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Archive of:   sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by:  webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:44:15
============================================================

Article 21012
From: hf_jai@prodigy.net (Jai Johnson-Pickett)
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 16:46:40 GMT
Subject: Re: To those who've been around here long enuf to care...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:03:10 -0500, "Bill Dennis"
<dwilliam16@insightbb.com> wrote:

>Also, the government can defeat PGP.

And on what do you base that assessment?
Jai

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21013
From: Dee" 
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 12:56:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Mara Progress Report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote in message
news:08p3cuggk8gimgs3lfcmesepml8u13imb2@4ax.com...
> Bill:   My wife SueEllen has been fighting  breast cancer for over
> 22 months now.    <snip>

Ed----
    I can't even begin to say how sorry I am about the bad news, and how
much I hope the new doctor can offer Sue Ellen hope and relief.
    All my good wishes are with you both, and my prayers for healing.
--Dee



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21014
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 13:15:18 -0700
Subject: Re: To those who've been around here long enuf to care...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Jai Johnson-Pickett" <hf_jai@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3cc0ffef.18664932@news.sff.net...
> Hi folks.
>
> Just thought I'd post the following, harking back to some very old
> conversations we've had here, and back on the Prodigy boards.  Found
> the following at http://www.msnbc.com/news/740672.asp, an article
> about how Al Qaida used computer technology.
>
> "     For example, al-Qaida couriers deliver floppy disks or Zip disks
> with encrypted data to third parties, who in turn take it to a cell
> planning a attack. The data are scrambled by common commercial
> encryption programs like PGP (Pretty Good Privacy), which can be
> downloaded for free, and then transferred to the disks. "
>
> Ok, ok, so I know you can't put a genie back in its bottle, but didn't
> I say this would happen?

Well, yes, I believe so. Of course, I assume _all_ new technology, and all
freedoms, can and will be used by criminals.

--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21015
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 13:16:51 -0700
Subject: Re: To those who've been around here long enuf to care...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

"Bill Dennis" <dwilliam16@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:3cc18330.0@news.sff.net...

> Well, people were delivering encrypted messages LONG before there was
> computer technology. Also, the government can defeat PGP. In that respect
> the encrypted messages of which you  write might as well have been written
> on paper.

Where on Earth did you get that idea?

--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21016
From: Filksinger" 
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 13:21:57 -0700
Subject: Re: Mara Progress Report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote in message
news:08p3cuggk8gimgs3lfcmesepml8u13imb2@4ax.com...
<snip>
> Bill:   My wife SueEllen has been fighting  breast cancer for over
> 22 months now.

Bill, my heartfelt prayers for your entire family. This isn't easy, as I am
an agnostic who thinks that, if there is a God, he probably doesn't like
hypocrites, but they are sincere prayers, and I think God will forgive me.

--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21017
From: Ed Johnson 
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 18:53:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Mara Progress Report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Dee:  Thank you for your kind thoughts and for your prayers.  I have
been convinced that prayer works and I am grateful for every prayer
that goes up for my wife SueEllen.  She seems to be in very good
hands with this new team of doctors, I am hopeful.  Her suffering
has been very much reduced under this doctors care.
The extent of this scares us both, but we do have hope.

Ed 

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 12:56:13 -0500, "Dee"
<ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org> wrote:

>
>"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote in message
>news:08p3cuggk8gimgs3lfcmesepml8u13imb2@4ax.com...
>> Bill:   My wife SueEllen has been fighting  breast cancer for over
>> 22 months now.    <snip>
>
>Ed----
>    I can't even begin to say how sorry I am about the bad news, and how
>much I hope the new doctor can offer Sue Ellen hope and relief.
>    All my good wishes are with you both, and my prayers for healing.
>--Dee
>


------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21018
From: Bill Dennis" 
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:55:09 -0500
Subject: Re: To those who've been around here long enuf to care...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Jai Johnson-Pickett" <hf_jai@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3cc2ecbb.11990321@news.sff.net...
> On Sat, 20 Apr 2002 10:03:10 -0500, "Bill Dennis"
> <dwilliam16@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
> >Also, the government can defeat PGP.
>

Pure speculation, i admit
I just find it impossible to believe that they cannot defeat commercially
available encryption technology.




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21019
From: Bill Dennis" 
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:58:43 -0500
Subject: Re: To those who've been around here long enuf to care...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthling.net> wrote in message
news:3cc31fa5.0@news.sff.net...
> "Bill Dennis" <dwilliam16@insightbb.com> wrote in message
> news:3cc18330.0@news.sff.net...
>
> > Well, people were delivering encrypted messages LONG before there was
> > computer technology. Also, the government can defeat PGP. In that
respect
> > the encrypted messages of which you  write might as well have been
written
> > on paper.
>
> Where on Earth did you get that idea?

See message above.
I have NO technical expertise. I just find it impossible to believe that
someone working for the government cannot break a commercially available
program like that.

Perhaps I have seen too many episodes of XFiles.

I should know better than to speak about authoritatively about subjects in
which I am not an expert, especially in a Heinlein newsgroup.
--
Bill Dennis
http://peoriatimesobserver.com
http://billdennis.net




------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21020
From: hf_jai@prodigy.net (Jai Johnson-Pickett)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 12:55:01 GMT
Subject: Re: To those who've been around here long enuf to care...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 23:58:43 -0500, "Bill Dennis"
<dwilliam16@insightbb.com> wrote:

>See message above.
>I have NO technical expertise. I just find it impossible to believe that
>someone working for the government cannot break a commercially available
>program like that.
>
>Perhaps I have seen too many episodes of XFiles.

Actually, I was hoping you knew something I didn't.  I'm no technical
expert in cryptography either, altho I do have some small experience
in the area.  But my admittedly sketchy understanding of the
mathmatics behind PGP tells me that it would be very very difficult to
break, even by using the big Crays (or whatever they have now).

I THINK that the only way to decrypt PGP messages is to find the keys
used by the senders/receivers.  Gaining access to Al Qaida thru human
intelligence sources is near impossible, for a variety of reasons.
But perhaps, I hope, we've made some progress by finding abandoned
lap-tops and such in places like Kabul.  Unfortunately, if I
understand PGP, it's relatively simple to change the keys as
frequently as needed.

>I should know better than to speak about authoritatively about subjects in
>which I am not an expert, especially in a Heinlein newsgroup.

Not to worry.  There's never been a direct correlation between
knowledge and opinion, even here.
Besides, I was looking for some feedback, and I still have hope that
someone with more "expert" knowledge (or not) can chime in with better
news.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21021
From: hf_jai@prodigy.net (Jai Johnson-Pickett)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 13:13:06 GMT
Subject: Re: To those who've been around here long enuf to care...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sun, 21 Apr 2002 13:15:18 -0700, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthling.net> wrote:

>> Ok, ok, so I know you can't put a genie back in its bottle, but didn't
>> I say this would happen?
>
>Well, yes, I believe so. Of course, I assume _all_ new technology, and all
>freedoms, can and will be used by criminals.

Yes, that's true.  No matter how benign a new tech capability might
seem, some bright boy is always sure to figure out a way to misuse it.

Still, the issue was, IIRC, whether the legal prohibitions against the
export of such technology were justified.

It's been about 10 years or so that PGP has been available over the
net, hasn't it?  I suppose that, by now, it would have become
available to "criminals" even had it not been so freely available.
But then too, they didn't just start using it today either.  Perhaps
we could have gotten Bin Laden, or foiled at least one of his earlier
attacks, had his access to the technology been delayed, even by a
short time.

Nor is Bin Laden the only "evil one" <g> to use PGP, but that's
another issue.

Otoh, even had there been a way to keep PGP off the internet, and I'm
not sure that was possible, Al Qaida (and the others) surely has
enough operatives within this country to make the point moot.

But I do seem to recall that a few folks thought that the govt
concerns about PGP in the wrong hands were foolish and/or paranoid.
That much, I think, is proven wrong.

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21022
From: rkaderli@yahoo.com
Date: 22 Apr 2002 18:42:10 GMT
Subject: Universe as in "Orphans
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Just reread Orphans of the Sky after 30 years .  I admit to rereading and
teaching Universe as a short story last decade. Now in terms of Semantics
and speculative fiction I think it still holds water.You know; language
equaling rationalizations equaling world view. Part two is rather a different
critter.  Anyone know why the two parts seem dissimilar in construction.
 The first story is very tight and prescient while part II just finishes
the story and seems preachy in the narrative. Not that it isn't well written
or exciting juvenile fiction.  But the weird female component and the Adam--Eve
thing, sheesh. What makes it possible to eat raw squirrel things on alien
planets anyway?
Kaderli

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21023
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:26:39 GMT
Subject: Re: To those who've been around here long enuf to care...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


>But I do seem to recall that a few folks thought that the govt
>concerns about PGP in the wrong hands were foolish and/or paranoid.
>That much, I think, is proven wrong.

  Anything in the "wrong hands" can be bad/dangerous/evil. PGP would
have been only one small tool that they could easily have gotten
around. They had multiple other contact means and even by email could
have sent absolutely unbreakable coded messages without any encryption
at all--like when the news quit broadcasting raw video of Bin Laden in
case he was sending signals in the images by things like where he
placed his hands. Their most dangerous contact means was as simple as
hopping on a plane and flying over to talk to each other in person. 

  The sheer volume of email traffic in the world would make it
impossible to scan everything for bad stuff--using an encryption like
PGP, I would think, would make it _more_ likely to have your email
brought to notice by some automatic censors. Meaning, assuming our
gov't does peruse the bulk of email and bbs like this for clues to
potentially dangerous activities in the works, sending something
that's not recognizable language--like PGP encrypted messages--would
put them on the scent, so to speak, quicker than carefully phrased
plain English text would. That's my speculation on the subject, at
least. 

  The right people on our end would still have to know who to be
watching and what to watch for, which, considering visas were granted
to some of these guys well _after_ Sept 11, seems to have been a
failing that occurred regardless of any intelligence tools available.


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21024
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 20:26:40 GMT
Subject: Re: Mara Progress Report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum


> I am hopeful.  Her suffering
>has been very much reduced under this doctors care.

  Ed--my warmest wishes to you both. 


Deb  (D.A. Houdek) 
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21025
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:52:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Mara Progress Report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 20 Apr 2002 18:13:43 -0400, Ed Johnson
<eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:
>As she said to me:  bad news/good news: it has spread
>to liver and brain, but this doctor is willing to treat her; giving
>us hope that the Fox Chase doctor took away from us.

Ed,

You both have been in my prayers constantly--I hope she has turned a
(good) corner.

I tried calling once, but I'm pretty sure you were in TX when I
called.  

Know that all of our thoughts are with you.

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21026
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:52:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Help with Laptop
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On Sat, 20 Apr 2002 14:32:35 -0600, "David McLean"
<NOSPAMdavid_mclean@msn.com> wrote:
>He explained that the pop evaporated leaving sugar crystals that remained
>conductors shorting the keyboard (the owner had shaken out the liquid that
>should have been a better conductor, but hey, I just watched in awe). The
>guys popped the keyboard and started cleaning with a waterless electronics
>cleaner in an aerosol spray can. THey went through about fifteen Q-tips too.
>Fifteen munutes later it was back up a working.
>
>My advice - Find an IT guy or small computer store that has dealt with this
>before. Cut 'em loose, pay the toll and pray. You may get lucky.
>
I agree.  Not that I've ever worked on one myself, but if you can get
the thing cleaned before it is ever turned back on you have a chance,
at least.  

Maybe you should just pop out the hard drive and try duplicating it?

This is a toughie.

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21027
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:52:07 GMT
Subject: Re: Universe as in "Orphans
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On 22 Apr 2002 18:42:10 GMT, rkaderli@yahoo.com wrote:

>Just reread Orphans of the Sky after 30 years .  I admit to rereading and
>teaching Universe as a short story last decade. Now in terms of Semantics
>and speculative fiction I think it still holds water.You know; language
>equaling rationalizations equaling world view. Part two is rather a different
>critter.  Anyone know why the two parts seem dissimilar in construction.
> The first story is very tight and prescient while part II just finishes
>the story and seems preachy in the narrative. Not that it isn't well written
>or exciting juvenile fiction.  But the weird female component and the Adam--Eve
>thing, sheesh. What makes it possible to eat raw squirrel things on alien
>planets anyway?
>Kaderli

Hi Kaderli.  I haven't read Orphans of the Sky in a while.  I'm just
glad to see some new faces! ;)  Somebody make a discussion out of
this, please.

JT

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21028
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 21:26:01 -0400
Subject: Re: To those who've been around here long enuf to care...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3cc39884.0@news.sff.net>, Bill Dennis writes...
....
> I have NO technical expertise. I just find it impossible to believe that
> someone working for the government cannot break a commercially available
> program like that.

Since the first publication of public-key encryption methods, by Diffie 
in the 1970s I think, "commercially available" has had nothing to do with 
it.  The NSA either has methods for prime number factoring (or, e.g., 
solving elliptic functions) that the /world/ mathematical community 
doesn't have or it does not.  (After Diffie published, the NSA claimed 
that it had already secretly developed the method, but they never offered 
support for that claim.)

I bet not.

As to what I take to be Jai's larger point (I wasn't around at the time), 
it is a sad fact that powerful technology can be used for both good and 
evil.

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21029
From: Gordon G. Sollars 
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 21:45:52 -0400
Subject: Re: To those who've been around here long enuf to care...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

In article <3cc4082b.34082716@news.sff.net>, Jai Johnson-Pickett 
writes...
....
> Still, the issue was, IIRC, whether the legal prohibitions against the
> export of such technology were justified.

The algorithms on which such software is based are in the public domain.  
Adi Shamir (the "S" in the RSA algorithm) does not live in the U.S.  
(Although I admit that Shamir himself is an unlikely al-Qaida ally.)

Such prohibitions restrict honest commerce without restricting the bad 
guys.
 
> It's been about 10 years or so that PGP has been available over the
> net, hasn't it?  I suppose that, by now, it would have become
> available to "criminals" even had it not been so freely available.
> But then too, they didn't just start using it today either.  Perhaps
> we could have gotten Bin Laden, or foiled at least one of his earlier
> attacks, had his access to the technology been delayed, even by a
> short time.

I thought it had been conceded that Bin Laden's boys had been sending 
messages in the clear from public terminals?
....
> But I do seem to recall that a few folks thought that the govt
> concerns about PGP in the wrong hands were foolish and/or paranoid.
> That much, I think, is proven wrong.

IMHO, the concerns are not paranoid, but they are foolish in the sense 
that they imply such restrictions will work.  They won't. 

-- 
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21030
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:39:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Mara Progress Report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Ed--
     I can't begin to express how sorry I am to hear this and I wish you
all the luck and prayers I have available.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

Dogs have masters; cats have staff.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21031
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:43:40 -0500
Subject: Re: To those who've been around here long enuf to care...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Jai--
     The legal prohibition of this technology was a waste of time.  The
criminals who perceive the need for any prohibited technology are quite
capable of  stealing, duplicating, or smuggling it as necessary.  Or
hiring  their own code experts to come up with a version.

     To quote RAH:  "Prohibition hs never worked."  Our borders are a
joke; "prohibiting" exports is a much bigger one.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

Dogs have masters; cats have staff.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21032
From: Charles Graft 
Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2002 23:48:53 -0500
Subject: Re: Universe as in "Orphans
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Kaderli--

     It's always been among my least favorite Heinlein books -- it just
did not hang together properly.  The concept was interesting, though.
Did you catch the wrap-up in "Time Enough for Love"?

     Welcome to the board.

--
<<Big Charlie>>

Dogs have masters; cats have staff.



------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21033
From: filksinger@earthling.net
Date: 23 Apr 2002 19:29:40 GMT
Subject: Re: To those who've been around here long enuf to care...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Bill Dennis wrote:

************

Pure speculation, i admit
I just find it impossible to believe that they cannot defeat commercially
available encryption technology.

************

Well, cryptographers from around the world not only agree that they probably
can't, but lately, the NSA has been taking some serious knocks for being
_behind_ the times, rather than ahead. They've also taken knocks for crummy
implimentations such as the technically-flawed "Clipper" chip, further implying
that they are no longer the best.

It is generally agreed that the cryptographers working in the public sector
are just as good (or better) than anyone the NSA has, and there are a lot
more of them.

Filksinger

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21034
From: anonymous@sff.net (Anonymous Visitor)
Date: 23 Apr 2002 19:41:13 GMT
Subject: Re: To those who've been around here long enuf to care...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

Jai Johnson wrote:
************
Still, the issue was, IIRC, whether the legal prohibitions against the
export of such technology were justified.

It's been about 10 years or so that PGP has been available over the
net, hasn't it?
************

The technology was readily available to groups with government and big business
connections well before that. Granted, its use was more difficult, but it
certainly existed.

************
But I do seem to recall that a few folks thought that the govt
concerns about PGP in the wrong hands were foolish and/or paranoid.
That much, I think, is proven wrong.
************

Well, that depends upon how you mean "foolish and/or paranoid". I think
a lot of people got into a confrontational mindset, and started sounding
as if they were further from the middle than they really were. I don't think,
if asked point blank, that anyone would have said, "No, I don't think we
will ever have a case where lives could have been saved if we could have
read the message, but it will be encrypted with publically available encryption,
so we won't."

Instead, I think they felt that the inevitable abuse would be overwhelmed
by the positive uses. At the moment, it may not seem that way, but the human
rights uses for PGP alone make it more valuable than it is risky, IMHO.

Filksinger

------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21035
From: Bill Dauphin 
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 22:44:47 -0400
Subject: Re: Mara Progress Report
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum

On 4/20/02 6:13 PM, in article 08p3cuggk8gimgs3lfcmesepml8u13imb2@4ax.com,
"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net> wrote:

> On Thu, 18 Apr 2002 22:44:34 -0400, Bill Dauphin
> <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> 
> My wife SueEllen has been fighting  breast cancer for over
> 22 months now.  <sad and frightening details snipped>
> I am praying most often for her recovery.
> Thank you for you thoughts; you and Mara have my heartfelt wish for
> Mara's total recovery.
> Previous to this only JT, `rita and Doc have know of this.

Ed, I'm desperately sorry to hear of this, and sorrier still if my question
unnecessarily pressured you to drag it out in public. You can rest assured
you and SueEllen will be in our prayers. I'm glad for you both that she's
found a medical team that gives her hope.

The most remarkable thing to me about the oncology patients/families I've
met since Mara was diagnosed is their emotional resilience. We've met so
many people whose prognoses were far worse than ours, yet none who face live
with anything other than truly astounding courage and fortitude. I suppose
it's true that God doesn't send us anything we can't handle... It's just a
d@mned shame so many good folks have to learn just how much they can bear.

-JovBill


------------------------------------------------------------

============================================================
Archive of:   sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by:  webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Sun, 09 Jun 2002 22:44:15
First article in this archive:  21012
Last article in this archive:   21035
Oldest article in this archive: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 16:46:40 GMT
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