SFF Net Newsgroup Archive
sff.discuss.heinlein-forum 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74
http://www.sff.net/

Archive of:   sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by:  webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:00:56
============================================================

Article 18615
From: SynABit@kc.invalid (Dennis Doms)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:01:08 GMT
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a95c697.0@news.sff.net>, "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
wrote:

>"Dennis Doms" <SynABit@kc.invalid> wrote in message
>news:3a95a08b.1264663@news.sff.net...
>> In article <3a947c3a.0@news.sff.net>, "Filksinger"
><filksinger@earthling.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >So, suppose my tube is only 30 inches? The efficency of electrolosys is
>> >certainly not _that_ sensitive. If it was, every book that told you how
>to
>> >do electrolosys would have to warn you about the difficulties involved
>with
>> >the tiny change in pressure. Will the pressure overcome the lift of the
>> >bubbles when it is that small?
>>
>> My practical answer to that would be, build it and see. :)
>
>Yes, but this is a thought experiment. When Einstein and Bohr used thought
>experiments, Einstein would create an experiment in his mind where the
>Heisenburg Uncertainty Principle could be bypassed by a measurement, _in
>theory_ and assuming perfect instruments, and Bohr would point out that the
>measurement would be disturbed even with perfect equipment. It wasn't
>necessary in most cases to do the experiment, it was only necessary to find
>the point at which Einstein's theoretical measuring aparatus would be
>corrupted by uncertainty.
>

It probably isn't necessary in this case, either. I could sit down and work
the math. But I'm not really inclined to.

Thought experiments are only useful when they are the most practical method to
test a construct.. That isn't the case here. If this thing is to be practical,
it has to be built. I say if you're going to disagree with intuition, then go
ahead and build it.

>> However, whatever the relationship is, it's proportional. Whatever the
>math at
>> 3000 feet, it will be the same at 30 inches.
>
>But it shouldn't be. The energy to extract via electrolysis is governed by
>the energy needed to separate the atoms and, by your theory, somehow also
>overcome pressure. The energy gained by catching rising bubbles is directly
>proportional to the difference between the density of the original liquid
>and the density of the gaseous bubbles.

Not by my theory. It's called equilibrium. Using the equation:

	2H2O <---------> 2H2 + O2

Under normal atmospheric pressure, the gases want to expand to the
proportionate volume, which is much greater than that of the water. Anything
that "stresses" against that (which increasing pressure will do) will shift
the equilibrium of the reaction in favor of the reactants over the products.
Therefore, it _will_ take more energy at higher pressures to produce the
products.

I'm a chemist by education, though that's not as much of what I do these days.

RE taking energy from catching rising bubbles: I'd be interested in a
mathematical model of how you plan to capture that work. If, say, you use the
bubbles to push a plunger to the surface, where will you get the energy to
return it to the initial state do more work? If you use a "paddlewheel"-type
construct, could it generate enough energy to sustain the electrolysis? I
don't think so.

>I can see no reason why the differences in density should have anything to
>do with either the energy needed to separate the atoms or the energy needed
>to overcome the pressure.
>
>> >Also, you might remember that the increased pressure at depth makes the
>> >bubbles rise more forcefully, allowing me to extract more energy. I could
>> >create a dozen generators, or a hundred, each taking a small piece of
>that
>> >energy of the rising bubbles.
>>
>> Uh, think about where the bubble came from. In order to _create_ the
>bubble at
>> greater depth, you have to expend more energy.
>
>1) This is a guess on your part, and I don't necessarily agree that it is
>true. In fact, I am reasonably certain it is not.

It's your theory. The burden is on you to prove it.

>2) Even if so, there is no reason why the two forces should be related, as
>they are caused by very different factors that have no direct relationship.

I'm not sure what exactly this refers to. No, I can't correlate the energy of
the rising bubbles to the energy required to create them exactly. But neither
can you.

I can work from this thought: I can't see any way that the "power" generated
by rising bubbles turning a waterwheel in an aquarium could power the pump
that pushes the air. I also don't believe it could generate enough electricity
to maintain electrolysis to generate the gas in place of the pump. Now, I
guess you can re-burn the gasses when they reach the surface. But I still
don't see how you're going to capture that energy to return it to the system.
I certainly don't see these things being sufficient to be self-sustaining.

>> I realize this is not quantitative, but for every factor you think is an
>> unbalanced gain, I see as having an opposite cost.
>
>Oh, I understand that they might have an opposing cost. But I cannot see a
>relationship between the energy needed to split a molecule, the pressure
>under which the molecule is, and the volume of a gas released by
>electrolysis as compared to the volume the liquid that was turned into gas.

Grab a physical chemistry text. It may take you a few months. :)

>Filksinger

 --
Dennis Doms  SynABit@kc.invalid  http://home.earthlink.net/~chemsleuth
[replace "invalid" with "rr.com" for valid mail]

  "It doesn't matter if we turn to dust; turn and turn and turn we must
         I guess I'll see you, dancing in the ruins tonight..."
	                 -- Blue Oyster Cult

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18616
From: SynABit@kc.invalid (Dennis Doms)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:02:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <fZyWOsPuFO18IhZ=t96MdoVa+Vcf@4ax.com>, "Sames"
<lastdreamer@email.com> wrote:

>It have not posted anything for quite a while, but let me try to
>explain one reason, why it won't work: Coke.
>As long a bottle of Coke (or any other fizzy drink) is closed, you
>don't see any bubbles of CO2, only when you open it and by that lower
>the pressure inside the bottle. 

Darn. Wish I'd thought of that analogy. :)


 --
Dennis Doms  SynABit@kc.invalid  http://home.earthlink.net/~chemsleuth
[replace "invalid" with "rr.com" for valid mail]

  "It doesn't matter if we turn to dust; turn and turn and turn we must
         I guess I'll see you, dancing in the ruins tonight..."
	                 -- Blue Oyster Cult

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18617
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:07:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

MidnightBlu wrote:

> It seems I was misled about the origins of this phrase. I thank any who took
> time over this question and apologize for wasting your time.
>
> Thanks again.
>
>

No problem...so do you know where it is mentioned? And what is it anyway?

Jane



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18618
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 17:48:36 -0800
Subject: Re: Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"MidnightBlu" <MidnightBlu@home.com> wrote in message
news:3a95de31.0@news.sff.net...
> I`m desparate to know asap where Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
is
> mentioned in Stranger In A Strange Land. Any help would be appreciated.

Kiri-Kin-Tha's First Law of Metaphysics
"Nothing Unreal Exists"

Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18619
From: LORRITA  MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:45:21 -0800
Subject: Re: Advice, Please
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3a95c88b.0@news.sff.net...
> I'd say your WinME is hosed. Contact the computer store.
>
> Filksinger
>

I came to the same conclusion.  I grabbed the recovery disks, followed
directions to reinstall windows, and solved the above mentioned problems.

Outlook Express had a corrupt file.

--
Later,

`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18620
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:56:53 -0800
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Dennis Doms" <SynABit@kc.invalid> wrote in message
news:3a96f454.3137932@news.sff.net...
> In article <3a95c697.0@news.sff.net>, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net>
> wrote:
<snip stuff I and Dennis said>
>
> It probably isn't necessary in this case, either. I could sit down and
work
> the math. But I'm not really inclined to.
>
> Thought experiments are only useful when they are the most practical
method to
> test a construct.. That isn't the case here. If this thing is to be
practical,
> it has to be built. I say if you're going to disagree with intuition, then
go
> ahead and build it.

I disagree about thought experiments. That's not how they work.

Suppose I built this device and it fails. Does that prove it cannot work?
No, it only proves that it didn't work. It may work still, if I change some
part of it. Maybe it would work, but only with a different liquid. Maybe it
would work, but only if I use a different turbine design. Maybe it would
work, but only if designed by someone who actually knows how to do
engineering. There is no basis to tell.

OTOH, a well-thought-out thought experiment can tell you up front that your
idea is unworkable. Many of the best inventors throughout history worked
thought experiments before every attemt to build a model, while others who
didn't needed armies of lab workers to make their ideas work.

I am looking for basic theory. It does or does not violate the Second Law of
Thermodynamics. Does it, and if so, in what way? I assume that it cannot
succcessfully violate thermodynamics, so what, exactly stops it?

This may not be determinable by anything but experiment, but I very much
doubt it. It should be possible to settle this by pure theory. In fact, it
should be possible to show that with perfect liquids, perfect gases, and
perfect mechanisms, this device will still fail. Either that, or it should
be possible to show that X must be true, or it would succeed. But I don't
know what X is.

> >> However, whatever the relationship is, it's proportional. Whatever the
> >math at
> >> 3000 feet, it will be the same at 30 inches.
> >
> >But it shouldn't be. The energy to extract via electrolysis is governed
by
> >the energy needed to separate the atoms and, by your theory, somehow also
> >overcome pressure. The energy gained by catching rising bubbles is
directly
> >proportional to the difference between the density of the original liquid
> >and the density of the gaseous bubbles.
>
> Not by my theory. It's called equilibrium. Using the equation:
>
> 2H2O <---------> 2H2 + O2
>
> Under normal atmospheric pressure, the gases want to expand to the
> proportionate volume, which is much greater than that of the water.
Anything
> that "stresses" against that (which increasing pressure will do) will
shift
> the equilibrium of the reaction in favor of the reactants over the
products.
> Therefore, it _will_ take more energy at higher pressures to produce the
> products.
>
> I'm a chemist by education, though that's not as much of what I do these
days.

Hmm. You seemed uncertain about this in your first posts.

Since you seem certain, I am reconsidering. I may have found the mechanism
by which what you say would expand universally to cover perfect liquids,
perfect gases, and perfect mechanisms. If so, then we have settled this one.

I have to run now, so I hope I won't forget to let you know what I think.

> RE taking energy from catching rising bubbles: I'd be interested in a
> mathematical model of how you plan to capture that work. If, say, you use
the
> bubbles to push a plunger to the surface, where will you get the energy to
> return it to the initial state do more work? If you use a
"paddlewheel"-type
> construct, could it generate enough energy to sustain the electrolysis? I
> don't think so.
>
> >I can see no reason why the differences in density should have anything
to
> >do with either the energy needed to separate the atoms or the energy
needed
> >to overcome the pressure.
> >
> >> >Also, you might remember that the increased pressure at depth makes
the
> >> >bubbles rise more forcefully, allowing me to extract more energy. I
could
> >> >create a dozen generators, or a hundred, each taking a small piece of
> >that
> >> >energy of the rising bubbles.
> >>
> >> Uh, think about where the bubble came from. In order to _create_ the
> >bubble at
> >> greater depth, you have to expend more energy.
> >
> >1) This is a guess on your part, and I don't necessarily agree that it is
> >true. In fact, I am reasonably certain it is not.
>
> It's your theory. The burden is on you to prove it.

Ah, but it isn't my theory. I believe it will not work, unless there is some
source of energy that would satisfy thermodynamics. I just don't know what
it is, or, if it is not, what part of my device fails.

> >2) Even if so, there is no reason why the two forces should be related,
as
> >they are caused by very different factors that have no direct
relationship.
>
> I'm not sure what exactly this refers to. No, I can't correlate the energy
of
> the rising bubbles to the energy required to create them exactly. But
neither
> can you.
>
> I can work from this thought: I can't see any way that the "power"
generated
> by rising bubbles turning a waterwheel in an aquarium could power the pump
> that pushes the air. I also don't believe it could generate enough
electricity
> to maintain electrolysis to generate the gas in place of the pump. Now, I
> guess you can re-burn the gasses when they reach the surface. But I still
> don't see how you're going to capture that energy to return it to the
system.
> I certainly don't see these things being sufficient to be self-sustaining.

Thermodynamics states that, even in a perfect system, burning the gas has to
give more energy than separating it out. However, assuming a perfect system,
that difference is small.

If you are right, and it takes more energy to create the bubbles than the
bubbles give back by rising, their must be a direct mechanism by which these
are proportionate, or the energy sink must exceed the energy boost.

You are quite probably right. I'm just not sure by what mechanism the
difficulty of producing bubbles becomes proportionate to the energy the
bubbles generate as they rise.

> >> I realize this is not quantitative, but for every factor you think is
an
> >> unbalanced gain, I see as having an opposite cost.
> >
> >Oh, I understand that they might have an opposing cost. But I cannot see
a
> >relationship between the energy needed to split a molecule, the pressure
> >under which the molecule is, and the volume of a gas released by
> >electrolysis as compared to the volume the liquid that was turned into
gas.
>
> Grab a physical chemistry text. It may take you a few months. :)

Maybe. But are you _sure_ it is there, and in the necessary proportions to
make this device impossible? There could be other flaws in this model, you
know. It isn't necessary for you to be right for the model to fail.

However, I may have discovered the missing link that allows your theory to
prevail. More on this later.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18621
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 18:58:41 -0800
Subject: A Story I Cannot Remember Clearly
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In eighth or ninth grade, about 20 years ago, I read a story that I recall
as being about K2. I have since lost track of the story entirely, and I was
hoping you might be familar with it.

I believe the story was supposed to be about K2, but it might have been
another mountain. I didn't know if it was true or not, and I don't know if
it was written before or after the actual climbing of K2, but it fascinated
me. Since then, I have come to the conclusion that it was not true of K2,
but it may have been true of another mountain.

The essence of the story was this. After considerable climbing, three men
continued climbing beyond the others. Two of them feuded frequently, but not
so as to endanger the mission. One of the men had more experience than the
other, and owned an ice axe (is that the correct term?) given to him by Sir
Edmund Hilliary, which was his most favored possession.

Finally, at one point, the younger of the two men fell while crossing a
crevass or chimney. The elder held out his axe, and pulled the younger to
the cliff wall where the younger man managed to hang on, but himself fell,
leaving his favorite axe in the hands of the younger man.

Being very near the top, the two men debated whether to climb or go back.
The man whose life had been saved eventually continued towards the top
alone. Several hours later, he returned, and reported that he had failed
within a hundred feet of the summit. In the process, he had lost the axe.

Some time later (2 years, if I recall correctly), a later expedition reached
the summit, where they found the axe imbedded in the summit.

Any clues?

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18622
From: Robert Slater" <rslater215@home.com>
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:36:09 -0800
Subject: SIFI Rob sells a story
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Hey Folks,
Just sold a short short (550 words) to Jackhammer II for $25.00!!!  I'll let
you know when it will go up.   There is also potential for more $ as stories
that are received well on the site may be kept up for more than a month at
the rate of $.25 a day.  This is my biggest sale and by far in pennies per
word.  Of my $65 in writing income $35 has now come from
Jackhammer/Jackhammer II/Dark Matter Chronicles all from Eggplant
Productions.  Now if I can only use this to rev up my creative engine to
finish some fiction.  In other news a short play I wrote was produced as a
collection of one acts locally.  I was pleased with the result.
Rob



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18623
From: Sames" <lastdreamer@email.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:41:54 +0100
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

>> The reason for that is, that  the higher the pressure of a liquid is,
>> the more gas (H or O) can be dissolved in it. And before you can start
>> making bubbles of gas, you have to saturate the liquid. So if you want
>> to produce bubbles of gas, you would need the more energy for that,
>> the deeper you go, because the deeper you go, the higher the pressure
>> is.
>
>Incorrect. You are confusing energy and solubility. It doesn't take more
>energy to create a bubble, it takes more gas or a change in temperature.
>They are related, _if_ you are using energy to create gas, but you cannot
>substitute one for the other. It doesn't translate across.
You can express solubility in terms of energy! It is the difference in
energy between a bound molecule and it's dissolved ions. An example:
if you dissolve KCl in water you win 16 kJ for every mol of KCl that
becomes K+ and Cl- (1 kJ are 1000 Joule, a unit of energy!). If you
want to get the KCl back, you first have to put 16kJ/mol into the
water. But you are right, that has nothing to do with our problem:

Let's take 2 water molecules, as molecules they are H2O and have a
certain binding energy, when they are dissovled in water you have one
H3O+  and one OH-   .... OK, I started to look it up. And found out,
that I was wrong. You do not describe electrolysis with H- and O++
ions, but with the ions obove. And with them it is just the other way
round. The higher the pressure is, the more unlikely this
"autoprotolyse" of the water is  - I was unable to find THAT word in
any dictionary, but it means that a certain amount of the water
molecules become H3O+ (acid group) and OH- (base group). The movement
of those groups accomplishs the electric current (=charge per time).
Since everything but the gas atomes/molecules will become water again
(*), one can talk about H+ and O--. In the end it are all just models.
The speed by that those acid and base groups move is proportional to
the voltage you use, and the voltage you use is proportional to the
energy you need for the production of every gas atom. (E = U *  Z e- )
Since at greater deep there are less of the charges, you need to
transport them faster to have the same current (=gas production). To
transport them faster you need a higher voltage and that means you
indeed need the more energy, the deeper you come. You have to ask a
chemist for the proportional factor.
You are right, it is insignificant more energy, that you need. But it
is directly dependent on the deepness, so is your "Lift" energy. And
you really cannot produce much energy with you "Lift" force, if you
compare it to the energy you need for the electrolysis.


>> Another reason is, that the amount of energy you could win by using
>> the rising bubbles is vey low. They are very slow and have not much
>> mass, and by that the kinetic energy they carry is very low.
>
>Kinetic energy is irrelevant. Lift is the only relevant force, and it is not
>directly related to kinetic energy.
Lift is the force that is responsible for the kintetic energy, yes.
But you use the _moving_ bubbles (kinetic energy of movement) to turn
the wheels (kinetic energy of rotation) that produce electric energy
via a dynamo. And that movement is caused by the the lift, which is
caused by gravity. A force alone is no energy, it has to act on
something for a certain time or length/hight to "make" energy.



Sames

(*) That's what happens at the electrodes:
4 H3O+ plus 4 e-  --> 4 H2O and 2 H2
4 OH- minus 4 e-  --> 2 H2O and 1 O2


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18624
From: debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:00:44 GMT
Subject: Web pages
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


  I've moved my web site and started a new site. (JT--changes your
Gathering photo links for the Forum site).

  New home page is http://www.dahoudek.com with a link to my Heinlein
page on it, or direct to the Heinlein page at
http://www.dahoudek.com/heinlein . I have more planned for the
Heinlein page--I backtracked his family's genealogy into the early
1800s, for one thing, as well as a look at the influence of the Civil
War in Missouri on his stories. I'm adding short stories to my
homepage every few months, too. The next one added--probably next
month--will be the one that was published this last summer in Terra
Incognita.

  My other new site is focused on the Civil War in Missouri, primarily
St. Louis. On top of an article accepted by "North & South" magazine,
I plan to have a book out before the end of the year, with several
more planned to follow. Geo has become an enthusiastic co-researcher
and has written several pieces for the web site. It's at
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com . There will be regular additions. 


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18625
From: debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:09:48 GMT
Subject: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


  I had an interesting epiphany moment yesterday. We were running a
piece on the Donner party. One of the descendants commented that the
cannibalism of the Donner party was something he thought of as being
like organ donation--the people were dead and their body parts would
save the living. 

  This is exactly what organ donation is--cannibalism. Except where we
have a deep and almost automatic disgust of people eating other people
("trying to dehumanize us" was the outraged reaction of some American
Indians to the recently presented evidence of cannibalism amongst
their distant ancestors), organ donation is being promoted as a noble
act. Curious. Remember the end of Soylent Green? "Soylent Green is
people!" I wonder if in the next scene, the one after the movie ended,
everyone just shrugged and said "So?"


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18626
From: Sames" <lastdreamer@email.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 11:07:26 +0100
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Another idea: 
when the bubbles bubble up, they expand as the pressure get's lower.
As they expand, they become colder, they lose heat energy.
To explain in another way: under high pressure the gas atoms are
closer together, you need less energy to bring them together, than
you'd need under low pressure. You win this difference in energy as
heat energy. You lose this bonus energy when you transport the bubbles
from the deep to the surface.
On the other hand, I cannot see, why this should not be an adiabatic
process (volume and pressure changing, _without_ affecting the temp).
I still believe in the other idea.

Sames



On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 17:34:04 -0800, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:

>OK, here's the idea. I have created a method of taking energy out of the
>ocean, or possibly smaller bodies of water. However, I can't determine if it
>violates thermodynamics.
>
>Suppose I have a long tube reaching down deep into the ocean. At the bottom,
>I use electrodes to turn water into hydrogen and oxygen. The oxygen and
>hydrogen rise through the tube. At the top, I burn the oxygen and hydrogen
>to make electricity.
>
>OK, so far, so good. Basic thermodynamics says I will always use more
>electricity than I will get back. Fine. If I have a really good conversion
>process, I might get back most of the energy I put in.
>
>Now, I put a generator in the tube, which uses the rising bubbles to
>generate electricity.
>
>Will I definitely get less electricity than I put in? If so, can you prove
>it? If not, where does the extra energy come from?
>
>Filksinger


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18627
From: SynABit@kc.invalid (Dennis Doms)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 13:26:05 GMT
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a96f3ad.0@news.sff.net>, "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
wrote:

>Incorrect. Atomic H and atomic O are both gases.

Incorrect. Atomic H and O would be a plasma, because a lot of energy would
have to be extant to keep them from recombining. They preferentially exist as
H2 and O2.

>This is true, but not relevant. Oxygen and hydrogen would have to
>overwhelmingly prefer recombining to escaping under the pressures involved.
>They don't, not even at the pressure that exists at the bottom of the ocean.

Do you know (can you explain) why that is? (Yes, this is a test. :)

>The energy needed to free gas atoms from water under pressure using
>electrolysis is not significantly greater at relevant pressures.

Still wrong.

In order to go from:

	2H2O(l) ----> 2H2(g) + O2(g)

You have to add sufficient energy to the system for the phase change from
liquid to gas, and to break the four (two times two) H-O bonds. Then you can
subtract the energy released for the formation of two H-H bonds and one O=O
(double) bond.

(To go ahead and answer the above question, the impetus of the release of the
bonding energy for formation of the diatomic molecules drives that reaction.
Systems tend toward lower energy.)

Then you have to calculate the volume the gasses would occupy at the ambient
temperature and pressure. (You need to do this because tabular bond energies
you find will likely be under near STP conditions, so we need to figure out
any additional stresses to the equilibrium that we can quantitate.) In a
student exercise, this would be done using V=nRT/P, however, that is based on
ideal gas behavior, and there would be deviations under these conditions.

Then you have to calculate the force required for the surrounding water to be
pushed back to allow the gaseous products to occupy that calculated space.
Since this would be a point-bubble expanding to some distinct radius, you'd
need to use calculus to divide the surface force against the size of the
bubble at that time as it incrementally expands along the radius.

Then you have to calculate the force that bubble would generate as it moved to
the surface, allowing for the fact that the volume of the bubble (and
therefore i's density) would change as it rose. To be rigourous, you also need
to incorporate the density changes of the surrounding water (smaller, but
measurable).

Then you get to the surface (or whatever point) and you convert the gasses
back to water. To do that, you have to add energy of ignition to get the
reaction started. The gasses convert (let's assume 100%) to water, their
volume goes back to (comparatively) near-zero (only to the volume of the water
formed). There will be no excess energy here that I can see, because you
basically are reversing the steps needed to create the gasses in the first
place. And you have to add energy into the system to initiate the reaction.

Again, I don't see where you believe you are going to get "extra" energy, or
even enough to sustain the work since all processes initiated are reversed.
You start with a drop of water at the bottom of the ocean, and you end with a
drop of water at the surface. The net effect is that you've moved a drop of
water a few thousand feet, and that _takes_ energy, not supplies it.

>Solubility,
>which is a different matter, is more significant, but in order for
>solubility or pressure forcing water molecules together to be a solution to
>this experiment, they would have to be governed by thermodynamics. So far as
>I know, they aren't.

It's not a factor for the water molecules; there are thermodynamics involved,
but the water not involved in the reaction stays water so we ignore them as
innocent bystanders. (Technically, therewould be some solubility, but it can
probably be treated as negligible.)

>Filksinger
>
>

 --
Dennis Doms  SynABit@kc.invalid  http://home.earthlink.net/~chemsleuth
[replace "invalid" with "rr.com" for valid mail]

  "It doesn't matter if we turn to dust; turn and turn and turn we must
         I guess I'll see you, dancing in the ruins tonight..."
	                 -- Blue Oyster Cult

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18628
From: SynABit@kc.invalid (Dennis Doms)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 14:31:13 GMT
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a9722ee.0@news.sff.net>, "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
wrote:

>I disagree about thought experiments. That's not how they work.
>
>Suppose I built this device and it fails. Does that prove it cannot work?
>No, it only proves that it didn't work. It may work still, if I change some
>part of it. Maybe it would work, but only with a different liquid. Maybe it
>would work, but only if I use a different turbine design. Maybe it would
>work, but only if designed by someone who actually knows how to do
>engineering. There is no basis to tell.

In my last message, I laid out most of the calculations required. My point is
that in a true thought experiment, you as the "proposer" should have been
responsible for this. Einstein knew the mathematical basis of his theories
inside and out, implemented the theoretical models quantitatively, and then
experiements were still conducted to confirm them.

In science, it is the responsibility of the person with the hypothesis to
prove (by theoretical or physical experiment) the basic viability of their
position. Otherwise, too much time is spent challenging ill-formed hypotheses.

I think I did a lot of the work in the last message, and I quoted the basis of
some calculations that should be relevant. You may want to look at them and
dispute anything you disagree with. But I shouldn't have had to be the one
trying to more rigourously  quantify the elements of your experiment. (I don't
way that to be chastizing; only to point out in a factual manner  that I don't
think you supported your position initially sufficiently to be challenging
other people's questions about it's viability.)

>OTOH, a well-thought-out thought experiment can tell you up front that your
>idea is unworkable. Many of the best inventors throughout history worked
>thought experiments before every attemt to build a model, while others who
>didn't needed armies of lab workers to make their ideas work.

It depends on the system. In some, the mathematical models are well enough
known (or can be constructed) to be relatively realistic. In others, the math
may be overwhelming and it's easier to just build and test.

>I am looking for basic theory. It does or does not violate the Second Law of
>Thermodynamics. Does it, and if so, in what way? I assume that it cannot
>succcessfully violate thermodynamics, so what, exactly stops it?

See my previous response about bond energies and gas laws.

My point is this: if you can't do the math from this information to verify
your position, I'm not sure that someone else delineating it would be visible
proof to you.

I'm not trying to be (scientifically) chauvenistic. I think you work with
computers, and you probably have encountered situations where someone believes
they understand what you do well enough to do the same thing. Either they can
or they can't, but the only way to know is to have them demonstrate the
knowledge sufficient to do a task, or to actually do the task. That they can't
see that something is "undoable" may not mean that it's easy to explain _why_
to them, and in that case the only solution is to have _them_ attempt it,
because telling them "That's not possible" (or maybe productively easy) is not
going to resolve the disagreement.

>This may not be determinable by anything but experiment, but I very much
>doubt it. It should be possible to settle this by pure theory. In fact, it
>should be possible to show that with perfect liquids, perfect gases, and
>perfect mechanisms, this device will still fail. Either that, or it should
>be possible to show that X must be true, or it would succeed. But I don't
>know what X is.

Sure. The problem (for me) is, outlined in the last message, I don't see the
point in pursuing it. I have done these types of calculations in the past, and
intuitively I reject the viability until someone shows me a quantitative model
that implies it _would_ work.

>Hmm. You seemed uncertain about this in your first posts.

I usually check my mail after work. I sometimes am not quite out of the fog.
(Hopefully I'm doing a bit better this morning. :)

Also, I don't like making strongly assertive statements without some precise
examples. Call it conservatism.

>Since you seem certain, I am reconsidering. I may have found the mechanism
>by which what you say would expand universally to cover perfect liquids,
>perfect gases, and perfect mechanisms. If so, then we have settled this one.

I thought it through and broke it down a bit better in my previous message.
But I still haven't done the hard calculations.

[Skipping some stuff...]

>Thermodynamics states that, even in a perfect system, burning the gas has to
>give more energy than separating it out. However, assuming a perfect system,
>that difference is small.

A curious interpretation of thermodynamics. Which law do you base that
conclusion on?

In order to burn the gas, you have to "inject" energy into the system (the
flame, or spark). Any "extra" energy you get out will be less than that added.

>If you are right, and it takes more energy to create the bubbles than the
>bubbles give back by rising, their must be a direct mechanism by which these
>are proportionate, or the energy sink must exceed the energy boost.
>
>You are quite probably right. I'm just not sure by what mechanism the
>difficulty of producing bubbles becomes proportionate to the energy the
>bubbles generate as they rise.

Like I said, I haven't run the numbers. But my previous example attempted to
break the components down and compare them in a better balance.

>Maybe. But are you _sure_ it is there, and in the necessary proportions to
>make this device impossible? There could be other flaws in this model, you
>know. It isn't necessary for you to be right for the model to fail.
>
>However, I may have discovered the missing link that allows your theory to
>prevail. More on this later.

And I apologize for not being more specific earlier. Sometimes you just want
to say "I know" and be done with it, but that's not very productive. :)

>Filksinger
>
>

 --
Dennis Doms  SynABit@kc.invalid  http://home.earthlink.net/~chemsleuth
[replace "invalid" with "rr.com" for valid mail]

  "It doesn't matter if we turn to dust; turn and turn and turn we must
         I guess I'll see you, dancing in the ruins tonight..."
	                 -- Blue Oyster Cult

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18629
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:28:12 GMT
Subject: Re: Web pages
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:00:44 GMT, debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
wrote:
>
>  I've moved my web site and started a new site. (JT--changes your
>Gathering photo links for the Forum site).

Thanks for the heads up, Deb.  I saw this back when you announced it
in your group, but I've been too lazy to change the links. ;)

Congrats on the domain.

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18630
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 00:28:12 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:09:48 GMT, debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
wrote:

>  This is exactly what organ donation is--cannibalism.

Ummm...my Scribner's says that cannibalism refers (in its broadest
sense) to the practice of animals eating their own kind.  

However, it has a separate entry for 'cannibalize' which is "to take
parts (from a wrecked or non-functioning mechanism) to repair another
of the same kind."

So depending on which meaning you're going for, you're right, or I
strongly disagree with you. ;)

I think the *intent* also plays a strong part.  I am an organ donor,
and if my wife were to receive any of my body parts if I died prior to
her and she needed them, she would still never be Hannibal Lecter. <G>

JT



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18631
From: zephy@vci.net (Jackie)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 02:59:42 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:09:48 GMT, debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
wrote:

>
>  I had an interesting epiphany moment yesterday. We were running a
>piece on the Donner party. One of the descendants commented that the
>cannibalism of the Donner party was something he thought of as being
>like organ donation--the people were dead and their body parts would
>save the living. 
>
>  This is exactly what organ donation is--cannibalism. Except where we
>have a deep and almost automatic disgust of people eating other people
>("trying to dehumanize us" was the outraged reaction of some American
>Indians to the recently presented evidence of cannibalism amongst
>their distant ancestors), organ donation is being promoted as a noble
>act. Curious. Remember the end of Soylent Green? "Soylent Green is
>people!" I wonder if in the next scene, the one after the movie ended,
>everyone just shrugged and said "So?"
>
>

Thing about solvent green, they were killing too for the food from the
living as well.  But starving is starving.  Can't say I could do that,
but I've never been in those circumstances.  And I don't think I could
off anyone I cared about even if meant my death but again, never been
placed in such a circumstance.  Lots of things we like to say we can't
do or wouldn't... but I bet if asked the doner party those questions
before left, they said no too..

Jackie

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18632
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:38:44 -0500
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a98500e.265956955@news.sff.net>, JT writes...
....
> I think the *intent* also plays a strong part.  I am an organ donor,

Which one?  ;-)

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18633
From: postmaster@sff.net
Date: 25 Mar 2001 22:00:56 GMT
Subject: No articles presently in newsgroup.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This newsgroup has no articles yet; however, if
you were to post something, it would.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18634
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:09:32 -0800
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Dennis Doms" <SynABit@kc.invalid> wrote in message
news:3a97b689.2517928@news.sff.net...
> In article <3a9722ee.0@news.sff.net>, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net>
> wrote:
>
<clip my claims and his good points>

> (I don't
> way that to be chastizing; only to point out in a factual manner
that I don't
> think you supported your position initially sufficiently to be
challenging
> other people's questions about it's viability.)

You are, of course, correct. My knowledge of the factors in question
is not only limited, but I have been way too many years from my last
physics or chemistry class to do this correctly.

Basically, what I wanted was for someone to tell me that yes, the
energy needed to perform electrolysis underwater _definitely_ was more
difficult in proportion to the lift produced by the bubbles created.
Why it was proportional would also be good.

Your posts have now given me enough information that I see the
relationship clearly now. Since I know the relationship, the math,
though interesting, is no longer necessary.

In the case of the thought experiments between Einstein and Bohr, it
was generally the case that Bohr needed merely point out the flaw in
the experiment. Einstein would propose a method to determine a
particle's energy at a time when it could only be in one location.
Bohr would then point out that the mass of the measuring device would
change during the experiment, causing the location to change. They
didn't need the math (though they both knew it), Bohr just pointed out
that even with perfect instruments, the experiment would inevitably
fail.

I guess what I was hoping for was something similar, and, after a bit
of debate, you have given me what I needed. Thank you.

> >I am looking for basic theory. It does or does not violate the
Second Law of
> >Thermodynamics. Does it, and if so, in what way? I assume that it
cannot
> >succcessfully violate thermodynamics, so what, exactly stops it?
>
> See my previous response about bond energies and gas laws.

Actually, as I posted lower in this message, I already have it. I
will, however, go over the other post in depth, because I am
interested in the math, even if it is not necessary to prove my theory
false.

> My point is this: if you can't do the math from this information to
verify
> your position, I'm not sure that someone else delineating it would
be visible
> proof to you.
>
> I'm not trying to be (scientifically) chauvenistic. I think you work
with
> computers, and you probably have encountered situations where
someone believes
> they understand what you do well enough to do the same thing. Either
they can
> or they can't, but the only way to know is to have them demonstrate
the
> knowledge sufficient to do a task, or to actually do the task. That
they can't
> see that something is "undoable" may not mean that it's easy to
explain _why_
> to them, and in that case the only solution is to have _them_
attempt it,
> because telling them "That's not possible" (or maybe productively
easy) is not
> going to resolve the disagreement.

I understand. And you are correct, that is roughly what is happening
here. I was undertain if you were guessing or if you _knew_, and thus
I questioned whether or not you were right. Once I was certain that
this was something you knew to be true, I worried at it until I
understood it.

It wasn't so much that I thought it could be done, it was that I
wanted to understand the mechanism that prevented it. Once I
determined the relationship between pressure, electrolysis energy
costs, bubble lifting energy, and Boyle's Law, I got it.

I'm afraid that while I am very good at physics, I have always been a
bit deficient in chemistry (relatively speaking, that is). In this
case, I forgot the relationship between pressure and chemistry
influence each other, and even worse, forgot Boyle's Law. The first
was bad, the second just makes me feel stupid.:P

<snip>
> >Hmm. You seemed uncertain about this in your first posts.
>
> I usually check my mail after work. I sometimes am not quite out of
the fog.
> (Hopefully I'm doing a bit better this morning. :)
>
> Also, I don't like making strongly assertive statements without some
precise
> examples. Call it conservatism.

I understand. I try to avoid the same myself.

<snip>
> >Thermodynamics states that, even in a perfect system, burning the
gas has to
> >give more energy than separating it out. However, assuming a
perfect system,
> >that difference is small.
>
> A curious interpretation of thermodynamics. Which law do you base
that
> conclusion on?

Sorry. I typed that backwards. Thermodynamics states that, even in a
perfect system, burning gas has to give _less_ energy than separating
it out. My bad.

<snip>
>
> >Maybe. But are you _sure_ it is there, and in the necessary
proportions to
> >make this device impossible? There could be other flaws in this
model, you
> >know. It isn't necessary for you to be right for the model to fail.
> >
> >However, I may have discovered the missing link that allows your
theory to
> >prevail. More on this later.
>
> And I apologize for not being more specific earlier. Sometimes you
just want
> to say "I know" and be done with it, but that's not very productive.
:)

Thanks for the help.

When I deal with physics, I tend to work by models in my head. Nuclear
collision reactions, relativity, etc., all make sense once I have the
forces more or less straight in my head. If I hadn't been bored by
incompetent physics teachers, and, largely as a direct result, with
the mathematics, I'd be sitting somewhere with a PhD in physics.

Thus, what I really needed to know was:

A) Does electrolysis take more energy at depth in proportion to the
energy? (It does.)

B) Is it proportional to the energy created by the rising bubbles, so
that it always takes more energy than rising bubbles give? (It is.).

and

C) Preferably, why? (Not only is there an increased energy cost in the
electrolysis as pressure increases, but, because of Boyle's Law, the
bubble will have less lift the greater the pressure in the liquid, due
to its being compressed.)

Thanks to you, I have it. Once I knew you were certain about A), I
worked with it until I had the mechanism for B, and thus obtained C.

Thanks for the help, and hopefully I can be a bit clearer in the
future.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18635
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 02:40:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Lunar Tourism Already Exists?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I've heard this one before, I'm almost certain it is an urban legend. If I
can find something on this, I'll post it. Remember, NASA (note correct
spelling, they keep calling it Nasa) astronauts were retrieved by military
transport, so there was no need to pass through Customs. Besides, what about
Apollo 12, 14, 15, etc? Where are their Customs forms?

And no sources...

--
WJaKe

http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake

"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote
> http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_213538.html?menu=
>
> If the link doesn't work, add the equals sign to the address in your
> browser.
>
> Filksinger
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18636
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 09:50:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a9712e9.0@news.sff.net>, Filksinger writes...
> 
> "MidnightBlu" <MidnightBlu@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3a95de31.0@news.sff.net...
> > I`m desparate to know asap where Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
> is
> > mentioned in Stranger In A Strange Land. Any help would be appreciated.
> 
> Kiri-Kin-Tha's First Law of Metaphysics
> "Nothing Unreal Exists"

What about unicorns?  I have even seen pictures of them.

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18637
From: SynABit@kc.invalid (Dennis Doms)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 15:24:22 GMT
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a98858f.0@news.sff.net>, "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
wrote:

>You are, of course, correct. My knowledge of the factors in question
>is not only limited, but I have been way too many years from my last
>physics or chemistry class to do this correctly.

I'm a long way out, too, and I'm sure I've missed some minor points. But one
of my strengths was physical chemistry where you have to think of _everything_
involved, so I still can regurgitate a bit. :)

>Your posts have now given me enough information that I see the
>relationship clearly now. Since I know the relationship, the math,
>though interesting, is no longer necessary.

Cool. And again, I apologize for not putting more effort into the answer at
the start.

>In the case of the thought experiments between Einstein and Bohr, it
>was generally the case that Bohr needed merely point out the flaw in
>the experiment. Einstein would propose a method to determine a
>particle's energy at a time when it could only be in one location.
>Bohr would then point out that the mass of the measuring device would
>change during the experiment, causing the location to change. They
>didn't need the math (though they both knew it), Bohr just pointed out
>that even with perfect instruments, the experiment would inevitably
>fail.

One of the things I marvel at is the intuition Einstein had to notice that
Maxwell's(?) equations for properties of light never had a term for the speed
of the light source. Which led to his premise that light had a constant
velocity independent of the source, which led to the theories of relativity.

[That's from distant memory, and I hope it's somewhat accurate since I didn't
re-confirm.]

>I understand. And you are correct, that is roughly what is happening
>here. I was undertain if you were guessing or if you _knew_, and thus
>I questioned whether or not you were right. Once I was certain that
>this was something you knew to be true, I worried at it until I
>understood it.

Well, I sort of consider it guessing unless I work out the hard math, and on a
physical system even that may not be 100% accurate if you miss something
(e.g., the theoretical proof that a bee can't fly). But hopefully I've been
able to demonstrate it's an _educated_ guess. :)

>I'm afraid that while I am very good at physics, I have always been a
>bit deficient in chemistry (relatively speaking, that is). In this
>case, I forgot the relationship between pressure and chemistry
>influence each other, and even worse, forgot Boyle's Law. The first
>was bad, the second just makes me feel stupid.:P

Don't. I've had (many dim years ago) both engineering physics and a bunch of
chemistry and math. This model requires some pretty intimate knowledge of both
physics and chemistry (including reaction thermodynamics), and if I hadn't had
physical chemistry I would have been lost. And to give you an idea how hard
physical chemistry can be, as I recall my class started with maybe 27 students
and only three made it through the final. (A large chunk dropped out about two
weeks into the class when the professor threw some math terms on the board
that most didn't recognize. Unfortunately, the school only _required_ two
semesters calculus and regular physics classes prior to taking the class,
which wasn't really enough.)

In any case, this turned out to be phun, once I got the cobwebs cleared enough
to see the problem. :)

>Filksinger

 --
Dennis Doms  SynABit@kc.invalid  http://home.earthlink.net/~chemsleuth
[replace "invalid" with "rr.com" for valid mail]

  "It doesn't matter if we turn to dust; turn and turn and turn we must
         I guess I'll see you, dancing in the ruins tonight..."
	                 -- Blue Oyster Cult

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18638
From: SpaceCadet <cdozo@hotmail.com_delete_this>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:42:23 -0600
Subject: Re: Old Song Sheet Music--"The Love Nest
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



JT wrote:
> 
> OK, a friend's mother  is putting on a play at
> their senior trailer park in Florida.  She'd like to have the music to
> an old song so she can play it on the piano.
> 
> The song was used as the opening theme song for the old 1950's TV show
> "Burns and Allen" featuring the comedian George Burns and his wife
> Gracie Allen.

JT,

http://www.melodylane.net/lovenest.html has the words and an
audio clip of the tune.

Carol

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18639
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:12:15 GMT
Subject: Re: Old Song Sheet Music--"The Love Nest
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:42:23 -0600, SpaceCadet
<cdozo@hotmail.com_delete_this> wrote:

>http://www.melodylane.net/lovenest.html has the words and an
>audio clip of the tune.
>
>Carol

You da woman!  I admit I was too lazy to do websearching on my own
first, relying on my friend's first attempt and the odds that someone
hear had a jones for very old TV themes <G>.  And now you've gone and
found it!  It's not sheet music, but maybe if my friend's mom has
access to a PC she can learn it by ear. ;)

Thanks!

JT

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18640
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:12:15 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:38:44 -0500, Gordon G. Sollars
<gsollars@pobox.com> wrote:

>In article <3a98500e.265956955@news.sff.net>, JT writes...
>...
>> I think the *intent* also plays a strong part.  I am an organ donor,
>
>Which one?  ;-)
>
>-- 
Wiseass. OK, replace it with "I am an organs donor (anything they
want)..." 

;)

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18641
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:23:01 GMT
Subject: Re: Old Song Sheet Music--"The Love Nest
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I also just found sheet music for sale via a "fake book" available for
purchase online.  Thanks to all!

JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18642
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:00:18 -0500
Subject: Re: A Story I Cannot Remember Clearly
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Filksinger wrote:

> In eighth or ninth grade, about 20 years ago, I read a story that I recall
> as being about K2. <snip> ...owned an ice axe (is that the correct term?)

Never done any climbing myself, but for some reason I can't quite figure out, I
love reading about it. I can confirm that "ice axe" is the correct term. Beyond
that, this story doesn't ring any bells... but it *ought* to be true, even if
it isn't.

You might check your local outdoor outfitters' shop. They usually have a book
section, and I've seen (but not yet read) at least one book entirely devoted to
stories of climbing on K2. Even if your story is't in there, should be a good
read.

-JovBill



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18643
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:06:55 -0500
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a993cb4.326538878@news.sff.net>, JT writes...
> On Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:38:44 -0500, Gordon G. Sollars
> <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote:
> 
> >In article <3a98500e.265956955@news.sff.net>, JT writes...
> >...
> >> I think the *intent* also plays a strong part.  I am an organ donor,
> >
> >Which one?  ;-)
> >
> >-- 
> Wiseass. OK, replace it with "I am an organs donor (anything they
> want)..." 

It wasn't the plural/singular issue I was joking about - it was the 
potential/actual that I had in mind.  ;-)


-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18644
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:46:42 -0500
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Deb Houdek Rule wrote:

>   I had an interesting epiphany moment yesterday....

Your epiphany ties into something I'm currently reading. Currently being
*required* to read, actually: My beloved wife's latest Big Thing To Worry
Obsessively About is mad cow disease (aka bovine spongiform
encephalopathy, or BSE), and she's forcing me to read a book on the
subject (i.e., she's literally holding other books I *want* to read
hostage) called _Mad Cow U.S.A._. So far I find the book manipulative and
filled with subtle anti-science bias, but I haven't finished it, and am
withholding final judgment on the theories advanced 'til I've read the
whole story. But there are several points of connection with your post:

1. Creutzfeld-Jakob Disease (the putative human manifestation of BSE) can
be transmitted by, among other avenues, organ transplantation, which one
researcher is quoted in the book as calling "high-tech cannibalism." I
don't think the quote is meant to condemn organ transplantation; only to
make the connection WRT taking other human tissue into the body.

2. A similar disease (some say it's the *same* disease) called kuru
definitely *is* (was, actually, as it's largely been eradicated)
transmitted by human cannibalism among the Fore tribes of Papua New
Guinea. (Those of you who've read the Niven/Pournelle/Barnes book _Dream
Park_ will remember this fact.)

3. The presumed (fairly well established, I think) mechanism for the
spread of BSE in the cattle population is the practice of including
rendered cattle byproducts, including fats, meat, and bone meal, in the
cattle's feed. This practice the book decries as "turning cattle into
cannibals" (never mind that the byproducts are by all accounts *highly*
processed; it's not like feeding Bossie a filet mignon), quoting no less
an authority than Oprah Winfrey on how instictively disgusting it is.
(This is the opinion that got Oprah in such hot water with ranchers a few
years back.) In its Foreword, the book says "Even in the absence of
science, common sense tells us that this practice of turning normally
vegetarian cows into cannibals is a bad idea." (OWTTE) I say poppycock!
Some of you may agree with the sentiment expressed, and the science may
ultimately prove that using beef byproducts in cattle feed *is* a bad
idea, because it spreads a particular disease, but my soul naturally
rebels against any sentence that begins: "Even in the absence of science,
common sense tells us...." The implicit suggestion that science and
common sense are in opposition is, IMHO, both unjustified and
dangerous... dangerous in the sense that it's the sort of sentiment that
leads otherwise extraordinarily careful parents, for example, to deny
their children life-saving immunizations. In this case, I think the
"common sense" the authors are referring to here is really
anthropomorphism: To the extent that bovine "cannibalism" instinctively
disgusts us, it's because *human* cannibalism digusts us. But the analogy
logically breaks down when you consider that we're perfectly happy to
think of cows as *food* (well, I am, anyway; I think this book I'm
reading has an unspoken anti-meat agenda). The reasons for the taboo
against human cannibalism are moral and social: If we're going to think
of cows as having souls and the kinds of social interactions that would
give rise to those sorts of concerns, we shouldn't be eating them in the
first place; if not, the only concern we should have about what we feed
them is for what's good for their health, economic value, and safety as a
food source.

Whew... more than you bargained for, eh Deb? Sorry 'bout that... and
thanks to the group for letting me vent. 8^)

BTW, JOOC, does anybody know if "cannibalism" (i.e., animals eating the
carcasses of the same species) routinely occurs in the wild? Just
wondering...

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18645
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:02:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Lunar Tourism Already Exists?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



"William J. Keaton" wrote:

> I've heard this one before, I'm almost certain it is an urban legend.

Strikes me as more likely to be true, but of no particular import: I can
imagine someone thinking it would be a cute stunt to have the Apollo 11 crew
sign a Customs declaration, just as a curiosity/publicity gag, much in the same
way that a big (funny) deal is sometimes made about astronauts voting absentee
or getting extensions of the income tax filing deadline.

> Remember, NASA (note correct
> spelling, they keep calling it Nasa)

This in itself is no evidence: Speaking as an occasional editor of NASA-bound
documents, I can tell you that a surprising number of knowledgeable folks spell
it this way (I think it's especially common among Brits, and I believe the
article in question was from a British source... note the term "holiday" where
an American would say "vacation").

> there was no need to pass through Customs. Besides, what about
> Apollo 12, 14, 15, etc? Where are their Customs forms?

Both objections answered by my theory above. Of course, it still may be an
"urban legend," but if so, it's a pretty lame one: Aside from a moment's
amusement, what difference would it make if this were true? Usually urban
legends are a bit more dramatic.

I'd be curious to know if your research turns up anything.

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18646
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:26:09 -0500
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3A998B4F.42CDBA51@ix.netcom.com>, Bill Dauphin writes...
....
> 2. A similar disease (some say it's the *same* disease) called kuru
> definitely *is* (was, actually, as it's largely been eradicated)
> transmitted by human cannibalism among the Fore tribes of Papua New
> Guinea. (Those of you who've read the Niven/Pournelle/Barnes book _Dream
> Park_ will remember this fact.)

Bill, without implying I doubt Dauphin/Niven/Pournelle/Barnes in any 
fundamental way, can you point to the conclusive evidence that kuru is 
transmitted by cannibalism?  I thought that there was still some 
disagreement on this.  

-- 
Gordon "Fryin' won't kill a prion" Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18647
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:13:36 -0500
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



"Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:

> Bill, without implying I doubt Dauphin/Niven/Pournelle/Barnes in any
> fundamental way, can you point to the conclusive evidence that kuru is
> transmitted by cannibalism?

Actually, I can't. The novel simply asserted it as fact, which is no evidence
(despite my general respect for Niven, et al.); the nonfic book I'm currently
reading presents as evidence the (alleged) fact that kuru -- which was
apparently so severe at one point that the Fore were on the point of
extinction -- rapidly dwindled and eventually virtually disappeared after the
(Australian) colonial government cracked down on the practice of cannibalism.
OTOH, I've already expressed my skepticism about this particular book, so I
wouldn't go to bat too strongly in its defense.

> I thought that there was still some
> disagreement on this.

Mebbe so. As I say, I'm not at all convinced that I'm getting a balanced view
from my source reading. That said, Nobel Prize winning kuru researcher
Carleton Gadjusek (sp?), upon whom the book leans quite heavily, seems to be
*totally* convinced that cannibalism is (was) the primary, if not the sole,
means of transmission. If you have information to the contrary, I'd love to
hear it... since one of my current missions in life is to convince my wife
that this book is nothing but overblown hype, and she shouldn't lay awake at
night worrying that we're all going to die of mad cow disease sometime
between next Thursday and 40 years from now!

-JovBill



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18648
From: debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 05:28:57 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>> 2. A similar disease (some say it's the *same* disease) called kuru
>> definitely *is* (was, actually, as it's largely been eradicated)
>> transmitted by human cannibalism among the Fore tribes of Papua New
>> Guinea. (Those of you who've read the Niven/Pournelle/Barnes book _Dream
>> Park_ will remember this fact.)

  I don't recall the name of the disease but human cannibalism is a
bad idea, particularly the eating of brain tissue, because it causes,
or passes on, a degenerative nerve disorder. Does sound a lot like the
human equivalent of mad cow disease. After reading "Dream Park" I
spent some time reading about the New Guinea cannibals, but that was a
while ago. The disease wasn't unique to them but, I believe, was found
anywhere human cannibalism was--one theory behind the decimation of
the Easter Island population. 


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18649
From: debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 05:28:57 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>BTW, JOOC, does anybody know if "cannibalism" (i.e., animals eating the
>carcasses of the same species) routinely occurs in the wild? Just
>wondering...

 Depends on the species (I've seen _lots_ of nasty PBS nature shows in
the past couple years <g>). Of course, starvation is a powerful
motivator to overcome both taboos as well as the (possibly) hardwired
reactions animals may have against eating their own kind.

Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18650
From: debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 05:28:57 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>I think the *intent* also plays a strong part.  I am an organ donor,
>and if my wife were to receive any of my body parts if I died prior to
>her and she needed them, she would still never be Hannibal Lecter. <G>

  The 'donors' in human cannibalism situtations are sometimes
voluntary. Sometimes they're just conveniently dead (and presumably
past caring). Does it change it if the donor of dinner is a volunteer?


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18651
From: debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 05:31:25 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>So depending on which meaning you're going for, you're right, or I
>strongly disagree with you. ;)

  Depends, too, on whether you're having a strong "cannibalism is
wrong" reaction or not. 

  I certainly have an "oh, yuck" reaction but, trying to think it
through without that, I don't know... 

Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18652
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 08:05:31 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:12:15 GMT, JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT) wrote:

>Wiseass. OK, replace it with "I am an organs donor (anything they
>want)..." 

Guess that must be where the "Org Gifted" went to.<BFG,D&R>

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18653
From: Shane Glaseman <Shane.Glaseman@aero.org>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 09:13:09 -0800
Subject: Re: Lunar Tourism Already Exists?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Um... why would Michael Collins need to sign a declaration? He never
left US territory.

"William J. Keaton" wrote:
> 
> I've heard this one before, I'm almost certain it is an urban legend. If I
> can find something on this, I'll post it. Remember, NASA (note correct
> spelling, they keep calling it Nasa) astronauts were retrieved by military
> transport, so there was no need to pass through Customs. Besides, what about
> Apollo 12, 14, 15, etc? Where are their Customs forms?
> 
> And no sources...
> 
> --
> WJaKe
> 
> http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake
> 
> "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote
> > http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_213538.html?menu=
> >
> > If the link doesn't work, add the equals sign to the address in your
> > browser.
> >
> > Filksinger
> >
> >

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18654
From: lal_truckee@my-deja.com
Date: 26 Feb 2001 18:36:45 GMT
Subject: Re: Is copyright alright?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Did Francis Bacon have any decendants?

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18655
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 13:44:16 -0500
Subject: Re: Lunar Tourism Already Exists?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote ...
>
>
> "William J. Keaton" wrote:
>
> > I've heard this one before, I'm almost certain it is an urban legend.
>
> Strikes me as more likely to be true, but of no particular import: I can
> imagine someone thinking it would be a cute stunt to have the Apollo 11
crew
> sign a Customs declaration, just as a curiosity/publicity gag,

Yes, I had forgotten that aspect. And Shane Glassman brought up the question
about Michael Collins, who never left the capsule.

>
> > Remember, NASA (note correct
> > spelling, they keep calling it Nasa)
>
> This in itself is no evidence:

I know, but it's annoying as heck! <g>

>
> > there was no need to pass through Customs. Besides, what about
> > Apollo 12, 14, 15, etc? Where are their Customs forms?
>
> Both objections answered by my theory above. Of course, it still may be an
> "urban legend," but if so, it's a pretty lame one: Aside from a moment's
> amusement, what difference would it make if this were true? Usually urban
> legends are a bit more dramatic.

Like the one about NASA (or Nasa) faking the moon landings. Anybody see that
awful TV show a couple of weeks ago?

>
> I'd be curious to know if your research turns up anything.

It turned up a lot of things, urban legends are a black hole into which time
gets rapidly sucked. But nothing about Apollo Customs forms. <g>

--
WJaKe

http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18656
From: lal_truckee@my-deja.com
Date: 26 Feb 2001 18:47:47 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

>  I had an interesting epiphany moment yesterday. We were running a
>piece on the Donner party. One of the descendants commented that the
>cannibalism of the Donner party was something he thought of as being
>like organ donation--the people were dead and their body parts would
>save the living.

Ahhh. Home town history! Good premise, except the Donner party also killed
and ate two Indians. This happened in one of the small parties that attempted
to cross the pass and seek rescue, accompanied by the Indians who had volunteered
to assist.

Desperation does strange things.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18657
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:04:22 -0800
Subject: Re: Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1502e5a64172958398975e@news.sff.net...
> In article <3a9712e9.0@news.sff.net>, Filksinger writes...
> >
> > "MidnightBlu" <MidnightBlu@home.com> wrote in message
> > news:3a95de31.0@news.sff.net...
> > > I`m desparate to know asap where Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of
Metaphysics
> > is
> > > mentioned in Stranger In A Strange Land. Any help would be
appreciated.
> >
> > Kiri-Kin-Tha's First Law of Metaphysics
> > "Nothing Unreal Exists"
>
> What about unicorns?  I have even seen pictures of them.

Are they real or unreal? If they are real, then the First Law of Metaphysics
doesn't apply. If they are unreal, then I suspect that the pictures are
either fictional or faked, depending upon whether or not they were
photographs or artistic representations. Of course, I have no actual proof
that photographs cannot be taken of non-existent things without being faked,
so I could be wrong.

See how easy that is?:)

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18658
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 12:14:09 -0800
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3A998B4F.42CDBA51@ix.netcom.com...

> BTW, JOOC, does anybody know if "cannibalism" (i.e., animals eating the
> carcasses of the same species) routinely occurs in the wild? Just
> wondering...

It is 'routine' only in a very few species. For example, there is a genus of
African frog that routinely eats its own young, though typically only when
nothing else is available. It apparently is carnivorous, while its young are
herbivorous. When trapped in small pools for an extended period of time, the
only way for the adults to live is by getting energy from the alge of the
pond, and the only mechanism available is eating their own young which eat
the alge.

Generally, no, it is very rare.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18659
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 17:05:30 -0500
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Filksinger wrote:

>
> It is 'routine' only in a very few species. For example, there is a genus of
> African frog that routinely eats its own young, though typically only when
> nothing else is available. It apparently is carnivorous, while its young are
> herbivorous. When trapped in small pools for an extended period of time, the
> only way for the adults to live is by getting energy from the alge of the
> pond, and the only mechanism available is eating their own young which eat
> the alge.
>
>

Wasn't that used in Niven and Pournelle's Heorot story? The grendel ate her
children too and the memory of the frogs gave the colonists the clue they
needed.

Jane



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18660
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 14:55:14 -0800
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.150396d81c597a71989761@news.sff.net...
> In article <3A998B4F.42CDBA51@ix.netcom.com>, Bill Dauphin writes...
> ...
> > 2. A similar disease (some say it's the *same* disease) called kuru
> > definitely *is* (was, actually, as it's largely been eradicated)
> > transmitted by human cannibalism among the Fore tribes of Papua New
> > Guinea. (Those of you who've read the Niven/Pournelle/Barnes book _Dream
> > Park_ will remember this fact.)
>
> Bill, without implying I doubt Dauphin/Niven/Pournelle/Barnes in any
> fundamental way, can you point to the conclusive evidence that kuru is
> transmitted by cannibalism?  I thought that there was still some
> disagreement on this.

There may be disagreement, but the evidence is pretty solid.

The practice of eating pieces of the brains of the dead among the Fore
people of New Guinea was a practice whereby women and children would honor
the dead of their own families. The pattern of the practice matches almost
exactly the pattern of kuru. Persons who were members of the Fore could get
it long after they left, and persons who joined the Fore by marriage could
get it. It travelled by families, but it apparently travelled via family by
marriage about as easily as by blood. When cannibalism was outlawed, the
incidence went down. Since 1962, when it is believed the practice of
canniballism finally ended, no new cases in children have been seen. The
persons with the disease are growing rarer and rarer, and are always old
enough to have been part of the practice of canniballism before 1962.

As a final bit of evidence, giving the brain tissue of persons who died of
kuru to chimpanzees gives the chimpanzees kuru.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18661
From: lal_truckee@my-deja.com
Date: 26 Feb 2001 23:21:37 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Filksinger wrote:
> 
> "Gordon G. Sollars"  wrote in message
> news:MPG.150396d81c597a71989761@news.sff.net...

> > can you point to the conclusive evidence that kuru is
> > transmitted by cannibalism?  I thought that there was still some
> > disagreement on this.
> 
> There may be disagreement, but the evidence is pretty solid.
> 
> The practice of eating pieces of the brains of the dead among the Fore
> people of New Guinea was a practice whereby women and children would honor
> the dead of their own families. The pattern of the practice matches almost
> exactly the pattern of kuru. Persons who were members of the Fore could
get
> it long after they left, and persons who joined the Fore by marriage could
> get it. It travelled by families, but it apparently travelled via family
by
> marriage about as easily as by blood. When cannibalism was outlawed, the
> incidence went down. Since 1962, when it is believed the practice of
> canniballism finally ended, no new cases in children have been seen. The
> persons with the disease are growing rarer and rarer, and are always old
> enough to have been part of the practice of canniballism before 1962.
> 
> As a final bit of evidence, giving the brain tissue of persons who died
of
> kuru to chimpanzees gives the chimpanzees kuru.

I think it's time to throw out a couple of anecdotes. 

This topic came up in dinner conversation (sic) with a Fijian friend, who
realized on the spot that a pejorative used by kids against each other in
her village ("nah nah you have the brain disease") may have historical origins
in a kuru like actual disease.

But here's one of her family anecdotes (probably apocryphal) that I like
immensely: Her grandfather, who was a high tribal official, was aboard a
British liner; the proper Brit passengers were avoiding the savage native,
and making pointed comments behind his back. So one evening in the dining
hall he, sitting alone as always he loudly, so all could hear, asked the
steward for the menu. When the menu was presented, he perused it shortly,
then called the steward back over and loudly proclaimed "I'm sorry; I didn't
mean the menu, I meant the passenger list."

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18662
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:51:00 -0800
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


<lal_truckee@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:3a9ae501.0@news.sff.net...
<snip>
> But here's one of her family anecdotes (probably apocryphal) that I like
> immensely: Her grandfather, who was a high tribal official, was aboard a
> British liner; the proper Brit passengers were avoiding the savage native,
> and making pointed comments behind his back. So one evening in the dining
> hall he, sitting alone as always he loudly, so all could hear, asked the
> steward for the menu. When the menu was presented, he perused it shortly,
> then called the steward back over and loudly proclaimed "I'm sorry; I
didn't
> mean the menu, I meant the passenger list."

I like it.<BEG>

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18663
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 16:53:39 -0800
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"ddavitt" <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:3A9AD32A.42C05A3C@netcom.ca...
> Filksinger wrote:
>
> >
> > It is 'routine' only in a very few species. For example, there is a
genus of
> > African frog that routinely eats its own young, though typically only
when
> > nothing else is available. It apparently is carnivorous, while its young
are
> > herbivorous. When trapped in small pools for an extended period of time,
the
> > only way for the adults to live is by getting energy from the alge of
the
> > pond, and the only mechanism available is eating their own young which
eat
> > the alge.
> >
> >
>
> Wasn't that used in Niven and Pournelle's Heorot story? The grendel ate
her
> children too and the memory of the frogs gave the colonists the clue they
> needed.

Yes, it was. This particular African frog was told about to Niven by a
biologist who was given a namesake in the story. The namesake was also a
biologist, but, because of a failure of the cryogenic process the colonists
had undergone, was brain damaged and thus could not warn the colonists that
what they saw as good reason for liking their island were actually clues to
their great danger.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18664
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 02:41:11 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 05:28:57 GMT, debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
wrote:
>
>>I think the *intent* also plays a strong part.  I am an organ donor,
>>and if my wife were to receive any of my body parts if I died prior to
>>her and she needed them, she would still never be Hannibal Lecter. <G>
>
>  The 'donors' in human cannibalism situtations are sometimes
>voluntary. Sometimes they're just conveniently dead (and presumably
>past caring). Does it change it if the donor of dinner is a volunteer?
>
I had this strong picture of the "dish of the day" from _The
Restaurant at the End of the Universe_ <G>.

I was differentiating between offering myself as food (of which there
are many different sources and choices, usually) and offering a part
of my body to allow another human continue living a quality life (say,
restoring sight, or eliminating the need for constant dialysis).


>>So depending on which meaning you're going for, you're right, or I
>>strongly disagree with you. ;)
>
>  Depends, too, on whether you're having a strong "cannibalism is
>wrong" reaction or not. 
>
>  I certainly have an "oh, yuck" reaction but, trying to think it
>through without that, I don't know... 
>

In the "right" situation, I could see cannibalism of the eating sense
being your only option.

  I don't think I would kill or allow someone else to take their life
to open up a food source, but taking advantage of what may happen in
an extreme disaster situation may be your only choice.  Didn't the
Andes soccer team chronicled in _Alive!_ go through that scenario?
(Long time since I read the book....)


I don't think you really answered which 'meaning' of cannibalism
(eating vs. reuse) you were going for with the organ donor stuff, or
am I being obtuse?

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18665
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 02:42:18 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 08:05:31 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:

>On Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:12:15 GMT, JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT) wrote:
>
>>Wiseass. OK, replace it with "I am an organs donor (anything they
>>want)..." 
>
>Guess that must be where the "Org Gifted" went to.<BFG,D&R>
>
>Fader

Hey!  Nobody gets ANYTHING until I'm done with it. ;)

JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18666
From: debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 03:40:04 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>I don't think you really answered which 'meaning' of cannibalism
>(eating vs. reuse) you were going for with the organ donor stuff, or
>am I being obtuse?

  Ah, noticed that, did you? <g>  I think the border is too fuzzy to
make a distinction, or can be made too fuzzy. Picture this--an organ
donor situation, just like a heart transplant, that 'gift of life'
thing requiring the donor to be both dead and willing (pre-willing).
But the part being donated must be put into the recipient by that
person swallowing the donor material. Does passage of the material
through the mouth make a difference vs cutting the recipient open and
inserting the material in the stomach? 


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18667
From: Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 14:35:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3a9ab6a7.0@news.sff.net...
> > > Kiri-Kin-Tha's First Law of Metaphysics
> > > "Nothing Unreal Exists"
> > What about unicorns?  I have even seen pictures of them.

Pictures of unicorns exist and are real.  Unicorn's themselves are unreal
and do not exist.

What I want to know is does pi exist -- since it is real?  And does that
mean that the square root of negative 1 does not exist, since it is not real
but imaginary?

Frank Fujita



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18668
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 12:43:12 -0800
Subject: Re: Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu> wrote in message
news:3a9c017c.0@news.sff.net...
> "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
> news:3a9ab6a7.0@news.sff.net...
> > > > Kiri-Kin-Tha's First Law of Metaphysics
> > > > "Nothing Unreal Exists"
> > > What about unicorns?  I have even seen pictures of them.
>
> Pictures of unicorns exist and are real.  Unicorn's themselves are unreal
> and do not exist.

Remember how Heinlein reacted when his predictions of intelligent life on
Mars didn't pan out? Sorry, you're going to have to prove this one before I
give them up.

> What I want to know is does pi exist -- since it is real?  And does that
> mean that the square root of negative 1 does not exist, since it is not
real
> but imaginary?

Ah, but who says that it can't be both? Well, OK, if you stick to
mathematics, I suppose the exclusionary principle, but what about the more
general definition of imaginary? How do you know that unicorns, being
imaginary, do not exist? Didn't you read "Number of the Beast"?:)

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18669
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:42:05 -0800
Subject: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I have noticed of late that, at least among computer geeks, Cthulhu has
become very popular with a great many people who know almost nothing about
Cthulhu, and have never read H. P. Lovecraft.

So, I am curious. How many people on this list know of Cthulhu? How many
know what he was supposed to be, or that he was a creation of Lovecraft? And
how many actually read any Lovecraft?

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18670
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 00:09:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I first heard the term cthulu after listening to a radio program
called cthonic transmissions on KDVS (UC Davis radio station). I asked
Jim what Cthulu is and he enlightened me as to the basic "embodiment
of evil" idea. He told me who created Cthulu, but I didn't remember
Lovecraft in particular. I have never read Lovecraft.
>So, I am curious. How many people on this list know of Cthulhu? How many
>know what he was supposed to be, or that he was a creation of Lovecraft? And
>how many actually read any Lovecraft?

Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18671
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 16:30:37 -0800
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Bob Lawson" <bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com> wrote in message
news:3a9c4167.270343@news.sff.net...
> I first heard the term cthulu after listening to a radio program
> called cthonic transmissions on KDVS (UC Davis radio station). I asked
> Jim what Cthulu is and he enlightened me as to the basic "embodiment
> of evil" idea. He told me who created Cthulu, but I didn't remember
> Lovecraft in particular. I have never read Lovecraft.

In a strange way he is overhyped. While he is horrible and evil, he isn't
the embodyment himself; he is the priest of something utterly unknown which
presumably is far worse.

He is the alien high priest of a cult far older than man. He is monsterous
in size, horribly powerful and drives men who look upon him to insanity or
death by fear. What his purpose or cult truly is, no one knows, since none
of his worshipers have ever seen him, but it is believed that he talks to
them with his thoughts while he lays in hybernation, and promises a
worldwide orgy of depravity and murder when he awakens and is freed by his
cultists, "when the stars are right". What he worships is unknown, but the
evidence is that it is truly horrible indeed.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18672
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:48:34 GMT
Subject: Re: The New Cannibalism
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Tue, 27 Feb 2001 03:40:04 GMT, debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
wrote:

>
>>I don't think you really answered which 'meaning' of cannibalism
>>(eating vs. reuse) you were going for with the organ donor stuff, or
>>am I being obtuse?
>
>  Ah, noticed that, did you? <g>  I think the border is too fuzzy to
>make a distinction, or can be made too fuzzy. Picture this--an organ
>donor situation, just like a heart transplant, that 'gift of life'
>thing requiring the donor to be both dead and willing (pre-willing).
>But the part being donated must be put into the recipient by that
>person swallowing the donor material. Does passage of the material
>through the mouth make a difference vs cutting the recipient open and
>inserting the material in the stomach? 
>
IMO, it does not make a difference.  Since swallowing is less
obtrusive to the patient, it's probably preferred! 

What makes this different is the _intent_.  A is helping B, A is not
possibly causing harm to B.  Above the "ick factor" that is ingrained
in you & I *because it is societally taboo*,  there must be some ill
effects from consumption of human parts to make it such a taboo.

Otherwise why would consumption of human parts be icky but organ
donation not?   Maybe that's your point, but by the fact that it
*isn't* taboo to donate your organs (except for some religious
factions) it would seem to me that organ donation does NOT equal
cannibalism.

It's a bit of a circular proof, but hey. 

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18673
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 01:48:34 GMT
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:42:05 -0800, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:

>So, I am curious. How many people on this list know of Cthulhu? How many
>know what he was supposed to be, or that he was a creation of Lovecraft? And
>how many actually read any Lovecraft?
>
I know of Cthulhu only what I read in this thread.  I have read some
Lovecraft, but not extensively.  I think I read a story in one of my
Lit classes in college, but I am blanking on the theme or the name.

JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18674
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:50:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a9c113c.0@news.sff.net>, Filksinger writes...
....
> Ah, but who says that it can't be both? Well, OK, if you stick to
> mathematics, I suppose the exclusionary principle,

Well, constructivist mathematics disallows proof by contradiction.

> but what about the more
> general definition of imaginary? How do you know that unicorns, being
> imaginary, do not exist? Didn't you read "Number of the Beast"?:)

Unicorns certainly exist in the imagination.  So much for the "first 
law".  ;-)

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18675
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:50:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a9c017c.0@news.sff.net>, Frank Fujita writes...
.... 
> What I want to know is does pi exist -- since it is real?

Many mathematicians - such as Kurt Godel - are called "Platonists", that 
is, they think that numbers are real things.  The point is that numbers 
have a structure independent of what anyone thinks about them.  For 
example, if you "invent" natural numbers, you have simultaneously 
invented prime numbers - and the fact that there is no largest prime - 
whether you intended to or not.

>  And does that
> mean that the square root of negative 1 does not exist, since it is not real
> but imaginary?

Nope.  Even the imaginary numbers are real on the Platonic view - kinda 
complex, isn't it?  

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18676
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 20:50:30 -0500
Subject: Claude Shannon (1916-2001) - R.I.P.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I just learned from an NPR broadcast that one of the greatest stars in 
the computer science firmament has gone out over the weekend.  It would 
be nice to think that the information that is Claude Shannon remains 
coded somewhere...

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18677
From: Robert Slater" <rslater215@home.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 22:27:51 -0800
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I learned of Cthulhu from The Real Ghostbusters.  Now my 15 year old is into
Lovecraft and others writing in his universe.
Rob
Filksinger <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3a9c1f06.0@news.sff.net...
> I have noticed of late that, at least among computer geeks, Cthulhu has
> become very popular with a great many people who know almost nothing about
> Cthulhu, and have never read H. P. Lovecraft.
>
> So, I am curious. How many people on this list know of Cthulhu? How many
> know what he was supposed to be, or that he was a creation of Lovecraft?
And
> how many actually read any Lovecraft?
>
> Filksinger
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18678
From: Anthony Alford" <anthony_alford@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:10:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I learned of Cthulhu from two sources back in my high-school days:

1. The heavy-metal band Metallica had at least two songs that mentioned
things Lovecraftian:
On the _Ride the Lightning_ album, they had an instrumental song called
"Call of Ctulu."  I'm not sure if the spelling is an alternate found in
Lovecraft's books, or if it was introduced to avoid copyright problems.
Also, on their _Master of Puppets_ album, there was a song called "The Thing
That Should Not Be" that included such lyrics as:

"Not dead which eternal lie
Stranger eons Death may die"

Which is, IIRC, similar to a line somewhere in Lovecraft.

2. The game Advanced Dungeons & Dragons had a book called _Deities and
Demigods_ (which title I think they later changed to _Legends and Lore_,
probably because of accusations of promoting the occult) that contained
information about gods and goddesses from various ancient societies, such as
the Greeks, the Babylonians, the Celts, etc.  There were also some
characters from works of fiction such the Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser
stories, the Elric of Melnibone stories, and the Lovecraft stories.  There
was a bit of background on Cthulhu, as well as some other of Lovecraft's
monstrous creations.  I seem to recall the Necronomicon mentioned there as
well.

I got interested, so I found a collection of Lovecraft's short stories.  I
don't recall any Cthulhu stories in there; mostly stuff about death and
necrophilia and fun stuff like that.

"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3a9c1f06.0@news.sff.net...
> I have noticed of late that, at least among computer geeks, Cthulhu has
> become very popular with a great many people who know almost nothing about
> Cthulhu, and have never read H. P. Lovecraft.
>
> So, I am curious. How many people on this list know of Cthulhu? How many
> know what he was supposed to be, or that he was a creation of Lovecraft?
And
> how many actually read any Lovecraft?
>
> Filksinger
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18679
From: Anthony Alford" <anthony_alford@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 10:15:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Pun intended?

:)

"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.150619cca31f35f0989763@news.sff.net...
> Nope.  Even the imaginary numbers are real on the Platonic view - kinda
> complex, isn't it?
>
> --
> Gordon Sollars
> gsollars@pobox.com



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18680
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:35:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Kari-Kan-Kin's first law of Metaphysics
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Frank Fujita wrote:

> What I want to know is does pi exist -- since it is real?

That's a pretty irrational question to ask, don't you think?

<GD&RLH>

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18681
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:43:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Filksinger wrote:

> I have noticed of late that, at least among computer geeks, Cthulhu has
> become very popular with a great many people who know almost nothing about
> Cthulhu, and have never read H. P. Lovecraft.
>
> So, I am curious. How many people on this list know of Cthulhu? How many
> know what he was supposed to be, or that he was a creation of Lovecraft? And
> how many actually read any Lovecraft?

I know that I've heard the name, and I knew he was a creation of Lovecraft, but
I also know that I've never read Lovecraft, so I conclude that I don't know
anything about Cthulhu (including how to pronounce it!). Does this diqualify me
from becoming a computer geek? ;^)

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18682
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 11:46:55 -0500
Subject: Re: Claude Shannon (1916-2001) - R.I.P.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Since my unwillingness to pretend I know Cthulhu when I don't has clearly
already blown my credentials as a computer geek <g>, I can ask a stupid
computer question without shame: Who was Claude Shannon, and how did he
earn his place in the firmament. I probably would've heard the answer on
NPR, except that I'm off work today, and thus missed my usual daily dose
of drive-time Morning Edition.

-JovBill

"Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:

> I just learned from an NPR broadcast that one of the greatest stars in
> the computer science firmament has gone out over the weekend.  It would
> be nice to think that the information that is Claude Shannon remains
> coded somewhere...
>
> --
> Gordon Sollars
> gsollars@pobox.com


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18683
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:51:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Filksinger wrote:

> I have noticed of late that, at least among computer geeks, Cthulhu has
> become very popular with a great many people who know almost nothing about
> Cthulhu, and have never read H. P. Lovecraft.
>
> So, I am curious. How many people on this list know of Cthulhu? How many
> know what he was supposed to be, or that he was a creation of Lovecraft? And
> how many actually read any Lovecraft?
>
> Filksinger

I read some after the reference in NOTB; Zeb was a fan IIRC. I didn't like it
much. I also remember reading an Alan Dean Foster where the hero gets whizzed
around dimensions and one of them was a Lovecraftian one with weird monsters
sucking out brains and things. Not my cup of tea :-)

Jane



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18684
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:37:08 -0800
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3a9c588f.87550921@news.sff.net...
> On Tue, 27 Feb 2001 13:42:05 -0800, "Filksinger"
> <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>
> >So, I am curious. How many people on this list know of Cthulhu? How many
> >know what he was supposed to be, or that he was a creation of Lovecraft?
And
> >how many actually read any Lovecraft?
> >
> I know of Cthulhu only what I read in this thread.  I have read some
> Lovecraft, but not extensively.  I think I read a story in one of my
> Lit classes in college, but I am blanking on the theme or the name.

It could have been one of many, but the only story of which I am aware that
he wrote mentioning Cthulhu in any detail was "Call of Cthulhu", which was
also the name of a role-playing game by Chaosium Games. Most gamers I know
know of Cthulhu strictly because of this game.

I don't know much, myself. I'm not really a horror fan, though if i was, his
might have been pretty good. I do get a bit of a bad taste in my mouth from
the racism in the story Call of Cthulhu myself. Worshipers of Cthulhu cults
were made up mostly of "mongrels", "Negroes", "mulatoes", and "half-breeds",
and the description seemed to indicate that this was one of the signs that
they were "debased".

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18685
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:38:00 -0800
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Robert Slater" <rslater215@home.com> wrote in message
news:3a9c99d2.0@news.sff.net...
> I learned of Cthulhu from The Real Ghostbusters.

Collect Call of Cthulhu!

"Remember Gozzer? Well, Cthulhu makes him look like a Sunday school
teacher."

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18686
From: LORRITA  MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:32:31 -0800
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Read some Lovecraft and some pastiches of Lovecraft.  I'm not sure which
author pointed me at Lovecraft, King? Card? Spinrad?

--
Later,

`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3a9c1f06.0@news.sff.net...
> I have noticed of late that, at least among computer geeks, Cthulhu has
> become very popular with a great many people who know almost nothing about
> Cthulhu, and have never read H. P. Lovecraft.
>
> So, I am curious. How many people on this list know of Cthulhu? How many
> know what he was supposed to be, or that he was a creation of Lovecraft?
And
> how many actually read any Lovecraft?
>
> Filksinger
>
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18687
From: LORRITA  MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:42:17 -0800
Subject: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

For those who haven't heard, there was a 7.0 earthquake centered near
Olympia, WA about 10:55 this morning.

We felt it here 200 miles away.  Hanford is fine.  The Umatilla Army Depot
is fine.

I think there are three H-F members who live in the greater Seattle area,
Filksinger, bytor, and SIFI Rob.  The sooner we see their pixels the better
I'll feel.
--
Later,

`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18688
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:46:30 -0800
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Anthony Alford" <anthony_alford@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3a9d1598.0@news.sff.net...
> I learned of Cthulhu from two sources back in my high-school days:
>
> 1. The heavy-metal band Metallica had at least two songs that mentioned
> things Lovecraftian:
> On the _Ride the Lightning_ album, they had an instrumental song called
> "Call of Ctulu."  I'm not sure if the spelling is an alternate found in
> Lovecraft's books, or if it was introduced to avoid copyright problems.

Not sure myself. I do know that others who have refered to his books mention
alternate spellings, but often times stories in his universe mix up what he
wrote, what others wrote, and what people have said in reference to him, as
if it were all authentic.

Some of the stuff seems so serious as to be almost creepy. I recall the game
"Call of Cthulhu" had an essay, in which the author showed (assuming his
Arabic wasn't fake, which the parts I understood weren't) that key names in
Lovecraft's work were awfully similar to corrupt Arabic for things like,
"Worshipper of the Abnormal Ones" and "The Strange Ones are coming!"

> Also, on their _Master of Puppets_ album, there was a song called "The
Thing
> That Should Not Be" that included such lyrics as:
>
> "Not dead which eternal lie
> Stranger eons Death may die"
>
> Which is, IIRC, similar to a line somewhere in Lovecraft.

Very much like, "That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with long eons
even death may die." Also, the Old Ones were often referred to as "The
Strange Ones", or possibly "The Abnormal Ones".

> 2. The game Advanced Dungeons & Dragons had a book called _Deities and
> Demigods_ (which title I think they later changed to _Legends and Lore_,
> probably because of accusations of promoting the occult) that contained
> information about gods and goddesses from various ancient societies, such
as
> the Greeks, the Babylonians, the Celts, etc.  There were also some
> characters from works of fiction such the Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser
> stories, the Elric of Melnibone stories, and the Lovecraft stories.  There
> was a bit of background on Cthulhu, as well as some other of Lovecraft's
> monstrous creations.  I seem to recall the Necronomicon mentioned there as
> well.

I believe so. Cthulhu and the Necronomnicon are definitely Lovecraft's two
most famous creations. I do know that most gamers I know know all they know
about Lovecraft's work from "Call of Cthulhu", which is a great game if you
don't mind that your character will likely be dead or insane at the end of a
night's playing.

> I got interested, so I found a collection of Lovecraft's short stories.  I
> don't recall any Cthulhu stories in there; mostly stuff about death and
> necrophilia and fun stuff like that.

For a collection of most or all of his work, you can find it online at the
Lovecraft Library at http://www.gizmology.net/lovecraft/.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18689
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:52:13 -0800
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3A9D2AAE.787E1C0C@ix.netcom.com...
<snip>
>
> I know that I've heard the name, and I knew he was a creation of
Lovecraft, but
> I also know that I've never read Lovecraft, so I conclude that I don't
know
> anything about Cthulhu (including how to pronounce it!). Does this
diqualify me
> from becoming a computer geek? ;^)

I doubt it. I just was thinking that it was popular enough for comic strips
about Cthulhu sitting on a park bench, passing time until he devoured all
life, a couple of comics based upon Pokethulu: "Pikathulu, I choose you!"
"Pika-BLEARGH!", and bumperstickers and T-shirts (got one for Christmas)
"Vote for Cthulhu! Why settle for the lesser evil?", and asked a collegue
about it, only to discover that a cute baby-Cthulhu picture was her computer
desktop, and realized that a lot of the people I have worked with knew what
he was.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18690
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:54:05 -0800
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"ddavitt" <ddavitt@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:3A9D3A9F.90B4EA5B@netcom.ca...
> Filksinger wrote:
<snip>
>
> I read some after the reference in NOTB; Zeb was a fan IIRC.

And was very happy when he discovered the others weren't, and thus were
unlikely to end up facing Hastur, Cthulhu, or Shub-Niggurath.

> I didn't like it
> much.

Neither do I, but then I don't like most horror.

> I also remember reading an Alan Dean Foster where the hero gets whizzed
> around dimensions and one of them was a Lovecraftian one with weird
monsters
> sucking out brains and things. Not my cup of tea :-)

Expecially as a universe to visit.:)

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18691
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:53:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

LORRITA MORGAN wrote:

> For those who haven't heard, there was a 7.0 earthquake centered near
> Olympia, WA about 10:55 this morning.
>
> We felt it here 200 miles away.  Hanford is fine.  The Umatilla Army Depot
> is fine.
>
> I think there are three H-F members who live in the greater Seattle area,
> Filksinger, bytor, and SIFI Rob.  The sooner we see their pixels the better
> I'll feel.
>

I hope you're all fine. It seems to have caused very little damage to people
considering how strong it was. Interesting that Bill Gates was there at the
time. I don't know why I think it's interesting mind you....events don't need
famous people to make them real.

Jane



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18692
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:59:42 -0800
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"LORRITA MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3a9d71ab.0@news.sff.net...
> Read some Lovecraft and some pastiches of Lovecraft.  I'm not sure which
> author pointed me at Lovecraft, King? Card? Spinrad?

Might have been either. I haven't read that much Spinrad, and even less
King. I seem to recall that King did mention Lovecraft as being one of the
sources of his early interest in horror.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18693
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:02:35 -0800
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I'm fine. I am presently in Bellevue, which is due east of Seattle and about
50-60 miles north of the epicenter. My building swayed for about five
minutes (I'm on the sixth and top floor.)

My wife and kids were about 20 miles closer. They report that they had no
problems personally or at home, but that buildings in the area had lost
brick facades, downtown Kent had lost power, power mains had broken, and
such. I'm sure it is worse further south.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18694
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:07:05 -0800
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

BTW, bytor is slightly farther away than I am, so is almost certainly all
right.

Filksinger

"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3a9d7581.0@news.sff.net...
> I'm fine. I am presently in Bellevue, which is due east of Seattle and
about
> 50-60 miles north of the epicenter. My building swayed for about five
> minutes (I'm on the sixth and top floor.)
>
> My wife and kids were about 20 miles closer. They report that they had no
> problems personally or at home, but that buildings in the area had lost
> brick facades, downtown Kent had lost power, power mains had broken, and
> such. I'm sure it is worse further south.
>
> Filksinger
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18695
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:07:59 -0800
Subject: Re: Claude Shannon (1916-2001) - R.I.P.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Credited as the father of electronic communications. The first person to
apply Boolian algebra to the switching circuits in the telephone system.
Creator of the mathematical theory of communication.

Filksinger

"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3A9D2B7D.648277FD@ix.netcom.com...
> Since my unwillingness to pretend I know Cthulhu when I don't has clearly
> already blown my credentials as a computer geek <g>, I can ask a stupid
> computer question without shame: Who was Claude Shannon, and how did he
> earn his place in the firmament. I probably would've heard the answer on
> NPR, except that I'm off work today, and thus missed my usual daily dose
> of drive-time Morning Edition.
>
> -JovBill
>
> "Gordon G. Sollars" wrote:
>
> > I just learned from an NPR broadcast that one of the greatest stars in
> > the computer science firmament has gone out over the weekend.  It would
> > be nice to think that the information that is Claude Shannon remains
> > coded somewhere...
> >
> > --
> > Gordon Sollars
> > gsollars@pobox.com
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18696
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:16:14 -0800
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Here's a place where you can view a picture. Loads slow today for some
reason.
www.seattletimes.com

Filksinger

"LORRITA MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3a9d71ac.0@news.sff.net...
> For those who haven't heard, there was a 7.0 earthquake centered near
> Olympia, WA about 10:55 this morning.
>
> We felt it here 200 miles away.  Hanford is fine.  The Umatilla Army Depot
> is fine.
>
> I think there are three H-F members who live in the greater Seattle area,
> Filksinger, bytor, and SIFI Rob.  The sooner we see their pixels the
better
> I'll feel.
> --
> Later,
>
> `rita
> Almost live from Finley, WA.
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18697
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:29:51 -0800
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Here's more. http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/02/28/northwest.quake.03/

Filksinger

"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3a9d78b4.0@news.sff.net...
> Here's a place where you can view a picture. Loads slow today for some
> reason.
> www.seattletimes.com
>
> Filksinger
>
> "LORRITA MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:3a9d71ac.0@news.sff.net...
> > For those who haven't heard, there was a 7.0 earthquake centered near
> > Olympia, WA about 10:55 this morning.
> >
> > We felt it here 200 miles away.  Hanford is fine.  The Umatilla Army
Depot
> > is fine.
> >
> > I think there are three H-F members who live in the greater Seattle
area,
> > Filksinger, bytor, and SIFI Rob.  The sooner we see their pixels the
> better
> > I'll feel.
> > --
> > Later,
> >
> > `rita
> > Almost live from Finley, WA.
> >
> >
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18698
From: Dean White" <WhiteD@telepath.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:26:55 -0600
Subject: Icy bridges and Damn Fools
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

You would think that drivers should know by now that bridges freeze over
first and it's not like there haven't been enough warnings.   But here I
sit looking out over a 4 lane bridge and watched a dozen accidents and
twice as many near misses.  The only thing that's saved most of them is
antilock brakes.  Watched one huge trash truck go whipping back and forth
covering all 4 lanes before he regained control, luckily no other cars
were near or it would have been bad.

--
          Dean White
www.DeanWhite.net



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18699
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:54:46 -0800
Subject: Re: Icy bridges and Damn Fools
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Dean White" <WhiteD@telepath.com> wrote in message
news:3a9d8942.0@news.sff.net...
> You would think that drivers should know by now that bridges freeze over
> first and it's not like there haven't been enough warnings.   But here I
> sit looking out over a 4 lane bridge and watched a dozen accidents and
> twice as many near misses.  The only thing that's saved most of them is
> antilock brakes.  Watched one huge trash truck go whipping back and forth
> covering all 4 lanes before he regained control, luckily no other cars
> were near or it would have been bad.

Been there before. Glad you weren't snagged by one of those people. My wife
and I, before we were married, were in a car that stopped fine on a bridge
covered in mud from construction at a red light, but the car behind us hit
us, and the car behind them hit _them_. Her back never quite recovered.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18700
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:51:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3A9D7374.2EA7E934@netcom.ca>, ddavitt writes...
....
> I hope you're all fine. It seems to have caused very little damage to people
> considering how strong it was. Interesting that Bill Gates was there at the
> time. I don't know why I think it's interesting mind you

Gates was giving a presentation.  Did any Microsoft shareholders in the 
audience rush the stage to cover their investment?   ;-)

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18701
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:59:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Claude Shannon (1916-2001) - R.I.P.
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a9d76c5.0@news.sff.net>, Filksinger writes...
> Credited as the father of electronic communications. The first person to
> apply Boolian algebra to the switching circuits in the telephone system.
> Creator of the mathematical theory of communication.

Here are two short pieces that briefly expand on these points:

http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/ms/what/shannonday/work.html

http://www.lis.pitt.edu/~mbsclass/is2000/hall_of_fame/shannon.htm

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18702
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:11:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a9c1f06.0@news.sff.net>, Filksinger writes...
....
> So, I am curious. How many people on this list know of Cthulhu? How many
> know what he was supposed to be, or that he was a creation of Lovecraft? And
> how many actually read any Lovecraft?

I first ran into Cthulhu when I read Wilson & Shea's /Illuminatus!/ 
trilogy many years ago.  Wilson & Shea incorporate a number of elements 
from Lovecraft's universe into the book, and, at one point, one of the 
main characters has a meeting with Lovecraft.  I have never read any 
Lovecraft himself.

-- 
Gordon (fnord!) Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18703
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:28:25 -0800
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Filksinger wrote:

[snip]

> For a collection of most or all of his work, you can find it online at the
> Lovecraft Library at http://www.gizmology.net/lovecraft/.

When I finished reading "Magic, Inc." and "Waldo" the first time, around 1955,
I talked to the public librarian, asking her which authors I might find
somewhat like those works of Heinlein. She mentioned Lovecraft, and I read
through the four or five Lovecraft stories they then had in their catalogue
(cannot even remember which ones) and only vaguely remember them. I'm not even
sure I recalled the name Cthulhu before someone raised it a few years back in a
reading group meeting.

I've always wanted to re-read them, and read the entire body of his work.

Thank you for a lovely gift! It's book-marked.

David





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18704
From: georule" <georule@citlink.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:19:19 -0800
Subject: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Howdy All--

Deb & I are supporting (i.e. voting but not going) members of Worldcon this
year.  Hugo nominating ballots showed up today.  Don't know about Deb, but I
haven't actually read much fiction the last year.

So I'm going to allow the Forum to fill out my ballot for me, at least 4 in
each catagory (can do 5, but I reserve 1 of each for my own choice), and if
there are at least 5 different replies to this email I will consider the
results binding and it really will be a Forum vote.

I'm sure there are some new faces since last I was a regular, so you old
cobbers will have to warn me if any ringers try to vote on our ballot.
Forum members only eligible to vote, but relatively lenient on the
definition of member  --any one who has been at least a semi-regular
vistor/poster since 1992 (yeesh!)

Catagories:

Best Novel



Best Novella


Best Novelette


Best Short Story



Best Related Book (Might be an overwhelming favorite here<g>)


Best Dramatic Presentation


Best Professional Editor


Best Semiprozine


John W. Campbell Award


Retro Hugo for 1950



I will accept votes thru March 15, 2001.   One per customer.  Please vote by
replying to this message.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18705
From: georule" <georule@citlink.net>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:05:45 -0800
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


Emailed with Bytor this afternoon.  He's fine, and unimpressed with a 6.8.

"LORRITA MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3a9d71ac.0@news.sff.net...
> For those who haven't heard, there was a 7.0 earthquake centered near
> Olympia, WA about 10:55 this morning.
>
> We felt it here 200 miles away.  Hanford is fine.  The Umatilla Army Depot
> is fine.
>
> I think there are three H-F members who live in the greater Seattle area,
> Filksinger, bytor, and SIFI Rob.  The sooner we see their pixels the
better
> I'll feel.
> --
> Later,
>
> `rita
> Almost live from Finley, WA.
>
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18706
From: Deanna S. Higginbotham" <ke4lfg@amsat.org>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 04:55:14 -0600
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Filksinger--

    I remember that I went on a Lovecraft binge sometime in jr. high school,
and that Cthulhu was the major horror--god, demon or suchlike.  Since that
was over 30 years ago, and my interests have changed drastically (not to
mention that my memory was shot off in the war) I don't remember much else.
I have never had the desire to revisit Lovecraft.

    Funny how much more intruguing evil was at 14 than at 47.

-Dee2



Filksinger <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3a9c1f06.0@news.sff.net...
>
> So, I am curious. How many people on this list know of Cthulhu? How many
> know what he was supposed to be, or that he was a creation of Lovecraft?
And
> how many actually read any Lovecraft?




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18707
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 09:02:57 -0800
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

georule wrote:

> Emailed with Bytor this afternoon.

> He's fine,

Very happy to hear that! Very happy to hear everyone who drops from that area
in here is fine. Sorry to hear about the Starbuck's Coffee headquarters damage,
though, and that the presentation of Washington States answer to "Mr. Byrnes"
from The Simpsons' was interrupted. ["Macs rule" and all that silly obligatory
nonsense... ;-)].

> and unimpressed with a 6.8.

Tell him the big one will be around a 7.5 in Puget Sound. (We keep waiting for
something like that to hit Santa Monica bay.) It'll take out the little house
my wife sold a couple months back for her aunt's estate in Richmond Beach as
well. She's trying to decide whether to continue with her plans to fly up this
weekend to finish up a few details to close that probate estate or put
everything off for a couple of weeks. Does anyone in Seattle of the immediate
area know exactly how much of its normally scheduled traffic SEATAC is likely
to be handling by this Saturday? What's the name of the Niven-Pournelle novel
with the sufer going by Century City Towers on the tidal wave? Seriously,
though, most of my maternal grandfather's family that remained in Reggio,
Calabria, was killed in the tidal waves that resulted from an erruption and
quake of Etna around the turn of the 19th century. Hope nothing like that ever
hits anywhere near an inhabited area this century.

David M. Silver
The sometimes cranky voice from the former "Peoples' Republic of Santa Monica"
in "sunny Southern California" where it looks like it won't rain (er, "liquid
sunshine will not fall") for the first time in about three weeks today.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18708
From: Robert Slater" <rslater215@home.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:16:54 -0800
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

SIFI Rob was sitting at his desk doing writing research and didn't even
notice.  This is the second quake I haven't felt.  I guess it probably means
my house and surrounds are stable.  I live on a big rock, I think.
Thanks,
Rob
LORRITA MORGAN <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3a9d71ac.0@news.sff.net...
> For those who haven't heard, there was a 7.0 earthquake centered near
> Olympia, WA about 10:55 this morning.
>
> We felt it here 200 miles away.  Hanford is fine.  The Umatilla Army Depot
> is fine.
>
> I think there are three H-F members who live in the greater Seattle area,
> Filksinger, bytor, and SIFI Rob.  The sooner we see their pixels the
better
> I'll feel.
> --
> Later,
>
> `rita
> Almost live from Finley, WA.
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18709
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 14:58:25 -0500
Subject: Re: Strange email received...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT wrote:

>
> The most fun I ever had  in an HF discussion, discounting the Pun
> Wars, was over a religious topic, back on the old Prodigy-only "Arts
> Club BB".  Had a guy come in claiming to be a Reverend and saying
> silly things, and some people got really upset.  We ended up giving
> him the silent treatment, and he went away eventually.
>
> I wonder if BC or Tomstaafl still has copies of the "Tabnick" (his
> name) thread?  I would get a kick out of reading them again....
>
> We're too civil here these days to get really nasty. ;)
>
> JT

JT--
     I don't recall that we got really nasty back in those days.  I do recall
several exchanges that looked kind of intense -- but the people involved got
along great in person.  (Yes, I was one of them.)

     But I don't think my habit of keeping these posts had yet been established
at the Tabnick time.  I seem to recall that he got in trouble on more than just
our little group, though.  And we did have an exclude function back then.....

     I also recall the person who could not make up his/her mind what sex he/she
was but thought communism was a great program that had not just been done
correctly.
--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make
it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18710
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:01:01 -0500
Subject: Hi, Madge
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Hi, Madge--

     I've meant to look you up my last couple of trips to your area.
Can you E-Mail me with contact information?

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18711
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 12:06:16 -0800
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Oops, I forgot to say that I emailed bytor. Says the only damage was to his
monitor gargoyle.

Filksinger

"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3a9d768f.0@news.sff.net...
> BTW, bytor is slightly farther away than I am, so is almost certainly all
> right.
>
> Filksinger
>
> "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
> news:3a9d7581.0@news.sff.net...
> > I'm fine. I am presently in Bellevue, which is due east of Seattle and
> about
> > 50-60 miles north of the epicenter. My building swayed for about five
> > minutes (I'm on the sixth and top floor.)
> >
> > My wife and kids were about 20 miles closer. They report that they had
no
> > problems personally or at home, but that buildings in the area had lost
> > brick facades, downtown Kent had lost power, power mains had broken, and
> > such. I'm sure it is worse further south.
> >
> > Filksinger
> >
> >
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18712
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 12:07:45 -0800
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1507671144efc1e4989765@news.sff.net...
<snip>
> Gates was giving a presentation.  Did any Microsoft shareholders in the
> audience rush the stage to cover their investment?   ;-)

Saw the tape. No.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18713
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:40:12 -0500
Subject: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I'm going to launch a new thread here -- it is seeming a bit off
subject.

Filksinger wrote:

> We allow patents for 17 years, but we allow copyright for a century?
> There
> is something screwed up here.
>
> Filksinger

Filksinger--

     Amen brother.  But then again, a patent is simpler -- you agree to
share your technology in exchange for a period in which you have
exclusive control.  The alternative is marketing by trade secret.

     But in a society in which it can easily take ten years to market a
new drug a 17 year patent seems a bit short.

     A couple of asides here--

     The congresscritters are now talking of spending 2.5 billion
(that's a "B") on voting equipment updates.  At 2% -- no need for me to
think about buying just an estate in the Bahamas -- buy a whole island.

    But one trend I am highly in favor of  -- though it will not make me
a nickel -- is that people are looking at taking seriously vote fraud,
multiple registrations, graveyard votes, and so forth.  One of the most
frustrating aspects when I was researching my voting machine was that no
judges or investigative agencies had any concern about Chicago's
graveyard vote, Florida's NYC vote, fraud in mail in balloting systems,
or the thousands of college students who vote both at home and at
school.  It's time this was taken seriously.

     Marion County (Indiana; my home county) recently let a 5 million
dollar contract to replace their lever action voting machine with a
optical scanning system.  This hits close to home as my original goal
was to sell my machine here in this county at a projected price of $5
million, thus making my first million.

     It's nice to see that my home county is going to abandon their 19th
century voting equipment in favor of 20th century equipment.  It would
be even better if they realized it is now the 21st century and gone all
the way.

     The company that now own the rights to my patent (Hart InterCivic
of Austin,  TX) actually had their prototypes operating both in Colorado
and Texas this past election.  With a voter approval rate in excess of
90%.  And they have lined up a $35 million dollar financing package to
expand the company.....

See:        http://www.hartintercivic.com/
See also:  http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/010122/tx_co_hart_2.html

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18714
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 15:54:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Ginnie Heinlein, napster, etc
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

All--
     I have always thought it ironic that organizations that used
technology to put entire classes of people out of work not feel it their
right to "freeze" technology at that level to keep from being obsolete
themselves.

     A few examples:
Printing press -- put a whole class of scribes out of business.
Publishing has gone into panic over Xerox and internet.

Movies -- put thousands of theatrical companies, actors, etc. out of
business to replace them with a very few stars and studios.  They went
ballistic when the home VCR was developed.  They now make more on sales
on this medium that on the silver screen.

Music recording.  Again, thousands of small performing groups made
obsolete.  Buy they managed to keep DTS recording systems off the market
for years.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18715
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:17:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Dennis Doms wrote:

> There was also an SF story titled "Shortstack"  by Walt Richmond  and Leigh
> Richmond (in Groff Conklin's anthology "Elsewhere and Elsewhen") that
> described trying a similar trick in the atmosphere.

     A fun to read story, but it ignored the 3 1/2 degrees (F) per 1000 feet
cooling of a parcel of rising (reducing pressure) air.  The term is abadiac
cooling or something like that, but I can't get close enough for my spell
checker to recognize it.


--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they
make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18716
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:34:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Lunar Tourism Already Exists?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Filksinger--

     Generally, you are not required to pass through customs unless you
visit a foreign jurisdiction.  You may fly over Canada, or even Cuba (or
directly from Atlantic City to Long island -- which take you 40 miles
out to sea) or take a boat from New York to Miami via international
waters without having to clear customs.  Puerto Rico to the US Virgin
Islands to Norfolk is also domestic.  I'm not sure how the Panama Canal
is rated; but would guess that if you don't step ashore you are OK.
Three mile limit and international waters are tricky areas.

     Apollo never touched down in a foreign country.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18717
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 16:51:20 -0500
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"David M. Silver" wrote:

>  What's the name of the Niven-Pournelle novel
> with the sufer going by Century City Towers on the tidal wave?

Lucifer's Hammer--


<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they make
it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18718
From: Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:13:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3A9EB3AC.43D3B29D@aol.com...
>      The congresscritters are now talking of spending 2.5 billion
> (that's a "B") on voting equipment updates.  At 2% -- no need for me to
> think about buying just an estate in the Bahamas -- buy a whole island.

I think you seriously underestimate the price of a Bahamian Island.  While I
haven't priced one, I suspect that 250 million is barely sufficient.  Or
maybe my impression of the prices of entire islands is inflated.

Frank Fujita



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18719
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:45:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3A9EB3AC.43D3B29D@aol.com>, Charles Graft writes...
> I'm going to launch a new thread here -- it is seeming a bit off
> subject.
> 
> Filksinger wrote:
> 
> > We allow patents for 17 years, but we allow copyright for a century?
> > There
> > is something screwed up here.
....
>      Amen brother.  But then again, a patent is simpler -- you agree to
> share your technology in exchange for a period in which you have
> exclusive control.  The alternative is marketing by trade secret.

The chance that two people will write the same book is much smaller than 
the chance that two people will discover the same invention.  That, IMHO, 
is the reason why copyright is granted for a much longer period than 
patent.  Given the reason why intellectual property is protected - "to 
promote Science and useful Arts" - I don't see that a substantially 
different period for patent versus copyright is "screwed up".  However, 
it could well be that one or the other period is too long (or too 
short) as it now stands.

As to "simpler", B.C., I don't follow you.  Copyright protection is far 
simpler to /get/ than patent protection, so what did you have in mind?
 
>      But in a society in which it can easily take ten years to market a
> new drug a 17 year patent seems a bit short.

Perhaps drug patents should run longer - it is already the case that 
different kinds of patents run for different lengths of time.  On the 
other hand, I would want to see evidence the the returns on equity of 
pharmaceutical companies have dropped as the time to market has 
increased.

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18720
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 18:49:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Charles Graft wrote:

> The term is abadiac
> cooling or something like that, but I can't get close enough for my spell
> checker to recognize it.

Could the word you're looking for be "adiabatic"?

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18721
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 18:52:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3A9EBC4F.66E95672@aol.com>, Charles Graft writes...
....
>      A fun to read story, but it ignored the 3 1/2 degrees (F) per 1000 feet
> cooling of a parcel of rising (reducing pressure) air.  The term is abadiac
> cooling or something like that, but I can't get close enough for my spell
> checker to recognize it.

Adiabatic.

-- 
Gordon "dew point" Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18722
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:13:26 -0800
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3A9EBC4F.66E95672@aol.com...
<snip>
>  The term is abadiac
> cooling or something like that, but I can't get close enough for my spell
> checker to recognize it.

adiabatic

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18723
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:14:50 -0800
Subject: Re: Lunar Tourism Already Exists?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3A9EC077.2FE377E0@aol.com...
> Filksinger--
>
>      Generally, you are not required to pass through customs unless you
> visit a foreign jurisdiction. <snip>
>      Apollo never touched down in a foreign country.

All true. I have no doubt that the "Customs forms" were a joke, though they
might have been authentic forms, or even authentic customs agents. I assumed
they weren't serious.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18724
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:17:05 -0800
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com> wrote in message
news:3A9E80C0.B7BF7F2@loop.com...
> <snip>Does anyone in Seattle of the immediate
> area know exactly how much of its normally scheduled traffic SEATAC is
likely
> to be handling by this Saturday?

Don't know for sure, but I'd guess "all of it". I could be wrong.

> What's the name of the Niven-Pournelle novel
> with the sufer going by Century City Towers on the tidal wave?

Lucifer's Hammer. Larry Niven says he was bothered by fans about it so much
that he had to start telling them that he didn't personally see the surfer
get killed.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18725
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 16:22:43 -0800
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1508a9133b12a1fc989768@news.sff.net...
> In article <3A9EB3AC.43D3B29D@aol.com>, Charles Graft writes...
> > I'm going to launch a new thread here -- it is seeming a bit off
> > subject.
> >
> > Filksinger wrote:
> >
> > > We allow patents for 17 years, but we allow copyright for a century?
> > > There
> > > is something screwed up here.
> ...
> >      Amen brother.  But then again, a patent is simpler -- you agree to
> > share your technology in exchange for a period in which you have
> > exclusive control.  The alternative is marketing by trade secret.
>
> The chance that two people will write the same book is much smaller than
> the chance that two people will discover the same invention.  That, IMHO,
> is the reason why copyright is granted for a much longer period than
> patent.  Given the reason why intellectual property is protected - "to
> promote Science and useful Arts" - I don't see that a substantially
> different period for patent versus copyright is "screwed up".  However,
> it could well be that one or the other period is too long (or too
> short) as it now stands.

The two were much much closer together when originally created. Now, I could
sing a hit song, a record company could take advantage of a clause they've
been sneaking into contracts for years waiting for the day that they changed
the laws (which they did via midnight skulduggery that should probably be
illegal), and they control a recording I made with my own money long after
my death.
<snip>
> >      But in a society in which it can easily take ten years to market a
> > new drug a 17 year patent seems a bit short.
>
> Perhaps drug patents should run longer - it is already the case that
> different kinds of patents run for different lengths of time.  On the
> other hand, I would want to see evidence the the returns on equity of
> pharmaceutical companies have dropped as the time to market has
> increased.

I don't think drug companies should get special priviledges here. Instead, I
think there should be a clause in patent law that says that if the
government requires a review process on a patented idea, the patent starts
counting from the moment I am able to legally produce the product.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18726
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 19:29:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



georule wrote:

> I
> haven't actually read much fiction the last year.

Me neither (it was a pretty hectic year), so this won't be much of a ballot...
but I do have a couple minor contributions:

> Catagories:
>
> Best Novel

The only new SF novels I read this year were John Barnes' _Candle_, Spider
Robinson's _Callahan's Key_, and Allen Steele's _OceanSpece_. I enjoyed them
all quite a lot, but I'm not sure any is likely to have been among the year's 5
best. If anyone else who's read more widely were to nominate any of the above,
I'd second the nomination (esp. _Callahan's Key_... but then, I'm a known
sucker for Spider's work). I think I saw that there's a new book in Michael
Flynn's _Firestar_/_Rogue Star_ series. Did any of you read it? If it's up to
the standard of the first two, it might be worth a nod.

> Best Novella

Nope

> Best Novelette

Nope

> Best Short Story

Nope

> Best Related Book (Might be an overwhelming favorite here<g>)

Heh, heh... yup... _RAH:ARC_

> Best Dramatic Presentation

Didn't see much movie SF per se, but given the way they often stretch the
definition for this category, I wonder if _What Women Want_, in which the main
character can hear the unspoken thoughts of the women around him, would count?
There's plenty of classic mainstream SF in which some form of ESP is the only
science fictional element. And while I'm at it, I want to register an
*anti-vote* for _The Grinch_, just in case anyone tries to sneak it in. (I
liked the movie well enough, actually, but don't think it should get an SF
award.)

> Best Professional Editor

Is this category for magazine editors only, or do anthologies count? I don't
read _Asimov's_, so I can't comment on him as a magazine editor, but for my
money Gardner Dozois (sp?) deserves a nomination pretty much annually on the
strength of his _Year's Best Science Fiction_ collection alone.

> Best Semiprozine

Dunno

> John W. Campbell Award

Not a clue

> Retro Hugo for 1950

Refresh my memory on how this category works, please...

>
>
> I will accept votes thru March 15, 2001.   One per customer.  Please vote by
> replying to this message.

Done!

-JovBill (I *think* I meet your membership criteria! <vbg>)



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18727
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 19:40:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Frank Fujita wrote:

> "Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:3A9EB3AC.43D3B29D@aol.com...
> >      The congresscritters are now talking of spending 2.5 billion
> > (that's a "B") on voting equipment updates.  At 2% -- no need for me to
> > think about buying just an estate in the Bahamas -- buy a whole island.
>
> I think you seriously underestimate the price of a Bahamian Island.  While I
> haven't priced one, I suspect that 250 million is barely sufficient.

Hmm, Frank... did I do my math wrong, or did you? Isn't 2% of $2.5 billion more
like $50 million? (I assume BC is talking in American terms -- i.e., 1 billion
= 1 thousand million.) Maybe BC will have to stick to sub-Gates-level real
estate after all.... <vbg>

-JovBill



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18728
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 01 Mar 2001 19:41:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations (correction)
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Bill Dauphin wrote:

> Allen Steele's _OceanSpece_

That should, of course, be _OceanSp*a*ce_

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18729
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 17:43:45 -0800
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3A9EEBE0.3BB8710E@ix.netcom.com...
<snip>
>
> Hmm, Frank... did I do my math wrong, or did you? Isn't 2% of $2.5 billion
more
> like $50 million? (I assume BC is talking in American terms -- i.e., 1
billion
> = 1 thousand million.) Maybe BC will have to stick to sub-Gates-level real
> estate after all.... <vbg>

Uh, Bill? I think that was his point.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18730
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 20:45:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a9ee7d9.0@news.sff.net>, Filksinger writes...
....
> The two were much much closer together when originally created. Now, I could
> sing a hit song, a record company could take advantage of a clause they've
> been sneaking into contracts for years waiting for the day that they changed
> the laws (which they did via midnight skulduggery that should probably be
> illegal), and they control a recording I made with my own money long after
> my death.

Bad things happen to good people.
....
> I don't think drug companies should get special priviledges here. Instead, I
> think there should be a clause in patent law that says that if the
> government requires a review process on a patented idea, the patent starts
> counting from the moment I am able to legally produce the product.

OK.  And I think patents "should be" shorter than copyrights.  Why think, 
given your acknowledgement of "midnight skullduggery" in our fine 
legislative process, that an attempt to rewrite patent law according to 
your suggestion wouldn't end with special privileges for a variety of 
industries?     

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18731
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 01:03:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Filksinger wrote:

> Uh, Bill? I think that was his point.

Mebbe so. I read "$X would be barely sufficient..." as meaning $X was the
estimated amount available (and "barely sufficient" to *purchase* the island =
NOT sufficient to purchase the island and have anything left to live on).
Probably you're right about what Frank *intended*, and maybe even most folks
read the sentence that way... but I'm living proof that a smart, literate
reader could misinterpret it. This comes up frequently at work: An author
writes a sentence that makes perfect sense to hir, but I read it completely
differently because I don't already know what it's supposed to mean.

If Frank were my customer, I'd advise him to rewrite along these lines: "2% of
$2.5 billion is only $50 million; I believe even *5 times* that much would
barely be sufficient."

-JovBill

PS: No offense intended, Frank. Please understand that being an editor is an
incurable condition! ;^)


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18732
From: georule" <georule@citlink.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:53:21 -0800
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


Speaking of "reform". . .I was watching the pardon hearing today and it
seemed to me that when the Dems found out that Denise Rich was at the
Whitehouse the night before the pardon that they were all hoping it would
come out that she . . .uh. . .serviced. . .the President so that they could
all go back to claiming that it was just those smutty, repressed Republicans
fascination with sex. . .


"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3A9EB3AC.43D3B29D@aol.com...
> I'm going to launch a new thread here -- it is seeming a bit off
> subject.
>
> Filksinger wrote:
>




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18733
From: georule" <georule@citlink.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:57:07 -0800
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Hey, JovBill  --long time no type atcha.

Retro Hugo basically means anything from 1950 is eligible for a Hugo this
year, because they hadn't started giving out Hugo's yet in 1950.  So the con
has an opportunity to do it retroactively at 50 years 75 years or 100 years.
See?  Haven't checked to see yet what RAH would have eligible, if anything.

>
> > Retro Hugo for 1950
>
> Refresh my memory on how this category works, please...
>
> >
> >
> > I will accept votes thru March 15, 2001.   One per customer.  Please
vote by
> > replying to this message.
>
> Done!
>
> -JovBill (I *think* I meet your membership criteria! <vbg>)
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18734
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:24:13 -0800
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com> wrote in message
news:3A9DA5B8.2C6E3A39@loop.com...
> Filksinger wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > For a collection of most or all of his work, you can find it
online at the
> > Lovecraft Library at http://www.gizmology.net/lovecraft/.
>
> When I finished reading "Magic, Inc." and "Waldo" the first time,
around 1955,
> I talked to the public librarian, asking her which authors I might
find
> somewhat like those works of Heinlein. She mentioned Lovecraft,

Which sounds insane to me.

In Lovecraft, bizarre, not even truly material, and even already
"dead" aliens from other worlds spread strange religions with their
thoughts, preaching orgiastic sex and cannibalism. OTOH, take a story
like Stranger In a Strange Land, where....

Never mind.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18735
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:30:43 -0800
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1508c5443910b4e598976a@news.sff.net...
> In article <3a9ee7d9.0@news.sff.net>, Filksinger writes...
> ...
> > The two were much much closer together when originally created.
Now, I could
> > sing a hit song, a record company could take advantage of a clause
they've
> > been sneaking into contracts for years waiting for the day that
they changed
> > the laws (which they did via midnight skulduggery that should
probably be
> > illegal), and they control a recording I made with my own money
long after
> > my death.
>
> Bad things happen to good people.

Yes, but the recording industry _routinely_ does it to people. They
even got the laws changed in California so that a recording industry
contract with an individual is different than all other contracts with
individuals, in that you cannot escape via bankrupcy, even after 7
years.

> > I don't think drug companies should get special priviledges here.
Instead, I
> > think there should be a clause in patent law that says that if the
> > government requires a review process on a patented idea, the
patent starts
> > counting from the moment I am able to legally produce the product.
>
> OK.  And I think patents "should be" shorter than copyrights.  Why
think,
> given your acknowledgement of "midnight skullduggery" in our fine
> legislative process, that an attempt to rewrite patent law according
to
> your suggestion wouldn't end with special privileges for a variety
of
> industries?

Why, I don't think that at all. I only said what I thought there
_should_ be. Frequently attempts to rewrite laws doesn't take the
simple answer, but instead creates difficult answers and introduces
"special" categories. Doesn't mean I don't think they shouldn't be
better than they are.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18736
From: LORRITA  MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2001 23:28:41 -0800
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Most of us on this side of the Cascades weren't that impressed with the
quake either.  The brand new Department of Social and Health Services (DSHS)
building in Yakima suffered some cracks.

They're taking a closer look at Umatilla.  They found a possible Serin nerve
gas leak in one of the igloos.  It may NOT be earthquake related.

Hanford had to recalibrate a whole bunch of monitoring equipment.
Conflicting readings told them they didn't have a leak in a waste tank when
the alarm went off.

We who live here are more concerned with leaks at Umatilla where the
chemical weapons are than we are leaks at Hanford where the nuclear waste
is.
--
Later,

`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.

"georule" <georule@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:3a9dbc22.0@news.sff.net...
>
> Emailed with Bytor this afternoon.  He's fine, and unimpressed with a 6.8.




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18737
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 00:35:15 -0800
Subject: Re: Cthulhu and Lovecraft
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Filksinger wrote:


> > [snipped]
> > When I finished reading "Magic, Inc." and "Waldo" the first time,
> around 1955,
> > I talked to the public librarian, asking her which authors I might
> find
> > somewhat like those works of Heinlein. She mentioned Lovecraft,
>
> Which sounds insane to me.
>
> In Lovecraft, bizarre, not even truly material, and even already
> "dead" aliens from other worlds spread strange religions with their
> thoughts, preaching orgiastic sex and cannibalism. OTOH, take a story
> like Stranger In a Strange Land, where....
>
> Never mind.

Oh, absolutely! I agree with you totally, although SiaSL was more than
five years from first publication then. I nevertheless enjoyed what I
did read. I'd been plowing my way through Howard's Conans about the same
time, and she knew that as well. Perhaps she put two and two together
and came up with Lovecraft. OTOH, she may have simply been a weird fan
and thought the imagination would appeal to me.

David





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18738
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:09:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a9f4c83.1@news.sff.net>, Filksinger writes...
....
> Yes, but the recording industry _routinely_ does it to people.

I don't see how this part of your response is relevant to my claim that 
copyright ought to run longer than patent.

> They
> even got the laws changed in California so that a recording industry
> contract with an individual is different than all other contracts with
> individuals, in that you cannot escape via bankrupcy, even after 7
> years.

Bankruptcy law is federal, not state.  There is a rather complex set of 
exceptions, but it is unclear to me which, if any, of these California 
law might have been rewritten to take advantage of.  Can you provide any 
more details on this?
....
> Why, I don't think that at all. I only said what I thought there
> _should_ be.

Then how was your point about recording companies relevant to my claim 
that copyright ought to run longer than patent?

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18739
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:13:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3A9F379D.2878A586@ix.netcom.com>, Bill Dauphin writes...

> This comes up frequently at work: An author
> writes a sentence that makes perfect sense to hir, but I read it completely
> differently because I don't already know what it's supposed to mean.

It's a wonder that we can communicate et al. 

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18740
From: Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 10:26:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Thanks for everyone who assumed that I obviously meant what I said.
Unfortunately, I did indeed do my math incorrectly (I *should* have used a
calculator) and was mixed up.  Thanks to JovBill from who(m?) I take no
offense.

"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3A9F379D.2878A586@ix.netcom.com...
>
>
> Filksinger wrote:
>
> > Uh, Bill? I think that was his point.
>
> Mebbe so. I read "$X would be barely sufficient..." as meaning $X was the
> estimated amount available (and "barely sufficient" to *purchase* the
island =
> NOT sufficient to purchase the island and have anything left to live on).
> Probably you're right about what Frank *intended*, and maybe even most
folks
> read the sentence that way... but I'm living proof that a smart, literate
> reader could misinterpret it. This comes up frequently at work: An author
> writes a sentence that makes perfect sense to hir, but I read it
completely
> differently because I don't already know what it's supposed to mean.
>
> If Frank were my customer, I'd advise him to rewrite along these lines:
"2% of
> $2.5 billion is only $50 million; I believe even *5 times* that much would
> barely be sufficient."
>
> -JovBill
>
> PS: No offense intended, Frank. Please understand that being an editor is
an
> incurable condition! ;^)
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18741
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 11:31:40 -0800
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Gordon G. Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.150981c2209d27a898976b@news.sff.net...
> In article <3a9f4c83.1@news.sff.net>, Filksinger writes...
> ...
> > Yes, but the recording industry _routinely_ does it to people.
>
> I don't see how this part of your response is relevant to my claim that
> copyright ought to run longer than patent.

You said, "Bad things happen to good people", in response to my post about
the borderline behavior of the recording industry. I was responding to this
comment on my comment, not the prior one.

Actually, I think copyright _should_ last longer than a patent. Just not as
long as it does now.

> > They
> > even got the laws changed in California so that a recording industry
> > contract with an individual is different than all other contracts with
> > individuals, in that you cannot escape via bankrupcy, even after 7
> > years.
>
> Bankruptcy law is federal, not state.  There is a rather complex set of
> exceptions, but it is unclear to me which, if any, of these California
> law might have been rewritten to take advantage of.  Can you provide any
> more details on this?

I'm not certain of the law in question. I have heard it was in 1987, but I
don't know the exact details. It appears to have to do with section 2855 of
the California Labor Code, which limits the duration of personal-services
contracts to seven years. Apparently, some change in the law is supposed to
make a recording contract not a "personal-services" contract under the law,
and this is supposed to have something to do with whether or not bankrupcy
can free you from the contract.

I probably shouldn't use that example any more, as the source was less than
unimpeachable, and rather vague on the details.

> > Why, I don't think that at all. I only said what I thought there
> > _should_ be.
>
> Then how was your point about recording companies relevant to my claim
> that copyright ought to run longer than patent?

It should. I just don't think it should go quite as far as it has. As it is,
an artist who makes a recording will not only probably never have rights
over that recording again (thanks to the Home Sattellite , but will probably
never see it enter public domain, either.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18742
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 15:49:30 -0500
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Frank Fujita wrote:

> "Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:3A9EB3AC.43D3B29D@aol.com...
> >      The congresscritters are now talking of spending 2.5 billion
> > (that's a "B") on voting equipment updates.  At 2% -- no need for me to
> > think about buying just an estate in the Bahamas -- buy a whole island.
>
> I think you seriously underestimate the price of a Bahamian Island.  While I
> haven't priced one, I suspect that 250 million is barely sufficient.  Or
> maybe my impression of the prices of entire islands is inflated.
>
> Frank Fujita

Frank--
     It depends on how much island you want.  If it is small, remote and without
fresh water or a reasonable harbor or anchorage, they can be very cheap.  And
very worthless.

     But yes, I was stretching things a bit.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they
make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18743
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 16:02:21 -0500
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Filksinger wrote:

>
> I don't think drug companies should get special priviledges here. Instead, I
> think there should be a clause in patent law that says that if the
> government requires a review process on a patented idea, the patent starts
> counting from the moment I am able to legally produce the product.
>
> Filksinger

     I don't disagree with your approach at all.

    One of Indianapolis's largest employers (and one of my biggest customers
over the years) is Eli Lilly.  I have watched their stock yo-yo over the years
as drugs come to market and later the patents run out.   Medicinal research is a
high risk field with a very small chance of any given project getting to
market.  Then if you do hit something in demand,  you hear "greedy drug
companies should not make a profit on the misery of  patients".  The fact that
that profit is what made the drug available in the first place is ignored.  (How
many advanced in pharmacology come out of "socialized medicine" systems?)

     Pharmaceutical stocks as a group are publicly traded for anyone who wants a
part of the "obscene profits".  Their returns are not spectacular in the long
run.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they
make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18744
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 13:57:03 -0800
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3AA00A5D.C1269D5B@aol.com...
> Filksinger wrote:
>
> >
> > I don't think drug companies should get special priviledges here.
Instead, I
> > think there should be a clause in patent law that says that if the
> > government requires a review process on a patented idea, the patent
starts
> > counting from the moment I am able to legally produce the product.
> >
> > Filksinger
>
>      I don't disagree with your approach at all.
>
>     One of Indianapolis's largest employers (and one of my biggest
customers
> over the years) is Eli Lilly.  I have watched their stock yo-yo over the
years
> as drugs come to market and later the patents run out.   Medicinal
research is a
> high risk field with a very small chance of any given project getting to
> market.  Then if you do hit something in demand,  you hear "greedy drug
> companies should not make a profit on the misery of  patients".  The fact
that
> that profit is what made the drug available in the first place is ignored.
(How
> many advanced in pharmacology come out of "socialized medicine" systems?)
>
>      Pharmaceutical stocks as a group are publicly traded for anyone who
wants a
> part of the "obscene profits".  Their returns are not spectacular in the
long
> run.

I don't understand. You are acting as if my suggestion does not benefit the
drug companies, yet it is specifically designed to benefit them, _and anyone
in the same boat_.

What, exactly, is it with which you disagree?

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18745
From: cdozo@hotmail.com
Date: 2 Mar 2001 23:42:50 GMT
Subject: Checksum -- A Techie Question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Hey Folks,

At work, I want to use the checksum to verify that the correct code is being
burned into EPROM's. My question is, does the checksum vary with the brand
of chip the code is burned into? I.e. if the same code is programmed into
an Intel 27C512 and an ST 27C512, will they have the same checksums?

Thanks, Carol

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18746
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 16:29:04 -0800
Subject: Re: Checksum -- A Techie Question
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

They should be the same. The checksum should be defined by the method used
to generate it (CRC, for example, which is probably what these use), and the
data on the chip. The brand of the chip should not affect this, if they are
otherwise supposed to be much the same.

Filksinger

<cdozo@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3aa02ffa.0@news.sff.net...
> Hey Folks,
>
> At work, I want to use the checksum to verify that the correct code is
being
> burned into EPROM's. My question is, does the checksum vary with the brand
> of chip the code is burned into? I.e. if the same code is programmed into
> an Intel 27C512 and an ST 27C512, will they have the same checksums?
>
> Thanks, Carol



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18747
From: David Wright" <dwrigsr@alltel.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 19:44:51 -0500
Subject: Discussion Log for Heinlein Readers Group 3-01-2001 meeting now available:
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

The Discussion Log for the Heinlein Readers Group Thursday 3-01-2001
meeting is now available:

http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/MYST_AIM_03-01-2001.html

The topic was 'Mysticism in Heinlein'. The discussion was very lively
and enjoyable.

We were honored by a short visit, before the discussion began, from Joel
Rosenberg who is to be our Guest of Honor on the 29th and 31st of March.

Another meeting on the same topic will be held Saturday 3-3-2001 at 5:00
P.M. EST
--
Related Heinlein Web Pages

http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein.html

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

http://www.heinleinsociety.com/






------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18748
From: Audrey Gifford <agifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 17:47:12 -0800
Subject: Re: Authoritative Bibliography?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Well, actually, there's Robert Heinlein, A Reader's Companion, which has
everything he wrote listed and notated. By James Gifford. You can get it from
Amazon, etc.

Robert Larson wrote:

> I'm looking for an authoritative bibliography of RAH's works. I've been
> working with Grumbles so far and apparantly that isn't actually listing 1st
> publishers as I'd thought but current or latest publishers. Someone here
> quoted me some info here from SciFi Encyclopedia. Is there such a reference
> work on the Web somewhere? I need to get educated on the Pre 70s works. The
> ebay bidding is getting 'spensive and I don't wanna mess up. Thanks.


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18749
From: Audrey Gifford <agifford@rcsis.com>
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:04:20 -0800
Subject: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ahem...

Thought I might drop in here and delurk,. I've been here so long most of
you don't know me - Geo and Deb and sometimes Doc and Sifi Rob might
remember me, but the reason I am delurking is to let all of you know
that Bob Lawson - who IS still a regular here - since 1989 or so - back
in the olden days of Prodigy - received three letters of acceptance
today for colleges. He has been admitted as a freshman to:

physics, UC Santa Cruz
physics, UC Riverside

and Cal Poly.


So far no one has turned him down.


So all of you who helped him with all those science questions when he
was still a little boy may pat yourselves on the back.

And him too..

Thanks, everyone - Audrey (his Mom)




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18750
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:10:06 -0800
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Audrey Gifford" <agifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3AA05124.223753CB@rcsis.com...
> Ahem...
>
> Thought I might drop in here and delurk,. I've been here so long most of
> you don't know me - Geo and Deb and sometimes Doc and Sifi Rob might
> remember me,

I remember seeing you a few times.

> but the reason I am delurking is to let all of you know
> that Bob Lawson - who IS still a regular here - since 1989 or so - back
> in the olden days of Prodigy - received three letters of acceptance
> today for colleges. He has been admitted as a freshman to:
>
> physics, UC Santa Cruz
> physics, UC Riverside
>
> and Cal Poly.
>
>
> So far no one has turned him down.
>
>
> So all of you who helped him with all those science questions when he
> was still a little boy may pat yourselves on the back.
>
> And him too..
>
> Thanks, everyone - Audrey (his Mom)

Way to go, Bob! And Mom!

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18751
From: Robert Slater" <rslater215@home.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 18:46:31 -0800
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Congrats Bob, and Audrey!  Nice to see you.  Worth a delurk myself!  How are
things?  I know...
A. Are you writing?
B. Busy, busy busy...
T. Teaching?
K. Kid wrangling?
E. All of the above?
SIFI Rob
A teacher/writer with state mandated testing looming.


Audrey Gifford <agifford@rcsis.com> wrote in message
news:3AA05124.223753CB@rcsis.com...
> Ahem...
>
> Thought I might drop in here and delurk,. I've been here so long most of
> you don't know me - Geo and Deb and sometimes Doc and Sifi Rob might
> remember me, but the reason I am delurking is to let all of you know
> that Bob Lawson - who IS still a regular here - since 1989 or so - back
> in the olden days of Prodigy - received three letters of acceptance
> today for colleges. He has been admitted as a freshman to:
>
> physics, UC Santa Cruz
> physics, UC Riverside
>
> and Cal Poly.
>
>
> So far no one has turned him down.
>
>
> So all of you who helped him with all those science questions when he
> was still a little boy may pat yourselves on the back.
>
> And him too..
>
> Thanks, everyone - Audrey (his Mom)
>
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18752
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2001 23:39:46 -0500
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3AA05124.223753CB@rcsis.com>, Audrey Gifford writes...
> He has been admitted as a freshman to:
> 
> physics, UC Santa Cruz
> physics, UC Riverside
> 
> and Cal Poly.

San Luis Obispo or Pomona?  Doesn't matter; take Scruz!!

Congrats!

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18753
From: Robert Slater" <rslater215@home.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 00:27:31 -0800
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Geo
The Campbell award:
A shirt tale relative by the name of Tobias (Toby) Buckell.  I've read some
of his stuff and it's very good.  I'm envious.  ANd I think that means
something.  He had stories this last year in the final issue of SF Age and
and was a quarterly winner of WOTF.
Rob


georule <georule@citlink.net> wrote in message
news:3a9f43d6.0@news.sff.net...
> Hey, JovBill  --long time no type atcha.
>
> Retro Hugo basically means anything from 1950 is eligible for a Hugo this
> year, because they hadn't started giving out Hugo's yet in 1950.  So the
con
> has an opportunity to do it retroactively at 50 years 75 years or 100
years.
> See?  Haven't checked to see yet what RAH would have eligible, if
anything.
>
> >
> > > Retro Hugo for 1950
> >
> > Refresh my memory on how this category works, please...
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > I will accept votes thru March 15, 2001.   One per customer.  Please
> vote by
> > > replying to this message.
> >
> > Done!
> >
> > -JovBill (I *think* I meet your membership criteria! <vbg>)
> >
> >
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18754
From: hf_jai@prodigy.net (Jai Johnson-Pickett)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 14:00:50 GMT
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Mega Congrats to Bob!  I know you must be feeling proud, Audrey.  (I
still have a couple more years to go for this experience).

And of course we still remember you.  Glad you dropped back in with
the good news.
Jai

On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:04:20 -0800, Audrey Gifford
<agifford@rcsis.com> wrote:

>Ahem...
>
>Thought I might drop in here and delurk,. I've been here so long most of
>you don't know me - Geo and Deb and sometimes Doc and Sifi Rob might
>remember me, but the reason I am delurking is to let all of you know
>that Bob Lawson - who IS still a regular here - since 1989 or so - back
>in the olden days of Prodigy - received three letters of acceptance
>today for colleges. He has been admitted as a freshman to:
>
>physics, UC Santa Cruz
>physics, UC Riverside
>
>and Cal Poly.
>
>
>So far no one has turned him down.
>
>
>So all of you who helped him with all those science questions when he
>was still a little boy may pat yourselves on the back.
>
>And him too..
>
>Thanks, everyone - Audrey (his Mom)
>
>
>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18755
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:48:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred Bester
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader:      Thanks for the heads-up. "Borders" you say.
  There is a lot of Bester that I haven't yet read.  I do love those
works of his that I Have read.
(my favorite is The Stars My Destination).

Ed J

On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:12:44 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:

>This author came up a couple/three months ago, thought I'd let you
>know what I found in Borders the other day.
>
>Reprint of "The Deceivers","redemolished" a collection of shorts,
>essays, & some interviews, including a prologue for The Demolished
>Man, that was cut from the original & "Psychoshop" which was finished
>by Zelazny after Bester's death.
>
>I'm one happy camper, always loved Bester's stuff & this should keep
>me busy for awhile.
>
>They're by ibooks in small trade paperbacks, & I believe I saw "the
>Computer Conection" & The Demolished Man as well.(got those already)
>Here's your chance to fill those holes in your collections.
>
>Fader 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18756
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:59:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

SIFI Rob:   It's good to hear in from you.  (and bytor and
Filksinger).  Never sneer at a `quake:  an aftershock may sneak up
on you when you least expect it.  .  .  .   I have heard that SeaTac
is at 40% capacity for all flights & that this should last for about
30 days more.  Does that sound like what your local news is
reporting?

Ed J
`rita:   I thought that you & Finley, Wa. were further than 200
miles from the quake.


On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:16:54 -0800, "Robert Slater"
<rslater215@home.com> wrote:

>SIFI Rob was sitting at his desk doing writing research and didn't even
>notice.  This is the second quake I haven't felt.  I guess it probably means
>my house and surrounds are stable.  I live on a big rock, I think.
>Thanks,
>Rob

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18757
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 16:11:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Geo & JovBill:
   I think that Farmer in the Sky came out in 1950, after Red Planet
and before Puppet Masters.  James Gifford should have the actual
publication dates handy, if he wouldn't mind.
  
Ed J
  



On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 22:57:07 -0800, "georule" <georule@citlink.net>
wrote:

>Hey, JovBill  --long time no type atcha.
>
>Retro Hugo basically means anything from 1950 is eligible for a Hugo this
>year, because they hadn't started giving out Hugo's yet in 1950.  So the con
>has an opportunity to do it retroactively at 50 years 75 years or 100 years.
>See?  Haven't checked to see yet what RAH would have eligible, if anything.
>
>>
>> > Retro Hugo for 1950
>>
>> Refresh my memory on how this category works, please...
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > I will accept votes thru March 15, 2001.   One per customer.  Please
>vote by
>> > replying to this message.
>>
>> Done!
>>
>> -JovBill (I *think* I meet your membership criteria! <vbg>)
>>
>>
>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18758
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 16:23:23 -0500
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Congrats to Bob (& Audrey) on being accepted to these fine schools!
  All I know about Cal Poly at San Luis Obispo is how beautify the
campus looked in `73 <G>.      
Bob:  Pick a good one and work hard;  good luck and Best Wishes.

Ed J

On Fri, 02 Mar 2001 18:04:20 -0800, Audrey Gifford
<agifford@rcsis.com> wrote:

>Ahem...
>
>Thought I might drop in here and delurk,. I've been here so long most of
>you don't know me - Geo and Deb and sometimes Doc and Sifi Rob might
>remember me, but the reason I am delurking is to let all of you know
>that Bob Lawson - who IS still a regular here - since 1989 or so - back
>in the olden days of Prodigy - received three letters of acceptance
>today for colleges. He has been admitted as a freshman to:
>
>physics, UC Santa Cruz
>physics, UC Riverside
>
>and Cal Poly.
>
>
>So far no one has turned him down.
>
>
>So all of you who helped him with all those science questions when he
>was still a little boy may pat yourselves on the back.
>
>And him too..
>
>Thanks, everyone - Audrey (his Mom)
>
>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18759
From: LORRITA  MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 14:00:29 -0800
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ed,
The quake was felt in Salt Lake City over 700 miles away.  So problems here
are expected..


--
Later,

`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.
"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com> wrote in message
news:lgm2atsvg7p0jv1u135qrnqq5vmcaau1i4@4ax.com...
> SIFI Rob:   It's good to hear in from you.  (and bytor and
> Filksinger).  Never sneer at a `quake:  an aftershock may sneak up
> on you when you least expect it.  .  .  .   I have heard that SeaTac
> is at 40% capacity for all flights & that this should last for about
> 30 days more.  Does that sound like what your local news is
> reporting?
>
> Ed J
> `rita:   I thought that you & Finley, Wa. were further than 200
> miles from the quake.
>
>
> On Thu, 1 Mar 2001 11:16:54 -0800, "Robert Slater"
> <rslater215@home.com> wrote:
>
> >SIFI Rob was sitting at his desk doing writing research and didn't even
> >notice.  This is the second quake I haven't felt.  I guess it probably
means
> >my house and surrounds are stable.  I live on a big rock, I think.
> >Thanks,
> >Rob
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18760
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 00:42:50 GMT
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

San Luis Obispo
>> and Cal Poly.
>
>San Luis Obispo or Pomona?  Doesn't matter; take Scruz!!
Thanks to all, BTW. I appreciate the congrats (and still remember well
how my interest in science was started). I still have six more
colelges to hear from though....

So why would you recommend Santa Cruz? (Personally, I have thought of
whether CalPoly or UCSC is better and really can't seem to decide...)
Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18761
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 00:45:52 GMT
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I realized that some might want to know what other six "colelges" I
applied to... They are:
UC Berkeley (I am doubtful)
Pomona College (hah! would be nice but they are by far the hardest on
the list)
UC Irvine
UC Santa Barbara
Whitman College (an intriguing liberal arts college in Walla Walla)
Occidental College (in L.A.)

>how my interest in science was started). I still have six more
>colelges to hear from though....

Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18762
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 00:53:22 GMT
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

no, no you people don't understand! The back door that he built in is
where the real money will come from....
>Hmm, Frank... did I do my math wrong, or did you? Isn't 2% of $2.5 billion more
>like $50 million? (I assume BC is talking in American terms -- i.e., 1 billion
>= 1 thousand million.) Maybe BC will have to stick to sub-Gates-level real
>estate after all.... <vbg>

Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18763
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Sat, 03 Mar 2001 17:25:21 -0800
Subject: Re: Seattle Earthquake
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ed Johnson wrote:

..  .  .   I have heard that SeaTac

> is at 40% capacity for all flights & that this should last for about
> 30 days more.  Does that sound like what your local news is
> reporting?
>
> Ed J

Thanks, Ed. That's about what we're getting down here, too; but Air Alaska is
encouraging tickets holders not to cancel, probably on the "omigod we might loss
a couple bucks principal and the passengers are just sheep anyway" ... so my
patient wife will probably get on the plane and we shall see what we shall see.

David





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18764
From: David Wright" <dwrigsr@alltel.net>
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 22:37:13 -0500
Subject: Discussion Log for Heinlein Readers Group 3-03-2001 now available
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

The Discussion Log for the Heinlein Readers Group Saturday 3-03-2001
meeting is now available:

http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/MYST_AIM_03-03-2001.html

The topic was 'Mysticism in Heinlein'.

David Wright
--
Related Heinlein Web Pages

http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein.html

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

http://www.heinleinsociety.com/





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18765
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 22:52:19 -0500
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3aa18f29.466472@news.sff.net>, Bob Lawson writes...
> San Luis Obispo
> >> and Cal Poly.
> >
> >San Luis Obispo or Pomona?  Doesn't matter; take Scruz!!
....
> So why would you recommend Santa Cruz? (Personally, I have thought of
> whether CalPoly or UCSC is better and really can't seem to decide...)

Because I would rather be in Santa Cruz than Pomona (I was born there) or 
Riverside!  OTOH, if it was CalPoly SLO, it would be a harder choice; 
that's a nice place to be, too. ;-)  Seriously, I have have been away 
from CA for over 25 years now, but in my day the UC system was markedly 
better than the state colleges.  However, a particular interest can over 
turn such considerations.  But, as it is, you don't seem to have a strong 
reason to pick CalPoly.

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18766
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2001 23:04:40 -0500
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3aa18f9a.579099@news.sff.net>, Bob Lawson writes...
> I realized that some might want to know what other six "colelges" I
> applied to... They are:
> UC Berkeley (I am doubtful)
> Pomona College (hah! would be nice but they are by far the hardest on
> the list)

Don't fret unless you get into both!  ;-)

Wherever you end up, be sure to (re)read Mr. Heinlein's essay, "The Happy 
Days Ahead", especially page 526 (in /Expanded Universe/).  Getting a 
real education is all up to you.

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18767
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 06:30:01 GMT
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>Because I would rather be in Santa Cruz than Pomona (I was born there) or 
>Riverside! OTOH, if it was CalPoly SLO, it would be a harder choice; 
It is SLO.
Oddly enough, my first choice would be to be in Pomona but that's
because I applied to Pomona College, not CalPoly Pomona.

>that's a nice place to be, too. ;-)  Seriously, I have have been away 
>from CA for over 25 years now, but in my day the UC system was markedly 
>better than the state colleges. 
This is still typically true; however, CalPoly SLO is something of an
outlier.. it really is an exceptional university. Not at all like the
other CSUs.
Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18768
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 06:30:42 GMT
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>UC Irvine
Update: (for any who may care) I discovered today that I was denied
admission to UC Irvine.
Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18769
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 07:18:35 GMT
Subject: Re: Alfred Bester
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 03 Mar 2001 15:48:31 -0500, eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed
Johnson) wrote:

>Fader:      Thanks for the heads-up. "Borders" you say.
>  There is a lot of Bester that I haven't yet read.  I do love those
>works of his that I Have read.
>(my favorite is The Stars My Destination).
>
I'm about 2/3 of the way thru The Psychoshop", not as impressed as I'd
thought I'd be.(sigh) TSMD was my first Bester, so it has a special
place place on my list, but like RAH, favorite is a relative &
slippery term.<g>

Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18770
From: Gordon Sollars" <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 15:41:27 -0500
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

> >Because I would rather be in Santa Cruz than Pomona (I was born there) or
> >Riverside! OTOH, if it was CalPoly SLO, it would be a harder choice;
> It is SLO.
> Oddly enough, my first choice would be to be in Pomona but that's
> because I applied to Pomona College, not CalPoly Pomona.

Paradoxically, Pomona College has not been in Pomona for over 100 years, but
in Claremont - a kinder, gentler community.  ;-)

--
Gordon G. Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18771
From: Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 16:50:32 -0500
Subject: Destination Moon
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I believe that Destination Moon will be shown on Turner Classic Movies in
about 8 hours, at 1:30 am Eastern Standard Time.  I just saw this in my
guide, and wanted to alert others of this opportunity.

Frank Fujita




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18772
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 23:11:56 -0500
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Hey, we remember you!
"Audrey Gifford" <agifford@rcsis.com> wrote
> Ahem...
>
> Thought I might drop in here and delurk,. I've been here so long most of
> you don't know me - Geo and Deb and sometimes Doc and Sifi Rob might
> remember me, but the reason I am delurking is to let all of you know
> that Bob Lawson - who IS still a regular here - since 1989 or so - back
> in the olden days of Prodigy - received three letters of acceptance
> today for colleges. He has been admitted as a freshman to:
>
> physics, UC Santa Cruz

Pick Santa Cruz! Go Banana Slugs!


--
WJaKe

http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18773
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 23:21:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Ed Johnson wrote:

> <re Retro Hugo> I think that Farmer in the Sky came out in 1950, after Red
> Planet
> and before Puppet Masters.

All due respect to the Master <g>, given the caliber of folks who were writing
during that timeframe, I'd be surprised if _Farmer_ (somehow FitS just doesn't
seem right <g>)were the best SF novel of the year. Is the Retro for novels, or
are works from the other Hugo categories also eligible?

Also, I'd like to amend my ballot WRT Best Dramatic Presentation: The family
tonight watched a video of _Frequency_, a 2000 release starring Dennis Quaid as
a firefighter from 1969 who helps his son (a grown-up cop in 1999) solve a
murder by communicating with him across 30 years on a ham radio. It's clearly SF
-- an alternate timelines story along the lines of _Sliding Doors_, which I
believe was nominated in its year of release -- and I found it very effective.

BTW, where's everyone else's ballot? I've been looking forward to reading more
in this thread.

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18774
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2001 23:37:29 -0500
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

For those of you looking for nomination ideas...

http://www.nesfa.org/hugos00.html

and

http://www.nesfa.org/hugos50.html

--
WJaKe

http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18775
From: Rich Horton <richard.horton@sff.net>
Date: Sun, 04 Mar 2001 22:50:46 -0600
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 4 Mar 2001 23:37:29 -0500, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:

>For those of you looking for nomination ideas...
>
>http://www.nesfa.org/hugos00.html
>
>and
>
>http://www.nesfa.org/hugos50.html

For what it's worth, I've spent some time rereading 1950 SF, and I
have a list of IMO worthwhile 1950 fiction at
www.sff.net/people/richard.horton/retro50.htm .


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18776
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 08:44:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Jake:    What a choice!  Pebble in the Sky  vs.  First Lensman!
It's not fair to judge one of the Master's juveniles against first
rate stuff from Asimov or Doc Smith.

Ed J

On Sun, 4 Mar 2001 23:37:29 -0500, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:

>For those of you looking for nomination ideas...
>
>http://www.nesfa.org/hugos00.html
>
>and
>
>http://www.nesfa.org/hugos50.html


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18777
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:12:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred Bester
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader:  Many, many moons ago I bought and read a couple of Bester's
collected short stories.  I thought highly of "Starburst" & "The
Dark Side of the Earth" when I first read these collections.  I also
enjoyed The Demolished Man almost as much as TSMD.  Both novels left
mental images that have lasted over a third of a century.  

Ed J  
(If you like Bester, did you also enjoy R. Matheson's 'Third from
the Sun' collection?)



On Wed, 21 Feb 2001 10:12:44 GMT, fader555@aol.com (Fader) wrote:

>This author came up a couple/three months ago, thought I'd let you
>know what I found in Borders the other day.
>
>Reprint of "The Deceivers","redemolished" a collection of shorts,
>essays, & some interviews, including a prologue for The Demolished
>Man, that was cut from the original & "Psychoshop" which was finished
>by Zelazny after Bester's death.
>
>I'm one happy camper, always loved Bester's stuff & this should keep
>me busy for awhile.
>
>They're by ibooks in small trade paperbacks, & I believe I saw "the
>Computer Conection" & The Demolished Man as well.(got those already)
>Here's your chance to fill those holes in your collections.
>
>Fader 


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18778
From: debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 20:13:55 GMT
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>Jake:    What a choice!  Pebble in the Sky  vs.  First Lensman!
>It's not fair to judge one of the Master's juveniles against first
>rate stuff from Asimov or Doc Smith.

  Reading the list, the choice between the two greats, to me, came
down to "Farmer in the Sky" and "Lion, Witch and the Wardrobe." Those
two had to had the most staying power. I read "Pebble" and "First
Lensman" and they didn't stick as much as the other two.

  "To Serve Man" by Damon Knight leapt out of the short story list. So
did "A Subway Named Mobius," but less so. 

  The only 2000 stuff I've read was Bytor's book "Implements of
Destruction" and RAH_ARC, so I'm open to Forum nominations too.

  In Dramatic presentation... well, there was another totally
forgettable Highlander movie we saw this year. And my own show,
"Earthscape," but that didn't air outside central California.


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18779
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 15:32:33 -0500
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ed Johnson wrote:

> Jake:    What a choice!  Pebble in the Sky  vs.  First Lensman!
> It's not fair to judge one of the Master's juveniles against first
> rate stuff from Asimov or Doc Smith.
>
> Ed J
>

I think it is...since Heinlein's juveniles are amongst his best work.
I think Pebble was OK and I love First Lensman but Farmer is easily
their equal IMO. The attention to detail that went into describing the
colony, the realistic feelings of resentment that Bill had towards his
new family and their slow mellowing into acceptance and love, the
wider picture of the colonists breaking away from earth...all make it
able to go up against any SF book of the time IMO.

Jane



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18780
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:54:05 -0800
Subject: Re: Alfred Bester
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

For the most part, Bester writes good stories, but the logical gaps are so
large that I have difficulty reading them at times. The Stars My
Destination, in particular, annoyed me. Ignoring the sheer illogic of the
method of developing teleportation, his description of what it was like to
use the reflex enhancers, etc., the most annoying thing I found was his
sociology.

In the story, he suggested the idea that women had to be kept in purdah to
protect them from teleporting rapists. This, frankly, is silly. They are in
more danger if they sleep in the same place every night than they are
walking the streets. Who can rape a teleporting woman, save by catching her
by surprise? What she should do is worry less about being on the street, and
more about changing the room she sleeps in nightly.

Filksinger

"Fader" <fader555@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3a9390ea.1500457@news.sff.net...
> This author came up a couple/three months ago, thought I'd let you
> know what I found in Borders the other day.
>
> Reprint of "The Deceivers","redemolished" a collection of shorts,
> essays, & some interviews, including a prologue for The Demolished
> Man, that was cut from the original & "Psychoshop" which was finished
> by Zelazny after Bester's death.
>
> I'm one happy camper, always loved Bester's stuff & this should keep
> me busy for awhile.
>
> They're by ibooks in small trade paperbacks, & I believe I saw "the
> Computer Conection" & The Demolished Man as well.(got those already)
> Here's your chance to fill those holes in your collections.
>
> Fader



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18781
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:57:47 -0800
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I'll take Farmer over both, thank you, though I'll admit Pebble makes it a
bit difficult. First Lensman I can't judge, as I don't like E. E. "Doc"
Smith, for the most part.

Filksinger

"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@home.spamthis.com> wrote in message
news:jt57atoo1novhsm19kdt99m9v20k0lrb0r@4ax.com...
> Jake:    What a choice!  Pebble in the Sky  vs.  First Lensman!
> It's not fair to judge one of the Master's juveniles against first
> rate stuff from Asimov or Doc Smith.
>
> Ed J
>
> On Sun, 4 Mar 2001 23:37:29 -0500, "William J. Keaton"
> <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
> >For those of you looking for nomination ideas...
> >
> >http://www.nesfa.org/hugos00.html
> >
> >and
> >
> >http://www.nesfa.org/hugos50.html
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18782
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 17:21:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



"William J. Keaton" wrote:

> For those of you looking for nomination ideas...
>
> http://www.nesfa.org/hugos00.html
>
> and
>
> http://www.nesfa.org/hugos50.html

OK, I'm looking at the NESFA Retro Hugos site, and I'm confused. I had
taken it from Geo's original post that only 1 Retro would be awarded;
the NESFA listing, OTOH, makes it seem as if a full slate of
retro-categories will be awarded. If *that's* the case, then...

***
Retro-Novel:

Errr... I have to confess I haven't read either _Pebble in the Sky_ or
_First Lensman_ (I know, I know... what can I say? I haven't seen _Butch
Cassidy and the Sundance Kid_ or _The Godfather_, either; there are
obviously gaping holes in my cultural education...), and _Farmer_ was
never one of my favorite RAH books... but then again, it's been a *long*
time since I last re-read it, so maybe I'm not giving it enough credit.
I certainly wouldn't argue with it as a Forum consensus nomination.

Retro-Novella:

Haven't read any of the ones on the NESFA list. Anybody got any further
suggestions? There have to be more than three possibilities, don't
there?

Retro-Novellette:

"The Little Black Bag" (C.M. Kornbluth) is my first choice, and after
that "Okie" (James Blish). I'd also support "Bindlestiff"; I love all
the stories in that series.

Retro-Short Story:

"Scanners Live in Vain" (Cordwainer Smith). A very weird tale, but for
some reason I've never quite put my finger on, I love it.

Retro-Dramatic Presentation:

I assume _Destination Moon_ would be the Forum's consensus choice? (As
an aside... _Treasure Island_? Excuse me?? This is SF??)
***

WRT to NESFA's current list of recommendations, I note that none of the
novels I actually read this year merit even a mention (though _Candle_
gets a nod on the "Other Good Reads" list) <sigh>. OTOH, my choice for
Dramatic Presentation -- _Frequency_ -- was mentioned as a
recommendation (though without a lot of support). One of my favorite
movies of the year was one of the top three NESFA choices, but I'll be
dipped in snot if I can figure out how _Chicken Run_ qualifies as SF.

Some other observations about this thread so far:

* Interesting that the Retros and Dramatic Presentation have generated
almost all the talk so far; don't any of us actually *read* any SF?

* I first encountered most of my Retro choices in SFWA's _Science
Fiction Hall of Fame_ books (a kind of Retro-Nebula anthology series).
If you don't already have 'em, find 'em. No (relatively) young person's
SF library is complete without them.

* Going to the NESFA site reminded me... now that I'm a Connecticut
Yankee, I'm only a few hours down the road from Boskone. I've never done
a con (or anything officially fannish) but maybe I'll give it a whirl
next year.

-JovBill




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18783
From: Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:43:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

> * Interesting that the Retros and Dramatic Presentation have generated
> almost all the talk so far; don't any of us actually *read* any SF?

I read Shadow of the Hegemon by Orson Scott Card last week.  I found it to
be a decent sequel to Ender's Shadow.  I don't read much current SF, unless
highly recommended by someone that I respect.  Mostly I read Card, and Niven
& Pournell new offerings.  I didn't really get into cyberpunk neuromancer
offshoots.  I'm open to suggestions for authors and novels to look for.

Frank Fujita

It might not be gravity that holds us to the Earth, but rather an unknown
force with identical properties. -- Sister Carlotta in Shadow of the Hegemon
by Orson Scott Card



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18784
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2001 17:48:41 -0800
Subject: Death of the X-33
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

NASA has announced that they are cancelling the X-33 project, and will no
longer be attempting to build a similar vehicle.

Wonderful. First they attempt a design that, instead of using tried-and-true
technologies, uses "bleeding edge" technology. They throw in untested
airfoil shapes, untested engines, and untested fuel tanks. A significant
number of experts tell them that tried and true technologies will work, but
their design has too much untested technology. Then, when their untested
airfoil shapes, untested engines, and untested fuel tanks all have problems
one after the other, they claim it can't be done.


For more information:

http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/space/03/02/space.plane/index.html

and

http://www.space.com/missionlaunches/missions/x33_cancel_010301.html

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18785
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 22:57:34 -0500
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Now, Audrey--

     How could you even think I could forget you?  Had I not been
married, I could have been in love.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18786
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2001 23:43:53 -0500
Subject: Special Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

And a special thanks to all of you who hosted me during my latest
sojourn to the West coast.  I visited Las Vegas, Seattle, Soquel (Santa
Cruz), Sacramento, Kennebuck (WA), San Diego, and Honolulu.  Basically,
I caught up on many of the visits that were on my  "I will visit you
someday list".  (Not all were HF.)
    So thanks to Bytor, Julie, Geo, Deb, Lorrita (the only one this trip
I had not previously met in person), and Brian.  Who has news that I
think is his privilege to spread here......

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18787
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 01:59:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Death of the X-33
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3aa441ff.0@news.sff.net...
> NASA has announced that they are cancelling the X-33 project, and will no
> longer be attempting to build a similar vehicle.

Finally.

>
> Wonderful. First they attempt a design that, instead of using
tried-and-true
> technologies, uses "bleeding edge" technology. They throw in untested
> airfoil shapes, untested engines, and untested fuel tanks. A significant
> number of experts tell them that tried and true technologies will work,
but
> their design has too much untested technology. Then, when their untested
> airfoil shapes, untested engines, and untested fuel tanks all have
problems
> one after the other, they claim it can't be done.
>
Exactly. Way too much X in that project. The lifting body shape dictated too
many other design elements, most notably the composite tanks. Lock-Mart
promised way more then they could deliver, probably on the assumption that
NASA would continue business as usual and throws tons more money at them.
Too bad.

And we all know they had a perfectly good program, that got farther along
then X-33 ever did, and they cancelled it on account of a single hydraulic
line failure. (Human error)

One wonders where DC-X would have been about now. DC-Y maybe?


--
WJaKe

http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18788
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 09:26:26 GMT
Subject: Re: Alfred Bester
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 05 Mar 2001 13:12:35 -0500, eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed
Johnson) wrote:

>Fader:  Many, many moons ago I bought and read a couple of Bester's
>collected short stories.  I thought highly of "Starburst" & "The
>Dark Side of the Earth" when I first read these collections.  I also
>enjoyed The Demolished Man almost as much as TSMD.  Both novels left
>mental images that have lasted over a third of a century.  
>
>Ed J  
>(If you like Bester, did you also enjoy R. Matheson's 'Third from
>the Sun' collection?)
>
Don't remember most of the short's titles, the exception being "The
Flowered(ing?) Thundermug" which BC turned me on to & is a fav.

Don't think I've read Matheson's collection, isn't he the one who did
"My Name is Legend" , which was made into The Omega Man ?

The other offbeat author that I really like is Cordwainer Smith, maybe
as much as Bester, he's a great universe maker.

Fader


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18789
From: fader555@aol.com (Fader)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 09:37:40 GMT
Subject: Re: Alfred Bester
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 5 Mar 2001 13:54:05 -0800, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:

>For the most part, Bester writes good stories, but the logical gaps are so
>large that I have difficulty reading them at times. The Stars My
>Destination, in particular, annoyed me. Ignoring the sheer illogic of the
>method of developing teleportation, his description of what it was like to
>use the reflex enhancers, etc., the most annoying thing I found was his
>sociology.
>
Almost all SciFi requires suspention[sp?] of disbelief, he explains it
well enough that it hangs with the rest of the story.

>In the story, he suggested the idea that women had to be kept in purdah to
>protect them from teleporting rapists. This, frankly, is silly. They are in
>more danger if they sleep in the same place every night than they are
>walking the streets. Who can rape a teleporting woman, save by catching her
>by surprise? What she should do is worry less about being on the street, and
>more about changing the room she sleeps in nightly.
>
Not sure I get the reasoning here, the maze that you have to go thru
before you get into people's houses makes the inside of the place
inviolate to "jaunting". As for the reaction itself, it's no stranger
than many of the other social stupidities people have come up with
over the years.

Fader

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18790
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 11:20:26 -0800
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Bill Dauphin wrote:

> "William J. Keaton" wrote:
>
> > For those of you looking for nomination ideas...
> >
> > http://www.nesfa.org/hugos00.html
> >
> > and
> >
> > http://www.nesfa.org/hugos50.html

[snip]

> Retro-Dramatic Presentation:
>
> I assume _Destination Moon_ would be the Forum's consensus choice? (As
> an aside... _Treasure Island_? Excuse me?? This is SF??)
> ***

So long as _Rocket Ship X-M_ which IIRC came out the same year and was
rushed into production to release ahead of _Destination Moon_ and reap the
audience gets no consideration, they can award it to _Treasure Island_ for
all I care; but of course _Destination Moon_ does deserve the award.

I actually remember watching "X-M" with my parents and family in a drive-in
in the back of my father's '48 Chevy. I think I was eight. The production
values weren't significantly better than "Buzz Corbett's Space Patrol," if
that is what the TV series with Cadet "Happy," the 'original space cadet'
was called; and it was so long that it was boring even to an eight-year-old
with stars in his eyes.

David





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18791
From: debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 20:03:52 GMT
Subject: Re: Special Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



>And a special thanks to all of you who hosted me during my latest
>sojourn to the West coast.  I visited Las Vegas, Seattle, Soquel (Santa
>Cruz), Sacramento, Kennebuck (WA), San Diego, and Honolulu.  

  It was great to see you. Sure would like to hear a trip report
(hint)


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18792
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 17:23:35 -0500
Subject: Re: Death of the X-33
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



"William J. Keaton" wrote:

> > Wonderful. First they attempt a design that, instead of using
> tried-and-true
> > technologies, uses "bleeding edge" technology. They throw in untested
> > airfoil shapes, untested engines, and untested fuel tanks. A significant
> > number of experts tell them that tried and true technologies will work,
> but
> > their design has too much untested technology. Then, when their untested
> > airfoil shapes, untested engines, and untested fuel tanks all have
> problems
> > one after the other, they claim it can't be done.
> >
> Exactly. Way too much X in that project.

I generally agree that it's a good thing X-33 was canceled... but I have a
slightly different perspective. The project only had "too much X" because it
was never really treated as a true X-plane from the beginning: A true X-plane
is *supposed* to test and validate bleeding-edge technologies, and in that
context, you *expect* technical setbacks and delays. The problems with the
aerodynamic configuration had been worked out (though at the cost of making the
term "wingless" a hollow mockery) and while the composite tanks had been
abandoned, enough work had been done on weight reduction in other parts of the
structure to make it possible to replace them with metallic tanks without
giving up much (if any) of the original planned flight capability. Something on
the order of 80 to 90 percent of the X-33 structure had been completed, and the
flight propulsion system had successfully begun its qualification testing (note
that entry into qualification testing means that a system has *successfully
completed* its development testing). Yes, there had been technical setbacks,
delays, and cost overruns... but *if viewed as a true X project* X-33 still had
a reasonable chance at success. Note here that many famously successful X
projects also had setbacks and cost overruns: The X-15 -- generally regarded as
the most successful and valuable aerospace research program ever -- actually
began its flight test program with a pair of X-1 engines, because its own much
larger engine wasn't ready.

But unfortunately, NASA never treated X-33 as a true X-plane. Instead, they
always consisdered it part of the development program for an operational
vehicle: the planned (one is almost tempted to say "alleged") commercial
VentureStar. As a V* prototype, X-33 was a spectacular failure. You can afford
delays in a pure research program; you can't when you're trying to get a
product to market. Long before X-33 was finally canceled, it was clear that [a]
V* would probably never be built and [b] even if it were built, it wouldn't
look much like X-33 or use many of those "bleeding edge" technologies (e.g.,
the V* team had switched to metallic tanks long before the composite X-33 tanks
failed at test).

So yes, it's just as well X-33 is gone... but what an awful missed opportunity.

BTW, if you're interested in discussion of issues like this, check out the
Space Policy BBS (http://www.ad-astra.net/BBS/SpacePolicy/). It's nowhere near
as civil as the Forum, and the politics of many of its denizens are pretty far
to the right, even by this group's standards, but there are occasional bits of
worthwhile conversation (plus you'll get to read more of *my* golden opinions!
<vbg>).

> And we all know they had a perfectly good program, that got farther along
> then X-33 ever did, and they cancelled it on account of a single hydraulic
> line failure. (Human error)
>
> One wonders where DC-X would have been about now. DC-Y maybe?

Just to remind you, DC-X wasn't a NASA program. The vehicle was built, and the
original test program operated, by the then SDIO (now BMDO... unless its been
reorged again). NASA inherited the vehicle after its original program was
complete (and after it had been seriously damaged by an inflight explosion),
and after refurbishing it and upgrading some of its systems, funded a series of
additional flights under the name DC-XA (later Clipper Graham, in honor of the
late Gen. Daniel Graham). NASA didn't cancel the program; they simply didn't
have any source of funds to build a new vehicle after the landing gear collapse
and subsequent fire totalled the one they had. Overall, the Government got
about twice as much flight experience out of the DC-X/DC-XA vehicle as
originally planned, so where's the complaint? (And IIRC, the NASA-funded
flights were actually operated by the same McDAC contractor personnel -- Pete
Conrad, et al. -- who had been at the controls for the SDIO flights, so it's
probably not even fair to lay the accident at NASA's feet.) Neither the DC-Y
nor any of the other proposed Delta Clipper series vehicles was ever under any
Government contract to begin with (except perhaps as paper studies), so nobody
"cancelled" them either. McDAC *did* propose a vehicle with clear Delta Clipper
bloodlines as their X-33/RLV offering, but by that time the company was in such
sad organizational shape (and just about to be consumed by Boeing) that it
would've been crazy to give them the contract, no matter how much you like the
Delta Clipper idea.

Oh, BTW, as far as DC-X getting farther along than X-33 ever did... you have to
keep that in perspective of the fact that DC-X's goals were VASTLY more modest.
You could say that the Roton ATV got farther along than either, since it met
all its goals *and* survived its test program intact... but that doesn't mean
it got us any closer to space.

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18793
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 17:20:14 -0500
Subject: Re: Death of the X-33
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

WJake:   I see I'm not the only one who mourned the to death of the
DC-X project.  IIRC, wasn't DC-X, at 40 ft. height the 1/3 scale
test-bed?  "Y" was to be 2/3, or 80 ft. in height with the final
release being a 120' SSTO 'flying pyramid'.  (I loved the videos of
the DC-X in flight!)
     I did sort of expect NASA to be funding the cutting edge
research.  Like new engine design (continuing the Aerospike
development, e.g.)  OR  new composite material design to lighten
tanks and structures alike.  By trying to swallow too much at one
time, they spit out the entire X-33 project.
   I wonder how much would be saved if government money went to
bring down the price per pound into orbit? (CATS).
I've got some radical ideas about reducing the cost of placing small
objects into LEO.  Some fellow named Heinlein came up with a good
idea years ago. . .

Ed J 

On Tue, 6 Mar 2001 01:59:02 -0500, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:

        <snip>
>>
>Exactly. Way too much X in that project. The lifting body shape dictated too
>many other design elements, most notably the composite tanks. Lock-Mart
>promised way more then they could deliver, probably on the assumption that
>NASA would continue business as usual and throws tons more money at them.
>Too bad.
>
>And we all know they had a perfectly good program, that got farther along
>then X-33 ever did, and they cancelled it on account of a single hydraulic
>line failure. (Human error)
>
>One wonders where DC-X would have been about now. DC-Y maybe?



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18794
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2001 18:26:27 -0500
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Frank Fujita wrote:

> I read Shadow of the Hegemon by Orson Scott Card last week.  I found it to
> be a decent sequel to Ender's Shadow.

How are those? I've read, re-read, and loved the original Ender books, but have
not yet read any of the parallel series. Are they worth it?

> I don't read much current SF, unless
> highly recommended by someone that I respect.

Me neither, though I think I probably ought to read more new stuff. Most of my
favorite authors are dead (and therefore not writing much new stuff <g>) or in
that stage of their careers in which they can afford to take a LOOOOOOONG time
to put out something new (e.g., Niven and Nive/Pournelle). I think it's time to
get some new, younger, more prolific favorites. Since we pretty much all are
"someone I respect" for each other here, maybe we should have an occasional
"New SF I Recommend" thread. That assumes, of course, that at least *some* of
us read new stuff... <g>

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18795
From: Frank Fujita" <ffujita@iusb.edu>
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2001 19:16:10 -0500
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3AA5721D.50E6FD00@ix.netcom.com...
> > I read Shadow of the Hegemon by Orson Scott Card last week.  I found it
to
> > be a decent sequel to Ender's Shadow.
> How are those? I've read, re-read, and loved the original Ender books, but
have
> not yet read any of the parallel series. Are they worth it?

For me, Ender's Game was best, Speaker for the Dead was very different but
also excellent--second best, then a noticeable step down to Ender's Shadow
which is almost tied with Shadow of the Hegemon, Xenocide is another
noticeable step down from those two, and I really didn't care much for
Children of the Mind.
Bean's story in Ender's Shadow is very different from Ender's story, no game
playing -- I was skeptical of how good the story of another person going
through Battle School could be, but I was impressed especially considering
that I knew what the ending was going to be.  In Shadow of the Hegemon,
Peter Wiggin who is Ender's older brother, starts to interact with the real
world.  The villain is somewhat weaker than I'd hope for -- too much like
the villains in the Seventh Son series.

Frank Fujita



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18796
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 02:32:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Death of the X-33
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote in
>
>
> But unfortunately, NASA never treated X-33 as a true X-plane. Instead,
they
> always consisdered it part of the development program for an operational
> vehicle: the planned (one is almost tempted to say "alleged") commercial
> VentureStar. As a V* prototype, X-33 was a spectacular failure.

Yes, I agree. I don't know that NASA ever officially admitted that X-33 was
a development program for V-star.

> BTW, if you're interested in discussion of issues like this, check out the
> Space Policy BBS (http://www.ad-astra.net/BBS/SpacePolicy/). It's nowhere
near
> as civil as the Forum,

I used to hang out in sci.space.policy. Nowhere NEAR as civil as the HF!

>
> Just to remind you, DC-X wasn't a NASA program. The vehicle was built, and
the

I know. But they were running it when it finally ended, and Mac-Dac did
propose a DC-X/VTVL vehicle when NASA selected the X-33 program. I think it
fell victim to Mac-Dac's financial instability at the time, (as you stated)
and NASA's resistance to something that was Not Invented Here.

>
> Oh, BTW, as far as DC-X getting farther along than X-33 ever did... you
have to
> keep that in perspective of the fact that DC-X's goals were VASTLY more
modest.

DC-X flew. Multiple times. X-33 never got to the point where they had a
complete vehicle.
And I don't blame NASA for the accident, at least not directly. Accidents
will happen in a low-budget, single vehicle program. I do blame NASA and DoD
for giving up on a program that (IMHO) had been such an incredible success.

> You could say that the Roton ATV got farther along than either, since it
met
> all its goals *and* survived its test program intact... but that doesn't
mean
> it got us any closer to space.

Maybe not directly. But I'd like to think that each of these programs has
gotten us a little closer. Even if it only shows a path down which not to
proceed. I really hope that NASA continues work on linear aerospike engines,
it's the one technology in X-33 that I feel holds great promise. And I have
a feeling that the spin has gone out of Rotary Rocket, with the replacement
of founder Gary Hudson as CEO. I would love to be proved wrong.

I do have to admit that I haven't been following the space policy arena the
way I used to. Perhaps I need to drop in on ad-astra.net every now and then.

--
WJaKe

http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18797
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 02:39:42 -0500
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote

> OK, I'm looking at the NESFA Retro Hugos site, and I'm confused. I had
> taken it from Geo's original post that only 1 Retro would be awarded;
> the NESFA listing, OTOH, makes it seem as if a full slate of
> retro-categories will be awarded. If *that's* the case, then...

LA started the Retro-Hugos (I believe) and they did award a full slate.

>
> * Interesting that the Retros and Dramatic Presentation have generated
> almost all the talk so far; don't any of us actually *read* any SF?
>

I admit that I read very few novels these days. But I do read short fiction,
from Analog, Artemis <an excellent magazine, I must commend Ian when I see
him> and Absolute Magnitude. So I'll be winging it on the long stuff, and
expressing my various preferences in the shorter fiction.

--
WJaKe

http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18798
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 03:08:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Death of the X-33
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



"William J. Keaton" wrote:

> > BTW, if you're interested in discussion of issues like this, check out the
> > Space Policy BBS (http://www.ad-astra.net/BBS/SpacePolicy/). It's nowhere
> near
> > as civil as the Forum,
>
> I used to hang out in sci.space.policy. Nowhere NEAR as civil as the HF!

The link I provided is for a web-based BBS that was an adjunct to the _Space
Policy Digest_ webzine 'til the magazine folded. I've never checked out
sci.space.policy, but I gather it's largely the same cast of characters (other
than me, of course).

> I think it
> fell victim to Mac-Dac's financial instability at the time, (as you stated)
> and NASA's resistance to something that was Not Invented Here.

I really don't think NIH was a factor: Both the McDAC and Rockwell/Boeing X-33
proposals had more homegrown NASA stuff in them than LockMart's did. Both of
LockMart's competitors were planning to use SSMEs, and the Rockwell proposal
has a *significant* amount of Shuttle heritage in the airframe.

> > Oh, BTW, as far as DC-X getting farther along than X-33 ever did... you
> have to
> > keep that in perspective of the fact that DC-X's goals were VASTLY more
> modest.
>
> DC-X flew. Multiple times. X-33 never got to the point where they had a
> complete vehicle.

Agreed that in that sense, DC-X went farther. But space enthusiasts tend to
forget how truly modest the DC-X goals were. As a comparison, Kelly Space and
Technology, whose spaceplane concept involves towed launch, successfully
completed a series of tests involving tow-launching a surplus QF-102 airplane.
Those tests were about as close to flying their proposed spacecraft as the DC-X
flights were to flying an operational Delta Clipper vehicle (which is to say,
not very close at all). One of the posters on the Space Policy BBS likes to
call DC-X the Single-Stage-to-20 kft program.

> I do blame NASA and DoD
> for giving up on a program that (IMHO) had been such an incredible success.

But they *didn't* give up on it. They finished it, and it was (within its
modest goals) a rousing success. There was never any plan for the Government to
build further copies of DC-X or *any* of the follow-on vehicles in any case. If
anything, the Government's investment in DC-X should've given McDAC a leg up on
the X-33 competition.

> I really hope that NASA continues work on linear aerospike engines,
> it's the one technology in X-33 that I feel holds great promise.

I agree. But the engine configuration is pretty specific to the airframe
configuration; it's hard to see what anyone can do with the X-33 engines other
than build an X-33 (beyond simply accumulating more ground test data, of
course).

> And I have
> a feeling that the spin has gone out of Rotary Rocket, with the replacement
> of founder Gary Hudson as CEO. I would love to be proved wrong.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I'm afraid the only question left to be answered
about Rotary is the disposition of its assets. At one point they were within
hours of a sheriff's sale for back taxes. They managed to pay the tax bill, but
will probably (may already have) sell off the company's remaining assets
(including the ATV) and intellectual property (unless some of the IP is owned
by Hudson or his partner personally). In a way, they were the X-33 of the
commercial startups: too much X.

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18799
From: Brian E. Scherrer <brianes@cts.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 03:54:34 -0800
Subject: Re: Special Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote:

>And a special thanks to all of you who hosted me during my latest
>sojourn to the West coast.  I visited Las Vegas, Seattle, Soquel (Santa
>Cruz), Sacramento, Kennebuck (WA), San Diego, and Honolulu.  Basically,
>I caught up on many of the visits that were on my  "I will visit you
>someday list".  (Not all were HF.)

BC, it was our pleasure.

>    So thanks to Bytor, Julie, Geo, Deb, Lorrita (the only one this trip
>I had not previously met in person), and Brian.  Who has news that I
>think is his privilege to spread here......

:-)

Okay, you've shamed me into it.  I'm not going to do it now though, at
0500.  Maybe I'll kick off a new roll call thread this weekend.

A big 'hello' to the rest of you :-)  I've been quiet for awhile (for
reasons that may be somewhat self-explanatory), but I'm still around.

Regards,
  -- Brian

Regards,
  -- Brian

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18800
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 08:00:10 -0500
Subject: Internet Voting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

And another point for Big Charlie's patent--

From  AP  3/7/01  (Fair Use believed appropriate)
------------------------------------------------------------
Report: Web Voting Not the Answer

By WILL LESTER
..c The Associated Press


WASHINGTON (AP) - Voting through the Internet from home or the workplace
has not yet received widespread acceptance. But don't tell that to
Arizona Democrats.

They're very pleased with the heavy participation and enthusiasm for
their March primary that pioneered the use of Internet voting.

``It was extremely successful,'' said Cortland Coleman, executive
director of the Arizona Democrats. ``It went better than we thought it
could have gone. There were no security breaches.''

Arizona Democrats have had inquiries from as far away as Japan and from
many U.S. county and municipal governments about their effort, he said.

A report commissioned by the National Science Foundation and released
Tuesday said voting through the Internet from home or the workplace
should not be allowed in the near future. That method of voting still
faces significant questions about security, reliability and social
effects, the report said.

The study, which was requested by the White House in December 1999,
comes as elections officials consider new technology after the problems
of the 2000 elections.

The report urged elections officials to resist pressures to embrace
remote Internet voting systems as the technological cure for the
problems that afflicted the presidential election in November, such as
faulty voting systems and inconsistent standards for ballot counting.

Internet voting at polling places, however, could offer such benefits as
convenience and efficiency, while allowing elections officials to
control security and technology, the report said. It recommended
poll-site experiments.

The report was far more skeptical about voting from home or the
workplace.

``E-voting requires a much greater level of security than e-commerce -
it's not like buying a book over the Internet,'' said C.D. Mote Jr.,
president of the University of Maryland and chairman of the committee
that studied the issue. ``Remote Internet voting technology will not be
able to meet this standard for years to come.''

At least a dozen states have legislation pending that requests studies
of Internet voting. Several states have run election experiments in
selected counties to test the idea.

Members of the committee said Arizona's Internet voting did not meet
their security standards.

Voter turnout has dropped significantly over the last few decades, and
Internet voting, with its convenience and advantages for the disabled,
has been hailed by some as an answer.

Much of the interest in online elections centered on convenience, the
report said, but after the 2000 elections, the focus is more on
reliability.

``The security problems that could arise might well undermine the
legitimacy of the electoral process,'' said David Cheney of the
nonpartisan Internet Policy Institute.

The report cautioned that Internet-based voting registration poses ``a
risk to the integrity of the voting process.''

The committee urged more study on security and encryption techniques.
And it urged political scientists to consider how Internet voting away
from the polling place would affect participation and the character of
the electorate.

``There are far too many people who don't know how to use computers,''
observed Roy Saltman, a computer consultant who served on the panel.
``People who have computers already are likely to be more educated.''

On the Net:

Internet Policy Institute: http://www.internetpolicy.org/

AP-NY-03-07-01 0217EST

Copyright 2001 The Associated Press. The information contained in the AP
news report may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or otherwise
distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18801
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 08:12:03 -0500
Subject: Re: Alfred Bester
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Fader wrote:

> Don't remember most of the short's titles, the exception being "The
> Flowered(ing?) Thundermug" which BC turned me on to & is a fav.
>
> Fader

     "The Flowered Thundermug".  A vastly underrated story.  I don't know
if it ever appeared anywhere but in that collection.
--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18802
From: LORRITA  MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2001 13:15:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Special Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

As I said privately, come again when you can stay longer.  I enjoyed meeting
and hosting you.

To the group, BC is a fine gentleman who let me walk all over his thoughts
and interrupt him unmercifully.


--
Later,

`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3AA46B09.9C9281BF@aol.com...
> And a special thanks to all of you who hosted me during my latest
> sojourn to the West coast.  I visited Las Vegas, Seattle, Soquel (Santa
> Cruz), Sacramento, Kennebuck (WA), San Diego, and Honolulu.  Basically,
> I caught up on many of the visits that were on my  "I will visit you
> someday list".  (Not all were HF.)
>     So thanks to Bytor, Julie, Geo, Deb, Lorrita (the only one this trip
> I had not previously met in person), and Brian.  Who has news that I
> think is his privilege to spread here......
>
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> "Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
> they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney
>
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18803
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:18:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



"William J. Keaton" wrote:

> ...Artemis <an excellent magazine, I must commend Ian when I see
> him>...

Really? It exists? I used to check the Artemis Society website almost daily,
'til I began to believe that there was nothing there *but* the website. Have
they started to show signs of actual (as opposed to virtual) life? I confess I
doubted _Artemis_ would ever see print; when did it being production? Could you
give us a quick rundown on its content, quality, on-schedule performance, etc.?

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18804
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2001 20:24:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Internet Voting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Charles Graft quoted:

> "Internet voting at polling places, however, could offer such benefits as
> convenience and efficiency, while allowing elections officials to
> control security and technology, the report said. It recommended
> poll-site experiments."

I assume by "Internet voting at polling places" they actually mean an IP-based voting system on
an isolated network; IOW, int*ra*net voting. Is that along the lines of your patent, BC?

> The report was far more skeptical about voting from home or the
> workplace.

I should say so! *I'm* certainly skeptical about it, too.

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18805
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 02:32:34 -0500
Subject: Re: Forum Hugo Nominations
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:3AA6DDC7.D4251A61@ix.netcom.com...
>
>
> "William J. Keaton" wrote:
>
> > ...Artemis <an excellent magazine, I must commend Ian when I see
> > him>...
>
> Really? It exists

Yep. I hold the first three issues in my hand. Spring, Summer and Autumn
2000. I picked them up at the Worldcon in Chicago last year. Alas, no
Winter/Spring 2001 issue, although I thought I started a subscription while
I was there.

For all the content details, go here:
http://www.lrcpubs.com/artemismagazine.html they have links to the ToC for
all issues. I feel the stories are as good as any you will find in Analog,
F&SF, etc. The science articles are good as well, and I don't feel like I
need to be a physics grad student to understand them. (unlike Analog!)
Unfortunately, it's only 64 pages, a little thin.

It looks like The Artemis Society web pages are a little stagnant, that's
another project I haven't kep up on in a while.

--
WJaKe

http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18806
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 02:34:22 -0500
Subject: Re: Special Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Brian E. Scherrer" <brianes@cts.com> wrote

> A big 'hello' to the rest of you :-)  I've been quiet for awhile (for
> reasons that may be somewhat self-explanatory), but I'm still around.
>
> Regards,
>   -- Brian
>
> Regards,
>   -- Brian
>

Busy composing that intriguing .sig, eh? <g>

--
WJaKe

http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake

(I should talk!)



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18807
From: Brian E. Scherrer <brianes@cts.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 03:53:59 -0800
Subject: Re: Special Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:

>
>"Brian E. Scherrer" <brianes@cts.com> wrote
>
>> A big 'hello' to the rest of you :-)  I've been quiet for awhile (for
>> reasons that may be somewhat self-explanatory), but I'm still around.
>>
>> Regards,
>>   -- Brian
>>
>> Regards,
>>   -- Brian
>>
>
>Busy composing that intriguing .sig, eh? <g>

Ya gotta admit; at least I'm *consistent* ;-)

Regards,
  -- Brian

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18808
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 10:44:50 -0500
Subject: Re: Special Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3aa78105.0@news.sff.net>, Brian E. Scherrer writes...
> "William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
> 
> >
> >"Brian E. Scherrer" <brianes@cts.com> wrote
> >
> >> A big 'hello' to the rest of you :-)  I've been quiet for awhile (for
> >> reasons that may be somewhat self-explanatory), but I'm still around.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>   -- Brian
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >>   -- Brian
> >>
> >
> >Busy composing that intriguing .sig, eh? <g>
> 
> Ya gotta admit; at least I'm *consistent* ;-)
> 
> Regards,
>   -- Brian
> 

Well, no.  If you were consistent, you would have used it again.  ;-)

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18809
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 14:25:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Internet Voting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JovBill--

     My belief is that they are referring to real time connections
between the polling places and the recording (county courthouse) place.
This is the approach tried by the first company that bought my patent
rights; I felt the benefits did not outweigh the disadvantages,
primarily that of having to support a network used only a very few times
a year and security.  But the internet was not a big factor at the time.

     So I took a great deal of satisfaction in that the company that
bought out the rights is using a system much closer to my original
concept.

     My system as envisioned has local master/slave communications
between the actual voting machine (screen and buttons) and each
precinct's controller; with current technology it might be economic to
use stand alone systems.  The master/slave communications could have
been a local ethernet, but I was envisioning a hub and spoke system.

     Again the technology had changed enough since I developed the
original concept (1991) that the hardware could well be a bit different.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18810
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:06:26 -0800
Subject: Re: Election reform
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I just reread this, and realize that I completely misunderstood BC's
comment. I took it as starting with "I don't agree...." or "I disagree....",
not "I don't disagree...."

Filksinger

"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3aa0173a.0@news.sff.net...
>
> "Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:3AA00A5D.C1269D5B@aol.com...
> > Filksinger wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > I don't think drug companies should get special priviledges here.
> Instead, I
> > > think there should be a clause in patent law that says that if the
> > > government requires a review process on a patented idea, the patent
> starts
> > > counting from the moment I am able to legally produce the product.
> > >
> > > Filksinger
> >
> >      I don't disagree with your approach at all.
> >
> >     One of Indianapolis's largest employers (and one of my biggest
> customers
> > over the years) is Eli Lilly.  I have watched their stock yo-yo over the
> years
> > as drugs come to market and later the patents run out.   Medicinal
> research is a
> > high risk field with a very small chance of any given project getting to
> > market.  Then if you do hit something in demand,  you hear "greedy drug
> > companies should not make a profit on the misery of  patients".  The
fact
> that
> > that profit is what made the drug available in the first place is
ignored.
> (How
> > many advanced in pharmacology come out of "socialized medicine"
systems?)
> >
> >      Pharmaceutical stocks as a group are publicly traded for anyone who
> wants a
> > part of the "obscene profits".  Their returns are not spectacular in the
> long
> > run.
>
> I don't understand. You are acting as if my suggestion does not benefit
the
> drug companies, yet it is specifically designed to benefit them, _and
anyone
> in the same boat_.
>
> What, exactly, is it with which you disagree?
>
> Filksinger
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18811
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:09:11 -0800
Subject: Re: Special Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Not that I'm feeling left out or anything, but did this get mentioned on the
HF sometime when I missed it? I would have loved meeting you in person, and
having a good excuse to visit with bytor, too. (Until I have a car again,
he's a three hour commute from my house.)

Filksinger

"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3AA46B09.9C9281BF@aol.com...
> And a special thanks to all of you who hosted me during my latest
> sojourn to the West coast.  I visited Las Vegas, Seattle, Soquel (Santa
> Cruz), Sacramento, Kennebuck (WA), San Diego, and Honolulu.  Basically,
> I caught up on many of the visits that were on my  "I will visit you
> someday list".  (Not all were HF.)
>     So thanks to Bytor, Julie, Geo, Deb, Lorrita (the only one this trip
> I had not previously met in person), and Brian.  Who has news that I
> think is his privilege to spread here......
>
> --
> <<Big Charlie>>
>
> "Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
> they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney
>
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18812
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:15:04 -0800
Subject: Re: Internet Voting
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3AA630DA.21BB61C@aol.com...
> And another point for Big Charlie's patent--
>
> From  AP  3/7/01  (Fair Use believed appropriate)
> ------------------------------------------------------------
> Report: Web Voting Not the Answer
>
> By WILL LESTER
> .c The Associated Press
<snip>
> ``The security problems that could arise might well undermine the
> legitimacy of the electoral process,'' said David Cheney of the
> nonpartisan Internet Policy Institute.
>
> The report cautioned that Internet-based voting registration poses ``a
> risk to the integrity of the voting process.''
>
> The committee urged more study on security and encryption techniques.
> And it urged political scientists to consider how Internet voting away
> from the polling place would affect participation and the character of
> the electorate.

What worries me, more than security or encryption, is the fact that they
barely acknowlege the existence of how this might change who votes and who
doesn't, and completely miss the risks of non-secret voting.

"Today, our church will help people vote by setting up computers in our
meeting hall. You can vote right here at church. Don't worry, we really
aren't looking over your shoulder to make certain you are voting 'correctly'
for/against the gay rights bill/abortion bill/Fundamentalist minister vs
libertine, uh, Liberal, etc."

Filksinger

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18813
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:34:55 -0800
Subject: CD Ripping Software
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I have just purchased an inexpensive Samsung CD burner, and so far like it.
I intend to make copies of all my CDs, so that they won't get ruined, and my
tapes, same reason. However, I found that it doesn't alway copy properly. I
am still trying to determine if this is the recorder's fault, or the disk
was read incorrectly.

In my attempts to find better CD ripping software with built-in error
detection and correction, I have discovered WinDAC, which costs money, and
CD Paranoia, which is supposed to be rock solid and recover even badly
scratched disks, but only runs on Linux.

So, does anybody know of any audio CD extraction software that has
especially good error correction and runs on Windows?

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18814
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:38:05 -0800
Subject: The Principality of Sealand
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Anybody heard of this place? According to the information I have, it may
well qualify as the world's smallest sovereign nation. It has been around
for years, well before some of the recent attempts to create a sovereign
nation floating around out there, and seems to have a halfway decent claim
to such sovereignity, as well as, until recently, the agreement of the
courts of the UK, where the citizens originally came from and who also built
the platform in the first place.

http://www.sealandgov.com/

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18815
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:40:02 -0800
Subject: Letter from California
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

This just in. Author unknown at this time.

Filksinger

************
Washington State residents: Today's earthquake was just a warning.

Now that we have your attention, sell us your power, return our
sunshine and take back your rain...we'll take back our earthquakes.

The People of California




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18816
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:23:28 -0800
Subject: An Interesting Quote
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Normally, I'd have merely smiled, but given that we are discussing the DC-X
right now:

From: shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) Ms. Shafer knows two things
about aircraft propulsion.
   1. Some aircraft have propellers, some don't.
   2. Some aircraft without propellers have afterburners, some don't.
Ms. Shafer has tried to keep this pristine ignorance intact, but it's
difficult when she keeps being assigned to projects like the F-15 HIDEC
(Highly-Integrated Digital Engine Technology), NASP, and the DC-X.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18817
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:13:15 GMT
Subject: Re: CD Ripping Software
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>So, does anybody know of any audio CD extraction software that has
>especially good error correction and runs on Windows?
>

I use Audiograbber.  I don't know about the error correction; it was
cheap, and allowed me to make a mix CD fairly quickly.  I went more by
the interface.  I do remember that you had the choice of ripping codec
to use with it, so YMMV.
http://www.audiograbber.com-us.net/
There's a freeware version that lets you rip a percentage of a CD
(randomized by track)  and is otherwise fully functional.

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18818
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 00:13:15 GMT
Subject: Re: The Principality of Sealand
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:38:05 -0800, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:

>Anybody heard of this place? 

I'd read of it.  An interesting idea.  Napster should located their
servers there. ;)

JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18819
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 15:23:28 -0800
Subject: An Interesting Quote
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Normally, I'd have merely smiled, but given that we are discussing the DC-X
right now:

From: shafer@skipper.dfrf.nasa.gov (Mary Shafer) Ms. Shafer knows two things
about aircraft propulsion.
   1. Some aircraft have propellers, some don't.
   2. Some aircraft without propellers have afterburners, some don't.
Ms. Shafer has tried to keep this pristine ignorance intact, but it's
difficult when she keeps being assigned to projects like the F-15 HIDEC
(Highly-Integrated Digital Engine Technology), NASP, and the DC-X.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18820
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:50:41 -0800
Subject: New Superconductors
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Plastic superconductors. Not high-temperature, unfortunately, but plastic.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/review/2001-03-08-plastic.htm

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18821
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 16:53:41 -0800
Subject: Re: The Principality of Sealand
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3aa81fbb.859314348@news.sff.net...
> On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:38:05 -0800, "Filksinger"
> <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>
> >Anybody heard of this place?
>
> I'd read of it.  An interesting idea.  Napster should located their
> servers there. ;)

Actually, someone wants to create a OpenNap server there. He says it will
cost about $15,000, and is hoping for donations from people who want to tell
the RIAA and Justice Department to go to Hell.

Unfortunately for me, I have never found a single piece of filk on any
file-sharing software or server _except_ Napster, on a Napster server.
Nobody else is big enough, I guess. Unfortunately, about 90% of all recorded
filk can be obtained nowhere else.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18822
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 17:26:45 -0800
Subject: Re: CD Ripping Software
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3aa81edb.859090737@news.sff.net...
>
> >So, does anybody know of any audio CD extraction software that has
> >especially good error correction and runs on Windows?
> >
>
> I use Audiograbber.  I don't know about the error correction; it was
> cheap, and allowed me to make a mix CD fairly quickly.  I went more by
> the interface.  I do remember that you had the choice of ripping codec
> to use with it, so YMMV.
> http://www.audiograbber.com-us.net/
> There's a freeware version that lets you rip a percentage of a CD
> (randomized by track)  and is otherwise fully functional.

Audiograbber isn't, as best I can tell, an improvement over what I have. I
can, if I want, rip CDs using Winamp, for example, or RealJukebox, or a lot
of freeware programs. I was just very interested in using CD Paranoia
because of its reputed ability to accurately read almost any CD, no matter
how scratched, and warn you about any glitch, and was disappointed when I
found out it was *nix only.

Likely, it was just a bit of bad luck, or a glitch in the burner, with which
ripping software can't help. So far, when I try to use it, I run into stupid
glitches in my _other_ software and equipment often as not. Just last night,
I shut off all background programs and tried to make a new copy of the CD I
had problems with the first time. When I returned this morning, it turns out
that even though Task Manager was disabled the night before _and was still
disabled_, scandisk had still run right in the middle of trying to copy.
Inexplicable _and_ annoying.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18823
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 18:14:50 -0800
Subject: For All You Tech Junkies
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

For all of you who want the latest in tech gadgets, try this:
http://www.comtrad.com/

The link that got me to this lead to the following:

http://www.comtrad.com/cfusion/template/makepage.cfm?prod_name=iGlasses&site
=85124&branch=unshocked&category=0&product_base_id=119&sourceid=002938462426
87432267

I knew it was coming. I even knew it could be done now, if they chose. Well,
now it has.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18824
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2001 18:18:04 -0800
Subject: Government Conspiracy, Anyone?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Here's the latest in conspiracy fads.

http://www.usatoday.com/weather/science/2001-03-07-contrails.htm

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18825
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 19:52:21 -0800
Subject: Re: Letter from California
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Filksinger wrote:

> This just in. Author unknown at this time.
>
> Filksinger
>
> ************
> Washington State residents: Today's earthquake was just a warning.
>
> Now that we have your attention, sell us your power, return our
> sunshine and take back your rain...we'll take back our earthquakes.
>
> The People of California

Blatant and untrue propaganda! The real truth is this press release:

David (from sunny Southern California)

                    Microsoft Tests Nuclear Device

 MICROSOFT TESTS NUCLEAR DEVICE AT SECRET OLYMPIA FACILITY

 REDMOND (BNN)--World leaders reacted with stunned silence as
 Microsoft Corp. (MSFT) conducted an underground nuclear test at a
 secret facility in Washington state. The device, exploded at
 10:55 am PDT (1:55 pm EDT) today, was timed to coincide with
 talks between Microsoft and the US Department of Justice over
 possible antitrust action.

 "Microsoft is going to defend its right to market its products by
 any and all necessary means," said Microsoft CEO Bill Gates. "Not
 that I'm anti-government" he continued, "but there would be few tears
 shed in the computer industry if Washington were engulfed in a bath
 of nuclear fire."

 Scientists pegged the explosion at around 100 kilotons. "I nearly
 dropped my latte when I saw the seismometer" explained University of
 Washington geophysicist Dr. Whoops Blammover, "At first I thought it
 was Mt. Rainier, and I was thinking, damn, there goes the mountain
 bike vacation."

 In Washington, President Bush announced the US Government would
 boycott all Microsoft products indefinitely.  Minutes later, the
 President reversed his decision. "We've tried sanctions since
 lunchtime, and they don't work," said the President.  Instead, the
 administration will initiate a policy of "constructive engagement"
 with Microsoft.

 Microsoft's Chief Technology Officer Nathan Myrhvold said the test
 justified Microsoft's recent acquisition of the Hanford Nuclear
 Reservation from the US Government. Not only did Microsoft acquire
 "kilograms of weapons grade plutonium" in the deal, said Myrhvold,
 "but we've finally found a place to dump those millions of unsold
 copies of Microsoft Bob."

 Myrhvold warned users not to replace Microsoft NT products with rival
 operating systems. "I can neither confirm nor deny the existence of a
 Radioisotope Thermoelectric Generator inside of every Pentium III
 microprocessor," said Myrhvold, "but anyone who installs an OS
 written by a bunch of long-hairs on the Internet is going to get what
 they deserve."

 The existence of an RTG in each Pentium III microprocessor would
 explain why the microprocessors, made by the Intel Corporation, run
 so hot.  The  Intel chips "put out more heat than they draw in
 electrical power" said Prof. E. E. Thymes of MIT. "This should
 finally dispel those stories about cold fusion."

 Rumors suggest a second weapons development project is underway in
 California, headed by Microsoft rival Sun Microsystems. "They're
 doing all of the development work in Java," said one source close to
 the project.  The development of a delivery system is said to be
 holding up progress. "Write once, bomb anywhere is still a dream at
 the moment."

 Meanwhile, in Cupertino, California, Apple interim-CEO Steve Jobs was
 rumored to be in discussion with Oracle CEO Larry Ellison about
 deploying Apple's Newton technology against Microsoft. "Newton was
 the biggest bomb the Valley has developed in years," said one
 hardware engineer. "I'd hate to be around when they drop that product
 a second time."





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18826
From: Catherine Hampton <xzm@hrweb.org>
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2001 20:08:27 -0800
Subject: Re: Letter from California
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Thu, 8 Mar 2001 14:40:02 -0800, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:

>This just in. Author unknown at this time.
>
>Filksinger
>
>************
>Washington State residents: Today's earthquake was just a warning.
>
>Now that we have your attention, sell us your power, return our
>sunshine and take back your rain...we'll take back our earthquakes.
>
>The People of California

YESSSS!!!

(From a 13-year resident of the Great State of California) ;>


--
Ariel (aka Catherine Hampton) <ariel@tempest.boxmail.com>
===========================================================
Home Page          *          <http://www.hrweb.org/ariel/>
Human Rights Web         *          <http://www.hrweb.org/>
Icon Wall          *             <http://www.iconwall.org/>
Kovalevo Children's Home    *    <http://www.kovalevo.org/>
REVEAL               *             <http://www.reveal.org/>
The Spam Bouncer       *      <http://www.spambouncer.org/>

(Please use this address for replies -- the address in my header is a
spam trap.)

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18827
From: Dean White" <WhiteD@telepath.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:13:28 -0600
Subject: Re: For All You Tech Junkies
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3aa83ca4.0@news.sff.net...
> For all of you who want the latest in tech gadgets, try this:
> http://www.comtrad.com/
>
> The link that got me to this lead to the following:
>
>
http://www.comtrad.com/cfusion/template/makepage.cfm?prod_name=iGlasses&si
te
>
=85124&branch=unshocked&category=0&product_base_id=119&sourceid=0029384624
26
> 87432267
>
> I knew it was coming. I even knew it could be done now, if they chose.
Well,
> now it has.
>
> Filksinger
>

The last time I looked at this tech it was to expensive and the goggles
were heavy and that was a year ago.  What I'm waiting for is a version
with at least 1280 x 1028 or better at under $500.  My guess is that it
will take another couple of years.  With these a virtual keyboard and
small processor with a high speed wireless connection I can do most all my
work anywhere I can access the Internet.  And I think this kind of package
is less then 5 years away.

--
          Dean White
www.DeanWhite.net



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18828
From: Dean White" <WhiteD@telepath.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 10:22:46 -0600
Subject: Applications I have written that are freeware
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

If anyone is interested I have built several programs for my own use and
have made available as freeware.

http://www.deanwhite.net/Base/Index.asp?PageID=Work

Actually, my favorite is the Funny Page application, it replaces the only
part of the local paper that's worth reading and without cutting down any
trees.
--
          Dean White
www.DeanWhite.net



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18829
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2001 14:15:56 -0500
Subject: Re: For All You Tech Junkies
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Filksinger wrote:

> For all of you who want the latest in tech gadgets, try this:
> http://www.comtrad.com/

One of the products listed is a "Zen Alarm Clock." Now, I'm no Zen master, but
doesn't that concept seem a tiny bit self-contradictory? ;^)

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18830
From: Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:04:17 -0500
Subject: Re: For All You Tech Junkies
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3AA92BEB.E9D59DB4@ix.netcom.com>, Bill Dauphin writes...
> 
> 
> Filksinger wrote:
> 
> > For all of you who want the latest in tech gadgets, try this:
> > http://www.comtrad.com/
> 
> One of the products listed is a "Zen Alarm Clock." Now, I'm no Zen master, but
> doesn't that concept seem a tiny bit self-contradictory? ;^)

Ummon said, "The world is vast and wide.  Why do you put on your seven-
piece robe at the sound of the bell?"

Mumon's Comment... Granted you are free, just tell me: Does the sound 
come to the ear or does the ear go to the sound?  If both sound and 
silence die away, at such juncture how could you talk of Zen?  While 
listening with your ear, you cannot tell.  When hearing with your eye, 
you are truly intimate.

Sekida goes on to note, regarding the enlightened man, "when he puts on 
his robe at the sound of the bell, he is indeed restricted; but since he 
is also acting in positive samadhi, he is also perfectly free.  Who would 
not say, with Huxley, 'Let me be wound up every day like a watch to go 
right faithfully and I ask no better freedom'?"

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18831
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 13:56:46 -0800
Subject: Re: Letter from California
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Catherine Hampton" <xzm@hrweb.org> wrote in message
news:0plgatc15bcq74l6o9tvacp5ph1u6cth73@4ax.com...
<snip>
>
> YESSSS!!!
>
> (From a 13-year resident of the Great State of California) ;>
>
>
Ariel, I don't recall seeing you here before, so, Welcome!

Always nice to see a new face, um, I mean, fresh meat.

No, wait a minute....

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18832
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 14:02:34 -0800
Subject: Re: For All You Tech Junkies
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Dean White" <WhiteD@telepath.com> wrote in message
news:3aa90128.0@news.sff.net...
<snip>
> The last time I looked at this tech it was to expensive and the goggles
> were heavy and that was a year ago.

Still true on the expensive part. I don't know about the weight. I have
assumed these were out for some time, but this is the first time I have seen
them.

>  What I'm waiting for is a version
> with at least 1280 x 1028 or better at under $500.  My guess is that it
> will take another couple of years.

Probably. This is intended for TV resolutions. Weak for the DVD, and much
lower resolution than you want (which is much higher than DVD).

>  With these a virtual keyboard and
> small processor with a high speed wireless connection I can do most all my
> work anywhere I can access the Internet.  And I think this kind of package
> is less then 5 years away.

Probably, but I don't expect much from virtual keyboards at first. Humans
much prefer keyboards and other similar tools with physical feedback, and a
virtual keyboard, at this time, only gives visual feedback, SFAIK. It is
very hard to do touch typing without touch.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18833
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:34:50 -0800
Subject: Very Punny Stuff
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Scientists have now found what is belived to be the part of your brain that
allows you to understand puns.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1185000/1185972.stm

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18834
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:00:34 GMT
Subject: Re: Very Punny Stuff
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:34:50 -0800, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:

>Scientists have now found what is belived to be the part of your brain that
>allows you to understand puns.
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1185000/1185972.stm
>
>Filksinger
>
I dunno, I think it's still a gray matter.

JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18835
From: SynABit@kc.invalid (Dennis Doms)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 00:58:38 GMT
Subject: Re: For All You Tech Junkies
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3aa83ca4.0@news.sff.net>, "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
wrote:

>For all of you who want the latest in tech gadgets, try this:
>http://www.comtrad.com/
>
>The link that got me to this lead to the following:
>
>http://www.comtrad.com/cfusion/template/makepage.cfm?prod_name=iGlasses&site
>=85124&branch=unshocked&category=0&product_base_id=119&sourceid=002938462426
>87432267
>
>I knew it was coming. I even knew it could be done now, if they chose. Well,
>now it has.
>
>Filksinger

Resolution isn't good. (But they are pretty inexpensive.) Also, I'm not sure I
want the screen moving with my head. :)

 --
Dennis Doms  SynABit@kc.invalid  http://home.earthlink.net/~chemsleuth
[replace "invalid" with "rr.com" for valid mail]

  "It doesn't matter if we turn to dust; turn and turn and turn we must
         I guess I'll see you, dancing in the ruins tonight..."
	                 -- Blue Oyster Cult

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18836
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2001 17:20:32 -0800
Subject: Re: Very Punny Stuff
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3aa97c98.948623798@news.sff.net...
> On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:34:50 -0800, "Filksinger"
> <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>
> >Scientists have now found what is belived to be the part of your brain
that
> >allows you to understand puns.
> >
> >http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1185000/1185972.stm
> >
> >Filksinger
> >
> I dunno, I think it's still a gray matter.

Brains are pink, not gray.:P

Which is why I always was suspicious about where Brain got his extra brains,
and the origin of Pinky's name.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18837
From: SynABit@kc.invalid (Dennis Doms)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 01:23:16 GMT
Subject: Re: Very Punny Stuff
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3aa968a4.0@news.sff.net>, "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
wrote:

>Scientists have now found what is belived to be the part of your brain that
>allows you to understand puns.
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1185000/1185972.stm
>
>Filksinger

I like Asimov's explanation ("Jokester") better. :)
 --
Dennis Doms  SynABit@kc.invalid  http://home.earthlink.net/~chemsleuth
[replace "invalid" with "rr.com" for valid mail]

  "It doesn't matter if we turn to dust; turn and turn and turn we must
         I guess I'll see you, dancing in the ruins tonight..."
	                 -- Blue Oyster Cult

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18838
From: Clay Steiner" <claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net>
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:00:47 -0700
Subject: Re: Aw, jeez -- part II
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


In article <3a8c91c7.789434046@news.sff.net>, JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT) 
wrote:


> Just wanted to congratulate Clay on getting 627 votes in his race...
> 3.98% without really campaigning.
>
> (Totals just released recently, and I saw them today....)
>
> JT

Aw, shucks -- thanks, cobber.

I'm wondering where in particular you found those results. I Googled
myself (illegal in some states; check your local listings) and most --
if not all -- of the places my alleged campaign showed up were web
postings dated no later than November of last year.


--
Clay Steiner claysteiner@SPAMTHIS.prodigy.net
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"The fundamental problem with Solipsism is that it makes me
responsible for the fact that you're a complete idiot." -- Dan Iwerks

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18839
From: Brian E. Scherrer <brianes@cts.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 06:46:45 -0800
Subject: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

All;

It looks like it's that time again...  I promised earlier this week
I'd pop in and sound off.  I've been reduced recently to primarily
lurking (for reasons that will be obvious--particularly to JT ;-)  ),
but I'm a *faithful* lurker--and maybe without feeling the need to
introduce myself first, I'll speak up a bit more...

Brian Scherrer

Age: 41

Married (again) to Stacy, on 01 Aug 99.  FWIW, she's a redhead--my
first.  For some reason that seems to have some significance around
here...

Also, at long last, and somewhat to my surprise (though no accident),
I have a son--James Edward Kekoa, born 13 Aug 00.  Within a loud shout
of Daniel's age, eh JT?  Big eye opener that--nothing like becoming a
parent to completely restructure one's entire world-view.  He and Mom
are off for a week in Hawaii and left yesterday morning.  I miss him
already.  (No vacation, she's cleaning out her late parent's house
with her brother--a task about three years' overdue) Stacy was born
and raised in Honolulu--tho' she's as Haole as I am, maybe more so.
That btw, explaines the Kekoa--James Edward is for my Father).

Currently (and for the forseeable future) residing in San Diego.

Occupation: 

US Navy.  Enlisted.  17+ down, 2+ to go...

Teaching (also again, though a different specialty) preventive
medicine.  It's fun, and schoolhouses don't get underway...  I spent
4+ years on the USS Tarawa from '95 to '99.  Hard in many ways, even
harder on marriages, but I wouldn't have missed it.  Seeing places
like the far and middle east in person tends to give one perspective.

Hobbies:
Computers and Trying to Understand the Meaning of it All.  No progress
on the latter to speak of, though it's diverting.  I realized after
watching a Bio on Woz last night on A&E that I'm not alone in my
disease.  Seems he too is one of those that once everything is fixed,
up and running and tweaked to perfection, boredom sets in.  And here I
thought it was just me...

Heinlein:

My first is lost in the mists of time.  I remember reading CotG, RP
and other Juvies at around age 9 or 10, along with a fair amount of
Asimov, Clarke--the usual suspects.  I can't remember which came
first, though.

I do credit RAH with influencing me second only to my parents, I
think.  Taught me to question, to think outside the box.  What are the
facts?  What works?  Why?  Recognize wishful thinking when you see it.
Drives my well-meaning, goodhearted, Liberal victim of a UC San Diego
liberal arts education crazy.  Come to think of it, discovering that a
libertarian, objectivist anarcho-capitalist *isn't* the devil
incarnate kind of drives *her* crazy at times.  Unsettles her
percieved order of things...heh, heh, heh.

Politics:
Libertarian.  I have a deep fondness for the US Constitution *as
originally written and intended*.  More Govt. than that becomes
excessively intrusive and counter-productive, too little--well the
Articles of Confederation were a failure yes?  The sweet spot is, to
me, obvious.  Sadly, it's *way* off in the other direction, and we
seem to be getting further and further from it.

Religion: 
Liberal (in the classic sense of the word) christian Unitarian (also
in the classic sense), deist.  Which means...different things on
different days...<shrug>  I'm gnostic enough to think trying to figure
it out is part of the plan, and maybe the most fundimental act of
worship.  "Fundimentalists" drive me nuts--I grok a 'wrongness' there.

....Which is probably more than you wanted to know :-)

Regards,
  -- Brian

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18840
From: Brian E. Scherrer <brianes@cts.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 06:49:15 -0800
Subject: Re: Special Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Gordon G. Sollars <gsollars@pobox.com> wrote:

>In article <3aa78105.0@news.sff.net>, Brian E. Scherrer writes...
>> "William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
>> 
>> >> Regards,
>> >>   -- Brian
>> >>
>> >> Regards,
>> >>   -- Brian
>> >
>> >Busy composing that intriguing .sig, eh? <g>
>> 
>> Ya gotta admit; at least I'm *consistent* ;-)
>> 
>> Regards,
>>   -- Brian
>> 
>
>Well, no.  If you were consistent, you would have used it again.  ;-)

I did--but just once.  Of course, it'll be a total of four times in
this post :-)

Regards,
  -- Brian

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18841
From: Brian E. Scherrer <brianes@cts.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 06:51:18 -0800
Subject: Re: Very Punny Stuff
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT) wrote:

>On Fri, 9 Mar 2001 15:34:50 -0800, "Filksinger"
><filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>
>>Scientists have now found what is belived to be the part of your brain that
>>allows you to understand puns.
>>
>>http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_1185000/1185972.stm
>>
>>Filksinger
>>
>I dunno, I think it's still a gray matter.
>
>JT

Careful JT, with all these old cobbers dropping in, Doc might be
around somewhere... ;-)

Regards,
  -- Brian

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18842
From: Brian E. Scherrer <brianes@cts.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 06:56:39 -0800
Subject: Re: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Brian E. Scherrer <brianes@cts.com> wrote:

Durn it, I knew I'd forget something.

First on HF:

July 4th, '94.  It it just me, or is there something a bit surreal
about *P* in retrospect?

>All;
>
>It looks like it's that time again...

Regards,
  -- Brian

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18843
From: Brian E. Scherrer <brianes@cts.com>
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 07:04:33 -0800
Subject: Re: CD Ripping Software
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:

Filksinger;

Check

http://www.cdrfaq.org/

It'll tell you more than you ever wanted to know.  It's comprehensive,
but arrainged logically and hierarchically--it's fairly easy to find
what you're looking for.

>I have just purchased an inexpensive Samsung CD burner, and so far like it.
>I intend to make copies of all my CDs, so that they won't get ruined, and my
>tapes, same reason. However, I found that it doesn't alway copy properly. I
>am still trying to determine if this is the recorder's fault, or the disk
>was read incorrectly.
>
>In my attempts to find better CD ripping software with built-in error
>detection and correction, I have discovered WinDAC, which costs money, and
>CD Paranoia, which is supposed to be rock solid and recover even badly
>scratched disks, but only runs on Linux.
>
>So, does anybody know of any audio CD extraction software that has
>especially good error correction and runs on Windows?
>
>Filksinger
>


Regards,
  -- Brian

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18844
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:04:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Aw, jeez -- part II
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 10 Mar 2001 02:00:47 -0700, "Clay Steiner"
<claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net> wrote:

>I'm wondering where in particular you found those results.

My print copy of _LP News_, last month's, I guess.  Probably available
on www.lp.org somewhere, too.

JT


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18845
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 21:04:48 GMT
Subject: Re: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 11 Mar 2001 06:46:45 -0800, Brian E. Scherrer
<brianes@cts.com> wrote:

>Also, at long last, and somewhat to my surprise (though no accident),
>I have a son--James Edward Kekoa, born 13 Aug 00.  Within a loud shout
>of Daniel's age, eh JT?  

Congratulations!  Becoming a parent has completely flip-flopped my
worldview.  It's no longer about me, but about him. ;)  And you
couldn't have told me that beforehand.

Like I told Leslie & JP, Gathering 2002 or 2003 is going to be quite
the family affair. We'll probably have to have it at Disney World, or
with this group maybe Hershey Park is a better idea. <VBG>

JT



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18846
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 00:49:28 -0500
Subject: Re: Special Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

<!doctype html public "-//w3c//dtd html 4.0 transitional//en">
<html>
Filksinger wrote:
<blockquote TYPE=CITE>Not that I'm feeling left out or anything, but did
this get mentioned on the
<br>HF sometime when I missed it? I would have loved meeting you in person,
and
<br>having a good excuse to visit with bytor, too. (Until I have a car
again,
<br>he's a three hour commute from my house.)
<p>Filksinger</blockquote>
Filksinger--
<p>     I apologize; I did intend to call and at one
point even had your phone number in my hand to send a call your way. 
But unfortunately that point was at a ridiculously small hour of the morning
-- and my last day in the area got cut short by having the "best chance"
of not getting bumped off of my flight the 6:00 AM flight.  (I travel
standby.)  Turned out that it was after 8:00 PM before I got on a
flight -- a busy day indeed, especially for a Saturday.
<p>     I did manage to make phone contact with Karen
Cottrell.
<p>     And, in a legacy from Doc, I do <b><i>NOT</i></b>
advertise on the board when I am traveling and will be away from my house. 
There might be lurkers with nasty  intentions.
<p>     One aside.  Every person I visited on
this trip kept cats, even those that are not part of this group. 
All persons part of this group kept at least two.
<p>--
<br><<Big Charlie>>
<p>"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney
<br> </html>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18847
From: Clay Steiner" <claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:10:23 -0700
Subject: Re: Aw, jeez -- part II
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3a915216.0@news.sff.net>, "Lorrita Morgan" 
<lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:


> Almost 4%!   Isn't that better than Nader did?
>
> Good job Clay.
>
> --
> `rita

Thanks, sincerely. The answer to your question is "maybe". As in, I'm
not sure of Nader's percentage of votes. But Nader certainly affected
the margin of difference in his race to much greater effect. (All
apologies to JovBill and other Florida residents...)

In my race the percentage didn't come close to the margin of
difference between the two Republocrats, more's the pity. My goal for
the next cycle is to increase that factor by ten. Assuming that I can
be sold on running again, of course -- and if I am, I will actually
RUN! <g>

--
Clay Steiner
claysteiner@SPAMTHIS.prodigy.net (remove the obvious to reply)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
"Wife who put husband in doghouse, soon find him in cathouse."
-- Wisdom of the Tao     (thanks to theo1610)

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18848
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 01:08:03 -0500
Subject: Replies to Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

All--

    Yes, Brian first caught me by surprise with a reference to "My
wife's cell phone" in a communication just a few days before a I was to
show up. Stacy is a beauty; she used to race outrigger canoes between
Maui and Oahu (about 40 miles) and so meets the Heinlein woman
requirements of being skilled and athletic....  A photograph of her with
an island hair style and orchid in her hair shows that while she may be
genetically 100% haole, the islands have had some influence.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18849
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 01:37:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

CHASGRAFT@aol.com

Charles (V.) Graft  (III)

Born:  August 21, 1943

Brief description:  6'3" 270 lb., bald and bearded.

Army brat upbringing -- lived in three countries and six states.

Was semi retired (8 years) office machine and computer technician.  Am
now working (if that is the word) for the US postal service as an
Electronic Technician ("Need an ET on sorter #12") repairing high speed
computerized sorting equipment. (Over three years now.)

Dropped out of Purdue University after two years work and almost three
years residence.  Lived in Indianapolis since February of 1965 and in my
current house since November of 1968.

Have sold patent on computerized voting system.  Hope to make my fortune
from this.  But it wasn't enough to 1) pay my bills (mostly from my
failed marriage) 2) pay my living expenses and 3) set up my retirement.
So the postal service keeps me fed while I wait for my ship to dock.
But since the Florida election, it looks as if this is not going to be
just a "comfortable" retirement, but a quite wealthy one.  I won't quit
work until after I see the check, though.

First read RAH about 1955 with "Starman Jones".  "Red Planet" made more
of an impression.  Did not particularly like SIASL on first reading when
I was in High School (Heidelberg, Germany).  I like it lots better now
-- particularly the uncut version. My favorite RAH is usually "The Moon
is a Harsh Mistress".

Taste in movies: Disney, Light comedy, and musicals.  Massive movie
collection -- over 500 on Laserdisc, DVD, VHS, and yes, even a few Beta
that I have not found replacement for yet.

Taste in music -- 1955-1965.  Broadway.  Big Band.  Some classical.
Enya.

Pets: Dorian Grey, mostly gray but five colored female cat 11 1/2 years
old.  Dora, age 13 1/2. Black tortoise shell, who is Grey's mother.
Both are (now) inside cats.

Hobbies:

Railroading     Operation of large (full size) railroad equipment (am
FRA certified locomotive engineer (steam and diesel) and conductor for
Whitewater Valley RR in Connersville, IN.  I also help teach the annual
classes for potential members.

Motorcycling   (1981 KAW KZ550 GT)
Scuba
Camera         (slides)
Hi-Fi / Video  (Ohm Walsh 4 speakers for you audiophiles)  My collection
of video in DVD, Laserdisc
(the big one), VHS and, yes, even Beta (I have a few I have not been
able to replace) numbers over
500.

Sailboating

Travel       One  has the time or one has the money -- but just try to
get both at once!

Flying         Am now again active with the purchase of a 1/7 share in a
flying club owning a Beech Sundowner.  Former owner of a Mooney 201.
Having airline benefits from 2 brothers (one of whom is my legal son)
working for different airlines makes private flying for travel way to
expensive.  So this one is just a local run-around toy.

Personal -- divorced.  Between girlfriends. Any takers?

First Time on HF -- May of 1992.  Have attended four national gatherings
and hosted three east coast ones.  Will offer another east coast one
anytime there is some interest.  Will try to attend any that are put on.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
they make it easier to do don't
need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18850
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:02:44 -0800
Subject: Re: Very Punny Stuff
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Dennis Doms" <SynABit@kc.invalid> wrote in message
news:3aa97d11.2652937@news.sff.net...
<snip>
>
> I like Asimov's explanation ("Jokester") better. :)

I don't, not for real life. IIRC, that's the one where humor was an
experiment by some outside force, and the moment the experiment was
discovered, humor ceased.

Frankly, I'd rather stick with mundane explanations, or none at all,
than that.

But it was a more interesting explanation.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18851
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2001 23:03:05 -0800
Subject: Re: CD Ripping Software
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Thanks. That will help a lot.

Filksinger

"Brian E. Scherrer" <brianes@cts.com> wrote in message
news:3aaba93a.0@news.sff.net...
> "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:
>
> Filksinger;
>
> Check
>
> http://www.cdrfaq.org/
>
> It'll tell you more than you ever wanted to know.  It's
comprehensive,
> but arrainged logically and hierarchically--it's fairly easy to find
> what you're looking for.
>
> >I have just purchased an inexpensive Samsung CD burner, and so far
like it.
> >I intend to make copies of all my CDs, so that they won't get
ruined, and my
> >tapes, same reason. However, I found that it doesn't alway copy
properly. I
> >am still trying to determine if this is the recorder's fault, or
the disk
> >was read incorrectly.
> >
> >In my attempts to find better CD ripping software with built-in
error
> >detection and correction, I have discovered WinDAC, which costs
money, and
> >CD Paranoia, which is supposed to be rock solid and recover even
badly
> >scratched disks, but only runs on Linux.
> >
> >So, does anybody know of any audio CD extraction software that has
> >especially good error correction and runs on Windows?
> >
> >Filksinger
> >
>
>
> Regards,
>   -- Brian
>



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18852
From: Clay Steiner" <claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:27:51 -0700
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


In article <3AA05124.223753CB@rcsis.com>, Audrey Gifford 
<agifford@rcsis.com> wrote:


> Ahem...
>
> Thought I might drop in here and delurk,. I've been here so long most of
> you don't know me - Geo and Deb and sometimes Doc and Sifi Rob might
> remember me,

Not only them, Audrey... I remember you from far enough back that you
& Bob then shared a surname. <G>


> but the reason I am delurking is to let all of you know
> that Bob Lawson - who IS still a regular here - since 1989 or so - back
> in the olden days of Prodigy - received three letters of acceptance
> today for colleges. He has been admitted as a freshman to:
>
> physics, UC Santa Cruz
> physics, UC Riverside
>
> and Cal Poly.
>
> So far no one has turned him down.

Way to go, Bob! I read downstream that you also applied to Irvine,
Pomona, UCSB and others. I can only recommend that you stick to the
coast -- when things get nuts, the opportunities to chill are more
numerous and of _much_ better quality. Make sure you take your Doors
CDs, of course...


--
Clay Steiner claysteiner@SPAMTHIS.prodigy.net
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(interned at UCSB campus radio 1980-81)

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18853
From: Clay Steiner" <claysteiner@SPAMTHISprodigy.net>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 10:29:50 -0700
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


In article <3aa1e0f2.15685116@news.sff.net>, bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com 
(Bob Lawson) wrote:


>
>>UC Irvine
> Update: (for any who may care) I discovered today that I was denied
> admission to UC Irvine.

Their loss. Who wants to be an Anteater, anyway? Much better to be a
Gaucho, or even a Banana Slug. <G>

--
Clay Steiner claysteiner@SPAMTHIS.prodigy.net
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
(interned at UCSB campus radio 1980-81)

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18854
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 15:28:00 -0500
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Clay Steiner wrote:

> In article <3AA05124.223753CB@rcsis.com>, Audrey Gifford
> <agifford@rcsis.com> wrote:
>
> > Ahem...
> >
> > Thought I might drop in here and delurk,. I've been here so long most of
> > you don't know me - Geo and Deb and sometimes Doc and Sifi Rob might
> > remember me,
>
> Not only them, Audrey... I remember you from far enough back that you
> & Bob then shared a surname. <G>

Except in those days it wasn't "Bob," it was "Bobby." Audrey forgot that *I*
remember her, too!   ;^)

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18855
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 00:53:01 GMT
Subject: Re: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 01:37:01 -0500, Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
wrote:
>CHASGRAFT@aol.com
>
I wasn't going to post a Roll Call for myself this time around, but
then I read 3 or 4 interesting things in BC's that were "updates", so
thanks for the news, BC. <G>

John Tilden, going by 
JT or JusTin or "DaDa" (from a select group of one)

age 32, married, to Christine.  
son Daniel Robert, age 6 months or so.  He's just starting rolling
over, no teeth, words, or sitting up on his own yet.

occupation:  network tech guy for a small part of a large government
agency.  I know NT and Exchange 5.5 pretty well, but I can barely
program my way out of a batch file.

Hobbies outside of SF and Computers: I somehow manage to keep up with
my comics (overwhelmingly DC).  Reading them, at least.  Ask Fader how
long I've been trying to organize them.  That was my last New Year's
resolution before I quit making them.  I also love the music of the
Beach Boys in particular, and most 60s pop in general.

First RAH: _Farmer in the Sky_.  My favorite is still _TMIAHM_.

First on the HF: May 1992.  I helped the exodus from Prodigy Classic,
but, unlike Moses, entered the Promised Land of SFF Net.

Politics: practical Libertarian. (is that an oxymoron?)

Religion:  I am currently going through "RCIA" to join my  local Roman
Catholic parish.  I tell friends that I am pledging the Catholics.
<wink> This parish is an extremely liberal group, and I found them
quite welcoming, but my wife has had to adapt to some of the
differences from her more conservative upbringing.  I am also an
ordained-by-mail Minister of the Gospel with one wedding to my credit.

Other stuff:  I'm a volunteer CPR instructor, and I try to give whole
blood and platelets regularly.  We've been in our house almost 2 years
already, and home ownership seems to take up the rest of the time that
isn't covered by the above.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18856
From: Brian E. Scherrer <brianes@cts.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:06:02 -0800
Subject: Re: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT) wrote:

JT;

>John Tilden, going by 
>JT or JusTin or "DaDa" (from a select group of one)

DaDa for real, or 'DaDa's' wishful thinking?  James does mucho
DaDaDaDa.....  But I'm under no illusions there's any connection--it's
an easy sound for them to learn to make (the reason most babies *do*
say DaDa first and (apparently) are in fact referring to Dad.  I gotta
admit though, there's been a couple of times he's had me wondering.

>Politics: practical Libertarian. (is that an oxymoron?)

Ahem.  No.  There's one or two of us that are of the opinion that it's
the *only* practical school of political thought.  Not to mention
having the added (and politically unusual) attribute of philosophic
self-consistency.  Of course, I could be wrong.  But I doubt it.  :-)

Regards,
  -- Brian

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18857
From: Brian E. Scherrer <brianes@cts.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:09:59 -0800
Subject: Re: Replies to Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote:

>Stacy is a beauty; she used to race outrigger canoes between
>Maui and Oahu (about 40 miles) and so meets the Heinlein woman
>requirements of being skilled and athletic....

An assessment I share.  Now, having lived with one, I must say they
keep life interesting.  Challenging and, at the end of the day, deeply
satisfying.  She *does* keep me on my toes...

Regards,
  -- Brian

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18858
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2001 23:08:17 -0500
Subject: Re: Special Thanks
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

LORRITA MORGAN wrote:

> As I said privately, come again when you can stay longer.  I enjoyed meeting
> and hosting you.
>
> To the group, BC is a fine gentleman who let me walk all over his thoughts
> and interrupt him unmercifully.

Why, Lorrita--

     How nice of you to say so.  Shall I bring the whips and chains next time?
<BEG> :-)

     I have the same tendency to walk on people's thoughts.  We must be
compatible.
--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things they
make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18859
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 10:00:11 -0800
Subject: Re: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Brian E. Scherrer" <brianes@cts.com> wrote in message
news:3aaba50c.0@news.sff.net...
> All;
>
> It looks like it's that time again...  I promised earlier this week
> I'd pop in and sound off.  I've been reduced recently to primarily
> lurking (for reasons that will be obvious--particularly to JT ;-)  ),
> but I'm a *faithful* lurker--and maybe without feeling the need to
> introduce myself first, I'll speak up a bit more...
>
> Brian Scherrer
>
> Age: 41
>
> Married (again) to Stacy, on 01 Aug 99.  FWIW, she's a redhead--my
> first.  For some reason that seems to have some significance around
> here...
>
> Also, at long last, and somewhat to my surprise (though no accident),
> I have a son--James Edward Kekoa, born 13 Aug 00.  Within a loud shout
> of Daniel's age, eh JT?  Big eye opener that--nothing like becoming a
> parent to completely restructure one's entire world-view.  He and Mom
> are off for a week in Hawaii and left yesterday morning.  I miss him
> already.  (No vacation, she's cleaning out her late parent's house
> with her brother--a task about three years' overdue) Stacy was born
> and raised in Honolulu--tho' she's as Haole as I am, maybe more so.
> That btw, explaines the Kekoa--James Edward is for my Father).

Congratulations on both accounts.

<snip>
> Politics:
> Libertarian.  I have a deep fondness for the US Constitution *as
> originally written and intended*.  More Govt. than that becomes
> excessively intrusive and counter-productive, too little--well the
> Articles of Confederation were a failure yes?  The sweet spot is, to
> me, obvious.  Sadly, it's *way* off in the other direction, and we
> seem to be getting further and further from it.
>
> Religion:
> Liberal (in the classic sense of the word) christian Unitarian (also
> in the classic sense), deist.  Which means...different things on
> different days...<shrug>  I'm gnostic enough to think trying to figure
> it out is part of the plan, and maybe the most fundimental act of
> worship.

"The profoundest act of worship, is to try to understand."
Catherine Faber, "Word of God"
http://artists.mp3s.com/artist_song/93/93438.html

>  "Fundimentalists" drive me nuts--I grok a 'wrongness' there.
>
> ...Which is probably more than you wanted to know :-)

Nope. I think you've about got it covered.

Filksinger



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18860
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:53:31 GMT
Subject: Re: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Mon, 12 Mar 2001 17:06:02 -0800, Brian E. Scherrer
<brianes@cts.com> wrote:
>>John Tilden, going by 
>>JT or JusTin or "DaDa" (from a select group of one)
>
>DaDa for real, or 'DaDa's' wishful thinking?  James does mucho
>DaDaDaDa.....  But I'm under no illusions there's any connection--it's
>an easy sound for them to learn to make (the reason most babies *do*
>say DaDa first and (apparently) are in fact referring to Dad.  I gotta
>admit though, there's been a couple of times he's had me wondering.
>
;) Mostly wishful thinking, but like you say, it's hard to tell.  We
encourage him when he says it looking at me, but we don't know.  I'm
personally encouraging "ma ma" so that will be what he says at night.
<EG>

I do know that I get a *really big smile* when I come home from work
and he sees me, and that's worth the price of admission.

JT




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18861
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2001 21:29:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT wrote:

>
> I do know that I get a *really big smile* when I come home from work
> and he sees me, and that's worth the price of admission.
>
> JT

I get one in the morning from my four month old...she wakes up and coos a
bit so I carry on sleeping, she shouts a bit louder so I stagger over and
as a reward for my efforts I get a slow blossoming smile that just makes me
grin back...nothing like babies for making you go all gooey is there? :-)

Jane



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18862
From: LORRITA  MORGAN" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 00:23:59 -0800
Subject: Re: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Here's Me:
Lorrita Morgan soon to be 45 on the anniversary of the sinking of the
Titanic and Lincoln's assaisination.  I'm still married to Russell Jones
even though he hasn't lived with me since April of 1997.  We have two grown
daughters and a wonderful, marvelous, totally cool son-in-law.

I live with four furry children.  Buck is a vicious seven year-old spaniel.
Bandit is a 100+ pound lap dog with wolf, chow, and rottweiller in his
genes.  Miss Polificate and Pantera are the brat cats.  They are all total
clowns and excellent companions.

I first posted on the old HF sometime before June 1995.  How long before I
have no idea.  I remember telling this group about buying the computer I
just replaced around then.

My first RAH was TDiS.  My favorite is usually ST, followed by a long list
of short stories beginning with "If This Goes On ..." from Revolt in 2100.
I admit to not rereading any Heinlein in the past two years.

I have just about whipped my new computer into shape.  It says something
about me that the .zip file of my .wavs took 27 floppies.

I may learn enough to fix my web page on of these days, but if you visit
leave me a note.  http://home.talkcity.com/bookmarkblvd/lorrita/

Anyway, congrats Brain and best wishes.


--
Later,

`rita
Almost live from Finley, WA.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18863
From: debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:58:35 GMT
Subject: Web pages
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


  I've been adding web address of Forum friends to the Heinlein page
on my web site. I know I'm missing some. I have Tomstafl's, Bytors,
`Rita's, and John Paul's. Who else has a web page?


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18864
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 23:46:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Web pages
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Wed, 14 Mar 2001 21:58:35 GMT, debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
wrote:

>
>  I've been adding web address of Forum friends to the Heinlein page
>on my web site. I know I'm missing some. I have Tomstafl's, Bytors,
>`Rita's, and John Paul's. Who else has a web page?
>
Well, my personal page is at:
http://hammer.prohosting.com/~tilden/ .

JT



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18865
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:26:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Web pages
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Mine is http://pw2.netcom.com/~dauphinb/index.htm (JT, you can add it to
the HF page, too)

Homepage is *very* basic, but my astronomy stuff may be of interest to
some of you.

-JovBill

Deb Houdek Rule wrote:

>   I've been adding web address of Forum friends to the Heinlein page
> on my web site. I know I'm missing some. I have Tomstafl's, Bytors,
> `Rita's, and John Paul's. Who else has a web page?
>
> Deb  (D.A. Houdek)
> http://www.dahoudek.com
> http://www.civilwarstlouis.com


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18866
From: debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 05:15:27 GMT
Subject: Re: Web pages
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>Well, my personal page is at:
>http://hammer.prohosting.com/~tilden/ .

  Thanks, JT & JovBill. I added yours, and picked up SIFI Robs,
WJake's from your site, JT. Eli's didn't work.


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18867
From: Eli Hestermann <Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 07:51:08 -0500
Subject: Re: Web pages
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



Deb Houdek Rule wrote:

> >Well, my personal page is at:
> >http://hammer.prohosting.com/~tilden/ .
>
>   Thanks, JT & JovBill. I added yours, and picked up SIFI Robs,
> WJake's from your site, JT. Eli's didn't work.

Nah, MIT finally figured out that I wasn't a student anymore.  It was
horribly outdated anyway.  I've been slowly putting another together,
and I'll let you all know when it's up.

While I'm at it, I'll say hello.  We've been back from Japan since
mid-January, but between starting a new job and buying a new home,
things have been busy.  More details can be found over on my ng.

--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa."  -Seneca



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18868
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 00:34:17 GMT
Subject: Re: Web pages
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Wed, 14 Mar 2001 19:26:15 -0500, Bill Dauphin
<dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>Mine is http://pw2.netcom.com/~dauphinb/index.htm (JT, you can add it to
>the HF page, too)
>
>Homepage is *very* basic, but my astronomy stuff may be of interest to
>some of you.
>
>-JovBill

I haven't put up an HFer link page on the HF site, I just link to
people on my personal site for fun.  It took me a few months to change
Deb's photos link! ;)

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18869
From: Bill Dauphin <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:02:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Web pages
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



JT wrote:

> I haven't put up an HFer link page on the HF site...

OK. I thought you had links on the Patrons of Free Speech page, but it's no
biggie either way.

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18870
From: David Wright" <maikosht@alltel.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 13:54:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

David Wright dwrighsr@alltel.net

Family info at:

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/wright.htm

First RAH:  Fall 1953, either Starman Jones or Between Planets. I can't
remember exactly which.

Favorite RAH: the last one i re-read (for the millionth time).

Hobbies: Archivist for The Heinlein Readers Group disscusion group using AIM
software:




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18871
From: David Wright" <maikosht@alltel.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:24:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

David Wright

E-Mail: dwrighsr@alltel.net

Web Page: http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr

Personal Highlights:

Married to Jennelou Earnhardt Wright, (yes, she is a medium distant cousin
of Dale's) since August 1966. Two sons: David, currently working on second
master's degree at Univ. GA. and John, in Ph.D program at Louisiana State
University. Wife and both sons are RAH fans, although not to the degree I
am.

More family Info at: http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/wright.htm

First RAH: August 1953, either Starman Jones or Between Planets. I'm not
sure which.

Favorite RAH: The last one I re-read. I have read all of them a million
times. Well, dozens at least. I am also fan of Asimov, Hogan, Piper,
Sheffield, Pournelle, Anderson

Essays:
Some Thoughts on Time Travel with a detailed timeline for 'All You Zombies'
http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/TimeTravelTheories.htm

Rational Anarchy http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/RatAnarch/

Hobbies: No time for much. Most free time not spent on reading SF or
professional material, is spent as archivist for The Heinlein Readers Group
which meets (usually), on alternate Thursdays/Saturdays. Next meeting March
29 at 9:00 P.M. EST and Saturday March 31 at 5:00 P.M. EST. We meet using
AIM software. See: http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html, (click on
Introduction link), for information. This will be an Author Visit meeting.
GOH will be Joel Rosenberg.

Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum, alt.fan.heinlein

Occupation: Programmer, Network Engineer, database administrator,  general
IT flunky  for GA state agency.

Politics: moderate conservative

Religion: Russian Orthodox




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18872
From: David Wright" <maikosht@alltel.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 14:30:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


Ignore this one. It was a mistake. Sorry.




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18873
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 00:02:00 GMT
Subject: Re: Web pages
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Thu, 15 Mar 2001 20:02:18 -0500, Bill Dauphin
<dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote:

>OK. I thought you had links on the Patrons of Free Speech page, but it's no
>biggie either way.
>
>-JovBill
>
My bad!  As a Patron, you are of course entitled to a link.  And you
now have one. ;)

As an aside, I love broadband with a fast PC.  I cut your link from
here, pasted it into HomeSite, tested it, and uploaded the page and
tested it live in about a minute.

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18874
From: bobl@nospam.giantsfan.com (Bob Lawson)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 02:57:28 GMT
Subject: Re: Web pages
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

www.bluepoet.com, but it's not particularly good.
Bob
bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18875
From: David Wright" <dwrigsr@alltel.net>
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2001 22:24:04 -0500
Subject: Discussion log for Heinlein Readers Group 3/15/2001 now available
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

The discussion log for The Heinlein Readers Group meeting 3/15/2001 is now
available at:

http://dwrighsr.tripod.com/heinlein/DvJ_AIM_03-15-2001.html

The topic was "Compare/Contrast Don Harvey(BP) with Juan Rico(ST)"   AKA
"Don vs. Juan"

Another session on the same topic will be Saturday 3/17/2001 at 5:00 P.M.
EST

David Wright
--
Related Heinlein Web Pages

http://readinggroupsonline.com/group/robertaheinlein.html

http://www.alltel.net/~dwrighsr/heinlein.html

http://www.heinleinsociety.com/







------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18876
From: Madge Van Ness <madgevn@angelfire.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 14:50:20 -0500
Subject: Re: bragging righs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Congratulations, Bob! And as a currently struggling parent --
Congratulations Audrey!

MadgEdith

Audrey Gifford wrote:

> Ahem...
>
> Thought I might drop in here and delurk,. I've been here so long most of
> you don't know me - Geo and Deb and sometimes Doc and Sifi Rob might
> remember me, but the reason I am delurking is to let all of you know
> that Bob Lawson - who IS still a regular here - since 1989 or so - back
> in the olden days of Prodigy - received three letters of acceptance
> today for colleges. He has been admitted as a freshman to:
>
> physics, UC Santa Cruz
> physics, UC Riverside
>
> and Cal Poly.
>
> So far no one has turned him down.
>
> So all of you who helped him with all those science questions when he
> was still a little boy may pat yourselves on the back.
>
> And him too..
>
> Thanks, everyone - Audrey (his Mom)


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18877
From: Madge Van Ness <madgevn@angelfire.com>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 16:03:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

MadgEdith: Physician, mother, wife -- webmistress, student of
housekeeping, Christian, inactive black belt in TaeKwanDo, reader, cook,
writer, general handyperson.

I have a 14yo daughter in the middle of hormones (PITA alternating with
nice person); a 11 almost12 son who keeps challenging the senior male in
the household (Bill (DH) is a Taurus; the comparison is irresistable).

I have hit the big 5-0, and find it not so bad, except for the aches &
pains and the worries over parents who are having increasing health
glitches.

My first Heinlein was probably HSWT, but I'd read most of the juveniles
by the time I was 10; and a fair amount of Andre Norton, too. Current
reading in hard SF is David Weber & David Drake, with some Elizabeth Moon
& McCaffrey. Fantasy includes a lot of Mercedes Lackey and Sharon Green;
I just read Lackey's Sign of the Serpent, which has an interesting homage
to Dorothy Sayers in it (Hey, I can visualize Lord Peter Wimsey with
Water Magic) (Lackey has had her moments of being hard with fanfic --
ummm).

I was on the Prodigy boards in the way early 90's, and I drop in here
everynow&then.



"Brian E. Scherrer" wrote:

> All;
>
> It looks like it's that time again...  I promised earlier this week
> I'd pop in and sound off.  I've been reduced recently to primarily
> lurking (for reasons that will be obvious--particularly to JT ;-)  ),
> but I'm a *faithful* lurker--and maybe without feeling the need to
> introduce myself first, I'll speak up a bit more...
>
> Brian Scherrer
>
> Age: 41
>
> Married (again) to Stacy, on 01 Aug 99.  FWIW, she's a redhead--my
> first.  For some reason that seems to have some significance around
> here...
>
> Also, at long last, and somewhat to my surprise (though no accident),
> I have a son--James Edward Kekoa, born 13 Aug 00.  Within a loud shout
> of Daniel's age, eh JT?  Big eye opener that--nothing like becoming a
> parent to completely restructure one's entire world-view.  He and Mom
> are off for a week in Hawaii and left yesterday morning.  I miss him
> already.  (No vacation, she's cleaning out her late parent's house
> with her brother--a task about three years' overdue) Stacy was born
> and raised in Honolulu--tho' she's as Haole as I am, maybe more so.
> That btw, explaines the Kekoa--James Edward is for my Father).
>
> Currently (and for the forseeable future) residing in San Diego.
>
> Occupation:
>
> US Navy.  Enlisted.  17+ down, 2+ to go...
>
> Teaching (also again, though a different specialty) preventive
> medicine.  It's fun, and schoolhouses don't get underway...  I spent
> 4+ years on the USS Tarawa from '95 to '99.  Hard in many ways, even
> harder on marriages, but I wouldn't have missed it.  Seeing places
> like the far and middle east in person tends to give one perspective.
>
> Hobbies:
> Computers and Trying to Understand the Meaning of it All.  No progress
> on the latter to speak of, though it's diverting.  I realized after
> watching a Bio on Woz last night on A&E that I'm not alone in my
> disease.  Seems he too is one of those that once everything is fixed,
> up and running and tweaked to perfection, boredom sets in.  And here I
> thought it was just me...
>
> Heinlein:
>
> My first is lost in the mists of time.  I remember reading CotG, RP
> and other Juvies at around age 9 or 10, along with a fair amount of
> Asimov, Clarke--the usual suspects.  I can't remember which came
> first, though.
>
> I do credit RAH with influencing me second only to my parents, I
> think.  Taught me to question, to think outside the box.  What are the
> facts?  What works?  Why?  Recognize wishful thinking when you see it.
> Drives my well-meaning, goodhearted, Liberal victim of a UC San Diego
> liberal arts education crazy.  Come to think of it, discovering that a
> libertarian, objectivist anarcho-capitalist *isn't* the devil
> incarnate kind of drives *her* crazy at times.  Unsettles her
> percieved order of things...heh, heh, heh.
>
> Politics:
> Libertarian.  I have a deep fondness for the US Constitution *as
> originally written and intended*.  More Govt. than that becomes
> excessively intrusive and counter-productive, too little--well the
> Articles of Confederation were a failure yes?  The sweet spot is, to
> me, obvious.  Sadly, it's *way* off in the other direction, and we
> seem to be getting further and further from it.
>
> Religion:
> Liberal (in the classic sense of the word) christian Unitarian (also
> in the classic sense), deist.  Which means...different things on
> different days...<shrug>  I'm gnostic enough to think trying to figure
> it out is part of the plan, and maybe the most fundimental act of
> worship.  "Fundimentalists" drive me nuts--I grok a 'wrongness' there.
>
> ...Which is probably more than you wanted to know :-)
>
> Regards,
>   -- Brian


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18878
From: debrule@jps.net (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 21:32:22 GMT
Subject: Re: Web pages
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>www.bluepoet.com, but it's not particularly good.
>Bob
>bobl@deletethis.bluepoet.com

  Added it, Bob. Thanks. 


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18879
From: David Wright" <dwrigsr@alltel.net>
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2001 23:30:29 -0500
Subject: Problems with Heinlein Readers Group Discussion Log archives
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

My apologies to everyone. For some unknown reason, Tripod has informed me
that I have been removed as an authorized user due to 'Violation of Terms of
Service'.

I have no idea what they are basing this on and I have requested
clarification from them.

Until this is resolved, part of my Heinlein web site which includes the
Discussion Log archives will be down.

Again my sincerest apologies. I will be in touch as soon as I hear from
them.

David Wright





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18880
From: David M. Silver" <agplusone@loop.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 12:05:45 -0800
Subject: Re: Heinlein Society
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

JT wrote:

[snip]

> David, can you give us a little more background on where things are at
> with the HS?
>
> Pet Peeve...it SHOULD be heinleinsociety.org ;)

It is now. See, http://www.heinleinsociety.org

The new website just went up and is a work in progress, but some of the
page may interest many of us, particularly those that describe the work
of various committees in progress, work and committees that, of course,
could use help and additional members. Note the new mailing address.

David M. Silver
Secretary-Treasurer
The Heinlein Society
PO Box 1254
Venice, CA 90294





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18881
From: Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2001 16:05:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Is This Impossible?
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

All--
     After having discussed this by phone with Fader, I may have a
simpler explanation.  Under pressure, the output from your electrolysis
(or whatever) appears as a gas dissolved in water rather than a free gas
which would be a bubble.

     I'm not up enough on thermodynamics to know if that is the actual
case, but at least it should be part of it and it seems to be more
obvious to understand.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

"Computers make it easier to do a lot of things, but most of the things
they make it easier to do don't need to be done."  -- Andy Rooney



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18882
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2001 00:40:44 GMT
Subject: Re: Heinlein Society
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 18 Mar 2001 12:05:45 -0800, "David M. Silver"
<agplusone@loop.com> wrote:
>JT wrote:
>
>[snip]
>
>> David, can you give us a little more background on where things are at
>> with the HS?
>>
>> Pet Peeve...it SHOULD be heinleinsociety.org ;)
>
>It is now. See, http://www.heinleinsociety.org
>

1.  .com should auto-refer over to .org, basically eliminating the
.com site.  Since you're only updating one of them, this could lead to
public confusion rapidly.  Hopefully, this is just a "haven't finished
yet".

2.  My "links" bar on the left didn't display a "topic" until I moved
the pointer over one of the areas...I think it should at least display
the word and change the color or styling with focus.  I'm using IE
5.5.

3. Personally, I'm a little disappointed to see "The Heinlein Forums"
and find that the society will be maintaining its own bulletin boards.
There are already two fine serious discussion areas for RAH's life &
works on the Internet (being a.f.h and sff.people.r-a-h).  Having
being involved in *The* Heinlein Forum <g> continuously since 1992 on
3 private online services and sff.discuss.heinlein-forum on the
Internet, I'm a little concerned about public confusion of discussion
forums.  I would rather see only a THS-related posting section on the
site.  I suppose it depends on how many paying members of the HF
besides me you get as to how much weight this would hold. ;)

Anyway, congratulations on the hurdles you've cleared.  I look forward
to seeing more in my inbox as things like member logins get worked
out.

(Note: spam-blocker in reply address for private replies)

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18883
From: David Wright" <maikosht@alltel.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2001 10:14:50 -0500
Subject: Temporary sight for Heinlein Reader Group Logs
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Robert A. Woodward" <robertaw@halcyon.com> wrote in message
news:robertaw-F60BB7.18290719032001@news.nwnexus.com...
> In article <XLrt6.5713$Fb.2265712@typhoon2.ba-dsg.net>, "Debbie Cusick"
> <SCALL0WAY@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "Debbie Cusick" <SCALL0WAY@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote in message
> > news:ewbt6.4786$Fb.1794816@typhoon2.ba-dsg.net...
> > > A friend of mine from another newsgroup just had Tripod do the same
> > > thing

My son forwarded me an apology to him from Tripod saying that his was
removed accidentally and would be restored as soon as possible. I haven't
received anything myself. I hope that all will soon be remedied.

In the meantime, the logs can be found temporarily at

http://167.198.197.9/dwrighsr/heinlein.html

The logs for last Thursday and last Saturday are located at:

http://167.198.197.9/dwrighsr/heinlein/DvJ_AIM_03-15-2001.html

http://167.198.197.9/dwrighsr/heinlein/DvJ_AIM_03-17-2001.html

David Wright






------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18884
From: Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net>
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2001 13:18:07 -0800
Subject: Departing President
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

I am not a Clinton-basher (hater, maybe, but not basher), but I couldn't
resist.:) Author unknown.

************

Subject: New Administration

    I sat, as did millions of other Americans, and watched as our government
underwent a peaceful transition of power.  I was proud as Mr. Bush took his
oath of office.

 I was sad as I watched Mr. Clinton board Air Force One for the final time.
It may surprise you that this made me sad, But watching this part of the
days festivities, I saw 21 U.S. Marines, in full dress, with rifles, fire a
21 gun salute to the outgoing president.

 It was then that I realized how far America's military had deteriorated.

Every last one of them missed.





------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18885
From: William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net>
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:57:47 -0500
Subject: Duck Everyone!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ok folks, Mir should be on its way. Keep an eye on the sky. Taco lovers,
hope for a short approach, that Taco Bell target is only 10 miles off the
Australian coast.

Goodbye, Mir.

--
WJaKe

http://pages.prodigy.net/wjake



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18886
From: Gaeltach <gaeltach@fan.net.au>
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2001 22:22:38 +1000
Subject: Re: Duck Everyone!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum



"William J. Keaton" wrote:

> Ok folks, Mir should be on its way. Keep an eye on the sky. Taco lovers,
> hope for a short approach, that Taco Bell target is only 10 miles off the
> Australian coast.

Well, if that's the case I might get splashed when/if it hits. Why is it we
Aussies always have to be paranoid about the sky falling down on us?
(Remembering SkyLab) Sheesh! :-)

Sean
(who wouldn't mind a piece of Mir as a souvenier anyway)


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18887
From: eljohn2@home.spamthis.com (Ed Johnson)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2001 12:21:54 -0500
Subject: Re: Duck Everyone!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

It was a clean miss. <g>

Ed J

On Thu, 22 Mar 2001 00:57:47 -0500, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:

>Ok folks, Mir should be on its way. Keep an eye on the sky. Taco lovers,
>hope for a short approach, that Taco Bell target is only 10 miles off the
>Australian coast.
>
>Goodbye, Mir.


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18888
From: ddavitt <ddavitt@netcom.ca>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 13:55:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Roll Call
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Madge Van Ness wrote:

>
>
>  Fantasy includes a lot of Mercedes Lackey and Sharon Green;
> I just read Lackey's Sign of the Serpent, which has an interesting homage
>

I'm enjoying the Sharon Green series, The Blending, but the new one,
Deceptions, is getting so complicated with all those different characters
with strange names, plots, people trying to take over and such that I felt a
tad bewildered reading it. I also wish just a bit more would happen; it seems
as if the whole book covered about a week of time....how long will this
series be?

Jane



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 18889
From: SpaceCadet <cdozo@hotmail.com_delete_this>
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2001 18:46:49 -0600
Subject: It's a Start
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

From the New York Times Sunday 3-25-01 

Tourist Is Ready for Space

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla., March 24 - Despite pressure
from NASA to back off, a California businessman is
pressing ahead with plans to visit the
International Space Station as the world's first
space tourist.

Russian space officials guaranteed the
businessman, Dennis Tito, a seat aboard a Soyuz
rocket to the space station in exchange for up to
$20 million. On Friday, Mr. Tito said he was
certain he would be aboard when it blasted off on
April 30.

"I'm not a spoiler here," said Mr. Tito, 60.

------------------------------------------------------------

============================================================
Archive of:   sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by:  webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Thu, 24 May 2001 17:00:56
First article in this archive:  18615
Last article in this archive:   18889
Oldest article in this archive: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 00:01:08 GMT
Newest article in this archive: Mon, 26 Mar 2001 18:10:13 -0800