17:41 -0600
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

:-)  I love it when someone speaks concisely and politely.

"David M. Silver" wrote:

> John Paul Vrolyk wrote:
>
> > Yesterday I received a strange email.  Whoever wrote it was
> > ignorant of the way the Internet works, rude, threatening, and
> > poor at spelling.  Normally I'd just ignore such an email, or
> > send back a scathing reply, depending on my mood.
> >
> > This email, however, was signed "Virginia Heinlein".
> >
> > Now, everything I've heard about both the Robert & Virginia
> > Heinlein indicated that they were unfailingly polite.  I
> > would expect that to include investigating a matter sufficiently
> > before spouting off false accusations and uttering threats.
> >
> > Which makes me think the email I received is probably a fake.
> >
> > However, I seem to recall that some of the people who read the
> > HF here have actually had email contact with Virginia Heinlein.
> > Could one such a person confirm or deny whether the address
> > this message was sent from is Mrs. Heinlein's email address?
> > If it is not, I don't need to know her actual address.  I just
> > want to know whether this is a fake.
> >
> > So, to those in the know, is
> >         <Astyanax12@aol.com>
> > really Mrs. Heinlein's address, or do I have a faker?
> >
> > Thanks for your help.
> >
> > --
> > John Paul Vrolyk
> > http://www.vrolyk.org/jp/
> > jp@vrolyk.org
>
> Dear Mr. Vrolyk,
>
> Mrs. Heinlein can certainly speak for herself, and I certainly do not
> purport to speak for her in any way. I find Mrs. Heinlein unfailingly
> polite in all my contacts with her, but also someone not safe to triffle
> with. Could the real subject of her e mail to you have involved the
> publication of virtually the entirety of a copyrighted work, _The
> Notebooks of Lazarus Long_ on a website by you? Just guessing, mind you;
> but I will observe that Mrs. Heinlein recently made an appeal to folk to
> stop doing just that on the Internet.
>
> You haven't received a license from her or any of her agents to publish
> it, have you? Seems to me that if I were a lawyer advising someone
> concerned with copyright infringement, the first thing I'd tell that
> person that a demand to cease infringement be made to all infringers. Is
> that what you received?
>
> Demands, as such, are rarely read as being "unfailingly polite" or
> bereft of "threats" of legal action--a threat which I point out to you
> is entirely legal, appropriate and necessary to ensure a copyright
> remains effective for the purposes granted. I wouldn't wish to predict
> the future, but I am constrained to observe, given the amount of witting
> and unwitting copyright infringement that goes on in the Internet, that
> you won't be the last to receive such a letter. Mrs. Heinlein, as is her
> right and obligation to the trust she administers, known as "the
> Estate," is constrained to spend much time protecting those copyrights.
> Those copyrights pay for such things as the Heinlein Chair we've
> recently heard of at Annapolis. Would you like to guess how many million
> dollars it takes to perpetually endow such a chair?
>
> If you really wish to have an answer as to your doubts concerning the
> authentication of the party who sent you the e mail, or test the
> seriousness of content it contained, I will reluctantly put you in touch
> with the Estate's lawyer.
>
> However, if I had the entirety, or very nearly the entirety of _The
> Notebooks of Larazus Long_ up on a website; and I received a demand that
> it be removed from the copyright holder, I'd treat that demand very
> seriously, whether or not I was aware I violated the law when I put it
> up.
>
> And I'd write a nice apologetic letter to the lady informing her I'd
> taken it down. But, of course, you do what you wish ... I don't
> represent you or her and I'm not giving you legal advice. I'm retired.
>
> Very sincerely yours,
> David M. Silver


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18517
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:19:07 -0800
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

John Paul Vrolyk wrote:

[snip]

> --
> John Paul Vrolyk
> http://www.vrolyk.org/jp/
> jp@vrolyk.org

Dear John,

As I said, I was just guessing, so I went to see. You apparently have
linked to a webpage containing as I suspected the entirety of _The
Notebooks of Lazarus Long_. That page seems to be maintained by a fellow
who identifies himself as Dave Winzler (dave@microsees.com) on a webpage
[http://homepages.together.net/~dave/] that says it is part of something
called the "Together Network" in Burlington, VT, but which link refers
to Earthlink.

If I'd received the e mail you evidently did, I'd remove the link, and
notify the writer of the e mail I'd done so and of the identity of
person maintaining the page contained Notebooks, and the evident domain.

But I don't give legal advice anymore ...

David





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18518
From: John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:29:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"David M. Silver" wrote:
> Could the real subject of her e mail to you have involved the
> publication of virtually the entirety of a copyrighted work, _The
> Notebooks of Lazarus Long_ on a website by you?

The subject of the email purported to be from Mrs. Heinlein
was an order to take down just such a work, on threat of
5 years in prison.  However, I do not have such a work on my
website, and never have.

I do on my website mention the titles of several of Robert
Heinlein's works, including _Notebooks_, but none of their
contents are there.

> you won't be the last to receive such a letter. Mrs. Heinlein, as is her
> right and obligation to the trust she administers, known as "the
> Estate," is constrained to spend much time protecting those copyrights.

If one is going to be spending much time on such things, then
perhaps one should spend a few more seconds on each suspect,
to verify that they actually are doing something wrong, and
to spell their name correctly!

> Those copyrights pay for such things as the Heinlein Chair we've
> recently heard of at Annapolis. Would you like to guess how many million
> dollars it takes to perpetually endow such a chair?

No.

> If you really wish to have an answer as to your doubts concerning the
> authentication of the party who sent you the e mail, or test the
> seriousness of content it contained, I will reluctantly put you in touch
> with the Estate's lawyer.

I would appreciate that.

> However, if I had the entirety, or very nearly the entirety of _The
> Notebooks of Larazus Long_ up on a website; and I received a demand that
> it be removed from the copyright holder, I'd treat that demand very
> seriously, whether or not I was aware I violated the law when I put it
> up.

Sure, me too.  But I'm not in that situation.

And how would you feel, if, on the other hand, if you were
certain that you were not in such a situation, and were
falsely accused and threatened?  Even if one is innocent,
expensive lawyers (such as those that can be afforded by
people or estates that can afford to, say, perpetually
endow a chair) can really screw over one's life by tying
it up in legal knots.  I certainly can't afford to spend
tens of thousands of dollars defending myself from false
attacks and lawsuits; I have a wife and child to support.
And I would have little respect for anyone who would use
such tactics against me rather than looking at the truth
of the matter.

> ...I'm not giving you legal advice. I'm retired.

I appreciate your non-advice.  :-)

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
http://www.vrolyk.org/jp/
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18519
From: John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 20:46:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"David M. Silver" wrote:
> As I said, I was just guessing, so I went to see. You apparently have
> linked to a webpage containing as I suspected the entirety of _The
> Notebooks of Lazarus Long_. That page seems to be maintained by a fellow
> who identifies himself as Dave Winzler (dave@microsees.com) on a webpage

[Address deleted to avoid copyright violations]

> that says it is part of something
> called the "Together Network" in Burlington, VT, but which link refers
> to Earthlink.

> If I'd received the e mail you evidently did, I'd remove the link, and
> notify the writer of the e mail I'd done so and of the identity of
> person maintaining the page contained Notebooks, and the evident domain.

Are you going to cancel that message you just sent, which has
a link to that same site?

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
http://www.vrolyk.org/jp/
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18520
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 18:07:01 -0800
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

John Paul Vrolyk wrote:

>
> Are you going to cancel that message you just sent, which has
> a link to that same site?
>
> --
> John Paul Vrolyk
> http://www.vrolyk.org/jp/
> jp@vrolyk.org

Why in the world would I wish to do that, John? I'm identifying the homepage
of a person whom I have no good reason to believe is you that contains an
arguable copyright violation (not the page upon which the Notebooks appear to
which you have linked your website), which, if the owner heeds the same
demand you got, will not exist much longer.

I'm not identifying that page so that people will run over to read the
Notebooks, but to make your postition expressed in your posts a little more
understandable to persons who may wonder what is going on when you persist in
being offended by receipt of such things as misspelled e mail from a lady in
her eighties who is very nearly blind and who is constrained to send legal
demands to protect the estate of her husband. Legally, the fact that you've
linked to that page for the evident purpose of having people read the
Notebooks, might be argued as your republishing an infringement. You don't
want to be sued for that do you? You don't think Robert would have allowed
copyright infringements do you? He didn't, you know, the times they tried it
when he was alive.

Do what you wish.

David



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18521
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:36:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 17:40:14 -0500, John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
wrote:
>Yesterday I received a strange email.  Whoever wrote it was
>ignorant of the way the Internet works, rude, threatening, and
>poor at spelling.  Normally I'd just ignore such an email, or
>send back a scathing reply, depending on my mood.
>
>This email, however, was signed "Virginia Heinlein".
>
What I find interesting is the idea that Mrs. H. would spend her time
pursuing things like this.  I would think that the estate would have a
lawyer to issue letters like this one.

I also thought that straight hyperlinks have already "won out" in
court, but I have no legal research to back that up.  It's sad all
around.

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18522
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:36:16 GMT
Subject: Re: The Heinlein Society costs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:13:21 -0600, Tawn3 <Tawn3@NOTOSPAM.aol.com>
wrote:

>     Well, it appears that most of the questions people, particularly JT,  had about The Heinlein Society had
>to do with the types of costs we anticipate at THS.

Hi Tawn, 

Thanks for this post and for the other thread, also.  I'm not so much
concerned by the fact that dues are necessary or that there will be
levels of dues, only in that the different categories and
qualifications for those memberships are not *clearly* stated on the
website, which is the primary place to get information.  Your other
thread here goes into intent more than the website does, which is
appreciated, but it's still not 'crystal' who qualifies.  For example,
I may not be a student, but I am a salaried employee, so I have a
"fixed" income. ;)

Anyway, I'm tweaking you a bit because I'd rather it come from a
friendly corner than the "generic" public the Board (and volunteers)
will have to deal with in gaining widespread acceptance as a
nonprofit.

I very much appreciate that you came by and I hope you make this group
a regular stop. New voices are always welcome!

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18523
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:36:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Aw, jeez -- part II
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 00:16:58 -0600, "Clay Steiner"
<claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net> wrote:

>It's almost an "aw jeez" part III... I wrote this and thought I posted 
>it back in early August. But I just found it in my "drafts" folder
>under my ng ID tonight -- which ID I haven't opened but twice since I
>dunno when. Sheesh.
>
>YES, folks, vote for me -- I'm less disorganized than my opponents!
><weak grin>

Just wanted to congratulate Clay on getting 627 votes in his race...
3.98% without really campaigning.

(Totals just released recently, and I saw them today....)

JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18524
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:06:48 -0800
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT wrote:

[snip]

> What I find interesting is the idea that Mrs. H. would spend her time
> pursuing things like this.  I would think that the estate would have a
> lawyer to issue letters like this one.
>
> I also thought that straight hyperlinks have already "won out" in
> court, but I have no legal research to back that up.  It's sad all
> around.

Perhaps the legal bills of a system that charges $3,000 to file an
application for an charitable deduction has something to do with that.
Everytime a lawyer writes a letter, its costs large money.

It is sad all around.

David



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18525
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 19:24:45 -0800
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com> wrote in message
news:3A8C800A.7A83D9E5@loop.com...
> John Paul Vrolyk wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > --
> > John Paul Vrolyk
> > http://www.vrolyk.org/jp/
> > jp@vrolyk.org
>
> Dear John,
>
> As I said, I was just guessing, so I went to see. You apparently have
> linked to a webpage containing as I suspected the entirety of _The
> Notebooks of Lazarus Long_. That page seems to be maintained by a fellow
> who identifies himself as Dave Winzler (dave@microsees.com) on a webpage
> [http://homepages.together.net/~dave/] that says it is part of something
> called the "Together Network" in Burlington, VT, but which link refers
> to Earthlink.

Together Network was part of OneMain, which was purchased by Earthlink
sometime around early November, I believe.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18526
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 01:34:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Filksinger wrote:

> Together Network was part of OneMain, which was purchased by Earthlink
> sometime around early November, I believe.

Speaking as a Netcom... oops, I mean Mindspring... oops, I mean Earthlink
customer, I wonder if there's anything on (or even near) the Web that hasn't
been purchased by either Earthlink or AOL.

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18527
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 02:49:32 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



"David M. Silver" wrote:

> John Paul Vrolyk wrote:
>
> >
> > Are you going to cancel that message you just sent, which has
> > a link to that same site?
> >
> Why in the world would I wish to do that, John? ... I'm not identifying that
> page so that people will run over to read the
> Notebooks, ...

Interestingly, I *did* "run over" and at least glance at the page in question as
a direct result of your posting the address, something I'd never done before
(even though I'd known, in a general sort of way, that there were _Notebooks_
excerpts to be had somewhere on the Web).

On the one hand, it would seem that your link did the same thing JP's did:
Directed folks to (probably) infringing material that you hadn't personally
posted.

On the other hand, JP's link is clearly specifically intended to send readers
directly to the excerpts (i.e., it's not as if he just didn't know the material
in question was on the site he'd linked to).

On the gripping hand (BTW, I assert that this is Fair Use of the term "the
gripping hand," but just to be on the safe side... copyright 1993 by Larry Niven
and Jerry Pournelle <g>), the offending page *does* contain a rather prominent
copyright notice. I *know* that doesn't mean it's not an infringement, but it
may have led JP to believe the page was legit. (Heck, even the owner of the page
may have innocently believed it was legit.) I've heard wildly differing opinions
about Fair Use (particularly WRT the web) coming from folks I know are honest
and well-meaning.

I know that there's a defend-it-or-lose-it principle WRT copyright, and I fully
respect that Mrs. Heinlein and her advisors have both a right and a duty to
protect the estate's property... but where is it written that such efforts have
to be confrontational or accusatory? JP hasn't shared any of the details of the
note he received with us, but I can't imagine he'd have reacted as he has if the
note had been along the following lines: "I'm glad to know you are a fan of my
late husband's work. While it's gratifying to me that so many desire to share
his works with others, I must regretfully inform you that the web page you've
linked to infringes copyrights owned by the Heinlein estate. I have requested
that the owner take down the page in question; in the meantime, please respect
my wishes and my husband's memory by removing your link. Yours sincerely...."
Wouldn't that have satisfied the legal requirement to defend the copyright?
Maybe not -- I'm no lawyer, retired or otherwise -- but it seems like it should,
and I'm certain it would have been more likely to achieve the desired end (i.e.,
removal of the link) than whatever note JP actually received.

It's been my recent observation that the world seems to be trending to a sort of
guilty-until-proven-innocent attitude about such things. A coworker recently got
a paycheck that was only half the normal amount (she's salaried, so her checks
are usually all identical). It turned out that the payroll department had
"determined" (actually, it turned out to be an accounting error that was
entirely theirs) she'd used too many vacation days last year... so they docked
her three days' pay. They never contacted her to investigate the discrepancy,
nor even to warn her that the deduction was coming. Nope, they just summary
sawed a big chunk of cash out of her budget. Needless to say, she was furious.

I had a similar thing happen to me, when a medical imaging company left a *very*
abrupt message on my answering machine threatening to turn over my account (an
account I had no record of even having!) to a collection agency if I didn't pay
up right away. Upon investigation, it turned out that they'd never even tried to
send me a bill. Their beef (which turned out -- again! -- to be the result of a
clerical error) was with my insurance company directly. When I told their
customer "service" rep that I didn't appreciate being threatened, her answer was
that if they didn't put it that way, people wouldn't respond. Now, as a
practical matter you may think that makes some sense... but surely you can also
understand why it p!ssed me off.

Neither of these incidents has anything to do with copyright, of course, but
they both have to do with folks taking an aggressive, combative approach in
situations where a more friendly approach would not only have been gentler, but
also likely more effective.

-JovBill

PS: NONE of the above is intended as a criticism of Mrs. Heinlein. I don't know
what JP received, nor who wrote it, nor anything else about the "case. "I'm
certain Mrs. Heinlein is a wonderful lady, and I wish her nothing but the best.


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18528
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:09:01 -0800
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Bill Dauphin wrote:

   "David M. Silver" wrote:

   > John Paul Vrolyk wrote:
   >
   > >
   > > Are you going to cancel that message you just sent, which has
   > > a link to that same site?
   > >
   > Why in the world would I wish to do that, John? ... I'm not identifying that
   > page so that people will run over to read the
   > Notebooks, ...

   [snip]

   the offending page *does* contain a rather prominent
   copyright notice. I *know* that doesn't mean it's not an infringement, but it
   may have led JP to believe the page was legit. (Heck, even the owner of the page

   may have innocently believed it was legit.) I've heard wildly differing opinions

   about Fair Use (particularly WRT the web) coming from folks I know are honest
   and well-meaning.

And here you have, Bill, perhaps the reason for what followed. Imagine having those

wildly-different reasons by 'well-meaning' folk thrust back into your face
following a
polite 'I'm glad you are a fan of my late husband's work, but ... etc. ... ' the
first hundred
(literally) or so times. You might find yourself not only over-straining your tired
eyes
and limited time and patience left to read and try to understand them, but also
find likely
as not the same sorts of argument being thrust at you by persons who are not at all

well-meaning, e.g., having to employ international law specialists to negotiate
cessation
of blatant infringement in places such as Moscow with foundations underwriting the
Internet in such countries who report back their own having received the same
prattle
offered in defense -- and very much of it is prattle legally -- by those who have
web-published well nigh the entire corpus of the author's works for clearly and
easily
provable commercial purposes. Once you have to employ that sort of legal talent,
you're
very far beyond the $3,000 price attorney's fees limit some persons are suprised to
find
it takes to file an application for a mere initial determination that a literary
association is
a charity under our tax laws. Or, perhaps, finding the same infringements offered
as a
shield to their own clearly commerical conduct by so-called boutique print
publishers
here in the United States, hearing them defending in Court their practices by
relying not
only on the so-called defend-it-or-lose-it principal you note below but by their
bringing
to the Court's attention the seemingly ignored infringements on the Internet by
some of
the same infringers who offer such prattle in their own defense. You might even
begin to
suspect that the boutique publishers are underwriting the costs of the Internet
infringers
to create their own defense. Try proving that sort of suspicion. The SFWA has been
sending out bulletins warning numerous authors of how they leave themselves open to

defenses such as this when they ignore Internet infringements.

I've said I don't represent or purport to represent Mrs. Heinlein in her efforts to
stop this
conduct; but that doesn't mean I haven't received more than a hint of exactly what
she's
faced in the past two or three years in attempts to put a stop to infringements on
the
Internet. It doesn't mean for example I haven't read copies of replies very hurtful
to a
woman her age that she's received to the sort of 'I'm glad you are a fan ... etc.",
letters
that occurs to you and occurred to her initially might have been sent. After a time
of
this--perhaps after the fiftieth or so letter spouting such prattle, frequently
accompanied
by infantile insults of the sort we've all come to recognize as common to the
Internet's
flame wars--or perhaps after tracking down and sending the fiftieth or so letter
that has
had to be written to go to a seller of space (like Earthlink, perhaps, or perhaps a
much
smaller one owned by folk who have a 'well-meaning' belief that has to be
corrected)
demanding that either the the infringement by their customer come down or the
customer's account be terminated, perhaps you might understand why arguably the
velvet glove was worn out.

I wouldn't be too surprised to find that now no one receives letters of the "I'm so
glad
you're a fan of my late husband," sort for reasons exactly like those described
above.

   I know that there's a defend-it-or-lose-it principle WRT copyright, and I fully
   respect that Mrs. Heinlein and her advisors have both a right and a duty to
   protect the estate's property... but where is it written that such efforts have
   to be confrontational or accusatory? JP hasn't shared any of the details of the
   note he received with us, but I can't imagine he'd have reacted as he has if the

   note had been along the following lines: "I'm glad to know you are a fan of my
   late husband's work. While it's gratifying to me that so many desire to share
   his works with others, I must regretfully inform you that the web page you've
   linked to infringes copyrights owned by the Heinlein estate. I have requested
   that the owner take down the page in question; in the meantime, please respect
   my wishes and my husband's memory by removing your link. Yours sincerely...."

See above.

   Wouldn't that have satisfied the legal requirement to defend the copyright?
   Maybe not -- I'm no lawyer, retired or otherwise -- but it seems like it should,

   and I'm certain it would have been more likely to achieve the desired end (i.e.,

   removal of the link) than whatever note JP actually received.

Further, you have to consider what happened here as perhaps typical. JP's initial
defensive gambit was to say he didn't have the Notebook on his page, but merely a
reference thereto. He didn't mention that reference was a hyperlink. Perhaps it
didn't
seem a material difference. A link might properly be characterized a mere reference
by
some, but not everyone looks at it that way. Think analogy. A newspaper that
publishes
a slander by an individual can be accountable for libel by so doing. First thing
this old
ex-lawyer thought when I saw the link was "Re-publication." Someone who requires
*at**least* eighteen point type to be able to puzzle out the meaning of what she
reads
might not even notice, without concentrated effort, that the link is to an URL not
a part
of JP's website--I can tell you that not only does the AOL browser she uses not
increase
the size of the type of the URL, but that if you detach that floating bar, you may
not even
have the URL appear on the part of the bar on your desktop when you use a link to
get
to a site. You'll have to consult with a physician to determine what someone with
an
advanced macular disorder actually sees when he or she tries to read. I'm not
qualified to
tell you, but I understand it's like looking around the end of your thumb about a
quarter-inch in front of your eye when you try to read. Then of course, there is
the
unqualified opinion viewpoint that a link is not a republication of an
infringement. That's
not settled law nor quite that simple. Law in general isn't ever quite that simple.

Copyright law is one of the less simple areas of law. Would that have been
defensive
gambit number two, here? Probably not. JP's a true fan, and a gentleman--he even
doubted that the e mail address was valid, so he asked; but would you like to guess
how
many times that gambit has been played in like or related situations? I'm in my
late
fifties, now. I retired early, due in major part to physical illness (lung cancer
and a heart
condition if you didn't read my response to one of JT's roll calls a year or so
back), so
perhaps I'm not too typical; but I find myself with substantially less patience
with
camel's eye arguments than I used to have. I imagine that when I'm in my
mid-eighties,
if I make it, and neither my father nor mother did, I'm going to be one hell of a
lot less
patient and a great deal less pleasant when I'm defending my property.

   It's been my recent observation that the world seems to be trending to a sort of

   guilty-until-proven-innocent attitude about such things. A coworker recently got

   a paycheck that was only half the normal amount (she's salaried, so her checks
   are usually all identical). It turned out that the payroll department had
   "determined" (actually, it turned out to be an accounting error that was
   entirely theirs) she'd used too many vacation days last year... so they docked
   her three days' pay. They never contacted her to investigate the discrepancy,
   nor even to warn her that the deduction was coming. Nope, they just summary
   sawed a big chunk of cash out of her budget. Needless to say, she was furious.

   I had a similar thing happen to me, when a medical imaging company left a *very*

   abrupt message on my answering machine threatening to turn over my account (an
   account I had no record of even having!) to a collection agency if I didn't pay
   up right away. Upon investigation, it turned out that they'd never even tried to

   send me a bill. Their beef (which turned out -- again! -- to be the result of a
   clerical error) was with my insurance company directly. When I told their
   customer "service" rep that I didn't appreciate being threatened, her answer was

   that if they didn't put it that way, people wouldn't respond. Now, as a
   practical matter you may think that makes some sense... but surely you can also
   understand why it p!ssed me off.

   Neither of these incidents has anything to do with copyright, of course, but
   they both have to do with folks taking an aggressive, combative approach in
   situations where a more friendly approach would not only have been gentler, but
   also likely more effective.

I agree that a less-aggressive, less direct approach may be gentler. Regrettably in
legal
matters, against some it isn't at all effective. Many view politeness in legal
matters as
weakness and an invitation or license to delay, protract, harass, and counterclaim.
It
comes in my view from large law firms hiring associates just out of law school at
salaries that require billing rates currently just under $300 an hour and then
demanding
that they actually work and bill clients more than fifty hours weekly. They come up
with demand letters, and letters that respond to demand letters, that so far
surpass in annoyance quotient what Mrs. Heinlein sent it would make you sick.

A result here, the 'trickle down' effect is of the sort five-year-old children
experience
when they don't have sufficient time to wipe themselves. Some people, and the
Internet
is full of them, delight in that sort of response. There is no way at the outset of
a contact
to determine which ones they are. In the case of some, it depends on what they had
for
breakfast, as JP implied quite correctly. Regrettably, I more than suspect Mrs. H
has
been the recipient of it more than once. Hence, JP and folk in his position now get

communications that lack the velvet glove everyone would prefer to use.


   -JovBill

   PS: NONE of the above is intended as a criticism of Mrs. Heinlein. I don't know
   what JP received, nor who wrote it, nor anything else about the "case. "I'm
   certain Mrs. Heinlein is a wonderful lady, and I wish her nothing but the best.

I understand fully, and am not criticizing anyone in this communication. I'm merely

exploring what may be a point of view that may not be as apparent as it should be.
As to
sincerely wishing Mrs. Heinlein the best I know We all do.

David






------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18529
From: David Wright" <maikosht@alltel.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:25:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com> wrote in message
news:3A8C9947.72D9EB3A@loop.com...
> JT wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > What I find interesting is the idea that Mrs. H. would spend her time
> > pursuing things like this.  I would think that the estate would have a
> > lawyer to issue letters like this one.
> >
> > I also thought that straight hyperlinks have already "won out" in
> > court, but I have no legal research to back that up.  It's sad all
> > around.
>
> Perhaps the legal bills of a system that charges $3,000 to file an
> application for an charitable deduction has something to do with that.
> Everytime a lawyer writes a letter, its costs large money.
>
> It is sad all around.
>
> David
>
>
It has been confirmed that astyanax12 is indeed Virginia Heinlein. I can't
believe that anyone could try to criticize her in any fashion in trying to
protect her rights, no matter how 'impolite' or 'rude' the recipient
perceived the notification to be, (and we only have the word of the original
poster about this), or suggested that she shouldn't be wasting her time
'pursuing things like this' and have a lawyer do it. If Robert were still
alive and had sent the message himself, would *anyone* here have suggested
'better ways' for him to have notified the infringer, or suggested that 'it
was just a link' to try to justify the infringement, or that he shouldn't
'pursue little things like this'? I think not!

I am ashamed that any Heinlein fan would hesitate in any way not to comply
with her wishes. I know that I did it with respect to russian translations
and when I realized the enormity of my error, I deleted all mention of links
to them and informed her what I done, and apologized.

 David Wright




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18530
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 00:09:37 GMT
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 16 Feb 2001 11:25:51 -0500, "David Wright"
<maikosht@alltel.net> wrote:

>It has been confirmed that astyanax12 is indeed Virginia Heinlein. I can't
>believe that anyone could try to criticize her in any fashion in trying to
>protect her rights, no matter how 'impolite' or 'rude' the recipient
>perceived the notification to be, (and we only have the word of the original
>poster about this), or suggested that she shouldn't be wasting her time
>'pursuing things like this' and have a lawyer do it. If Robert were still
>alive and had sent the message himself, would *anyone* here have suggested
>'better ways' for him to have notified the infringer, or suggested that 'it
>was just a link' to try to justify the infringement, or that he shouldn't
>'pursue little things like this'? I think not!

You think wrong!

To answer your question, yes, if RAH were alive and sent such an email
to *me*, I'd certainly wonder why he was biting the fan that fed him.


It has been suggested that Mrs. H.may have misunderstood that JP was
linking to, not hosting, the content in question, in part due to her
poor eyesight. So maybe JP got a harsh letter by mistake instead of a
polite one, we don't know that.  

What bothers me personally is that I don't like the idea that she may
not *care* to differentiate, but I'll give her the benefit of the
doubt that she sent the "harsh" letter instead of the "polite" one.

Am I to worry now because I link to other RAH sites via the HF web
page? 

 I was careful not to infringe on any sort of copyright via images or
text I have posted.  I have not personally scrutinized every page on
every site I have linked to, nor do I intend to.  If I got a letter
like JP did, I would also be angry that she painted me with the same
brush as someone abusing a copyright.

NOT that anyone guilty of overstepping fair use and infringing
copyright shouldn't be pursued.  Mrs. H. needs to protect the estate.
I feel sorry for her that she has to spend her time doing this, but I
also feel sorry for the fan who gets an abusive letter and hasn't
violated any law.    

Possibly this is an avenue that the web committee of the Heinlein
Society could help take on in return for some monetary consideration
by the Estate.  It would be a cheaper fee than a lawyer would charge
and it would be handled by those more suited to inspecting web sites.
Those that are truly violating copyright get referred to the Estate's
lawyers, those that aren't get a polite letter and see the error of
their ways.  Everybody wins.

JT




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18531
From: John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:18:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT wrote:
>  I was careful not to infringe on any sort of copyright via images or
> text I have posted.  I have not personally scrutinized every page on
> every site I have linked to, nor do I intend to.

It's worse that even having to scrutinize every page.
You're merely providing an address, but what is at that
address can change at any time, and you have no control
over that.

My website contains addresses for a number of other sites
on the Internet.  Any of those addresses may have had,
may currently have, or may in the future have copyrighted
material on them, and that's beyond my power, or, as far
as I am concerned, my responsibility.

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18532
From: John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:39:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

David Wright wrote:
> It has been confirmed that astyanax12 is indeed Virginia Heinlein.

Thank you very much, sir.  That was what I wished to know.

> I am ashamed that any Heinlein fan would hesitate in any way not to comply
> with her wishes.

Excuse me?  You think any fan should do any and every thing
Mrs. Heinlein wants, even if she were to make an error?  I'm
assuming you're just being melodramatic.  Let me in return
be melodramatic:  would you kill yourself or your family
if she wished you to?  How about just take down your entire
website, regardless of it's contents?

I follow my own morals, and follow the law of the land well
enough to stay out of trouble.  But I am not a slave.  If
by your lights that makes me not a fan, so be it.

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
http://www.vrolyk.org/jp/
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18533
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 21:40:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

John Paul Vrolyk wrote:

> David Wright wrote:
>
>
> > I am ashamed that any Heinlein fan would hesitate in any way not to comply
> > with her wishes.
>
> Excuse me?  You think any fan should do any and every thing
> Mrs. Heinlein wants, even if she were to make an error?

I think what was meant was, "comply with her wishes with regard to taking down
complete copies of the Notebooks" - or indeed any publishing of his works that
goes beyond  fair use.
I have a feeling that the letter you got was the same as the post Mrs Heinlein
made to afh yesterday. You could pop over and take a look to confirm this. If it
is, well, it didn't seem threatening to me but obviously it's a YMMV situation.
I think she's just getting sick and tired of it all. The net is a hazard to
writer's copyrights that no one could  have envisioned a decade or two ago. This
is the tip of the iceberg maybe but I think she's just trying to do all she can
to hold on to what she has left.

I know that most of the fans involved probably have no malicious intent; it's
their way of showing how much those quotations mean but there's no getting away
from the fact that Notebooks is a book in its own right that is for _sale_. It's
not up to those people to give it away for free; it's not theirs to give.

I can appreciate you feeling that you have been castigated for something you
feel you're innocent of and that you think Mrs Heinlein should have been more
selective in who she targeted. Maybe, but those of us who chat with Ginny on AIM
every other week and know what a nice lady she is, feel protective about her.
She is registered blind, she's done an amazing job IMO in adapting to the
computer at all at her age and she's had a lot of trouble with sites that
reproduce the entire text of Heinlein's novels. Cut her some slack.

Jane




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18534
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 22:09:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3A8DD16F.69AD183F@vrolyk.org>, John Paul Vrolyk writes...
....
> It's worse that even having to scrutinize every page.
> You're merely providing an address, but what is at that
> address can change at any time, and you have no control
> over that.

True.  But it would be wise not to link to pages that do have infringing 
material at the time that a link is considered.

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18535
From: John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 07:22:26 -0500
Subject: Resolved. (Was: Re: Strange email received...)
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

ddavitt wrote:
> I have a feeling that the letter you got was the same as the post Mrs Heinlein
> made to afh yesterday. You could pop over and take a look to confirm this.

I did take a look over there.  The letter I get was
more specifically accusatory and harsher in tone.  A
non-trivial part of my annoyance was also the mispelling
of my name.

> Cut her some slack.

Why do you think I posted my question here?  I had no
desire to cut slack to an imposter.

To let everyone know, the situation has been resolved.
I sent Mrs. Heinlein a letter explaining the situation,
and she sent me back a very nice letter, apologising for
the mistake about the web page, plus chatting about
some personal matters.

Thanks to everyone for their opinions, advice, and
especially for confirming that it was Mrs. Heinlein's
email address.

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
http://www.vrolyk.org/jp/
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18536
From: David Wright" <dwrigsr@alltel.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 10:29:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"John Paul Vrolyk" <jp@vrolyk.org> wrote in message
news:3A8DD66E.72AD3ADC@vrolyk.org...
> David Wright wrote:
> > It has been confirmed that astyanax12 is indeed Virginia Heinlein.
>
> Thank you very much, sir.  That was what I wished to know.
>
> > I am ashamed that any Heinlein fan would hesitate in any way not to
comply
> > with her wishes.
>
> Excuse me?  You think any fan should do any and every thing
> Mrs. Heinlein wants, even if she were to make an error?  I'm
> assuming you're just being melodramatic.  Let me in return
> be melodramatic:  would you kill yourself or your family
> if she wished you to?  How about just take down your entire
> website, regardless of it's contents?
>

My apologies for not being clearer on this. I was speaking strictly on the
subject at hand, i.e. posting of a link to material which was violating
copyright law. Now I can understand that you may not have realized that such
a link might itself constitute a violation of the law, (AFIK, this is still
not clear), and thus can not be blamed for putting it there in the first
place. I can understand your reluctance to accept that it was really Mrs. H
writing, because of the perceived tone of 'rudeness' etc.  I hope, by now,
that you have recognized a) that it was indeed her, b) she has considerable
reason to personally write such a request, regardless of how the 'tone is
perceived', c) the *material* to which your link is pointing is in violation
of copyright law, d) whether or not you are actually in violation yourself,
maintaining such a link does tend to perpetuate the violation and e) she may
not have been aware of the fact that the material was not on your website,
(Actually, links often point to pages on the same site, and, indeed, often
to different portions of the *same* page).

Part of my reply to you earlier contained references to other posters'
criticisms of Mrs. H. 'not writing more nicely' in such a request. (I
acknowledge that you didn't say this yourself, but were simply questioning
the authenticity because of the tone). I, frankly, was very irritated by
such criticisms. These were done, IIRC, after it was made clear to the list
about the  points I outlined above and insulted, I felt, someone who is, to
my personal knowledge, totally undeserving of such criticisms. If no insult
was intended, then I apologize to those whom I have offended.

David Wright





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18537
From: John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 12:58:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

David Wright wrote:
> I hope, by now,
> that you have recognized a) that it was indeed her,

> e) she may
> not have been aware of the fact that the material was not on your website,
> (Actually, links often point to pages on the same site, and, indeed, often
> to different portions of the *same* page).

Yes, I now know that it was Mrs. Heinlein, and that she
mistakenly thought I had the material on my website.

> b) she has considerable
> reason to personally write such a request, regardless of how the 'tone is
> perceived',

She has reason to stop copyright violations, yes.

> c) the *material* to which your link is pointing is in violation
> of copyright law,

I suspect so, though I have no personal knowledge of that.
If, that is, the material that I saw there at at least one
point in time is still there.  It could change at any time.

> d) whether or not you are actually in violation yourself,
> maintaining such a link does tend to perpetuate the violation and

Bah.  I do *not* recognize that.  We can argue this point
further if you like, but I rather doubt you'll convince me
to try to claim responsibility for someone else's actions.

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
http://www.vrolyk.org/jp/
jp@vrolyk.org

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18538
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:02:34 -0500
Subject: Re: A Major Outing
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Jake:  I must have missed "Dark Passage" by the sound of that
description it.
I do like Bogart's movies and managed to miss some of the good ones.
I don't think that I have seen 'Sierra Madre' from start to finish.
IIRC, the director's father (Houston Sr. ) is in it.

Ed J



On Mon, 5 Feb 2001 02:36:50 -0500, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
..>From www.imdb.com
>
>"Bogart plays a man convicted of murdering his wife who escapes from prison
>in order to prove his innocence. Bogart finds that his features are too well
>known, and is forced to seek some illicit backroom plastic surgery. The
>entire pre-knife part of the film is shot from a Bogart's-eye-view, with us
>seeing the fugitive for the first time as he starts to recuperate from the
>operation in the apartment of a sympathetic young artist (played by Bacall)
>for whom he soon finds affection. But what he's really after is revenge."
>
>I haven't seen this one, so I can't comment/


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18539
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:16:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Space Station Alpha
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

WJake:     Shouldn't the cost of launching astronauts to Earth's SS
named "Alpha" be cheaper from the Soyuz than via Shuttle?   Even
taking an additional 50 thousand lbs or so of supplies up to Alpha
with the crew is still not very cost effective.
I love the concept of a permanently manned (?peopled) station, but
hate the high costs of today's launch vehicles to build it.


Ed J


On Wed, 14 Feb 2001 01:53:47 -0500, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:

>
>
>Except that Mir is still bigger, in terms of weight, volume, span, etc. So
>it isn't the largest, just yet.
>
>> eh?  I just wish we didn't have to depend on Shuttles to get the parts
>> up there.  I want it done already! <VBG>
>
>Again, we don't. The first part of Alpha (its official name, btw) was
>launched by the Russians. I forget what other parts will be launched on
>Russkie rockets, have to check the manifest. Plus they are using Soyuz for
>launching people.
>
>
>> I know this isn't a great post, but I couldn't let TWO days go by
>> without seeing something posted here.... ;)
>
>It's evaluation time at work, I've been busy!
>
>Other cool things:
>We had an industrial accident in space, an ammonia line pumped coolant all
>over a spacewalker as the were hooking up the Destiny module. No serious
>problem, but they were worried about ammonia crystals sticking to the space
>suit and getting into the station. You really don't want to breathe that
>stuff!
>
>The world's (or off-world's) finest quality vacuum proof window has been
>opened up on the Destiny module. 4 high quality panes of glass, with a
>protective shutter system that can be closed when the window isn't being
>used. And it will be used for more than just Earth-gazing. Cameras and other
>instruments will be pointed out the picture window, for serious science. See
>the highlights on "This Old Space Station" with Bob Vila and Norm.
>
>
>Even more interesting was the landing of NEAR-Shoemaker on the asteroid
>Eros. Durn thing was never meant to LAND anywhere! Telemetry is still being
>received, the solar cells are getting power, and it looks like other
>instruments on the spacecraft are functioning. There is even an outside
>chance they may try to launch NEAR again. A bit of fuel remains onboard,
>they could try to launch it again, and get some more low level pictures and
>data on the way up.


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18540
From: David Wright" <dwrigsr@alltel.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:41:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"John Paul Vrolyk" <jp@vrolyk.org> wrote in message
news:3A8EBBDA.9CC6D00@vrolyk.org...
> David Wright wrote:
> > I hope, by now,
> > that you have recognized a) that it was indeed her,
>
> > e) she may
> > not have been aware of the fact that the material was not on your
website,
> > (Actually, links often point to pages on the same site, and, indeed,
often
> > to different portions of the *same* page).
>
> Yes, I now know that it was Mrs. Heinlein, and that she
> mistakenly thought I had the material on my website.
>
> > b) she has considerable
> > reason to personally write such a request, regardless of how the 'tone
is
> > perceived',
>
> She has reason to stop copyright violations, yes.
>
> > c) the *material* to which your link is pointing is in violation
> > of copyright law,
>
> I suspect so, though I have no personal knowledge of that.
> If, that is, the material that I saw there at at least one
> point in time is still there.  It could change at any time.
>

You do have personal knowledge. You have been told so by the copyright owner
herself as you said in your original post. I see no reason how you or
anyone could say merely 'I suspect so'. (I am speaking specifically about
the material called 'The Notebooks of Lazarus Long' at the URL given on your
page. See below for my comments on your link)

> > d) whether or not you are actually in violation yourself,
> > maintaining such a link does tend to perpetuate the violation and
>
> Bah.  I do *not* recognize that.  We can argue this point
> further if you like, but I rather doubt you'll convince me
> to try to claim responsibility for someone else's actions.
>
> --

As I said, I don't know if this constitutes a copyright violation in itself.
Frankly, I doubt that it does, but your link points directly to the
copyrighted material in question.

(omitted section)/~dave/lazarus.html  The full URL has been omitted for
obvious reasons.

I would have given you the benefit of the doubt had you just had a link to
this person's main web page, but the direct link indicates some degree of
encouragement *on your part* for a reader to go there. So I am not
suggesting that you claim responsibility for someone else's actions, just
your own.

David Wright






------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18541
From: John Paul Vrolyk <jp@vrolyk.org>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:22:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

David Wright wrote:
> > > c) the *material* to which your link is pointing is in violation
> > > of copyright law,
> >
> > I suspect so, though I have no personal knowledge of that.
> > If, that is, the material that I saw there at at least one
> > point in time is still there.  It could change at any time.
> >
> 
> You do have personal knowledge. You have been told so by the copyright owner
> herself as you said in your original post. I see no reason how you or
> anyone could say merely 'I suspect so'. (I am speaking specifically about
> the material called 'The Notebooks of Lazarus Long' at the URL given on your
> page. See below for my comments on your link)

Don't you think it's rather arrogant to suggest that *you* know
better than I of what I do or do not have personal knowledge?

In the original email I received, no particular URL was
discussed at all.  I don't even really know who controls
that web server, let alone what if any arrangements they
may or may not have had in times past with the copyright
holder, nor even whether their posting might fall under
"fair use".  So, yes, I merely suspect that they have never
had any permission to post it, and that it's more than would
be allowed by fair use.

> ...your link points directly to the
> copyrighted material in question.

My web page mentions an address which, when I looked yesterday,
did have copyrighted materials on it.  I don't constantly
montior such addresses, nor keep track of their legal status.

> ...the direct link indicates some degree of
> encouragement *on your part* for a reader to go there. So I am not
> suggesting that you claim responsibility for someone else's actions, just
> your own.

I claim full responsibility to having various addresses
mentioned in my web page.

I deny any responsibility for what's at those addresses which
are not part of my web site, and also deny any responsibility
for the actions of those, who, upon reading my webpage,
decide of their own free will to look up, connect to, and
request documents therefrom.  Those are solely their own
actions, regardless of whether you or I or they think I was
encouraging them.

-- 
John Paul Vrolyk
http://www.vrolyk.org/jp/
jp@vrolyk

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18542
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 17:10:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Space Station Alpha
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com> wrote

> WJake:     Shouldn't the cost of launching astronauts to Earth's SS
> named "Alpha" be cheaper from the Soyuz than via Shuttle?   Even

Yes and no. It does cost less to launch a Soyuz than a Shuttle, but the
costs are very hard to figure. To be honest, we don't know. If you think
computing the cost per pound of a shuttle launch is difficult, it's nearly
impossible to figure the cost of a Russian launch. Yes, Energia will quote
you a price, but is that what it really costs? The Russians, Kazahks,
Ukrainians, et al are desperate for American hard currency. So they will do
what it takes to get you to launch with them. That's one reason there are
negotiated limits on commercial satellite launches with the US, Russians and
Arianespace. Nobody wants the other country's govt. subsidised space launch
business to be able to undercut their own, price-wise.
Plus, what is the true cost of the hardware? We really don't know anymore,
because different parts are/were made by different countries or the former
SovUnion.
But I digress...

> taking an additional 50 thousand lbs or so of supplies up to Alpha
> with the crew is still not very cost effective.

Progress can handle, uh 30,000 lbs I believe, so there is that option. Plus,
the Shuttle can launch things that would be more difficult to put up with a
conventional booster. Things like the Destiny module now in place. And the
Shuttle's robotic arm does make it easier to move things around once you get
them there.

> I love the concept of a permanently manned (?peopled) station, but
> hate the high costs of today's launch vehicles to build it.

It's what we have at the moment, and for the near future.



--
WJaKe

http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18543
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 21:53:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Resolved. (Was: Re: Strange email received...)
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3A8E6D02.91874684@vrolyk.org>, John Paul Vrolyk writes...
....
>  A
> non-trivial part of my annoyance was also the mispelling
> of my name.

With /your/ name?  I don't even expect people to spell "Sollars" 
correctly!  ;-)


-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18544
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:22:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Resolved. (Was: Re: Strange email received...)
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



"Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:

> In article <3A8E6D02.91874684@vrolyk.org>, John Paul Vrolyk writes...
> ...
> >  A
> > non-trivial part of my annoyance was also the mispelling
> > of my name.
>
> With /your/ name?  I don't even expect people to spell "Sollars"
> correctly!  ;-)

How do you know it wasn't "John" or "Paul" that was misspelled? <VBG>

But I agree with your point: One certainly wouldn't have to be 80+ or
legally blind to misspell "Vrolyk." (Heck, I even cut-and-pasted it to
be sure I didn't hose it up myself!) <G&RLH>

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18545
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:51:24 -0500
Subject: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Notwithstanding the fact that the participants here are too erudite and 
sophisticated for their full and precise views to be encapsulated by any 
simple statement, and whereas I fully grant that I am extrapolating from 
a sample much too small to demonstrate any statistical significance, and 
furthermore recognize that I implicitly make an arbitrary and perhaps 
mistaken characterization of some of the participants in a recent 
discussion here into the categories of "youngster" and "oldster", 
nevertheless, after careful consideration of the foregoing, I wonder if 
we have some evidence for the hypothesis that oldsters take copyright 
violations more seriously that youngsters?*  I further hypothesize that 
this is due to an array of different attitudes that have been sparked 
among the youngsters vis-a-vis the oldsters by an early exposure to 
digital technology and its concomitant ability to make highy inexpensive, 
yet perfect, copies.

Indeed, I urge upon us a discussion of this latter hypothesis, even if 
the purported evidence for the former is completely and firmly rejected, 
and done so even by those characterized as "youngsters".

In short, folks, copyright and our traditional attitudes toward it are in 
a hell of a lot of trouble, IMHO.   



*I was inspired by some of David's resent prose, and wanted to assert a 
claim for the longest sentence posted to this group.  ;-)
  
-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18546
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:59:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



"David M. Silver" wrote:

> <a patient, well thought-out response>

All points well taken. Even so...

[a] I find it surprising that Mrs. H does this stuff herself. Granting without the
slightest question the need to protect the Heinlein estate's intellectual property,
I'd still think that she'd have no shortage of of people willing to help her... either
volunteers from among the Heinleins' many devoted fans (which number no doubt includes
some folks with legal training), or the estate's literary representatives and their
retainers. In addition, given what you've said about the difficulty with which Mrs. H
uses her computer, I'd think her time on the 'net would be far too precious to spend
on unpleasantness. However, she apparently *does* police these sites herself, no doubt
for good and sufficient (albeit personal) reasons. That being the case...

[b] ...as a purely pragmatic/tactical matter, I *still* think a conspicously polite
(even friendly) letter would be the most effective "first contact" in such cases: It's
utterly predictable that a significant fraction of the folks infringing the Heinlein
copyrights on the Web are in fact true fans who would never *intentionally* hurt Mrs.
H or damage her husband's legacy, but who are violating the copyrights out of
ignorance or carelessness. From the vast majority of those folks, a *nice* letter from
Mrs. H would likely elicit prompt compliance, an immediate and heartfelt apology, and
perhaps even an overture of personal friendship (I don't know the story, but David
Wright hints in another post that his may have been such a case), all without any
further unpleasantness or cost. An *angry* letter, OTOH, is *far* more likely to get
"thrown back in her face," as you put it... because nobody likes to be cussed out by
hir hero, even when s/he knows it's deserved. If you put out an angry message and get
anger in response, you haven't learned anything... because what else would you expect?
OTOH, if you put out a friendly message and get anger in response, you've learned
something valuable about your correspondent: The "fans" who would throw *even a nice
letter* back in Mrs. H's face have self-selected as jerks worth investing legal fees
on.

Anyway, JP and Mrs. H appear to have made peace (even if he and David W can't seem to
<g>), so I guess this discussion has become moot... for the time being.

-JovBill



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18547
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:05:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



"Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:

> ...I wonder if
> we have some evidence for the hypothesis that oldsters take copyright
> violations more seriously that youngsters?

I'll have to think a while before posting on the basic issue. In the
meantime, as a 40 year old, I can't help wondering which category I'm in?

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18548
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 07:07:54 GMT
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

<snipped,for brevity's sake>

I have long been unhappy about the way copyrights seem to be going
these days, my particular pet peeve is EULAs. I personally think that
a concept(patents,copyrights, et al) are based on old thought, tech,
attitudes that are way out of date. Trying to "shoehorn" all this
stuff in under old laws, rules, & customs, I believe is a large part
of the problem. I think that new means need to be found, for
regulating & enforcing this stuff. I'm not really enuf of a tech head
to have what these miraculous solutions might be, but IMHO(ha) I'm
fairly sure that you're not going to find a solution based on models a
century or so old.

BTW, just for curiousity's sake, I'm staring 46 in the face, am I a
oldster or youngster?? (don't even think about it JT<g>) 

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18549
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:14:45 -0800
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Bill Dauphin wrote:

> "David M. Silver" wrote:
>
> > <a patient, well thought-out response>
>
> All points well taken. Even so...
>
> [a]

[snipped because I basically agree, even though there might be some problems in creating
something that doesn't (1) potentially cause agency problems for the estate, (2) doesn't
run amok, and (3) doesn't create some other problem that might affect such things as say:
tax-exempt status for a literary society. In other words JT's idea, and your elaboration
thereon, has merit but would have to be structured very carefully avoid serious
problems.] I'd be happy to discuss this with either you or JT, or both of you, by e mail
or otherwise.

> [b] ...as a purely pragmatic/tactical matter, I *still* think a conspicously polite
> (even friendly) letter would be the most effective "first contact" in such cases: It's
> utterly predictable that a significant fraction of the folks infringing the Heinlein
> copyrights on the Web are in fact true fans who would never *intentionally* hurt Mrs.
> H or damage her husband's legacy, but who are violating the copyrights out of
> ignorance or carelessness. From the vast majority of those folks, a *nice* letter from
> Mrs. H would likely elicit prompt compliance, an immediate and heartfelt apology, and
> perhaps even an overture of personal friendship (I don't know the story, but David
> Wright hints in another post that his may have been such a case), all without any
> further unpleasantness or cost. An *angry* letter, OTOH, is *far* more likely to get
> "thrown back in her face," as you put it... because nobody likes to be cussed out by
> hir hero, even when s/he knows it's deserved. If you put out an angry message and get
> anger in response, you haven't learned anything... because what else would you expect?
> OTOH, if you put out a friendly message and get anger in response, you've learned
> something valuable about your correspondent: The "fans" who would throw *even a nice
> letter* back in Mrs. H's face have self-selected as jerks worth investing legal fees
> on.

I like your quasi-Darwinism Award approach.

> Anyway, JP and Mrs. H appear to have made peace (even if he and David W can't seem to
> <g>), so I guess this discussion has become moot... for the time being.
>
> -JovBill

I think we'll all learn a bit as the Napster lawsuit rolls on ... for the time being.

David





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18550
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:28:37 -0800
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader wrote:

> <snipped,for brevity's sake>
>
> [snipped some interesting thoughts, for the sake of the quick bon mot
> that follows]
>
> BTW, just for curiousity's sake, I'm staring 46 in the face, am I a
> oldster or youngster?? (don't even think about it JT<g>)
>
> Fader

Don't know about you, old fellow, but I'm still about twenty-three in my
mind, that same handsome young fellow with the lovely new wife who was
just RFAD and enrolled on the newly-passed GI Bill at UCLA.

Of course, I find myself much less annoyed at persons who spell my last
name "Sliver," or "Silvers," even if I suspect it's deliberate or mutter
"Hi-Yo!" when they see me--d'ya 'spose that's a sign of the outset of
senility?

David


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18551
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:08:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3A8F49E9.4F73778@ix.netcom.com>, Bill Dauphin writes...
....
> I'll have to think a while before posting on the basic issue. In the
> meantime, as a 40 year old, I can't help wondering which category I'm in?

I believe that 40 is the age commonly used for eligibility for legal 
claims of age discrimination.   But far be it from me to deny you 
youngster status in this discussion if you want it.  ;-) 

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18552
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:13:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a8f7162.9204401@news.sff.net>, Fader writes...
....
> BTW, just for curiousity's sake, I'm staring 46 in the face, am I a
> oldster or youngster?? (don't even think about it JT<g>) 

Great Googlie-Mooglie!  I'm older than Fader!

Well, I think you are into oldster territory, but as I said to Bill, you 
may self select either category.  Indeed, your very recognition of the 
problem I mentioned indicates youngster tendencies.  As does mine, too, 
of course.  ;-)

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18553
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:47:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader:    Those who knew (know) me best declared me to be "old man
Ed" when I had attained the ripe old age of 12 standard years <G>.
  So I guess that I have been "old" for nearly 40 years now.
I certainly think like the 'older' (pre WW2 adult) generation in
most matters where age is a dividing line.  Also today, in matters
of copyright protection, even thought I fall into the category of
the 'tech heads'.

Ed J  (reformed pirate)
PS:  contact with HF members half my age caused me to abandon pirate
ways over 6 years ago.  That goes to show that the 'younger set' can
be more protective of copyrights than their seniors!


On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 07:07:54 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:

><snipped,for brevity's sake>
>
>I have long been unhappy about the way copyrights seem to be going
>these days, my particular pet peeve is EULAs. I personally think that
>a concept(patents,copyrights, et al) are based on old thought, tech,
>attitudes that are way out of date. Trying to "shoehorn" all this
>stuff in under old laws, rules, & customs, I believe is a large part
>of the problem. I think that new means need to be found, for
>regulating & enforcing this stuff. I'm not really enuf of a tech head
>to have what these miraculous solutions might be, but IMHO(ha) I'm
>fairly sure that you're not going to find a solution based on models a
>century or so old.
>
>BTW, just for curiousity's sake, I'm staring 46 in the face, am I a
>oldster or youngster?? (don't even think about it JT<g>) 
>
>Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18554
From: SynABit@kc.invalid (Dennis Doms)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:07:36 GMT
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a8f7162.9204401@news.sff.net>, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:

><snipped,for brevity's sake>
>
>I have long been unhappy about the way copyrights seem to be going
>these days, my particular pet peeve is EULAs. I personally think that
>a concept(patents,copyrights, et al) are based on old thought, tech,
>attitudes that are way out of date. Trying to "shoehorn" all this
>stuff in under old laws, rules, & customs, I believe is a large part
>of the problem. I think that new means need to be found, for
>regulating & enforcing this stuff. I'm not really enuf of a tech head
>to have what these miraculous solutions might be, but IMHO(ha) I'm
>fairly sure that you're not going to find a solution based on models a
>century or so old.

I have long felt that software (and other) licenses should be restricted in
scope. Some of the EULA's include restrictions beyond the protection of
copyright, patents, and trademarks that I believe shouldn't be allowed on
mass-market materials where the "contract" isn't mutually negotiated. Also,
"spyware" and other abuses would not be discovered without some level of
disassembling or analysis which is restricted by some licenses.

When I buy a VCR, I don't have to worry [yet] about whether it's sending a
record of what I tape back to the parent company, but some software and
hardware companies seem to think they not only have an inherent right to know
how a product is used, but also to attempt to prevent the user from finding
out or telling others.

Our government (whom I work for, in part) is doing a lousy job of protecting
the interests of citizens in this regard.

I also find objectionable the issue of protections that allow companies to
provide unfair market advantage to certain segments, such as the DVD
protections that prevent products like Linux from having the same access as
commercial companies that can afford to ante up arbitrary licensing costs.

RE age division and respect for intellectual property: I don't think it really
is an "old versus" young issue as far as a division of ethics is concerned. I
think older people have less "free" time to spend doing things like ripping
and recompressing video, and more money to just pay for the item as long as
the price is reasonable.  Napster was a big success because it is pretty
painless with current technology to rip and transfer audio, but if it takes an
hour or so to download and assemble a ripped video that still looks worse than
a bad VCR copy then $30 for a quality DVD still looks economical. Of course,
as technology moves on that situation may change as well.

There are two problems colliding: a lack of respect for intellectual property,
and a certain lack of respect by media companies for their product and
consumers. Should a CD cost $15 or a DVD $30? Should I be inspired to buy
products from book companies that won't support artists like John Brunner but
would rather pay minimal salaries to have TV novelisations or other endless
series ("[big type] Isaac Asimov [small type] presents Nameless Author"-type
stuff) pumped out? [No offense intended to the authors; a buck is definitely a
buck and you have to develop somewhere.] Now that technology makes it easier
to steal some types of intellectual property, and we are entering an age where
information is the primary commodity, these issues are coming to the fore.

RE the "piracy" issue, I found the following article (from the creative
artists's point of view) interesting when it was mentioned in some music
newsgroups many months ago:

	http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/index.html

>BTW, just for curiousity's sake, I'm staring 46 in the face, am I a
>oldster or youngster?? (don't even think about it JT<g>) 
>
>Fader

 --
Dennis Doms  SynABit@kc.invalid  http://home.earthlink.net/~chemsleuth
[replace "invalid" with "rr.com" for valid mail]

  "It doesn't matter if we turn to dust; turn and turn and turn we must
         I guess I'll see you, dancing in the ruins tonight..."
	                 -- Blue Oyster Cult

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18555
From: hf_jai@prodigy.net (Jai Johnson-Pickett)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 16:50:55 GMT
Subject: Ginnie Heinlein, napster, etc
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Greetings all.  Thought I'd see if anyone was interested in revisiting
the issue of copyright'd material on the internet.  Just fishing for
opinions, I guess.

Anyway, I find myself wondering if the whole "problem" isn't a bit
overblown.  I know I can't get too excited about it.  Of course, I'm
not trying to make a living as a writer, performer, artist, whatever.

But really, is there any evidence that money sales of literature or
music have declined with the advent of electronic media?  Is there
anyone here who would decide not to buy a Heinlein book simply because
the text might be available on the internet?  Does anybody remember
the days when you could go into a music store and listen to any record
you wanted in a back-room designed just for free listening?  Does
anybody remember records? <g>

Myself, I am fairly active on-line, but I still buy a lot of books.  I
don't buy many CDs, but then, I think I've only downloaded one musical
piece in my life, and only because of special "holiday" circumstances
-- it was Adam Sandler's "Hannukah Song" and I doubt I would have ever
bought one of his albums just to get that one cut.

But there is a valid argument, I think, that internet availability is
good (and free) advertising--something producers & pubishers have been
known to pay alot of money for, even if the artists themselves don't
(altho, ultimately, the money comes from the artists).  As someone
said, "there's no such thing as bad publicity."

I do admit to using the internet to research info that I would once
have had to buy a book, gone to the library (which is another
point--always had free, if less convenient, access to copyrighted
stuff) or done without.  But I suppose if I were taking a school
course that required reading something I could find on the web, for
example one of Shakespere's works, I might not buy the text.  Or I
might--I like to be able to underline and annotate school books.  Yes,
I know copyrights are usually expired on classic works, but I could
foresee someone putting, say, a statistics manual on line so students
wouldn't have to buy it.  Textbooks are a bit of a racket for the
college professors who write them, but that's beside the point.

Perhaps I'm being shortsighted in where all this is going.  Or where
it could go.  Or maybe where it will go (so that the "industries"
involved had better learn to deal with it or go out of business--is
that Darwinian enough for this crowd?<g>).  In any case, I could
easily see myself arguing the other side.  But for this post, I just
wonder if the whole napster and related battles aren't kind of silly.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18556
From: hf_jai@prodigy.net (Jai Johnson-Pickett)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 17:13:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Hmmm... I no doubt should have read this thread before I posted my
last message.  Not that the two conflict significantly.

On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 22:51:24 -0500, Gordon G. Sollars
<gsollars@pobox.com> wrote:

<major snips thruout>
>I wonder if 
>we have some evidence for the hypothesis that oldsters take copyright 
>violations more seriously that youngsters?

FWIW, I'm probably an oldster (47 this year) and, as you may have
observed, I'm not particularly worried.  OTOH, I'm not sure that
anyone in the Forum qualifies as an oldster with respect to the
internet specifically or technology in general.  We're all pretty
"hip" in crusing the net (altho use of the word "hip" is probably in
itself evidence of oldsterism) compared to your average >40 citizen.

>I further hypothesize that 
>this is due to an array of different attitudes that have been sparked 
>among the youngsters vis-a-vis the oldsters by an early exposure to 
>digital technology and its concomitant ability to make highy inexpensive, 
>yet perfect, copies.

Or it could just be that youngsters tend not to take anything as
seriously as oldsters.

Unless it affects them directly, of course. Which may be why there's a
difference--we oldsters have the experiece to see how something may
affect us down the road a bit further.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18557
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:58:36 GMT
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 07:07:54 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>BTW, just for curiousity's sake, I'm staring 46 in the face, am I a
>oldster or youngster?? (don't even think about it JT<g>) 
>
Don't worry this time, Fader.  I'm finding the older *I* get, the
wider the definition of "not old" gets.  I say it that way because I
can't believe how *young* so much of the world around me is. ;)

I think there has definitely been a lessening of guilt associated with
copying works, directly associated with the ease of technology
involved.  If it's so easy it can't be wrong?

JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18558
From: David Wright" <dwrigsr@alltel.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:36:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"John Paul Vrolyk" <jp@vrolyk.org> wrote in message
news:3A8EDD9E.9FFEFD1E@vrolyk.org...
> David Wright wrote:

(snip)

>
> Don't you think it's rather arrogant to suggest that *you* know
> better than I of what I do or do not have personal knowledge?
>
> In the original email I received, no particular URL was
> discussed at all.  I don't even really know who controls
> that web server, let alone what if any arrangements they
> may or may not have had in times past with the copyright
> holder, nor even whether their posting might fall under
> "fair use".  So, yes, I merely suspect that they have never
> had any permission to post it, and that it's more than would
> be allowed by fair use.

Yes, you are right here. I made an unwarranted assumption based on what you
originally said and comments made later. I apologize for that.

(snip)

> > ...the direct link indicates some degree of
> > encouragement *on your part* for a reader to go there. So I am not
> > suggesting that you claim responsibility for someone else's actions,
just
> > your own.
>
> I claim full responsibility to having various addresses
> mentioned in my web page.
>
> I deny any responsibility for what's at those addresses which
> are not part of my web site, and also deny any responsibility
> for the actions of those, who, upon reading my webpage,
> decide of their own free will to look up, connect to, and
> request documents therefrom.  Those are solely their own
> actions, regardless of whether you or *I* [emphasis added] or they think I
was
> encouraging them.
>

Again, true. I repeat: I am not talking about what others might or might not
do or what their responsibilities are. I am talking about you.

I get a faint glimmering from the above that you do, indeed, accept some
responsibility for encouraging others. But if I am again making an
unwarranted assumption and that is not true,  do I understand that you went
to some degree of effort, putting up a web page,(the source code appears to
be hand done), , outlining who you are, showing your interests, specifically
with reference to the works of Heinlein, and can honestly say that you are
not encouraging others to check out who you are and what your interests are?

If true, then it seems to me that you have a very strange definition of the
word with respect to 'not encouraging'.

That's all I'm going to say on the subject.

David Wright




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18559
From: David Wright" <dwrigsr@alltel.net>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 20:44:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3A8F49E9.4F73778@ix.netcom.com...
>
>
> "Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:
>
> > ...I wonder if
> > we have some evidence for the hypothesis that oldsters take copyright
> > violations more seriously that youngsters?
>
> I'll have to think a while before posting on the basic issue. In the
> meantime, as a 40 year old, I can't help wondering which category I'm in?
>
> -JovBill
>

I think that your category depends strictly on who is making the
categorization, From my 61 year-old perspective, you are a 'young
whippersnapper' :), but from the perspective of a 23 year-old (a mere
child), you would be an 'old codger' and I would 'ancient'.

People at the extremes, *know* what category they are in :)

No great insight there, at least not to someone who is 'old'.

David Wright

The logs for the Thursday 2-15-2001 and Saturday 2-17-2001 Heinlein
Readers Group discussions are now available: The subject for the two
discussions was 'The Worlds Of Number of the Beast'

http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/TWO_AIM_02-15-2001.html

http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/TWO_AIM_02-17-2001.html

The next discussions will be on Thursday, 3-1-2001 at 9:00 P.M. EST and
Saturday 3-3-2001 at 5:00 P.M.

The topic will be 'Mysticism in Heinlein'.

Related Heinlein Web Pages

http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein.html

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

http://www.heinleinsociety.com/

Programmer/Analyst
N.W. District Health Office
Georgia State Dept.Of Public Health
100 W. Walnut Avenue, Suite 92
Dalton, GA 30720
Phone: 706-272-2342
Fax: 706-272-2221
E-Mail: dwrighsr@alltel.net
        dewright@gdph.state.ga.us
Web Page: http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18560
From: Madge Van Ness <madgevn@angelfire.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2001 21:56:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

 OK, gonna throw in my 2 cents worth: See Gutenberg project.

Now for the rest of the dollar.

If all software was being written solely by public-spirited young men
getting their kicks and their prestige by writing the neatest, slickest,
most useful code out there, then it could be free. But we all know that
freeware has its limits in terms of support, ease of use, and tendency to
bugginess. Hence, we prefer to pay (occasionally big) $$$ for commercial
software that has been thoroughly debugged, follows user interface
guidelines, and has a written manual (not to mention 4 color printed boxes
and some sort of disk we hold in our hands.) Fine. I think that's a fair
bargain.

Where I quarrel with the current copyright system is the length of the
copyright: life + 50 years. I have tastes in literature which may be rare.
The books go out of print, I find one of a series, but have great difficulty
finding the first (which had a small first printing, anyway.) So I go on a
search for it in the used bookstores and eventually find it. The author gets
no money from the second hand book. Under our system, the publisher paid him
his royalty/advance and it is released into the world, and as long as the
book is not copied in significant amounts, the author & publisher will
derive no additional income from its secondhand sales or library borrowing.
In the meantime, my friend covets reading the book, but I am reluctant to
let it go, given the time & money it has already cost me to acquire it. This
is 25 years after the copyright date: the author is dead or drinking pina
coladas in South Texas, the publisher has no interest in republishing the
book (it is "out of print"). Given that no one will be directly deprived of
income, why shouldn't the copyright expire? How many authors are discovered
and become hot again on a book published 25 years earlier that sank into
obscurity even as it was launched? Darn few!

The situation with software is even more frustrating. It has the same
copyright as any other piece of lit (I think.) But say this one program only
runs on an old platform; the publisher has discontinued all support, not to
mention burned all the unbought software. My friend has it  and I need a
copy so I can run it on my old platform. But legally, I am pirating if I
copy his copy. Possibly I can get a letter of permission from the publisher;
but they may be out of business or give giant yawns at the idea of taking
the trouble to do this.

It seems to me that the concept of "abandonment" is applicable here. If the
author or the publisher does not care enough to keep the literature or
software "in print" (i.e. available for sale on the first-hand (? after all
it is the second-hand market...) market) even in succeeding editions, then
after a period of 5? years, that software (or software  for "X" platform,
which is no longer sold)  or literature should be considered free of
copyright (okay, 20 years for books). Frankly, right now I am buying
"electronic copies" of Baen books works. Some of them I am very likely to
buy in hardback, even though I read them in the electronic version. Baen is
making money on me both ways. If keeping a book 'in print' includes keeping
it available in a downloadable form on the net, then I think everyone will
win. Net storage is getting cheaper all the time; it means people who
develop a taste for certain authors or series will be able to get their fix
easily; the rare book that "returns from the dead" could have had copyright
protected easily; the second hand book stores will still be able to sell
copies (people do like books versus palm readers or huge sheafs of
printouts).

MadgEdith

"Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:

> Notwithstanding the fact that the participants here are too erudite and
> sophisticated for their full and precise views to be encapsulated by any
> simple statement, and whereas I fully grant that I am extrapolating from
> a sample much too small to demonstrate any statistical significance, and
> furthermore recognize that I implicitly make an arbitrary and perhaps
> mistaken characterization of some of the participants in a recent
> discussion here into the categories of "youngster" and "oldster",
> nevertheless, after careful consideration of the foregoing, I wonder if
> we have some evidence for the hypothesis that oldsters take copyright
> violations more seriously that youngsters?*  I further hypothesize that
> this is due to an array of different attitudes that have been sparked
> among the youngsters vis-a-vis the oldsters by an early exposure to
> digital technology and its concomitant ability to make highy inexpensive,
> yet perfect, copies.
>
> Indeed, I urge upon us a discussion of this latter hypothesis, even if
> the purported evidence for the former is completely and firmly rejected,
> and done so even by those characterized as "youngsters".
>
> In short, folks, copyright and our traditional attitudes toward it are in
> a hell of a lot of trouble, IMHO.
>
> *I was inspired by some of David's resent prose, and wanted to assert a
> claim for the longest sentence posted to this group.  ;-)
>
> --
> Gordon Sollars
> gsollars@pobox.com


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18561
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:53:36 GMT
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 17 Feb 2001 23:28:37 -0800, "David M. Silver"
<agplusone@loop.com> wrote:

>Don't know about you, old fellow, but I'm still about twenty-three in my
>mind, that same handsome young fellow with the lovely new wife who was
>just RFAD and enrolled on the newly-passed GI Bill at UCLA.
>
For myself this mostly depends on the moment, sometimes very old,
sometimes not. It's been that way for as long as I remember.(which is
getting shorter all the time<bg>)

>Of course, I find myself much less annoyed at persons who spell my last
>name "Sliver," or "Silvers," even if I suspect it's deliberate or mutter
>"Hi-Yo!" when they see me--d'ya 'spose that's a sign of the outset of
>senility?
>
Having had little tolerence for people's stupidities to begin with, I
find that I have less & less all the time, at this point.

Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18562
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:55:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:13:34 -0500, Gordon G. Sollars
<gsollars@pobox.com> wrote:

>Great Googlie-Mooglie!  I'm older than Fader!

Why are you so suprised??

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18563
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:03:36 GMT
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 00:58:36 GMT, JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT) wrote:

>On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 07:07:54 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:
>>BTW, just for curiousity's sake, I'm staring 46 in the face, am I a
>>oldster or youngster?? (don't even think about it JT<g>) 
>>
>Don't worry this time, Fader.  I'm finding the older *I* get, the
>wider the definition of "not old" gets.  I say it that way because I
>can't believe how *young* so much of the world around me is. ;)

Amazing what fatherhood will do to a guy.<bg>

>I think there has definitely been a lessening of guilt associated with
>copying works, directly associated with the ease of technology
>involved.  If it's so easy it can't be wrong?
>
Well usually it is, I think it's almost axiomatic.

Fader
>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18564
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:39:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a90ed4f.1785685@news.sff.net>, Fader writes...
> On Sun, 18 Feb 2001 09:13:34 -0500, Gordon G. Sollars
> <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> >Great Googlie-Mooglie!  I'm older than Fader!
> 
> Why are you so suprised??

You had seemed to present an "oldster" image.  Now I realize I was just 
looking in a mirror!! 

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18565
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 10:30:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3A908B7A.2D2F167E@angelfire.com>, Madge Van Ness writes...
>  OK, gonna throw in my 2 cents worth: See Gutenberg project.
> 
> Now for the rest of the dollar.
> 
> If all software was being written solely by public-spirited young men
> getting their kicks and their prestige by writing the neatest, slickest,
> most useful code out there, then it could be free. But we all know that
> freeware has its limits in terms of support, ease of use, and tendency to
> bugginess.

Off the main point, but is there really any evidence that "open source" 
software is /more buggy/ than commercially developed software?

> Hence, we prefer to pay (occasionally big) $$$ for commercial
> software that has been thoroughly debugged,

Ahem.
....
> Where I quarrel with the current copyright system is the length of the
> copyright: life + 50 years.

For most commercial software it is the rule for corporations that would 
apply.  Didn't Disney recently help get 100 years for corporations in 
order to keep Mickey bringing home the bacon?  100 years is a /long/ run 
for a software package!  ;-) 
....
> The situation with software is even more frustrating. It has the same
> copyright as any other piece of lit (I think.) But say this one program only
> runs on an old platform; the publisher has discontinued all support, not to
> mention burned all the unbought software. My friend has it  and I need a
> copy so I can run it on my old platform. But legally, I am pirating if I
> copy his copy. Possibly I can get a letter of permission from the publisher;
> but they may be out of business or give giant yawns at the idea of taking
> the trouble to do this.

If the company is out of business, I'm not sure who would assert a claim 
against you.  Of course, you might not /know/ a given company has gone 
under, and when you look for it and can't find it, it might merely have 
been acquired.  But are you concerned about software you use personally 
or on behalf of a company that you work for?  Copying from your friend 
for your own use is extremely unlikely to land you in court; copying in 
order to outfit 1000 workstations at you company could be another matter.

For one-off copying of software, the real issue is not, I think, legal, 
but moral.  And I think that you have given a case in which the moral 
argument in favor of copying is quite strong.  Copyright law is a 
creature of the state, existing to "promote Science and useful Arts", and 
in the case you give, I don't see how copying is hindering that.
 
-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18566
From: Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:22:27 -0800
Subject: Re: Aw, jeez -- part II
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Almost 4%!   Isn't that better than Nader did?

Good job Clay.

--
`rita
Almost live in Finley, WA
JT wrote in message <3a8c91c7.789434046@news.sff.net>...
|On Mon, 09 Oct 2000 00:16:58 -0600, "Clay Steiner"
|<claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net> wrote:
|
|>It's almost an "aw jeez" part III... I wrote this and thought I posted
|>it back in early August. But I just found it in my "drafts" folder
|>under my ng ID tonight -- which ID I haven't opened but twice since I
|>dunno when. Sheesh.
|>
|>YES, folks, vote for me -- I'm less disorganized than my opponents!
|><weak grin>
|
|Just wanted to congratulate Clay on getting 627 votes in his race...
|3.98% without really campaigning.
|
|(Totals just released recently, and I saw them today....)
|
|JT
|



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18567
From: Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:01:51 -0800
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I got it.
HP Pavillion, XT856, 933htz, 128 SDRAM, 40 Gb Hard Drive, CD-DVD ROM, and
CDRW.  There's a whole bunch of other stuff too like an ethernet card and
the standard 56.6 modem.

I got the HP MX70 17" monitor also.  The printer is an Epson stylus color
777.

I love Costco!!!!!  I got all this for what Circut City and Best Buy wanted
just for an HP 7850.  You don't want to know what prices were other places.

Now I just need to get it out of my living room and in here.  I did get
Tom's latest version of Goodsol downloaded and running no problem.  Making
Prodigy talk to the new the computer is an ongoing adventure.  It could be
Prodigy, WinMe, IE5, Verizon, or me that causes the connection to drop
unexpectedly.

I'll decide which files I need off this thing later this week.  Any advice
as to the easiest way to move them?  I was thinking WinZip and floppies.
(Only because the thought of cracking this case gives me nightmares.)

--
`rita
Almost live in Finley, WA



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18568
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:47:39 -0500
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

`rita:    It sounds like you got a great deal.  That is surely a lot
of machine (is that 933 MHz an Intel ? ), was it a budget buster?
And a 17" monitor - that ought to be easier on your eyes. A  DVD -
does this mean you will be renting movies and watching Bruce Willis
in  'Fifth Element' on your PC?  ;-)    
>
>I'll decide which files I need off this thing later this week.  Any advice
>as to the easiest way to move them?  I was thinking WinZip and floppies.  
  I wonder if there is some form of shareware that will allow your
two machines to talk to each other via their modems.  
This way you might be able to use a phone cable and not some
parallel to parallel system.  
You can do a lot with WinZip and floppies (allowing WinZip to span
floppies for the larger files).  
  If your ISP allows you a few MBs of storage space, you could
upload to an FTP location and then download into your new PC.
  My previous ISPs provided up to 5 MB free and I never used the
space.  This cable modem service has 10 MB for "free" but the
monthly service is quite costly.

Ed J

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:01:51 -0800, "Lorrita Morgan"
<lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:

>I got it.
>HP Pavillion, XT856, 933htz, 128 SDRAM, 40 Gb Hard Drive, CD-DVD ROM, and
>CDRW.  There's a whole bunch of other stuff too like an ethernet card and
>the standard 56.6 modem.
>
>I got the HP MX70 17" monitor also.  The printer is an Epson stylus color
>777.
>
>I love Costco!!!!!  I got all this for what Circut City and Best Buy wanted
>just for an HP 7850.  You don't want to know what prices were other places.
>
>Now I just need to get it out of my living room and in here.  I did get
>Tom's latest version of Goodsol downloaded and running no problem.  Making
>Prodigy talk to the new the computer is an ongoing adventure.  It could be
>Prodigy, WinMe, IE5, Verizon, or me that causes the connection to drop
>unexpectedly.
>
>I'll decide which files I need off this thing later this week.  Any advice
>as to the easiest way to move them?  I was thinking WinZip and floppies.
>(Only because the thought of cracking this case gives me nightmares.)


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18569
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:39:29 -0800
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3a91521b.0@news.sff.net...
<snip>

> I'll decide which files I need off this thing later this week.  Any advice
> as to the easiest way to move them?  I was thinking WinZip and floppies.
> (Only because the thought of cracking this case gives me nightmares.)

There are a few possibilities.

1. Direct Cable Connection. You can connect the two machines via a Laplink
parallel port cable, or even a "null modem" cable. Not recommended, as
Direct Cable Connection is really difficult to get to work right.

2. Borrow an external Zip drive. This can be easily attached to one machine
to store information, and then to the other to transfer the information. A
Jazz drive can also be used. If you can find someone with an external CD-RW
drive, that might even be better, as you can store more and keep the CDs for
later.

3. www.whalemail.com. Sign up. Store up to 75 MB of files for up to 14 days.
It is designed to allow you to readily email a link to any file to other
people, so they can get a copy readily.

4. Online storage of various sorts. www.xdrive.com, www.freespace.com, or
www.myspace.com will all work. They won't store as many files as Whalemail,
for the most part, but they will store the files indefinitely. Myspace will
store about 300 MB, in theory, but I have found it difficult to send and
receive large numbers of files, or exceptionally long files.

5. An FTP space online. If you like, I could set up an FTP server on my box
at home, and you'd just have to let me know when you wanted it available. I
have quite a bit of space that I can let you borrow temporarily.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18570
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:28:46 -0800
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

<snip>
> > *I was inspired by some of David's resent prose, and wanted to assert a
> > claim for the longest sentence posted to this group.  ;-1)

"David's_resent_ prose"? He didn't seem that upset.:)

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18571
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:46:51 -0800
Subject: Re: Ginnie Heinlein, napster, etc
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Jai Johnson-Pickett" <hf_jai@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3a8ff660.112349104@news.sff.net...
<snip>
>
> But really, is there any evidence that money sales of literature or
> music have declined with the advent of electronic media?

The evidence I have, limited, argues the opposite. More on this below.

>  Is there
> anyone here who would decide not to buy a Heinlein book simply because
> the text might be available on the internet?

Not today. But what about a few years from now, when a "book" might be a
piece of plastic the size of an open book, that is as easy or easier to read
than a real book?

>  Does anybody remember
> the days when you could go into a music store and listen to any record
> you wanted in a back-room designed just for free listening?  Does
> anybody remember records? <g>

Yes, on both counts. I didn't even own my own CD player until Christmas,
though I could listen on my computer when I wanted to.

> Myself, I am fairly active on-line, but I still buy a lot of books.  I
> don't buy many CDs, but then, I think I've only downloaded one musical
> piece in my life, and only because of special "holiday" circumstances
> -- it was Adam Sandler's "Hannukah Song" and I doubt I would have ever
> bought one of his albums just to get that one cut.

Which is part of the problem, and maybe the solution. Suppose you had a
choice between downloading that song for free "illegally" (the legality
having not been settled, yet), or paying a dollar?

> But there is a valid argument, I think, that internet availability is
> good (and free) advertising--something producers & pubishers have been
> known to pay alot of money for, even if the artists themselves don't
> (altho, ultimately, the money comes from the artists).  As someone
> said, "there's no such thing as bad publicity."

Here's the comment I promised. Unfortunately, my comments disagree with each
other.:)

Personally, I have used Napster. I can state one thing with absolute
certainty; because of this, the music industry is making money. I personally
have doubled my personal CD and tape collection since I first used Napster
in November, and would bet I will do so again within the next six months.
There are a number of artists who I would not be even thinking about if it
wasn't for Napster. I intend to get at least one of Tom Lerher's albums, for
example, and I barely realized that he existed before Napster.

All this aside, however, there is the question of the morality of it. Sure,
I could argue that it is in a particular artists interest to allow his stuff
on Napster, but who am I to decide that this is the case for him? It isn't
my place to do so, even if I believed he was being pig-headed and stupid.
Besides, he might be right. If only one song on a CD is considered good, how
many people would pay $15 for it when they can get that one song, slightly
distorted, for free?

The second problem is the technology. At this time, finding and downloading
music on Napster is a pain. The quality often sucks, many MP3s are missing
the last few seconds, often downloads fail, many things can be hard to
locate or separate from thousands of other songs that have some similar
words in their titles.

All of this, however, means little. The technology is getting better by the
day. It would be simple to write a new Napster client that stripped a CD and
posted the entire contents, along with information allowing users to search
for the album and find the entire thing online. Broadband lines are becoming
more and more common. I can, on my home system, download a MB in as little
as 8 seconds, which could allow downloading an entire typical song from a CD
_without_ compression in under 5 minutes. MP3 music compression is already
good enough that careful listening is needed to tell the difference between
a CD and a well-done MP3 from the same CD. Sonic Foundry claims that their
new audio codec can achieve a perfect digital reproduction of an original
music file with compression of 1 to 2 or, on some files, 1 to 5 compression
rates.

As a result, thus far the only music I will share on Napster is the works of
Tom Smith, since I take his song "I Want to Be On Napster" as explicit
permission. While I haven't yet checked with her, I suspect Leslie Fish
would have the same attitude.

> I do admit to using the internet to research info that I would once
> have had to buy a book, gone to the library (which is another
> point--always had free, if less convenient, access to copyrighted
> stuff) or done without.  But I suppose if I were taking a school
> course that required reading something I could find on the web, for
> example one of Shakespere's works, I might not buy the text.  Or I
> might--I like to be able to underline and annotate school books.  Yes,
> I know copyrights are usually expired on classic works, but I could
> foresee someone putting, say, a statistics manual on line so students
> wouldn't have to buy it.  Textbooks are a bit of a racket for the
> college professors who write them, but that's beside the point.

They are already in a poor paying job for someone who spent many years in
preperation. Maybe they deserve their 'racket'.

> Perhaps I'm being shortsighted in where all this is going.  Or where
> it could go.  Or maybe where it will go (so that the "industries"
> involved had better learn to deal with it or go out of business--is
> that Darwinian enough for this crowd?<g>).  In any case, I could
> easily see myself arguing the other side.  But for this post, I just
> wonder if the whole napster and related battles aren't kind of silly.

It will go, but no one knows where, exactly. Stopping it is probably
impossible. Even now, Napster could be run from a number of "offshore data
havens", untouchable by the current legal battles. Such untouchable servers
would be subject to future legislation, but someone could create yet another
one as more countries become seriously linked up. Current attempts to create
"serverless" MP3 sharing have run into snags, but they will be solved,
making defense against such file sharing effectively impossible.

What does all this mean? Hard to say. Here are some thoughts.

Are the main companies in the music industry truly corrupt and unethical?
There are some good arguments that this is so. Does that make it alright to
copy the works they control and distribute them? What about the performers
or composers?

Suppose you could create a free file-sharing system that would allow you to
easily obtain all the music you want, no matter who owned the copyright. You
were unstoppable in this. However, you included a method of allowing people
who liked the music to send in "tips" to the performers.

Is it fair to make them work for tips? Assuming not, what if they made
_more_ money that way? Would that make it ethical?

Suppose Napster does make more money for the creators of CDs. Does that make
it ethical? What if it only makes more money for some people, but less for
others? Consider a comedian. A poor copy of Bill Cosby's "Noah" is just as
funny as a good copy, so long as it is understandable and complete. Would
people be less likely to buy his CD than the CD of a musical performer? What
about performers who produce only one good song, but make you buy a CD to
get it. Does this help or hurt them? Should it matter? How many songs should
I ethically have from a particular CD before I pay for it?

What about works you cannot get today, except second hand? Most of what I
look up on Napster I _can't_ buy, anywhere, so far as I know, for any amount
of money. It it ethical for me to obtain a copy of Tom Payne's "Please, Mr.
Compatibility" online for free, when I can't possibly get it for money? What
about the entire contents of the album "Solar Sailors"?

These questions and others have prevented me from sharing files with
Napster, but thus far haven't stopped me from downloading files. Is the
crime greater in providing them, if there is a crime? Is there a crime, and
if not, does that make it ethical? Does my spending more money on music now
than ever before in my life because of Napster change it from unethical to
ethical?

Good luck with these questions. I mean it.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18572
From: Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:14:17 -0800
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Yes Ed it's Intel.  I'm not quite ready to drop kick it,  The learning curve
is a bit steeper than I expected.

My patron gave me an extra $500 when we looked at machines and prices.

I may see about uploading things to Xdrive and then d/l once I going.


--
Later,
`rita
"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com> wrote in message
news:9p739tk46ihkvioolq4ap8pdsgqhlc39ng@4ax.com...
> `rita:    It sounds like you got a great deal.  That is surely a lot
> of machine (is that 933 MHz an Intel ? ), was it a budget buster?
> And a 17" monitor - that ought to be easier on your eyes. A  DVD -
> does this mean you will be renting movies and watching Bruce Willis
> in  'Fifth Element' on your PC?  ;-)
> >
> >I'll decide which files I need off this thing later this week.  Any
advice
> >as to the easiest way to move them?  I was thinking WinZip and floppies.
>   I wonder if there is some form of shareware that will allow your
> two machines to talk to each other via their modems.
> This way you might be able to use a phone cable and not some
> parallel to parallel system.
> You can do a lot with WinZip and floppies (allowing WinZip to span
> floppies for the larger files).
>   If your ISP allows you a few MBs of storage space, you could
> upload to an FTP location and then download into your new PC.
>   My previous ISPs provided up to 5 MB free and I never used the
> space.  This cable modem service has 10 MB for "free" but the
> monthly service is quite costly.
>
> Ed J
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18573
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:20:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a91d648.0@news.sff.net>, Filksinger writes...
> <snip>
> > > *I was inspired by some of David's resent prose, and wanted to assert a
> > > claim for the longest sentence posted to this group.  ;-1)
> 
> "David's_resent_ prose"? He didn't seem that upset.:)

You should see what I type /before/ the spell checker "fixes" it!!

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18574
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:11:56 GMT
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 09:39:58 -0500, Gordon G. Sollars
<gsollars@pobox.com> wrote:
 
>> Why are you so suprised??
>
>You had seemed to present an "oldster" image.  Now I realize I was just 
>looking in a mirror!! 
>
Someone once said that, I was traditional without being conservative,
it's a description that I've always liked.

Fader 

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18575
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:46:21 -0800
Subject: Hologram Projection
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


Here's a link to an article on Ananova, at www.ananova.com, an online pop
sci mag. It refers to a new technique developed recently that allows a
computer screen to appear to be projecting a holographic image in front of
it. Undoubtedly, you have to be looking directly into the screen for it to
work, but it certainly has possibilities.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_143833.html?menu=news.scienceanddiscove
ry.amazingscience

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18576
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 14:28:49 -0800
Subject: Future Shock?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I think I may have future shock. I never thought it was possible, but there
it is.

Concrete that phones you when it sets:
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_201189.html?menu=news.scienceanddiscove
ry.inventions

Smart pantyliners:
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_208214.html?menu=news.scienceanddiscove
ry.inventions

Scientists say moving the Earth is simple:
http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_197665.html?menu=news.scienceanddiscove
ry.amazingscience

Using pig organs for human transplants:
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/features/top_10/organs.html

I never thought I'd see the day I'd get future shock. Ugh.

Filksinger






------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18577
From: Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:55:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"John Paul Vrolyk" <jp@vrolyk.org> wrote in message
news:3A8C5ACE.79210830@vrolyk.org...
> Yesterday I received a strange email.

Thus started the sdh-f flamewar of the year.

I am more and more amazed by the maturity and grace of all of the
participants here.  Had I been one of the participants, I hope I would have
been able to conduct myself as well as you have done.  It wasn't fun, but it
was important.

Frank Fujita



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18578
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:18:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Future Shock?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

FS:   I'm still somewhat in the 'when will we be able to: . . . "
frame of mind.  Household robots (TDIS),  Smart TVs,(SIASL)  Smart
view phones.   Smart means that you needn't be a programmer to get
something to work for you.  Telephones may be catching up with the
old Dick Tracy;  but many of Heinlein's future gadgets are not here
yet, IMHO.

Ed J
If two people have broadband ISP, I guess that for less than $100
each user could set up their own 'View Phones'.   Small camera
mounted on the monitor and I'm not sure what software to install.
Any suggestions?

>
>I never thought I'd see the day I'd get future shock. Ugh.
>
>Filksinger
>
>
>
>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18579
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 02:18:43 GMT
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

May I ask what's the matter with simply copying straight off the old
hard drive?
>(Only because the thought of cracking this case gives me nightmares.)

Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18580
Article no longer available
------------------------------------------------------------

Article 18581
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:22:25 -0800
Subject: Re: Future Shock?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com> wrote in message
news:ku169t8din2k3npkcn32hkaafpnju3j6rr@4ax.com...
> FS:   I'm still somewhat in the 'when will we be able to: . . . "
> frame of mind.  Household robots (TDIS),  Smart TVs,(SIASL)  Smart
> view phones.   Smart means that you needn't be a programmer to get
> something to work for you.  Telephones may be catching up with the
> old Dick Tracy;  but many of Heinlein's future gadgets are not here
> yet, IMHO.

Don't get me wrong. For the most part, I am still in that stage, too.
However, some ideas just surprise me. The smart pantyliners make perfect
sense (though they give me some misgivings), but I never thought of them,
read about them, or heard anyone suggest anything of the sort. New
inventions that are utterly unprecidented in my mind, even as
out-of-this-world SF, are rare for me.

The misgiving I have is that it always bothers me when new ideas come out
that can damage privacy. It doesn't matter if the privacy is something I
think can validly be violated, it still disturbs me. Pantyliners that can
tell you when your teenage daughter is pregnant makes me uncomfortable.

Filksinger





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18582
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:24:02 -0800
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Bob Lawson" <bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com> wrote in message
news:3a932550.3169740@news.sff.net...
> May I ask what's the matter with simply copying straight off the old
> hard drive?

Uh, because that requires cracking the case of both machines?

Rita, your old machine doesn't have a NIC card, does it? I forgot to ask.

Filksinger





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18583
From: Madge Van Ness <madgevn@angelfire.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:25:41 -0500
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

well, I can think of a few programs with simple bugs. Or more accurately, simple
programs with a few bugs. But most free ware is not the full complex program that
we get with commercial software (after all, footnotes placed automatically are
the main reason I insist on MS Word vs Simple Text or NotePad or Appleworks.)

I must also admit that bugs do occur in the commercial packages, but there are
also usually updates  and fixes (i.e. support.)

As for the Mickey issue: Disney has not "abandoned" the Mouse.

I will also admit to some qualms to the idea that the descendents (if any) or
heirs of F. Scott Fitzgerald or A.C.Doyle should be living on great or great
great grandpas creation. This may be due to my occasional desire or even effort
to write fanfic (not for either of these two cited examples; I don't have the
chutzpah to mess with the Canon and didn't much like Fitzgerald); but I don't
particularly squawk about Rockefellers or Kennedy's trading on the family trust
fund/foundation/name and I suppose that a literary legacy is as valid as a family
farm.

MadgEdith

"Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:

>
>
> Off the main point, but is there really any evidence that "open source"
> software is /more buggy/ than commercially developed software?
>
> > Hence, we prefer to pay (occasionally big) $$$ for commercial
> > software that has been thoroughly debugged,
>
> Ahem.
> ...
> > Where I quarrel with the current copyright system is the length of the
> > copyright: life + 50 years.
>
> For most commercial software it is the rule for corporations that would
> apply.  Didn't Disney recently help get 100 years for corporations in
> order to keep Mickey bringing home the bacon?  100 years is a /long/ run
> for a software package!  ;-)
> ...
> > The situation with software is even more frustrating. It has the same
> > copyright as any other piece of lit (I think.) But say this one program only
> > runs on an old platform; the publisher has discontinued all support, not to
> > mention burned all the unbought software. My friend has it  and I need a
> > copy so I can run it on my old platform. But legally, I am pirating if I
> > copy his copy. Possibly I can get a letter of permission from the publisher;
> > but they may be out of business or give giant yawns at the idea of taking
> > the trouble to do this.
>
> If the company is out of business, I'm not sure who would assert a claim
> against you.  Of course, you might not /know/ a given company has gone
> under, and when you look for it and can't find it, it might merely have
> been acquired.  But are you concerned about software you use personally
> or on behalf of a company that you work for?  Copying from your friend
> for your own use is extremely unlikely to land you in court; copying in
> order to outfit 1000 workstations at you company could be another matter.
>
> For one-off copying of software, the real issue is not, I think, legal,
> but moral.  And I think that you have given a case in which the moral
> argument in favor of copying is quite strong.  Copyright law is a
> creature of the state, existing to "promote Science and useful Arts", and
> in the case you give, I don't see how copying is hindering that.
>
> --
> Gordon Sollars
> gsollars@pobox.com


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18584
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:12:44 GMT
Subject: Alfred Bester
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This author came up a couple/three months ago, thought I'd let you
know what I found in Borders the other day.

Reprint of "The Deceivers","redemolished" a collection of shorts,
essays, & some interviews, including a prologue for The Demolished
Man, that was cut from the original & "Psychoshop" which was finished
by Zelazny after Bester's death.

I'm one happy camper, always loved Bester's stuff & this should keep
me busy for awhile.

They're by ibooks in small trade paperbacks, & I believe I saw "the
Computer Conection" & The Demolished Man as well.(got those already)
Here's your chance to fill those holes in your collections.

Fader 

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18585
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 13:07:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3A933533.E3E7F474@angelfire.com>, Madge Van Ness writes...
....
> As for the Mickey issue: Disney has not "abandoned" the Mouse.

Sorry, I was not clear.  Indeed Mickey has not been abandoned.  I brought 
him in because even though not abandoned, Disney's rights would have 
expired under the old (1976, I think) rules.  Now, extending the limit 
for a corporation to 100 years (I think) might indeed serve to "promote 
Science and useful Arts" better than a 50-year rule did.  But Mickey was 
already with us.  If the old rules were good enough when he was created, 
why aren't they still good enough for him?

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18586
From: Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:14:26 -0800
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

What's an NIC card? that probably answers your question.  My old PoJ is a
Packard Bell 3X3 desktop any more questions?

My current frustration loop involves Outlook Express 5.x freezing either at
startup or as soon as I tell it to "fetch."  The troubleshooter tells me to
use WinMe's search for files and folders to look for solutions to the
problem; but for some reason my search won't work when looking for files or
folders.  Search finds people and computers no problem.  Enter a file name
and click on the search button and NOTHING!

<begin rant>My mind must not work like the way the designers of the support
sites set things up.  I hate Jeeves.  I've been bounced from site to site to
site and found no help.  Tech Support with a live person is long distance
and thanks to a certain daughter Verizon won't let me have long distance
service until I pay them a month's gross income. (It was 3 months'  gross
when she moved out.)<rant over>

I did get the audio on the CD-DVD drive fixed.

Meanwhile, this PoJ ain't going anywhere.  I need to read my mail and this
group.

--
`rita
Almost live in Finley, WA
Filksinger wrote in message <3a9326a5.0@news.sff.net>...
|"Bob Lawson" <bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com> wrote in message
|news:3a932550.3169740@news.sff.net...
|> May I ask what's the matter with simply copying straight off the old
|> hard drive?
|
|Uh, because that requires cracking the case of both machines?
|
|Rita, your old machine doesn't have a NIC card, does it? I forgot to ask.
|
|Filksinger
|
|
|
|



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18587
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:25:51 -0800
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Madge Van Ness" <madgevn@angelfire.com> wrote in message
news:3A933533.E3E7F474@angelfire.com...
<snip>
> I will also admit to some qualms to the idea that the descendents (if any)
or
> heirs of F. Scott Fitzgerald or A.C.Doyle should be living on great or
great
> great grandpas creation. This may be due to my occasional desire or even
effort
> to write fanfic (not for either of these two cited examples; I don't have
the
> chutzpah to mess with the Canon and didn't much like Fitzgerald); but I
don't
> particularly squawk about Rockefellers or Kennedy's trading on the family
trust
> fund/foundation/name and I suppose that a literary legacy is as valid as a
family
> farm.

How about Shakespere? How would you like it if copyright was extended so far
back that some guy who was decended from Shakespere had to be payed money
everytime someone put a play on the web, printed some poems and sold them,
or did "Much Ado About Nothing" for a school project?

We allow patents for 17 years, but we allow copyright for a century? There
is something screwed up here.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18588
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 15:27:29 -0800
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3a94063b.0@news.sff.net...
> What's an NIC card? that probably answers your question.  My old PoJ is a
> Packard Bell 3X3 desktop any more questions?

Silly me. A network card (Network Interface Card, or NIC), that allows you
to connect to other computers by a network cable. Your new one has one. Did
the old one?

> My current frustration loop involves Outlook Express 5.x freezing either
at
> startup or as soon as I tell it to "fetch."  The troubleshooter tells me
to
> use WinMe's search for files and folders to look for solutions to the
> problem; but for some reason my search won't work when looking for files
or
> folders.  Search finds people and computers no problem.  Enter a file name
> and click on the search button and NOTHING!

What is it set to look in? I have noticed that in Win95, if you set "Look
in" in the Find box to "My Computer", the entire computer was searched, but
in Win98, it wasn't, at least some of the time. The same may apply to the
Search window in ME. Try setting it to look in C drive or "Local hard
drives".

> <begin rant>My mind must not work like the way the designers of the
support
> sites set things up.  I hate Jeeves.  I've been bounced from site to site
to
> site and found no help.  Tech Support with a live person is long distance
> and thanks to a certain daughter Verizon won't let me have long distance
> service until I pay them a month's gross income. (It was 3 months'  gross
> when she moved out.)<rant over>

Get a standard phone card, such as can be used with any pay phone. They dial
800 numbers that then connect you long distance. I can't dial long distance
myself at this time, but I can use those.

> I did get the audio on the CD-DVD drive fixed.

That's good.

> Meanwhile, this PoJ ain't going anywhere.  I need to read my mail and this
> group.

Setting up the new machine to read mail and news should be simple enough.
It's all the _old_ mail that is a problem.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18589
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:34:04 -0800
Subject: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

OK, here's the idea. I have created a method of taking energy out of the
ocean, or possibly smaller bodies of water. However, I can't determine if it
violates thermodynamics.

Suppose I have a long tube reaching down deep into the ocean. At the bottom,
I use electrodes to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen. The oxygen and
hydrogen rise through the tube. At the top, I burn the oxygen and hydrogen
to make electricity.

OK, so far, so good. Basic thermodynamics says I will always use more
electricity than I will get back. Fine. If I have a really good conversion
process, I might get back most of the energy I put in.

Now, I put a generator in the tube, which uses the rising bubbles to
generate electricity.

Will I definitely get less electricity than I put in? If so, can you prove
it? If not, where does the extra energy come from?

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18590
From: SynABit@kc.invalid (Dennis Doms)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 02:19:24 GMT
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a946c92.0@news.sff.net>, "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
wrote:

>OK, here's the idea. I have created a method of taking energy out of the
>ocean, or possibly smaller bodies of water. However, I can't determine if it
>violates thermodynamics.
>
>Suppose I have a long tube reaching down deep into the ocean. At the bottom,
>I use electrodes to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen. The oxygen and
>hydrogen rise through the tube. At the top, I burn the oxygen and hydrogen
>to make electricity.
>
>OK, so far, so good. Basic thermodynamics says I will always use more
>electricity than I will get back. Fine. If I have a really good conversion
>process, I might get back most of the energy I put in.
>
>Now, I put a generator in the tube, which uses the rising bubbles to
>generate electricity.
>
>Will I definitely get less electricity than I put in?

Intuitively, I would say "yes".  But it's been 20+ years since I've had to do
any rigorous proofs like that.

>If so, can you prove
>it?

Maybe, sticking with intuition. I'm assuming from your comments that you do
believe that electrolysis under "normal" circumstances would require more
energy than you would get from burning the resulting products.

Here's the problem in what you propose: you're moving the reaction to a depth
where it is much _less_ efficient. Why? Because there is now increased
pressure, and that will push the equilibrium of the reaction in favor of the
water staying water rather than dissociating into the component gases. To
overcome that force, you will need to introduce more electrical force. So now
you've lost ground. (That is, the ratio is less favorable at a depth than at
the surface.)

Again working intuitively, any "force" exerted by the rising gas bubbles would
be very small, and we can anticipate the additional force to create the
bubbles against the pressure of depth exceding it. The work product released
by the bubbles ascending would at least equal the force required to push a
bubble to the originating depth. I would anticipate this being exceeded by the
force needed to create those bubbles at that depth. Why? Well, as an example,
take a 4-5 foot tube and try to breathe through it like a snorkel underwater.
You can't, because even that small pressure differential keeps your diaphragm
muscles from being able to expand your lungs. If you can't pull air down an
open tube, I don't see "pushing" a hole in the water as being easier. (Work is
work, whether it is measured as electricity or muscle power.)

Also, of course, we don't expect the work transfer to be 100% efficient.

(There are  means of calculating all this much more quantitatively, but I'm
not convinced I want to spend my evening doing it. Can I leave it as an
exercise? :)

>If not, where does the extra energy come from?

I think the first two answers cover this. (There is no extra energy.)

>Filksinger
>
>

 --
Dennis Doms  SynABit@kc.invalid  http://home.earthlink.net/~chemsleuth
[replace "invalid" with "rr.com" for valid mail]

  "It doesn't matter if we turn to dust; turn and turn and turn we must
         I guess I'll see you, dancing in the ruins tonight..."
	                 -- Blue Oyster Cult

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18591
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:40:53 -0800
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Dennis Doms" <SynABit@kc.invalid> wrote in message
news:3a9471ea.7320964@news.sff.net...
> In article <3a946c92.0@news.sff.net>, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net>
> wrote:
<snip>

> >If so, can you prove
> >it?
>
> Maybe, sticking with intuition. I'm assuming from your comments that you
do
> believe that electrolysis under "normal" circumstances would require more
> energy than you would get from burning the resulting products.

Correct. That is basic thermodynamics.

> Here's the problem in what you propose: you're moving the reaction to a
depth
> where it is much _less_ efficient. Why? Because there is now increased
> pressure, and that will push the equilibrium of the reaction in favor of
the
> water staying water rather than dissociating into the component gases. To
> overcome that force, you will need to introduce more electrical force. So
now
> you've lost ground. (That is, the ratio is less favorable at a depth than
at
> the surface.)

So, suppose my tube is only 30 inches? The efficency of electrolosys is
certainly not _that_ sensitive. If it was, every book that told you how to
do electrolosys would have to warn you about the difficulties involved with
the tiny change in pressure. Will the pressure overcome the lift of the
bubbles when it is that small?

Also, you might remember that the increased pressure at depth makes the
bubbles rise more forcefully, allowing me to extract more energy. I could
create a dozen generators, or a hundred, each taking a small piece of that
energy of the rising bubbles.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18592
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:51:19 GMT
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:55:07 -0500, "Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
wrote:

>Thus started the sdh-f flamewar of the year.
>
>I am more and more amazed by the maturity and grace of all of the
>participants here.  Had I been one of the participants, I hope I would have
>been able to conduct myself as well as you have done.  It wasn't fun, but it
>was important.
>
>Frank Fujita
>
The most fun I ever had  in an HF discussion, discounting the Pun
Wars, was over a religious topic, back on the old Prodigy-only "Arts
Club BB".  Had a guy come in claiming to be a Reverend and saying
silly things, and some people got really upset.  We ended up giving
him the silent treatment, and he went away eventually.

I wonder if BC or Tomstaafl still has copies of the "Tabnick" (his
name) thread?  I would get a kick out of reading them again....

We're too civil here these days to get really nasty. ;)

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18593
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:51:19 GMT
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:25:41 -0500, Madge Van Ness
<madgevn@angelfire.com> wrote:
> but I don't
>particularly squawk about Rockefellers or Kennedy's trading on the family trust
>fund/foundation/name and I suppose that a literary legacy is as valid as a family
>farm.
>MadgEdith

Except that a family farm still needs a lot of work put into it yearly
to bear harvest.  A work, once written, is usually done--"uncut"
restorations notwithstanding. ;)  

I agree that your original question posed a valid point--should
generations later be able to exclusively gain from the work of a
relative? 

I really don't know.  I hope the advent of digital storage means that
everything can stay "in print" and accessible to those that want
it--the nuances of copyright are probably beyond my limited attention
span. ;)

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18594
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:53:41 -0800
Subject: Bloodless Surgery
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

When I first saw this, I thought that it meant someone had found a way to do
surgery without the subject bleeding. Instead, they boost your red blood
cell count and recycle the blood that is being sucked away by the suction
machine.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_216452.html?menu=news.latestheadlines

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18595
From: Dean White" <WhiteD@telepath.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:21:59 -0600
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3a946c92.0@news.sff.net...
> OK, here's the idea. I have created a method of taking energy out of the
> ocean, or possibly smaller bodies of water. However, I can't determine
if it
> violates thermodynamics.
>
> Suppose I have a long tube reaching down deep into the ocean. At the
bottom,
> I use electrodes to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen. The oxygen and
> hydrogen rise through the tube. At the top, I burn the oxygen and
hydrogen
> to make electricity.
>
> OK, so far, so good. Basic thermodynamics says I will always use more
> electricity than I will get back. Fine. If I have a really good
conversion
> process, I might get back most of the energy I put in.
>
> Now, I put a generator in the tube, which uses the rising bubbles to
> generate electricity.
>
> Will I definitely get less electricity than I put in? If so, can you
prove
> it? If not, where does the extra energy come from?
>
> Filksinger
>
>

Not quite your idea, but for years there have been attempts to use the
temperature differential between the ocean depths and the surface.  The
major problem is with the salt water, it corrodes everything.

--
          Dean White
www.DeanWhite.net



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18596
From: SynABit@kc.invalid (Dennis Doms)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:32:10 GMT
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a947c3a.0@news.sff.net>, "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
wrote:

>So, suppose my tube is only 30 inches? The efficency of electrolosys is
>certainly not _that_ sensitive. If it was, every book that told you how to
>do electrolosys would have to warn you about the difficulties involved with
>the tiny change in pressure. Will the pressure overcome the lift of the
>bubbles when it is that small?

My practical answer to that would be, build it and see. :)

However, whatever the relationship is, it's proportional. Whatever the math at
3000 feet, it will be the same at 30 inches.

>Also, you might remember that the increased pressure at depth makes the
>bubbles rise more forcefully, allowing me to extract more energy. I could
>create a dozen generators, or a hundred, each taking a small piece of that
>energy of the rising bubbles.

Uh, think about where the bubble came from. In order to _create_ the bubble at
greater depth, you have to expend more energy.

I realize this is not quantitative, but for every factor you think is an
unbalanced gain, I see as having an opposite cost.

>Filksinger

 --
Dennis Doms  SynABit@kc.invalid  http://home.earthlink.net/~chemsleuth
[replace "invalid" with "rr.com" for valid mail]

  "It doesn't matter if we turn to dust; turn and turn and turn we must
         I guess I'll see you, dancing in the ruins tonight..."
	                 -- Blue Oyster Cult

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18597
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 15:33:57 -0800
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Dean White" <WhiteD@telepath.com> wrote in message
news:3a959f16.0@news.sff.net...
<snip>
>
> Not quite your idea, but for years there have been attempts to use the
> temperature differential between the ocean depths and the surface.  The
> major problem is with the salt water, it corrodes everything.

True. The only problem is, I _know_ what the power source is in that case.
In my example, I cannot determine where it fails, but I don't know the power
source, either. It may be that Dennis was correct, but I have my doubts, as
I expressed previously.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18598
From: SynABit@kc.invalid (Dennis Doms)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 23:35:52 GMT
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a959f16.0@news.sff.net>, "Dean White" <WhiteD@telepath.com>
wrote:

>Not quite your idea, but for years there have been attempts to use the
>temperature differential between the ocean depths and the surface.  The
>major problem is with the salt water, it corrodes everything.

There was also an SF story titled "Shortstack"  by Walt Richmond  and Leigh
Richmond (in Groff Conklin's anthology "Elsewhere and Elsewhen") that
described trying a similar trick in the atmosphere.

>--
>          Dean White
>www.DeanWhite.net
>
>

 --
Dennis Doms  SynABit@kc.invalid  http://home.earthlink.net/~chemsleuth
[replace "invalid" with "rr.com" for valid mail]

  "It doesn't matter if we turn to dust; turn and turn and turn we must
         I guess I'll see you, dancing in the ruins tonight..."
	                 -- Blue Oyster Cult

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18599
From: Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:05:11 -0800
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Filksinger wrote in message <3a944ee7.0@news.sff.net>...
|Silly me. A network card (Network Interface Card, or NIC), that allows you
|to connect to other computers by a network cable. Your new one has one. Did
|the old one?


Nope.

|Search finds people and computers no problem.  Enter a file name
|> and click on the search button and NOTHING!
|
|What is it set to look in?

Local hard drives.
I tried changing where Search looks but the only place I got any response
was when I set it to look in My Documents.
the first pop up said--
    ::\ is not accessible
    the path is invalid
(close)
the next pop up said-
    '{450D8FBA-AD25-11D0-0800361B1103}' is not a valid folder
(Close)

any other location gets no response at all.  It's like clicking a dead or
disconnected button.

|Get a standard phone card, such as can be used with any pay phone. They
dial
|800 numbers that then connect you long distance. I can't dial long distance
|myself at this time, but I can use those.


I plan on getting one next payday, March 1.

|Setting up the new machine to read mail and news should be simple enough.
|It's all the _old_ mail that is a problem.


IF I can get OE 5.5 to work it would be a breeze.

`rita
Almost live in Finley, WA



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18600
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:10:31 -0800
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Dennis Doms" <SynABit@kc.invalid> wrote in message
news:3a95a08b.1264663@news.sff.net...
> In article <3a947c3a.0@news.sff.net>, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net>
> wrote:
>
> >So, suppose my tube is only 30 inches? The efficency of electrolosys is
> >certainly not _that_ sensitive. If it was, every book that told you how
to
> >do electrolosys would have to warn you about the difficulties involved
with
> >the tiny change in pressure. Will the pressure overcome the lift of the
> >bubbles when it is that small?
>
> My practical answer to that would be, build it and see. :)

Yes, but this is a thought experiment. When Einstein and Bohr used thought
experiments, Einstein would create an experiment in his mind where the
Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle could be bypassed by a measurement, _in
theory_ and assuming perfect instruments, and Bohr would point out that the
measurement would be disturbed even with perfect equipment. It wasn't
necessary in most cases to do the experiment, it was only necessary to find
the point at which Einstein's theoretical measuring aparatus would be
corrupted by uncertainty.

> However, whatever the relationship is, it's proportional. Whatever the
math at
> 3000 feet, it will be the same at 30 inches.

But it shouldn't be. The energy to extract via electrolysis is governed by
the energy needed to separate the atoms and, by your theory, somehow also
overcome pressure. The energy gained by catching rising bubbles is directly
proportional to the difference between the density of the original liquid
and the density of the gaseous bubbles.

I can see no reason why the differences in density should have anything to
do with either the energy needed to separate the atoms or the energy needed
to overcome the pressure.

> >Also, you might remember that the increased pressure at depth makes the
> >bubbles rise more forcefully, allowing me to extract more energy. I could
> >create a dozen generators, or a hundred, each taking a small piece of
that
> >energy of the rising bubbles.
>
> Uh, think about where the bubble came from. In order to _create_ the
bubble at
> greater depth, you have to expend more energy.

1) This is a guess on your part, and I don't necessarily agree that it is
true. In fact, I am reasonably certain it is not.

2) Even if so, there is no reason why the two forces should be related, as
they are caused by very different factors that have no direct relationship.

> I realize this is not quantitative, but for every factor you think is an
> unbalanced gain, I see as having an opposite cost.

Oh, I understand that they might have an opposing cost. But I cannot see a
relationship between the energy needed to split a molecule, the pressure
under which the molecule is, and the volume of a gas released by
electrolysis as compared to the volume the liquid that was turned into gas.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18601
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:17:33 -0800
Subject: Lunar Tourism Already Exists?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_213538.html?menu=

If the link doesn't work, add the equals sign to the address in your
browser.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18602
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:18:54 -0800
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3a95b8a9.0@news.sff.net...
<snip>
> Local hard drives.
> I tried changing where Search looks but the only place I got any response
> was when I set it to look in My Documents.
> the first pop up said--
>     ::\ is not accessible
>     the path is invalid
> (close)
> the next pop up said-
>     '{450D8FBA-AD25-11D0-0800361B1103}' is not a valid folder
> (Close)
>
> any other location gets no response at all.  It's like clicking a dead or
> disconnected button.

I'd say your WinME is hosed. Contact the computer store.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18603
From: Madge Van Ness <madgevn@angelfire.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:22:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Yes, JT, but protecting said literary legacy does require some effort & lawyer's
fees.

That said, I also dream of the day that my favorite books are available on the
net...complete with original frontispieces and illustrations and cover art.

MadgEdith

JT wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 22:25:41 -0500, Madge Van Ness
> <madgevn@angelfire.com> wrote:
> > but I don't
> >particularly squawk about Rockefellers or Kennedy's trading on the family trust
> >fund/foundation/name and I suppose that a literary legacy is as valid as a family
> >farm.
> >MadgEdith
>
> Except that a family farm still needs a lot of work put into it yearly
> to bear harvest.  A work, once written, is usually done--"uncut"
> restorations notwithstanding. ;)
>
> I agree that your original question posed a valid point--should
> generations later be able to exclusively gain from the work of a
> relative?
>
> I really don't know.  I hope the advent of digital storage means that
> everything can stay "in print" and accessible to those that want
> it--the nuances of copyright are probably beyond my limited attention
> span. ;)
>
> JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18604
From: Madge Van Ness <madgevn@angelfire.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:26:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ah, yes, Martin Tabnick, the divinity decree by mail theologian. Or maybe
anti-theologian. Don't think I regret a word I wrote then.

MadgEdith

JT wrote:

> On Tue, 20 Feb 2001 18:55:07 -0500, "Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >Thus started the sdh-f flamewar of the year.
> >
> >I am more and more amazed by the maturity and grace of all of the
> >participants here.  Had I been one of the participants, I hope I would have
> >been able to conduct myself as well as you have done.  It wasn't fun, but it
> >was important.
> >
> >Frank Fujita
> >
> The most fun I ever had  in an HF discussion, discounting the Pun
> Wars, was over a religious topic, back on the old Prodigy-only "Arts
> Club BB".  Had a guy come in claiming to be a Reverend and saying
> silly things, and some people got really upset.  We ended up giving
> him the silent treatment, and he went away eventually.
>
> I wonder if BC or Tomstaafl still has copies of the "Tabnick" (his
> name) thread?  I would get a kick out of reading them again....
>
> We're too civil here these days to get really nasty. ;)
>
> JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18605
From: MidnightBlu" <MidnightBlu@home.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:40:25 -0500
Subject: 
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I`m desparate to know asap where Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics is
mentioned in Stranger In A Strange Land. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18606
From: MidnightBlu" <MidnightBlu@home.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 22:43:44 -0500
Subject: Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I`m desparate to know asap where Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics is
mentioned in Stranger In A Strange Land. Any help would be appreciated.

Sorry about the double post....

Thanks

--
MidnightBlue

Carpe Noctem



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18607
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:06:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

MidnightBlu wrote:

> I`m desparate to know asap where Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics is
> mentioned in Stranger In A Strange Land. Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Sorry about the double post....
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> MidnightBlue
>
> Carpe Noctem

I've read both versions many times and i can't recall it at all. I may have
missed it of course but are you sure it's SIASL?

Jane



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18608
From: David Wright" <maikosht@alltel.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:25:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"ddavitt" <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:3A966E80.24CF39E0@netcom.ca...
> MidnightBlu wrote:
>
> > I`m desparate to know asap where Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
is
> > mentioned in Stranger In A Strange Land. Any help would be appreciated.
> >
> > Sorry about the double post....
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > --
> > MidnightBlue
> >
> > Carpe Noctem
>
> I've read both versions many times and i can't recall it at all. I may
have
> missed it of course but are you sure it's SIASL?
>
> Jane
>
>
I've read everything Heinlein ever published, (I think), many times and I do
not recall ever seeing this reference.

David Wright



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18609
From: Sames" <lastdreamer@email.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:42:50 +0100
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

It have not posted anything for quite a while, but let me try to
explain one reason, why it won't work: Coke.
As long a bottle of Coke (or any other fizzy drink) is closed, you
don't see any bubbles of CO2, only when you open it and by that lower
the pressure inside the bottle. 
The reason for that is, that  the higher the pressure of a liquid is,
the more gas (H or O) can be dissolved in it. And before you can start
making bubbles of gas, you have to saturate the liquid. So if you want
to produce bubbles of gas, you would need the more energy for that,
the deeper you go, because the deeper you go, the higher the pressure
is.

Another reason is, that the amount of energy you could win by using
the rising bubbles is vey low. They are very slow and have not much
mass, and by that the kinetic energy they carry is very low.

Sames

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:34:04 -0800, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:

>OK, here's the idea. I have created a method of taking energy out of the
>ocean, or possibly smaller bodies of water. However, I can't determine if it
>violates thermodynamics.
>
>Suppose I have a long tube reaching down deep into the ocean. At the bottom,
>I use electrodes to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen. The oxygen and
>hydrogen rise through the tube. At the top, I burn the oxygen and hydrogen
>to make electricity.
>
>OK, so far, so good. Basic thermodynamics says I will always use more
>electricity than I will get back. Fine. If I have a really good conversion
>process, I might get back most of the energy I put in.
>
>Now, I put a generator in the tube, which uses the rising bubbles to
>generate electricity.
>
>Will I definitely get less electricity than I put in? If so, can you prove
>it? If not, where does the extra energy come from?
>
>Filksinger
>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18610
From: Sames" <lastdreamer@email.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:33:37 +0100
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ok, I thought a bit more about it. I'm not sure, but maybe this makes
some sense:
To describe electrolysis of water, you have to describe water as
(ionized) water that is dissolved in water. So instead of H-O-H, you
describe the water molecule you want to "split" as two H- and one O++
ion. Now electrolysis does the following: it moves the ions to the
electrodes, were it will take one electron from each H- and give the
O++ two electrons.
Now we have two single H atoms and one O atom. We do not have H and O
molecules (H-H and O=O) yet and by that no gas bubbles yet. These
atoms want to have a partner (isn't it romantic?), they either find
another atom of their kind and build the gas molecules or they
dissolve again in the water (as H- and O++), which is equal to become
a (dissolved) water molecule (H-O-H) again. What they do is a
statistical problem that depends of the "attractiveness" of each
possiblity under the given conditions.
But as I said before, the higher the pressure is, the higher is the
chance of dissolving. So at higher pressure (=greater deep) you will
produce less gas with the same amount of electric energy, because more
of the Atoms are "lost". To say it easier: at high pressure the
electrical resistance of water is higher, to achieve the same
current(*) you need a higher voltage, what means you need a higher
energy (E = e U) to produce the same amount of "bubbles" the deeper
you come. 


Sames

(*) which is equal to the amount of gas you produce, since the current
in the water is accomplished by a current of H- and O++ ions and NOT
by free electrons. 

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18611
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:32:28 GMT
Subject: Old Song Sheet Music--"The Love Nest
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

OK, a friend's mother  is putting on a play at
their senior trailer park in Florida.  She'd like to have the music to
an old song so she can play it on the piano.

The song was used as the opening theme song for the old 1950's TV show
"Burns and Allen" featuring the comedian George Burns and his wife
Gracie Allen.

Someone told her  that the song may be called "The Love Nest".  She
has done a web search and although she did not come up with the music
on-line or a source through which to purchase it, she did come up with
a cover picture of the original sheet music in some college's
archives. It appears to have originated in a play called "Mary" by
George M. Cohen.  However the words and music were written by two
other fellows (I don't have those names). She believes the song is now
in the public domain.

Does this ring any bells in the far corners of anyone's minds?

Thanks,

JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18612
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:21:03 -0800
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Sames" <lastdreamer@email.com> wrote in message
news:fZyWOsPuFO18IhZ=t96MdoVa+Vcf@4ax.com...
> It have not posted anything for quite a while, but let me try to
> explain one reason, why it won't work: Coke.
> As long a bottle of Coke (or any other fizzy drink) is closed, you
> don't see any bubbles of CO2, only when you open it and by that lower
> the pressure inside the bottle.

Correct.

> The reason for that is, that  the higher the pressure of a liquid is,
> the more gas (H or O) can be dissolved in it. And before you can start
> making bubbles of gas, you have to saturate the liquid. So if you want
> to produce bubbles of gas, you would need the more energy for that,
> the deeper you go, because the deeper you go, the higher the pressure
> is.

Incorrect. You are confusing energy and solubility. It doesn't take more
energy to create a bubble, it takes more gas or a change in temperature.
They are related, _if_ you are using energy to create gas, but you cannot
substitute one for the other. It doesn't translate across.

> Another reason is, that the amount of energy you could win by using
> the rising bubbles is vey low. They are very slow and have not much
> mass, and by that the kinetic energy they carry is very low.

Kinetic energy is irrelevant. Lift is the only relevant force, and it is not
directly related to kinetic energy.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18613
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:35:14 -0800
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Sames" <lastdreamer@email.com> wrote in message
news:AruWOodQPg3SEWWGvsepvDQ8eavV@4ax.com...
> Ok, I thought a bit more about it. I'm not sure, but maybe this makes
> some sense:
> To describe electrolysis of water, you have to describe water as
> (ionized) water that is dissolved in water. So instead of H-O-H, you
> describe the water molecule you want to "split" as two H- and one O++
> ion. Now electrolysis does the following: it moves the ions to the
> electrodes, were it will take one electron from each H- and give the
> O++ two electrons.
> Now we have two single H atoms and one O atom. We do not have H and O
> molecules (H-H and O=O) yet and by that no gas bubbles yet.

Incorrect. Atomic H and atomic O are both gases.

> These
> atoms want to have a partner (isn't it romantic?), they either find
> another atom of their kind and build the gas molecules or they
> dissolve again in the water (as H- and O++), which is equal to become
> a (dissolved) water molecule (H-O-H) again. What they do is a
> statistical problem that depends of the "attractiveness" of each
> possiblity under the given conditions.

True.

> But as I said before, the higher the pressure is, the higher is the
> chance of dissolving. So at higher pressure (=greater deep) you will
> produce less gas with the same amount of electric energy, because more
> of the Atoms are "lost". To say it easier: at high pressure the
> electrical resistance of water is higher, to achieve the same
> current(*) you need a higher voltage, what means you need a higher
> energy (E = e U) to produce the same amount of "bubbles" the deeper
> you come.

This is true, but not relevant. Oxygen and hydrogen would have to
overwhelmingly prefer recombining to escaping under the pressures involved.
They don't, not even at the pressure that exists at the bottom of the ocean.

> Sames
>
> (*) which is equal to the amount of gas you produce, since the current
> in the water is accomplished by a current of H- and O++ ions and NOT
> by free electrons.

The energy needed to free gas atoms from water under pressure using
electrolysis is not significantly greater at relevant pressures. Solubility,
which is a different matter, is more significant, but in order for
solubility or pressure forcing water molecules together to be a solution to
this experiment, they would have to be governed by thermodynamics. So far as
I know, they aren't.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18614
From: MidnightBlu" <MidnightBlu@home.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:53:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

It seems I was misled about the origins of this phrase. I thank any who took
time over this question and apologize for wasting your time.

Thanks again.

--
MidnightBlue

I am what I believe.


"MidnightBlu" <MidnightBlu@home.com> wrote in message
news:3a95de31.0@news.sff.net...
> I`m desparate to know asap where Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
is
> mentioned in Stranger In A Strange Land. Any help would be appreciated.
>
> Sorry about the double post....
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> MidnightBlue
>
> Carpe Noctem
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------

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