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Archive of: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Archive desc: The Internet home for the Heinlein Forum
Archived by: webnews@sff.net
Archive date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 01:47:44
============================================================
Article 21375
From: noone"
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 01:32:44 -0400
Subject: Re: another question from "no one
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
thank you to you and john both, i finally managed to get rec.music.filk on
my server and it's linked me to a number of other sites that i wouldn't have
found otherwise.
"gunner"
-------------------
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3d24b5ca.0@news.sff.net...
>
> "noone" <no_one@home> wrote in message news:3d1a32e9.0@news.sff.net...
> > actually it's me, "gunner" again, does anyone here happen to know of a
> > newsgroup like this devoted to filk music, exchanging lyrics and music
and
> > general gossip, either in sff.net or alt.binaries. info would be
> > appreciated, thanks.
> > "gunner"
>
> I heartily recommend rec.music.filk. I'd hang out there, if I had time. I
> did for a while, then they took away my cushy job.:(
>
> --
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21376
From: Eli Hestermann
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 07:42:25 -0400
Subject: Magic, Inc. review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Here it is; comments welcome.
Magic, Inc. © Robert A. Heinlein 1940
Original (September, 1940) site of publication unknown. Collected in
Waldo and Magic, Inc. and The Fantasies of Robert A. Heinlein.
“Magic, Inc.” takes the reader to a world where magic not only exists,
but is licensed and practiced like medicine or law, used by businessmen,
and abused by criminals. Our protagonist, Archie Fraser, runs a
construction supply company and employs his share of magicians. When he
receives visits from a businessman looking to sign him to an exclusive
deal with a new agency and a hoodlum who wants protection money to make
sure no magic goes bad, Archie begins to suspect something is up. Soon
he’s battling powers he can’t understand with the help of an unlikely
group of friends: a frail old fortune-teller, an Oxford-educated
“witch-smeller” from Congo, an out of work magician, and another
businessman who dabbles in magic and the darker art: politics.
Like many of Heinlein’s stories, this one creates plot devices and
anticipates future social issues that are now familiar. Readers of
Piers Anthony’s Incarnations of Immortality series will recognize a
world where magic and technology exist side-by-side and compete in the
business world. Decades before the black pride and feminist movements
were in full swing, “Magic, Inc.” included commentaries on the dignity
of African culture and a “male-created romantic tradition” where women
“were not encouraged to think, nor to assume social responsibility.”
The story also shows that, to paraphrase Clarke’s Third Law, any
sufficiently dirty politics is indistinguishable from black magic. And
while the plot centers on the timeless bait-and-switch technique used to
create a monopoly, the plight of a small business owner fighting a
powerful corporation resonates in this time of WalMart and The Gap.
Ultimately, “Magic, Inc.” succeeds because Muggles like us can identify
with Archie’s desire to provide reasonable service for a reasonable
price and his bewilderment at the forces (magical, criminal, political)
that only seem interested in getting in his way.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@tmlp.com
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21377
From: David Wright"
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 09:35:54 -0400
Subject: Re: Magic, Inc. review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Eli Hestermann" <ehestermann@tmlp.com> wrote in message
news:3D26D7A0.9AD0F339@tmlp.com...
> Here it is; comments welcome.
>
> Magic, Inc. © Robert A. Heinlein 1940
>
> Original (September, 1940) site of publication unknown. Collected in
> Waldo and Magic, Inc. and The Fantasies of Robert A. Heinlein.
>
(Snip Excellent Outline)
Eli. Story originally published in Unknown magazine and is collected also in
"Three By Heinlein".
Good Job.
David Wright
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21378
From: Dee"
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 13:21:37 -0500
Subject: Re: Magic, Inc. review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Eli--
It's great! Don't change a word, except to add the info David S.
provided.
--Dee
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21379
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 20:30:25 GMT
Subject: Re: More Reviews
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
And "Elsewhen" and "Magic, Inc."
Sort of curious that we're pretty well covering the stories in the
new collection "The Fantasies of RAH"--a catagory (fantasy) that for
many of these I don't agree with.
Deb (D.A. Houdek)
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21380
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 20:37:08 GMT
Subject: New Assignment for Reviewers
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Those writing and contributing reviews, I have a new assignment for
you...
Each of you write a brief bio (2 or 3 sentences--who you are, what
you do, RAH connection, first RAH... whatever you want).
Also do a list of your five favorite Heinleins, short stories or
novels.
_And_ a list of five of your top picks for "If you like RAH you'll
like..." sf books by other authors.
If you have homepages or such you'd like linked from your reviews,
let me know and I'll add them to your pieces. Also, please check the
email address I linked on the copyright notice at the top of the
pages. Those I type in manually (no cut and paste on that feature) so
typos very possible).
Thanks,
Deb (D.A. Houdek)
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21381
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 20:44:35 GMT
Subject: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
My picks for "If You Like RAH, You'll Like..." books...
1. Little Fuzzy by Piper
2. Oath of Fealty by Niven
3. Rite of Passage by Panshin
4. Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by Adams
5. Holidays in Hell by O'Roarke (non-fiction)
Deb (D.A. Houdek)
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21382
From: Charles Graft
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 15:49:04 -0500
Subject: Re: Hello again
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Ed--
I have a rather longish log of the Alaskan trip I wrote while on
it. I can E-mail you a copy, or if others seem interested, I can post
it.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
"Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by
jackasses." -- H. L. Menken
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21383
From: Dee"
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 17:21:46 -0500
Subject: Re: Hello again
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3D2757BF.AEE642E5@aol.com...
> I have a rather longish log of the Alaskan trip I wrote while on
> it. I can E-mail you a copy, or if others seem interested, I can post
> it.
I'm other; I'm interested.
--Dee
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21384
From: Michael P. Calligaro"
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 15:42:43 -0700
Subject: Re: Hi Everyone
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Obviously those people have never really used a computer before...
bytor
"Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org> wrote in message
news:3d2584ab.0@news.sff.net...
> I like the gremlin theory, too, as I don't really _believe_ I changed
> anything. But saying that out loud gets one wary reactions, and
significant
> looks are exchanged between listeners, sometimes accompanied by circular
> gestures near the temple.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21385
From: Michael P. Calligaro"
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 15:45:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Hi Everyone
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Nothing theoretical about alpha particles. And they don't need to come from
cosmic rays. They can come from the silicon the ram is made of. They're
frequent enough that we used to design our mainframes around the assumption
that they'd affect us.
bytor
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3d25e6ff.0@news.sff.net...
> The list of reasons those settings can change includes software glitches,
> power spikes, power dips, and (in theory) cosmic ray particles passing
> through your CPU at the wrong moment.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21386
From: Voxwoman
Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2002 20:35:36 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I'd like to add Spider Robinson to the list. Don't have a particular
book or story in mind, though.
and there's a few PJ O'Roarke books that may also be added to
"Holidays:" "Parliament of Whores" (scathingly funny observations about
the US government), and "Give War a Chance"
Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
> My picks for "If You Like RAH, You'll Like..." books...
>
> 1. Little Fuzzy by Piper
> 2. Oath of Fealty by Niven
> 3. Rite of Passage by Panshin
> 4. Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by Adams
> 5. Holidays in Hell by O'Roarke (non-fiction)
>
>
> Deb (D.A. Houdek)
> http://www.dahoudek.com
> http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21387
From: Dee"
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 19:41:22 -0500
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I would add Pournelle's John Christian Falkenburg novels, and Dickson's
Dorsai series, as well as Spider (echooing voxwoman.)
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21388
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2002 21:05:54 -0700
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Classic" Authors:
Eric Frank Russell
Clifford D. Simak
Current Authors:
David Feintuch The "Hope" or Nick Seafort" series
Robert J. Sawyer THE TERMINAL EXPERIMENT
Connie Willis (very personal preference!)
--
Later,
`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
news:3d29553b.7312241@NEWS.SFF.NET...
>
> My picks for "If You Like RAH, You'll Like..." books...
>
> 1. Little Fuzzy by Piper
> 2. Oath of Fealty by Niven
> 3. Rite of Passage by Panshin
> 4. Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by Adams
> 5. Holidays in Hell by O'Roarke (non-fiction)
>
>
> Deb (D.A. Houdek)
> http://www.dahoudek.com
> http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21389
From: noone"
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 00:08:00 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
1. most certainly! excellent, even the later post mortem "fuzzy" stories by
other writers
2. another good one, with a very good quote, "think of it as evolution in
action", i've passed that one on to some of my police friends for use when a
goblin does something stupid enough to get himself shot.
3. sorry, i don't read p*nsh*n (if you speak the devil's name he may
appear.)
4. a bit too silly for my taste but there are those who seem to like it.
5. haven't read that one but enjoyed others by him, another trip to the
library to annoy my liberal librarian.
.... and both dee's and voxwoman's suggestions are very good. some of the
"falkenberg's legion" stories are almost good as textbooks for "low
intensity conflict"
"gunner"
"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
news:3d29553b.7312241@NEWS.SFF.NET...
>
> My picks for "If You Like RAH, You'll Like..." books...
>
> 1. Little Fuzzy by Piper
> 2. Oath of Fealty by Niven
> 3. Rite of Passage by Panshin
> 4. Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by Adams
> 5. Holidays in Hell by O'Roarke (non-fiction)
>
>
> Deb (D.A. Houdek)
> http://www.dahoudek.com
> http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21390
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 06:55:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Hello again
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
> I'm other; I'm interested.
Yes, me too
Deb (D.A. Houdek)
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21391
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 17:45:20 GMT
Subject: Re: Hello again
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 06:55:23 GMT, debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek
Rule) wrote:
>
>> I'm other; I'm interested.
>
> Yes, me too
>
Me three! Heck, I'd like to hear about the wedding, too, and see some
pictures on an online photo album somewhere from somebody. Hint Hint.
<VBG--D&R!>
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21392
From: Eli Hestermann
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:50:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Magic, Inc. review
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
David Wright wrote:
> Eli. Story originally published in Unknown magazine and is collected also in
> "Three By Heinlein".
>
> Good Job.
Thanks on both points. I didn't know "Unknown" was the actual title of the
magazine; hence my confusion.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@tmlp.com
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21393
From: Eli Hestermann
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 13:53:34 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I'm being completely unoriginal in saying that John Barnes is a
successor of Heinlein. Just finished _Mother of Storms_ and thought it
was wonderful - better than either of the Thousand Cultures followups,
which I also just read.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@tmlp.com
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21394
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 19:39:11 GMT
Subject: Re: More Reviews
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
And Waldo is added.
Deb (D.A. Houdek)
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21395
From: Bill Dauphin
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 20:38:08 -0400
Subject: Re: More Reviews
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On 7/5/02 3:34 PM, in article 3d25f40d.2260901@NEWS.SFF.NET, "Deb Houdek
Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote:
>How are the rest coming?
I've had a setback with _Door Into Summer_: I had to make a roadtrip last
week, and volunteered thinking I'd re-read the book in motels along the
way... But I couldn't locate my copy before I had to leave. I've scrounged
up a copy now, but it might be a week or two before I have a review ready. I
still intend to do it, but if anyone else wants to/can get it done before
me, I'll step aside.
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21396
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2002 22:10:19 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Allen Steele; various books
John Varley; Steel Beach, The Golden Globe
Lester Del Rey; Nerves, Rocket Jockey (a juvenile!)
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21397
From: Geo Rule
Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2002 19:58:14 -0700
Subject: Re: More Reviews
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
No way. You called it; you're stuck with it.<g>
On Sun, 07 Jul 2002 20:38:08 -0400, Bill Dauphin
<dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>On 7/5/02 3:34 PM, in article 3d25f40d.2260901@NEWS.SFF.NET, "Deb Houdek
>Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote:
>
>>How are the rest coming?
>
>I've had a setback with _Door Into Summer_: I had to make a roadtrip last
>week, and volunteered thinking I'd re-read the book in motels along the
>way... But I couldn't locate my copy before I had to leave. I've scrounged
>up a copy now, but it might be a week or two before I have a review ready. I
>still intend to do it, but if anyone else wants to/can get it done before
>me, I'll step aside.
>
>-JovBill
Geo Rule
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
****
Specializing in the Confederate Secret Service,
the Sultana, Gratiot St. Prison, Jesse James & Friends,
Copperheads, the Northwest Conspiracy, and the Damn Dutch
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21398
From: Voxwoman
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 07:40:21 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Yes, I like Barnes, too. Did he write "Locusts" by himself or with
Niven? (some of the Niven/Barnes and Niven/Barnes/Pournelle novels were
less than fantastic, but his solo work is very interesting)
Eli Hestermann wrote:
> I'm being completely unoriginal in saying that John Barnes is a
> successor of Heinlein. Just finished _Mother of Storms_ and thought it
> was wonderful - better than either of the Thousand Cultures followups,
> which I also just read.
>
> --
> Eli V. Hestermann
> ehestermann@tmlp.com
> "Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21399
From: Dee"
Date: Mon, 8 Jul 2002 06:47:23 -0500
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Voxwoman wrote:
> Yes, I like Barnes, too. Did he write "Locusts" by himself or with
> Niven? (some of the Niven/Barnes and Niven/Barnes/Pournelle novels were
> less than fantastic, but his solo work is very interesting)
Eli Hestermann wrote:
> > I'm being completely unoriginal in saying that John Barnes is a
> > successor of Heinlein. Just finished _Mother of Storms_ and thought it
> > was wonderful - better than either of the Thousand Cultures followups,
> > which I also just read.
Isn't the Barnes who has collaborated with N & P Stephen Barnes?
--Dee
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21400
From: Voxwoman
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 10:48:51 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
yes, it is. Age is getting to me. (Age and not paying attention)
-Wendy
Dee wrote:
> Voxwoman wrote:
>
>>Yes, I like Barnes, too. Did he write "Locusts" by himself or with
>>Niven? (some of the Niven/Barnes and Niven/Barnes/Pournelle novels were
>>less than fantastic, but his solo work is very interesting)
>>
>
> Eli Hestermann wrote:
>
>>>I'm being completely unoriginal in saying that John Barnes is a
>>>successor of Heinlein. Just finished _Mother of Storms_ and thought it
>>>was wonderful - better than either of the Thousand Cultures followups,
>>>which I also just read.
>>>
>
> Isn't the Barnes who has collaborated with N & P Stephen Barnes?
>
> --Dee
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21401
From: Charles Graft
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 10:51:39 -0500
Subject: Alaskan Trip
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
OK, guys; here it all is:
_________________________________
WEDDING & TRIP LOG
June 14th, 2002 Friday Wedding prep day
Pat picked up Lori and I picked up Greg. Greg and I went to
Gordon's (food service) arriving at 8:30, where they did not have our
order ready for us that was supposed to be ready at 8:00. It was after
nine when we got out of there. We delivered a quite full station wagon
load to the church. We got the rehearsal in and the food for the
reception (a lunch cold buffet) set up in the basement. The helpers
were Keith, Greg, Lori and Teresa (Fields). Keith is Patricia's long
time friend (since elementary school) and a lay officer in the church
who had suggested we might want to use it in the first place. Following
this, we all had a rehearsal lunch at the eastside Ryan's. After this
was my nap time. John Paul and Les, a couple who met on our newsgroup
and met in person at an Indianapolis gathering, and their son John
(these are the people who lived quite close to where Jon lives) came by
with Greg and Beth to see our new house. We then had pizza at Greg and
Beth's house. After that, I went to the old house where I was isolated
from seeing the bride on the wedding day.
June 15th, 2002 Saturday Wedding day
It was a pretty easy day for me. Everything was in place. Greg
picked me up about 11:30 and delivered me to the church. We stopped to
pick up several bags of ice on the way. I had gone ahead and gotten
dressed, and so neither Greg nor Keith were willing to let me do much
setting up for fear of being killed by Patricia should I spill something
on me. there was not a lot to set up; everything had been prepared and
there were cards on the serving table showing where to place each item.
I had made rather large batches of chip dip and potato salad which were
to supplement the commercial products; but the crew not finding the
commercial potato salad resulted in it not being put out. I was
surprised that the quantity I made lasted as long as it did. But I was
also surprised at the sheer quantity of leftovers. It wasn't as hungry
a bunch as I expected.
The ceremony went very well, I thought. Patricia looked radiant
and I was passable. It lasted about 25 minutes, the photos took
longer. I quite enjoyed the reception. I haven't figured the count
yet, but am guessing about 80.
We got away from the church after the clean up a bit past five. At
this point we had our major glitch of the day; the marriage certificates
were not in out hands. They have been given by the minister to Keith to
pass on to us. He placed then in the office where "they would be safe"
and managed to forget them. This was a big deal because I had made the
airline and ship reservations in the name of "Mrs. Graft". I did that
mainly because that was how Comair wanted it done upon my previous
marriage. After some rather frantic calls, we were met by one of the
officers of the church at the church who handed us the papers. It
wasn't as far out of the way as it could have been, but we did this on
the way to Lynn's house, where we spent time with my family. We went
back to our house, and got in too little sleep.
June 16th, 2002 Sunday Travel to cruise day -- Seattle
We were off to an early start. Our flights were scheduled for 6:10
in the morning. We were up even earlier due mostly to excitement and
opened the wedding presents. Greg came by and joined us for a bit then
drove us to the airport. I was carrying two suitcases, the camcorder
bag, and the laptop. (The Nikon camera gear was already packed in one
of the suitcases.) Patricia had two suitcases, a garment bag, a very
small purse, and a small miscellaneous bag. So out first encounter was
with a rather snooty USAirways agent who informed us that it would cost
us a $60 premium as we were packed. So I ended up putting the computer
inside one of my suitcases, and Patricia put her purse into her
carryall. What this peabrain did not bother to tell us was that we were
allowed one personal item, such as a laptop or purse, each in addition
to the carryon. She also gave us a bit of hassle about the ID, by a
supervisor walking by cleared that up without further problem. So we
had no need of this whole scene. The first leg of the flight was to
Charlotte NC (Boeing 737) and the second (Airbus 321) nonstop to
Seattle. This was a five hour plus flight. I stood in line for the
rental car while Patricia waited for the luggage. Everything came
together quite nicely and in good shape. We drove to Bothell where we
stayed at the Sierra Suites motel. We had lunch at a place called
Canyons, checked in, contacted Michael Calligaro (one of my friends in
that area), and took a nap. He came by around seven and treated at a
Chinese BBQ. I had been figuring two hours or so for the drive to
Vancouver; he was thinking five or six was likely. My estimate proved
to be the correct one.
June 17th, 2002 Monday Cruise board day -- Vancouver B. C.
Again, an early start. Still worried about the dire predictions of
the travel times, but awake in any case, we hit the road after partaking
of the breakfast at the motel. Patricia drove while I studied the maps
and information and figured out where we had to go. The border crossing
took us about three minutes. We located the pier (Patricia, who was
driving, spotted the ship before I did) then looked around for a place
to have lunch. We found an area called "Gastown" and picked a rather
nice restaurant in the area. I bought some Canadian money at an
exchange place and it made it convenient. We had some rain start so we
added an umbrella to our collection. We got back to the pier, dropped
off the car with the parking service, and played "hurry up and wait" for
about an hour to get boarded. The ship (M/S Norwegian Wind) was docked
on the port side.
When I first made the reservation, I had settled on a rather small
inside stateroom. Later, I got a telephone call offering upgrades, and
selected a somewhat larger stateroom with a rather large (5' by 5')
outside view window. I presented the upgrade to Patricia as a birthday
present and it was one of he best things I had done in a long time. The
extra room was much appreciated, but being able to lounge in the room
while watching the gorgeous scenery go by makes a lot more difference.
It was still raining pretty good as we boarded. We had a nap then
hit the "Sports Bar & Grill" (top deck aft) for dinner. This is top
deck aft and has a wonderful view. There is at least coffee available
24 hours a day and with rather good buffets at mealtimes.
Four of our five bags were delivered to our cabin pretty quickly
but the other did not arrive until almost nine. This caused a bit of
worry; but it worked out.
The ship got away from the dock about six and we watched the
scenery go by for a while before starting to play some more catch up on
our sleep.
I've stayed with my pattern of being awake for a few hours in the
middle of the night. (I forced myself into a "normal" pattern once;
this is when my system got upset and I got queasy.) This time is used
to play with the computer and to type this log.
June 18th, 2002 Tuesday First full cruise day -- at sea
We got in to what became a pattern of showing up at Sport's (the
buffet meal place) before they opened for breakfast, munching on fruit
rolls until they did open, and having breakfast when they did open.
This would usually get us one of our favorite seats at the window
overlooking the stern of the ship. Then we attended a lecture on "furry
sea animals" featuring seals, sea otters, and sea lions. We enjoyed
it. We had lunch at the "pizzaria" a very small buffet stuck into the
corner of the main swimming pool deck. We checked out the on board
store but found nothing we could not live without. I have no notes that
we did much else that afternoon -- we probably napped.
Dinner was our first foray into the (one of) the "formal" dining
rooms -- the "Four Seasons". It was quite excellent -- we both had
oysters Rockefeller and the Caribbean lobster tails. The service was
also was excellent. And no check. One could get spoiled.
There was a "Meet the Captain" (Captain Kjell Holm) photo session
that was followed by a "Captain's Welcome Party" where the campaign was
free. We did get in a dance to live "big band" music. I then came back
to the cabin and faded out; Patricia attended a show "Jump, Jive and
Wail" which see reported was quite good.
June 19th, 2002 Wednesday Second day -- Juneau
Started off with a time change. We are now on Alaskan time. We
were up early watching wonderful scenery pass by our cabin windows. We
went to an early breakfast (sports bar) where we saw what we believe
were killer whales or perhaps Minke whales, while sitting at breakfast.
We are now sitting waiting for the ship's Alaskan expert to talk about
dolphins. I went by the "Internet Cafe" and cleaned up a massive amount
of spam, received and replied to one good e-mail, and made motel
reservations for later in the vacation. Patricia took a few laps
walking around the deck afterwards. Lunch was at "The Terraces",
another fancy dining room which did not impress us as much as the "Four
Seasons"
(Later) The talk was enjoyable. Patricia napped while I played
with the computer. We had lunch at another of the restaurants (The
Terraces). Not as pleasant as the first of the "luxury" experiences.
We docked on schedule about 2:00. There were three other cruise
ships in the harbor. The weather was still a bit overcast; so we
explored the tourist area of the town. Things were a bit pricey, but in
a tourist area in a reputedly expensive area that was to be expected.
We docked on the port side and our deck was just above the pier level.
We explored around town, stashed our "treasures" in the cabin, then took
the Mt. Roberts (why do I not have any difficulty remembering that
name?) Tramway at what turned out to be the clearest portion of the
day. (Our timing has been quite good this trip.) Excellent views, but
not much else of interest (to me) up there. Patricia stayed for a
showing of a nature movie; I came back to the cabin and took a nap. I
was feeling overloaded (with cameras) and a bit under the weather.
Probably something I ate. But this was also the time I was playing with
forcing myself onto a normal schedule.
Dinner at Sports. Left Juneau about nine.
June 20th, 2002 Thursday Third day -- Skagway & Haines
While I was doing my middle of the night wakefulness, I noted that
I could see as many as four other cruise ships from the cabin window.
This was the only day on our schedule during which we docked at two
different ports. Breakfast at Sports was a bit crowded as we docked at
Skagway (starboard side) about 7:00 AM and several excursions were
getting under way. This is the home of the White Pass and Yukon
(tourist) Railroad. As the excursions were Diesel powered and quite
pricey I could not justify it. Skagway was a rather notorious mining
boom town, now supported mostly by tourism. There was a shuttle bus
into town. The driver informed us that they had reached 80 yesterday.
40 degrees of temperature and 40 knots of wind. We found more
reasonably priced souvenirs, and I did some Christmas shopping. We
mailed a bulky package back to the house, (I talked postal with the girl
manning the counter). We then attended a rather very well done show
(The Days of '98) based on a famous (for Alaska) gunfight in 1898. Both
parties died.
We had lunch at the Four Seasons restaurant, which has become our
favorite. I had meatloaf and mashed potatoes. It rated about a C-. I
had both a salad and gazpacho soup, a cold spicy soup which I had always
wanted to try. It rated much higher.
My high point of the day was the bridge tour (allowed only in port
under current regulations). Among other things, I learned that there
were as many as eight other ships in sight at one time during the night.
Some facts and figures about the M/S Norwegian Wind:
Length: 754 feet
Width: 94 feet
Height: 164 feet
Draft: 22 feet
Normal speed: 20 knots (23 mph)
Max. speed: 21 knots (24.2 mph)
Fuel: Heavy bunker fuel (C) which has to be heated to 300 degrees to
flow is used. Normal fuel consumption is 1,120 gallons per hour. At
economy speed (18 knots), there is enough capacity (475,500 gallons)
for 14 days cruising.
Engines:
4 main engines (Diesel) totaling 25,130 HP
3 Auxiliary engines for power production. Each of these is larger
(about 900 HP) than those on the locomotive I usually run. There are
also shaft generators.
The propellers (2) are variable pitch and reversing.
The ship also has bow thrusters and stabilizers.
We left Skagway about 4:30 and had what I was told was a rather
beautiful passage to Haines. I was asleep.
Dinner was a BBQ on the pool deck (weather permitting) and was
ended by a light sprinkle. They served a flame grilled lamb, lamb being
one of Patricia's favorites. So we went to Sport's, which was very
uncrowded, to get coffee and finish up. They offered the same lamb cut,
but it was baked and not quite as good.
We then went into Haines and did our exploring. After we got back
to the ship, we attended an excellent ventriloquist show at 9:00 PM by
Don Bryan. We each had a strawberry daiquiri, which wiped out Patricia,
who left the show early to return to the cabin.
The ship got under way at 10:30. We slept through it.
June 21st, 2002 Friday Fourth day -- Glacier Bay Cruising
This was "the" day. Summer solstice and glacier bay. We were up
early for our usual breakfast (Sports) then headed for the ship's
observatory (Top deck forward) to do the serious scenery watching. And
it was worth it. It was windy and overcast as we approached the glacier
but by the time we arrived, the sun was in and out and the wind ad died
out. One of the big problems here is the matter of scale. The air in
so clear that scenery that looks a half mile or so away can be much
further. Then one is startled to see the matchbox sized house on the
shoreline is a good sized two story one. Or that the little boat
halfway in between is a four deck ferry.
When we first spotted the glacier, it did not look all that
impressive. But it kept growing as we got closer and appeared to get to
be twice as tall as the ship. I shot up a lot of video, digital
pictures, and film but none of it will come close to capturing the awe
of being there. We did see and hear several "calving" incidents, but
there was enough delay and echoes that I was not able to get one on
videotape. The one time I came close, the camera had just shut itself
off.
We had lunch, rather crowded at Sport's, but I got my hot dog /
hamnpurger fix. Afterwards, I hooked the digital camera to the TV set
and we had fun reviewing the pictures.
There are at least two other couples on board who got married that
same day we did. There was a honeymooner's gathering with free
Champaign and cake where we had fun comparing notes. We checked out a
"Pacific Rim Buffet" that was mostly sushi then went to dinner at Four
Seasons and lucked into one of the really prime seats -- a table for two
in the "bubble" extending out over the hull. This was the "President's
Dinner" in which the selections were made for various U. S. presidents.
The appetizer was smoked salmon and caviar, followed by a crab soup.
Patricia had lamb (President Reagan); I had a beef tenderloin (President
Johnson) in mushroom sauce. Both were quite good, though Patricia still
thinks the flame broiled lamb she had the other day was the best.
After dinner we came to the cabin and watched part of a DVD movie
(Cat Ballou) on this computer. Then fell asleep.
It never got totally dark tonight; at midnight we could see a
sunrise line on the horizon. As I am typing (about three) it is morning
twilight outside.
June 22nd, 2002 Saturday Fifth day -- Ketchican
After the usual breakfast schedule, we docked in Ketchican about
nine. It is much more of a town that I was expecting. I got in a quick
nap then we took a horse drawn (Belgian draft horses, Lynn) trolley ride
and saw most of the sights. (The proper term here is horsecar.
"Trolley" refers to the pole that draws power from overhead power
lines. But then again, your traditional horsecar ran on rails. Oh,
well.)
We had lunch (Sport's) then checked out a salmon shop. Then she
went shopping and I went to the Internet kiosk to get my fix. I then
came back to the ship and am updating this. She got back not long after
I finished typing this. We finished watching "Cat Ballou" and quick
napped a bit.
We even dressed fancy for the "Farewell dinner" which was in the
"Four Seasons" and quite good as usual. It was raining pretty good as
we left port. Afterwards, we went to show "Sea Legs Circus at Sea",
featuring a quite good gymnast, which was quite well done. This was
followed by a special presentation saying "thank you" from the officers
and crew.
June 23rd, 2002 Sunday Sixth day -- at sea
Cruising the inside passage. We are sufficiently out to sea that
there is no land in sight, at least on our (port) side of the ship. We
are getting a bit of motion on the ship but one would have to be
extremely sensitive to get seasick on this vessel. Not at all like my
pervious trips across the Atlantic. We slept relatively late; Patricia
is still asleep. (Seven o'clock; but there was an hour added for time
zones last night.)
The rest of the day was pretty laid back. We attended the talk
from the "Alaskan expert" (her third talk of three). We had lunch at
Sport's during which time we saw several of the smaller whales and a
humpback put on a show for us. I attended a presentation by the chief
engineer on the "nuts and bolts" of the ship. He answered several of
the questions I had accumulated.
Dinner was an Italian dinner at the Terraces. We were pretty well
packed by dinnertime. We did go out on deck at an early hours of the
morning to find a beautiful full moon. We didn't stay too long as the
wind was whipping up.
June 24th 2002 Monday Last cruise day -- Vancouver
The weather was beautiful -- especially for Vancouver. We were in
one of the last groups to disembark, but it was handled quite well. We
met up with our luggage, it took us only a few minutes to retrieve our
car keys and the car was already parked on the pier. We headed for the
Vancouver Aquarium, at which our guest lecturer was a volunteer, and
quite enjoyed a beluga (arctic) whale show. Then a pacific (striped)
dolphin show, and a lot of other good exhibits. This was mostly written
as we were waiting for the 3:00 ferry to Victoria, but is now coming to
you from Victoria, BC, Canada. It was a great cruise! We are settled
in at our motel (got here about 5:30), and will probably try shortly to
get some dinner.
We went to Wharf Street for dinner at a place called Chandler's at
which the food was excellent but the service not as good. She had
scallops; I had salmon.
June 25, 2002 Tuesday Touring Victoria
We were later than usual getting up. This was our "tour Victoria"
day. Out first item if interest was the Craigdarroch Castle, built in
the 1880s by the local major coal baron. Originally on over 23 acres,
it got subdivided and sold off in the early 1900s. Since then, it had
been a military hospital, a school, headquarters for the school board,
and restoration was started in the 1970s. Having been King Ludwig III's
castles, it was kind of small and not nearly as ostentatious, but the
quality of workmanship, especially the woodwork, was outstanding. A
very beautiful place, but with much restoration to go. We had lunch at
a Chinese buffet. I think every city on the west coast has its
Chinatown; Vancouver and Victoria did as did Seattle. We then did the
tour of the Burchart Gardens, where the wife of a gravel pit baron did
not like having an abandoned gravel pit in her backyard. So it was
converted into a beautiful series of gardens and is now open to the
public. We had dinner afterwards and a restaurant built on piers over a
bay named Blue's Bayou restaurant, which had quite good seafood. A very
relaxing evening.
June 26, 2002 Wednesday Victoria & Seattle
We got up by alarm clock in order to catch the 9:00 AM ferry to
Vancouver. We could alternatively have taken a ferry direct to Port
Arthur (in the USA) but the schedule was very inconvenient, and we would
have had either a much longer drive or another ferry trip to get to
Seattle. We got off the ferry about 10:30 and about 11:00 got to the US
border. It took us almost two hours to get through the US customs
line. This seems to be another area (like airport security) of maximum
inconvenience for minimum results; only two (of four) customs booths
were manned. Hey, Lynn; can you arrange to "accidentally" sent their
paychecks to Timbuktu or somewhere? Why are we paying for a customs
service that can't even man their posts properly? The Canadian side of
the border did have bathrooms which we took advantage of.
We were quite hungry by this time (about 1:00) and so stopped at
McDonald's for lunch. We contacted Karen (Cottrell) by cell phone.
Pat(rick) had met her; he chauffeured us around the day we went to the
Boeing museum in 1992. That was the first meeting in person of those
who were (are) in the Heinlein Forum newsgroup. She also attended our
1994 gathering in Salem, Oregon. We met at the display of a Russian
cobra class (diesel electric) submarine. Patricia had to drop out of
the below decks tour; the climbing around was awkward and she was
wearing a dress. It was one of the largest diesel subs ever built; ut
used the German technology of the engines turning the propeller shafts
with the motor generator attached. This was a three screw sub; I don't
believe any other country used that configuration. (American subs used
separate generators and motors. Usually four engines and two screws.)
We then hopped on the waterfront trolley (yes, a real one) and Karen
played tour guide to some of the tourist attractions, including a very
famous fish market. David Nasset was the other HF member in the area;
he had to work until 7:30 and his ride did not match his schedule, so we
did quite a logistical run-around -- met Karen at a "Seattle's Best
Coffee" place in Factoria. I picked up a couple of quite good gyro
sandwiches as it had been a long time since lunch. We picked David up
in Factoria (this was the first time I had met him), then met his wife,
Tanja, at the "Red Robin" in Kent. I had an excellent hamburger and
onion rings. We broke up about 10:00, Patricia and I headed for our
motel room essentially at the airport.
June 27, 2002 Thursday Returning home
We had the alarm set for 5:15; I woke up a bit before 5:00 and so
took a bath. The room was very large, very nice and it would have been
even nicer had we had the time to do anything but sleep. But the flight
back was at 8:10 and we showed up at the airport just before 6:00. I
dropped the bags and Patricia off at the curbside check in and turned in
the rental car (Ford Escort from Hertz) which had worked quite well for
us. I got back just before the curbside check in, and was surprised by
the fact the we did not get hit for identification at that point. We
got through security with minimal hassle and had breakfast from Burger
King. The flight loaded on time and was only a little late in getting
off. This is being written in flight (Boeing 757).
Notes:
Those of you who have had cruises may notice the lack of a rigid
schedule for meals and so forth. Norwegian Cruise Lines is build around
"Freestyle Cruising" -- you have you meals when and where it takes your
fancy, no formal dress required, for much of anything. The daily
schedule lists what restaurants are open when. There is one very fancy
surcharged restaurant, Le Bistro, with a ($10.00) cover charge and
charges for some of the menu selections, but neither Patricia nor I am
in to fancy French cuisine.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
"Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by
jackasses." -- H. L. Menken
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21402
From: Charles Graft
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 10:57:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Alaskan Trip -- Pictures
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
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--
<<Big Charlie>>
"Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by
jackasses." -- H. L. Menken
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<br>--
<br><<Big Charlie>>
<p>"Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals
by jackasses." -- H. L. Menken
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--------------92EAF7A680A8324B28D29358--
--------------37AE00BE87935856189D319A--
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21403
From: Ed Johnson
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 17:20:52 -0400
Subject: Re: Alaskan Trip
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
BC: Wow! That made for a very good read. Thanks for sharing that
with us.
My wife and I have been to Seattle, met with Michael and Julie
Calligaro and then drove to Vancouver to spend several days
sight-seeing. Up there we saw one place where the cruise ships dock
and didn't those ships look big!
Welcome back to the lower 48 <g> and Best Wishes to you both.
Ed J
On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 10:51:39 -0500, Charles Graft
<chasgraft@aol.com> wrote:
>OK, guys; here it all is:
>_________________________________
>WEDDING & TRIP LOG
>
>June 14th, 2002 Friday Wedding prep day
>
> Pat picked up Lori and I picked up Greg. Greg and I went to
>Gordon's (food service) arriving at 8:30, where they did not have our
>order ready for us that was supposed to be ready at 8:00. It was after
>nine when we got out of there. We delivered a quite full station wagon
>load to the church. We got the rehearsal in and the food for the
>reception (a lunch cold buffet) set up in the basement. The helpers
>were Keith, Greg, Lori and Teresa (Fields). Keith is Patricia's long
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21404
From: Bill Dauphin
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 18:01:28 -0400
Subject: Re: More Reviews
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On 7/7/02 10:58 PM, in article ntvhiu8jv5l9a08gn3r3tro3jpjmqbbivo@4ax.com,
"Geo Rule" <georule@civilwarstlouis.com> wrote:
>
> No way. You called it; you're stuck with it.<g>
Mind you, I wasn't trying to ditch the duty; just didn't want anyone to
think I was hogging a good story.
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21405
From: Bill Dauphin
Date: Mon, 08 Jul 2002 18:21:26 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On 7/8/02 7:40 AM, in article 3D297A25.1060501@hotmail.com, "Voxwoman"
<voxwoman@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, I like Barnes, too. Did he write "Locusts" by himself or with
> Niven? (some of the Niven/Barnes and Niven/Barnes/Pournelle novels were
> less than fantastic, but his solo work is very interesting)
I think you're mixing up *Steven* Barnes (Niven's sometime collaborator)
with *John* Barnes, who is the author of _Orbital Resonance_, the "Thousand
Cultures" books (_A Million Open Doors_, et seq.), the "Meme Wars" books
(_Kaleidoscope Century_, _Candle_, and, as it turns out, the aforementioned
_Orbital Resonance_), _Mother of Storms_, _One More for the Morning Glory_
(which has been compared to _The Princess Bride_), and a few others. *John*
Barnes has, AFAIK, never collaborated with Niven (with or without
Pournelle).
*Steven* Barnes has collaborated on some of (IMHO, of course) Niven's worst
efforts (e.g., the awful _Achilles' Choice_), but also on some of his best
(e.g., _Dream Park_ and its sequels). He has a significant body of solo
fiction, but I've never read any of it.
Like Eli, I greatly enjoyed _Mother of Storms_ (fair warning: some scenes
blend violence and sexuality in a way that will be uncomfortable for some
readers, and the book as a whole is inappropriate for very young readers),
but unlike Eli, I still think the "Thousand Cultures" books represent the
gold standard of (John) Barnes' work. I liken _Mother of Storms_ to
Niven/Pournelle's _Lucifer's Hammer)_, in that it feels to me more like a
mainstream "blockbuster" novel that happens to be based on science fictional
elements than a dedicated SF novel. I can picture either book as a
big-budget TV miniseries, or perhaps (in earlier days) an Irwin Allen movie.
By the by... Someone in this thread mentioned Allen Steele, and I'd like to
second that emotion. Steele always struck me as what RAH might have been
like if he'd come of age in the Vietnam/post-Vietnam era instead of during
WWII.
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21406
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 01:33:49 GMT
Subject: Re: Alaskan Trip
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 17:20:52 -0400, Ed Johnson
<eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote:
>BC: Wow! That made for a very good read. Thanks for sharing that
>with us.
I agree, BC. Thanks for posting it. Only problem is--now I'm hungry!
(Cruise dining was one of the best parts of the trip. ;)
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21407
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 01:41:33 GMT
Subject: Re: Alaskan Trip -- Pictures
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Mon, 08 Jul 2002 10:57:11 -0500, Charles Graft <chasgraft@aol.com>
wrote:
>
>--------------37AE00BE87935856189D319A
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
>[Image]
>
>[Image]
Nice pictures, BC.
For those of you who might have trouble seeing them, I had to copy the
text out to a .txt file and remove all the instances of "/par" that
were there due to the HTML formatting (via Find & Replace in WordPad)
before WinZip would decode the file.
Those of you using Outlook Express or Netscape News probably didn't
have any problems, but Free Agent is not as feature-rich. ;)
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21408
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 08:08:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Alaskan Trip -- Pictures
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>For those of you who might have trouble seeing them,
I couldn't figure out any way to see them. Agent wouldn't. Tried
directly on the web, on sff.net's site, and couldn't there. How else?
Deb (D.A. Houdek)
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21409
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 08:08:23 GMT
Subject: Re: Alaskan Trip
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>BC: Wow! That made for a very good read. Thanks for sharing that
>with us.
Indeed. Thanks, BC.
Made me want to go on that cruise.
Deb (D.A. Houdek)
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21410
From: Charles Graft
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 07:18:11 -0500
Subject: Re: Alaskan Trip -- Pictures
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb--
I used Netscape both to post the pictures and to bring them up.
Simply click on the posting in netscape, and likely in IE (I do not
normally use it) and they should come right up.
--
<<Big Charlie>>
"Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by
jackasses." -- H. L. Menken
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21411
From: Eli Hestermann
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 09:03:04 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Bill Dauphin wrote:
> Like Eli, I greatly enjoyed _Mother of Storms_ (fair warning: some scenes
> blend violence and sexuality in a way that will be uncomfortable for some
> readers, and the book as a whole is inappropriate for very young readers),
No kidding. I was disturbed by those scenes, and I knew better than to even
hint at the "hobby" of the President's chief of staff when describing one of
the plots to Dani. I found the violence more disturbing than the scenes in
Kaleidoscope Century, which was more violent, because the character in this
instance was more symapthetic, IMO.
> but unlike Eli, I still think the "Thousand Cultures" books represent the
> gold standard of (John) Barnes' work. I liken _Mother of Storms_ to
> Niven/Pournelle's _Lucifer's Hammer)_, in that it feels to me more like a
> mainstream "blockbuster" novel that happens to be based on science fictional
> elements than a dedicated SF novel. I can picture either book as a
> big-budget TV miniseries, or perhaps (in earlier days) an Irwin Allen movie.
Many spoilers follow.
I still think A Million Open Doors is better than Mother of Storms, but I
preferred the latter book to the second and third "Thousand Cultures" books. I
found the plot more engaging, the characters *much* better developed, and the
technological and social aspects of the work more deeply integrated in Mother
of Storms. The wealth of round characters was the best part of the book for
me. I could barely bring myself to hate the Chief of Staff, kept flipping back
and forth on the trillionaire, and enjoyed Mary Ann Waterhouse (aka Synthi
Venture) enormously, to name a few. I do agree on the "blockbuster" aspect -
Tom Clancy would've been proud of the number of viewpoints being juggled - but
I enjoyed the stretch from an author who usually sticks to first person or
limited third person accounts.
Actually, Bill (and anyone else who has read these), I've been wanting to
discuss Earth Made of Glass and The Merchants of Souls. I read them
back-to-back a couple weeks ago. The former mostly annoyed me because 1) I
figured out Margaret's affair about a third of the way through, and 2) I
couldn't work up any symapthy for the cultures who ultimately annihilated each
other. It felt like Giraut stumbled through both the personal and professional
matters in a way that seemed unlikely for such a talented and experienced
agent. EMOG suffered from second-of-the-trilogy syndrome (I know, he intends
to do 5 or so in this series), where the main point is to get the characters
where the author wants them for book 3 while trying to create an interesting
story.
I enjoyed TMOS much more, primarily for the flashbacks to Giraut's earlier days
- and I liked the device used to get the flashbacks. Giraut and Raimbaut's
encounters with Earth society (and Raimbaut's budding love life) were also
charming. However, the central plot didn't really hold together, and the
threat of selling psypix never seemed real. Worst of all, Margaret's
infidelity and the subsequent divorce came together with Giraut's failed
romance and Hedonist-Marine boy's (can't remember his name) death in what
struck me as a heavy-handed way to get Giraut and the cute Hedonist agent girl
together in book 4. Overall, TMOS had more of the flavor of the Timeline Wars
books, which were heavy on action and short on characterization, than AMOD,
_Mother of Storms_ or _Orbital Resonance_, which I would rank as Barnes best
work.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
Eli_Hestermann@dfci.harvard.edu
"Vita brevis est, ars longa." -Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21412
From: Filksinger"
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 14:19:24 -0700
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:B94F88A6.2F9-dauphinb@ix.netcom.com...
<snip>
> *Steven* Barnes has collaborated on some of (IMHO, of course) Niven's
worst
> efforts (e.g., the awful _Achilles' Choice_), but also on some of his best
> (e.g., _Dream Park_ and its sequels). He has a significant body of solo
> fiction, but I've never read any of it.
Talking about Steve Barnes reminded me of someone I would like to toss onto
the pile: Steve Perry. I met Steve Perry and Alan Dean Foster at my first
ever con. Foster couldn't have cared less, Perry got an instant fan before I
even bought his books.
His Matador trilogy (which is more than a trilogy now, but I'm way behind)
is marvelous. It is about a man, one Emile Antoon Kadaji, who, in the middle
of slaughtering rebelling civilians, has a revelation: this is _wrong_, and
walks straight out through the armed and advancing enemy. He then sets out,
with some odd help along the way, to single-handedly set into motion the
events that will destroy the Commonwealth and rebuild it as a free society.
While distinctly different in many ways from Heinlein's work, it also had,
IMHO, a distinctly Heinleinien flavor to it. The sex is a bit more graphic
than with Heinlein, however, if this bothers you.
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21413
From: Ed Johnson
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:38:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Alaskan Trip -- Pictures
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb: I too, had trouble opening them up at first. I saved each
photo file and renamed the file extension from *.jpeg to
*.jpg
Then I was able to open them both.
Ed J (2 cents)
On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 08:08:23 GMT, debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek
Rule) wrote:
>
>>For those of you who might have trouble seeing them,
>
> I couldn't figure out any way to see them. Agent wouldn't. Tried
>directly on the web, on sff.net's site, and couldn't there. How else?
>
>
>Deb (D.A. Houdek)
>http://www.dahoudek.com
>http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21414
From: David Silver
Date: Tue, 09 Jul 2002 17:48:32 -0700
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
> My picks for "If You Like RAH, You'll Like..." books...
>
>
I'm not as current as I once was in reading speculative fiction; but if
you like Heinlein, try Philip Wylie, John D. MacDonald, and Pat Frank.
All oldies but goodies. And some of their works are speculative fiction,
broadly or less-broadly defined.
David
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21415
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:58:25 GMT
Subject: Re: Alaskan Trip -- Pictures
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Tue, 09 Jul 2002 08:08:23 GMT, debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek
Rule) wrote:
>
>>For those of you who might have trouble seeing them,
>
> I couldn't figure out any way to see them. Agent wouldn't. Tried
>directly on the web, on sff.net's site, and couldn't there. How else?
>
>
If you see the attachment as encoded files as a part of the message,
then you see it like I do with Free Agent.
I had to (Windows-specific solution):
Copy the note out to WordPad.
Edit the file to get rid of the damn HTML (/par) at the end of every
line and save it with a .uue extension (UUEncode)
Then you can use your preferred UUEncode/Decoder to translate it back
to a picture file, usually just by clicking on it in Explorer. I use
WinZip 8.0
Hope being a little more specific helps. Agent is one program I
-wish- they'd "improve", but the company seems to have no interest in
it. I've been set to buy it for years, but they never actually update
it so there's no point.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21416
From: David Wright"
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 23:36:18 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"David Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3D2B8460.9000309@verizon.net...
> Deb Houdek Rule wrote:
>
> > My picks for "If You Like RAH, You'll Like..." books...
> >
> >
>
>
> I'm not as current as I once was in reading speculative fiction; but if
> you like Heinlein, try Philip Wylie, John D. MacDonald, and Pat Frank.
> All oldies but goodies. And some of their works are speculative fiction,
> broadly or less-broadly defined.
Looking far back into my misty memory, I seem to recall that Wylie's 'The
Smuggled Atom Bomb' (or some such title) had a vaguely HSSWT flavor to the
plot. An above average student (graduate level) who saves the USA from being
hit by a criminal organization with an A-bomb. Then he and the heroine, who
was Orange Bowl Queen, went back to their ordinary daily lives.
David Wright
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21417
From: Gordon G. Sollars
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 00:18:42 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
In article <3d29553b.7312241@NEWS.SFF.NET>, Deb Houdek Rule writes...
>
> My picks for "If You Like RAH, You'll Like..." books...
>
> 1. Little Fuzzy by Piper
> 2. Oath of Fealty by Niven
> 3. Rite of Passage by Panshin
> 4. Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by Adams
Well, as it happens, I do like the whole HGttG saga, but I'm not sure why
this follows from my liking of Mr. Heinlein's works. Did you have some
connection in mind, or, like me, do you just happen to like them both?
--
Gordon Sollars
gsollars@pobox.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21418
From: Michael P. Calligaro"
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:51:09 -0700
Subject: Re: More Reviews
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
You mean there are bad ones?
bytor
"Bill Dauphin" <dauphinb@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:B94F83F8.2F7-dauphinb@ix.netcom.com...
> Mind you, I wasn't trying to ditch the duty; just didn't want anyone to
> think I was hogging a good story.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21419
From: Michael P. Calligaro"
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 21:59:02 -0700
Subject: Re: Alaskan Trip
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Yeah, it's wierd. It's been about 8 years since I last went to Vancouver,
but I had this strong impression that I lived about halfway between Portland
and there. Portland definitely is 3-4 hours away, and it's definitely
possible to have an hour border crossing (though more likely coming into the
country than leaving it). I'm glad we checked with Julie.
bytor
"Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
news:3D29B50B.8CFF327D@aol.com...
> contacted Michael Calligaro (one of my friends in
> that area), and took a nap. He came by around seven and treated at a
> Chinese BBQ. I had been figuring two hours or so for the drive to
> Vancouver; he was thinking five or six was likely. My estimate proved
> to be the correct one.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21420
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:48:11 -0700
Subject: ranting and raving in Finley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Bill and the folks at the former Prodigy are definitely off my Christmas
list. If I could save money this HP poj would be running XP and be maxed
out at 512 Mb RAM, but... I should of bought Win98 for this thing when I
got it instead of learning to live with WinMe.
This new SBC Yahoo! that once was (and still answers to) Prodigy.net has
problems. Not the least of which is trying my patience. The silly dialer
works fine if you don't mind manually telling it to connect everytime even
when you click on an active desktop link or use "run" or click on a link in
the "Favorites" folder. I'm used to hearing my modem dial out as soon as I
click on something or type a link in "run." This having to tell the it to
connect is annoying. (So far three questions to various support locations
have gone unanswered.)
I liked Prodigy it was inexpensive, easy to navigate, and gave me choices
about how much of its proprietary junk I had to use. This new creature
started off by replacing my browser with their own version that opened a new
window every time you clicked a link, ignored POP-UP STOPPER, And generally
took over. Do I subscribe to AOL? (I told them several times in the above
mentioned semi-polite questions that I didn't and would not ever again have
AOL on any computer I owned by choice.)
Any way the clincher today was when I finally got around to redoing PGP.
Apparently PGP 6.5.8 and my system are in no way compatible. I got error
messages like I hadn't seen since the Tandy 386SX33 bit the big one.
(uninstalling seems to have fixed it.) The fun part was that silly dialer
would think it was disconnected, when the modem was happily doing its thing
tying up my phone line.
I know how to fix most of this problem. $$$$$$ I refuse to "invest" in
Lotto tickets, Uncle Sam isn't handing out big raises for Veterans or SS
recipients, I haven't invented an Improvement to BC's voting machine, and
any rich relatives are healthier than I am. (I'm already working more the
docs let me.)
Thanks for getting this far. It's been a fun month and this was a topper.
Skye was in the hospital for 3 days June 11- 14, Russ and I booted our
roommate, I've been not just sick but very sick for the last 10 days. On
the good side, Erin went back to work, Aaron's sister married the nicest nut
case (he'll fit right into the family,) Athena got her student teaching
assignment in Pasco, A&A should know whether they got their house by this
weekend (move in date is July 29) the lender has been dragging the paperwork
out.
But I'm F.I.N.E.*
--
Later,
`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
*frustrated, insecure, neurotic, emotional
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21421
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Tue, 9 Jul 2002 22:51:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Alaskan Trip
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
That would be the "other" Vancouver! <g, d,& hobble away very rapidly>
--
Later,
`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"Michael P. Calligaro" <bytor@mystikeep.com> wrote in message
news:3d2bbf0e.0@news.sff.net...
> Yeah, it's wierd. It's been about 8 years since I last went to Vancouver,
> but I had this strong impression that I lived about halfway between
Portland
> and there. Portland definitely is 3-4 hours away, and it's definitely
> possible to have an hour border crossing (though more likely coming into
the
> country than leaving it). I'm glad we checked with Julie.
>
> bytor
>
> "Charles Graft" <chasgraft@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:3D29B50B.8CFF327D@aol.com...
> > contacted Michael Calligaro (one of my friends in
> > that area), and took a nap. He came by around seven and treated at a
> > Chinese BBQ. I had been figuring two hours or so for the drive to
> > Vancouver; he was thinking five or six was likely. My estimate proved
> > to be the correct one.
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21422
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:00:52 GMT
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>> 4. Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by Adams
>
>Well, as it happens, I do like the whole HGttG saga, but I'm not sure why
>this follows from my liking of Mr. Heinlein's works. Did you have some
>connection in mind, or, like me, do you just happen to like them both?
There's something about the non sequitor way of looking at things
that puts me in mind of RAH when I read Hitchhikers. Stylistically,
they write very differently--though if you read Douglas Adams "Last
Chance to See" which is non-fiction travelogue I think it compares
quite reasonably to "Tramp Royale". Adams writes a bit quicker sarcasm
but they both have a sharp approach (also like PJ O'Roarke) that cuts
down to the essence of things.
Deb (D.A. Houdek)
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21423
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:00:52 GMT
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>I'm not as current as I once was in reading speculative fiction; but if
>you like Heinlein, try Philip Wylie, John D. MacDonald, and Pat Frank.
>All oldies but goodies. And some of their works are speculative fiction,
>broadly or less-broadly defined.
The only Pat Frank I've read was "Alas Babylon" and I almost put it
on the list. I also hedged over Nevil Shute's "On the Beach"--though
RAH almost always pull off the optimistic ending no matter what
disasters the people have faced (like in "Farmer in the Sky") whereas
"On the Beach" takes it right to the Kobiashi Maru (Star Trek ref.)
ending where the people have to cope with the ultimate no-win
situation.
Deb (D.A. Houdek)
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21424
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:00:53 GMT
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>John Varley; Steel Beach, The Golden Globe
Steel Beach... I was trying to think of the name of that one. An
RAH-ish flavor but I found no inclination to reread it, which seemed
to me the test. Have you?
Deb (D.A. Houdek)
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21425
From: Dee"
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 06:19:17 -0500
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
news:3d2cf6a8.3252510@NEWS.SFF.NET...
> The only Pat Frank I've read was "Alas Babylon" and I almost put it
> on the list.
That's the only Frank I have read, too, and I think I would put it on
the list also. Maybe "If You Liked . . ." _Tunnel_ or _Time Enough for
Love_ (the pioneering with Dora section)?
Maybe we should be talking about specific RAH works for IYL comparisons,
since RAH covers so much thematic and stylistic ground. Would that help our
esteemed editor in placing recommendaations with reviews?What do you think,
EE?
--Dee
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21426
From: Filksinger"
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 07:52:32 -0700
Subject: Re: ranting and raving in Finley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
'rita,
Good to hear _from_ you, bad to hear what is happening _to_ you. It doesn't
help that my problems are similar.
Filksinger
"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3d2bcaa9.0@news.sff.net...
> Bill and the folks at the former Prodigy are definitely off my Christmas
> list. If I could save money this HP poj would be running XP and be maxed
> out at 512 Mb RAM, but... I should of bought Win98 for this thing when I
> got it instead of learning to live with WinMe.
>
> This new SBC Yahoo! that once was (and still answers to) Prodigy.net has
> problems. Not the least of which is trying my patience. The silly dialer
> works fine if you don't mind manually telling it to connect everytime even
> when you click on an active desktop link or use "run" or click on a link
in
> the "Favorites" folder. I'm used to hearing my modem dial out as soon as
I
> click on something or type a link in "run." This having to tell the it
to
> connect is annoying. (So far three questions to various support locations
> have gone unanswered.)
>
> I liked Prodigy it was inexpensive, easy to navigate, and gave me choices
> about how much of its proprietary junk I had to use. This new creature
> started off by replacing my browser with their own version that opened a
new
> window every time you clicked a link, ignored POP-UP STOPPER, And
generally
> took over. Do I subscribe to AOL? (I told them several times in the
above
> mentioned semi-polite questions that I didn't and would not ever again
have
> AOL on any computer I owned by choice.)
>
> Any way the clincher today was when I finally got around to redoing PGP.
> Apparently PGP 6.5.8 and my system are in no way compatible. I got error
> messages like I hadn't seen since the Tandy 386SX33 bit the big one.
> (uninstalling seems to have fixed it.) The fun part was that silly dialer
> would think it was disconnected, when the modem was happily doing its
thing
> tying up my phone line.
>
> I know how to fix most of this problem. $$$$$$ I refuse to "invest" in
> Lotto tickets, Uncle Sam isn't handing out big raises for Veterans or SS
> recipients, I haven't invented an Improvement to BC's voting machine, and
> any rich relatives are healthier than I am. (I'm already working more the
> docs let me.)
>
> Thanks for getting this far. It's been a fun month and this was a topper.
> Skye was in the hospital for 3 days June 11- 14, Russ and I booted our
> roommate, I've been not just sick but very sick for the last 10 days. On
> the good side, Erin went back to work, Aaron's sister married the nicest
nut
> case (he'll fit right into the family,) Athena got her student teaching
> assignment in Pasco, A&A should know whether they got their house by this
> weekend (move in date is July 29) the lender has been dragging the
paperwork
> out.
>
> But I'm F.I.N.E.*
>
> --
> Later,
>
> `rita
> http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
> *frustrated, insecure, neurotic, emotional
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21427
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:24:07 -0700
Subject: Re: ranting and raving in Finley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Fixed the dial up problem (maybe.) Uninstalled the #$%^&* thing (Tech help
advice.) All I need to connect is a plain DUN connection once I have the
phone number and TCP/IP settings. You would have thought I 'd remember
doing that when Prodigy tried to foist it's version of AOL of on me. <doh!>
Haven't tried reinstalling PGP since. Note to anyone who has my keys the
only valid key is the one I made yesterday 07092002 that expires 07092005.
(I can't invalidate any of my former keys because I can't remember my pass
phrase.)
Dee's problem a while back sounded familiar, but I can't remember how I
solved it other than reinstalling all of WinMe. The Windows Update site is
very helpful as is CNet for finding (and fixing) problems with applications.
(but you knew that.)
--
Later,
`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3d2c5228.0@news.sff.net...
> 'rita,
>
> Good to hear _from_ you, bad to hear what is happening _to_ you. It
doesn't
> help that my problems are similar.
>
> Filksinger
>
> "Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:3d2bcaa9.0@news.sff.net...
> > Bill and the folks at the former Prodigy are definitely off my Christmas
> > list. If I could save money this HP poj would be running XP and be
maxed
> > out at 512 Mb RAM, but... I should of bought Win98 for this thing when
I
> > got it instead of learning to live with WinMe.
> >
> > This new SBC Yahoo! that once was (and still answers to) Prodigy.net has
> > problems. Not the least of which is trying my patience. The silly
dialer
> > works fine if you don't mind manually telling it to connect everytime
even
> > when you click on an active desktop link or use "run" or click on a link
> in
> > the "Favorites" folder. I'm used to hearing my modem dial out as soon
as
> I
> > click on something or type a link in "run." This having to tell the it
> to
> > connect is annoying. (So far three questions to various support
locations
> > have gone unanswered.)
> >
> > I liked Prodigy it was inexpensive, easy to navigate, and gave me
choices
> > about how much of its proprietary junk I had to use. This new creature
> > started off by replacing my browser with their own version that opened a
> new
> > window every time you clicked a link, ignored POP-UP STOPPER, And
> generally
> > took over. Do I subscribe to AOL? (I told them several times in the
> above
> > mentioned semi-polite questions that I didn't and would not ever again
> have
> > AOL on any computer I owned by choice.)
> >
> > Any way the clincher today was when I finally got around to redoing PGP.
> > Apparently PGP 6.5.8 and my system are in no way compatible. I got
error
> > messages like I hadn't seen since the Tandy 386SX33 bit the big one.
> > (uninstalling seems to have fixed it.) The fun part was that silly
dialer
> > would think it was disconnected, when the modem was happily doing its
> thing
> > tying up my phone line.
> >
> > I know how to fix most of this problem. $$$$$$ I refuse to "invest" in
> > Lotto tickets, Uncle Sam isn't handing out big raises for Veterans or SS
> > recipients, I haven't invented an Improvement to BC's voting machine,
and
> > any rich relatives are healthier than I am. (I'm already working more
the
> > docs let me.)
> >
> > Thanks for getting this far. It's been a fun month and this was a
topper.
> > Skye was in the hospital for 3 days June 11- 14, Russ and I booted our
> > roommate, I've been not just sick but very sick for the last 10 days.
On
> > the good side, Erin went back to work, Aaron's sister married the nicest
> nut
> > case (he'll fit right into the family,) Athena got her student teaching
> > assignment in Pasco, A&A should know whether they got their house by
this
> > weekend (move in date is July 29) the lender has been dragging the
> paperwork
> > out.
> >
> > But I'm F.I.N.E.*
> >
> > --
> > Later,
> >
> > `rita
> > http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
> > *frustrated, insecure, neurotic, emotional
> >
> >
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21428
From: David Silver
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 16:21:44 -0700
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb Houdek Rule replied to me:
>>I'm not as current as I once was in reading speculative fiction; but if
>>you like Heinlein, try Philip Wylie, John D. MacDonald, and Pat Frank.
>>All oldies but goodies. And some of their works are speculative fiction,
>>broadly or less-broadly defined.
>>
>
> The only Pat Frank I've read was "Alas Babylon" and I almost put it
> on the list.
If you find a copy, try his "Hold Back the Night," a novel of what
Evelyn Cyril called (after the typo about Inchon was corrected) "the
long walk back from the Chosin Reservoir" that his daddy made. Frank
also wrote a few other novels, one of which, title escapes me, was a
funny little satire about a man who survives a nuclear disaster the only
virile male alive. Ginny and Robert, Ginny tells me, enjoyed all of
them; and since she no longer is able to read for pleasure, one
Thanksgiving she sent me her own hardbound copy of Hold Back the Night
as a gift (to replace a very battered paperback) after she read a
Thanksgiving Day post I made about the 'forgotten war' and the frozen
turkey dinner the Marines left behind.
David
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21429
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 01:57:39 GMT
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 09:00:52 GMT, debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek
Rule) wrote:
> There's something about the non sequitor way of looking at things
>that puts me in mind of RAH when I read Hitchhikers. Stylistically,
>they write very differently--though if you read Douglas Adams "Last
>Chance to See" which is non-fiction travelogue I think it compares
>quite reasonably to "Tramp Royale". Adams writes a bit quicker sarcasm
>but they both have a sharp approach (also like PJ O'Roarke) that cuts
>down to the essence of things.
>
His last collection, _The Salmon of Doubt_ is out now. A bunch of
short articles that appeared in magazine articles, introductions, etc.
and a few chapters of the last Dirk Gently book that he never
finished.
A good read, but sad. Especially not knowing how the book ended, or
even got going, really.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21430
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 01:57:39 GMT
Subject: Re: ranting and raving in Finley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:24:07 -0700, "Lorrita Morgan"
<lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Fixed the dial up problem (maybe.) Uninstalled the #$%^&* thing (Tech help
>advice.) All I need to connect is a plain DUN connection once I have the
>phone number and TCP/IP settings. You would have thought I 'd remember
>doing that when Prodigy tried to foist it's version of AOL of on me. <doh!>
Glad to hear it.
So what's the two-sentence scoop on the Prodigy brand--they got bought
by Yahoo!, I gather? I'm rather glad I cut the cord when I did, my
heart would be breaking now otherwise.
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21431
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 19:55:08 -0700
Subject: Re: ranting and raving in Finley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Even though I get to keep my Prodigy ID and web page, I now dial into SBC
Yahoo! I haven't used much of Prodigy's special services since we (the HF)
moved to the net. Prodigy just offered unlimited access for $19.95 while
99% of other ISPs were limiting me to 100 hours for that price. (The month
the girls and I used 120+ plus hours on GTE.net was an eye opener.) I'm
locked into that $19.95 for a few more months, then I'll look around for
another solution.
I have added a "rant" page to my prefab web site. I'm promoting reading and
Project Gutenberg. I can't believe how many fantastic books are out there
for free!
--
Later,
`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"JT" <JT@REM0VE.sff.net> wrote in message
news:3d2ce5b6.44447515@news.sff.net...
> On Wed, 10 Jul 2002 12:24:07 -0700, "Lorrita Morgan"
> <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:
> >Fixed the dial up problem (maybe.) Uninstalled the #$%^&* thing (Tech
help
> >advice.) All I need to connect is a plain DUN connection once I have the
> >phone number and TCP/IP settings. You would have thought I 'd remember
> >doing that when Prodigy tried to foist it's version of AOL of on me.
<doh!>
>
> Glad to hear it.
>
> So what's the two-sentence scoop on the Prodigy brand--they got bought
> by Yahoo!, I gather? I'm rather glad I cut the cord when I did, my
> heart would be breaking now otherwise.
>
> JT
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21432
From: Michael P. Calligaro"
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:14:55 -0700
Subject: Re: Alaskan Trip
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Yeah, but why would anyone go there?
bytor
"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3d2bcb5b.0@news.sff.net...
> That would be the "other" Vancouver! <g, d,& hobble away very rapidly>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21433
From: Michael P. Calligaro"
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 20:17:14 -0700
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
There's also the fact that TCWWTW was billed as "The thinking man's
Hitchhiker's Guide" OWTTE.
bytor
"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
news:3d2bf58e.2971127@NEWS.SFF.NET...
> There's something about the non sequitor way of looking at things
> that puts me in mind of RAH when I read Hitchhikers.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21434
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Wed, 10 Jul 2002 23:13:09 -0700
Subject: Re: Alaskan Trip
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
John Jacob Astor would be disappointed. He liked it. Ft. Vancouver made
him a bunch of money.
--
Later,
`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"Michael P. Calligaro" <bytor@mystikeep.com> wrote in message
news:3d2cf826.0@news.sff.net...
> Yeah, but why would anyone go there?
>
> bytor
>
> "Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:3d2bcb5b.0@news.sff.net...
> > That would be the "other" Vancouver! <g, d,& hobble away very rapidly>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21435
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 02:47:44 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
news:3d2df780.3468788@NEWS.SFF.NET...
>
> >John Varley; Steel Beach, The Golden Globe
>
> Steel Beach... I was trying to think of the name of that one. An
> RAH-ish flavor but I found no inclination to reread it, which seemed
> to me the test. Have you?
>
>
Yep, I've re-read both books. That is the test, after all. I find myself
picking up an old friend and getting re-acquainted every now and then. Or I
read something like "The Martian Named Smith" and start looking up certain
passages.
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21436
From: David Silver
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:52:54 -0700
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I wrote:
> . . . Ginny and Robert, Ginny tells me, enjoyed all of
> them; and since she no longer is able to read for pleasure, one
> Thanksgiving she sent me her own hardbound copy of Hold Back the Night
> as a gift (to replace a very battered paperback) after she read a
> Thanksgiving Day post I made about the 'forgotten war' and the frozen
> turkey dinner the Marines left behind.
Sometimes I get a case of the quaints; and after posting the above I had
to reread Ginny's copy of Hold Back the Night. And when I finished it, I
had to go look up the old post about the Thanksgiving of 1950 to see if
it really merited Ginny sending me her copy. I don't believe I posted it
here, so, if I err, forgive me, but here it is:
This is the post that resulted in Virginia Heinlein mailing me her copy
of Pat Frank's Hold Back the Night, originally made on alt.fan.heinlein
on 11-24-1999.
Happy Thanksgiving -- 49 years ago.
In Robert Heinlein's Glory Road, E.C. ("Oscar") Gordon tells us in the
first few pages of the opening chapter he's essentially an orphan
because his father afterwards died of wounds received during "that long
walk back from the Chosin* Reservoir."
Next year will mark the fiftieth anniversary of the "Forgotten War" or
"UnWar1" as Heinlein's character calls the Korean War.
Perhaps a moment to remember how that American Thanksgiving Holiday was
celebrated by some rather old men (and some men who never grew to be
rather old) forty-nine yeas ago is warranted.
Korea was the first war fought under the banner of the United Nations to
preserve the independence of a people. On June 25, 1950, the Communist
government of North Korea invaded the Republic which had been
established in the south after Korea had been freed from Japan after
World War II. Allies of 17 nations fought -- and won -- to preserve the
freedom of the Republic of Korea. During the so-called "Forgotten War,"
54,246 Americans were killed. Total allied losses were 297,389 dead.
The Chosin Reservoir (today called the "Changjin") is located in
mountainous terrain that separates the middle of the northern portion of
the Korean penninsula. By Thanksgiving 1950 Allied forces had driven
north following MacArthur's successful landing at Inchon earlier and
driven what remained of the North Korean Army almost across the Yalu
River, the border separating Korea from Communist China's Manchurian
province. MacArthur was forbidden to attack across the Yalu and, since
there was virtually no where else to drive them, he allowed his troops
to slow to consolidate their outrun supply lines, having taken almost
all of Korea from the communists. A few 'volunteers' from China's armies
had been detected among North Korea's communist forces but, in yet one
more intelligence failure, it was calculated that China would not enter
the war.
Frozen turkeys were delivered to the troops on the line to celebrate
Thanksgiving, and MacArthur confidentally predicted the "troops would be
home for Christmas."
Meanwhile, China massed its forces north of the Yalu. Chosin pitted
about 15,000 allied ground troops, mostly the 1st Marine Division and
Regimental Combat Teams from the Army's 7th Infantry Division, but also
including elements of the South Korean (ROK) Army, British Marine
Commandos and Royal Australian Air Force members, against 120,000
Chinese infantrymen concealed in the mountains around the valley town of
Yudam-ni. There were nearly 500,000 North Korean troops, mainly Chinese
"volunteers," in ten Chinese Army Divisions, immediately across the Yalu
River.
Thanksgiving fell on Thursday, November 23, that year. The Marines who
were advanced the furthest north, those dug in up around the reservoir
got their airdrop of Turkeys a little late; and (as described in Pat
Frank's _Hold Back the Night_), their cooks planned to serve them their
dinner on Monday, November 27, after the turkeys which took three days
to thaw had unfrozen. On November 27th, 1950, in the early A.M., the
attack was made across the ice at the reservoir. The turkeys were never
unfrozen and abandoned. The ten Chinese Divisions were ordered to
annihilate the 1st Marine Division and allies to the last man. The
15,000 allies suffered 12,000 casualties, including more than 3,000
killed and 6,000 wounded, plus thousands of severe frostbite cases from
the -30 degree temperatures.
They emerged from the ordeal with a Presidential Unit Citation for,
"decisively defeating seven enemy divisions together with elements of
three others." The Chinese suffered an estimated 37,500 casualties,
including 25,000 killed and 12,500 wounded.
Historians have termed Chosin the most savage battle of modern warfare.
They compare it to Tarawa, the bloodiest battle of World War II in terms
of the ratio of casualties to Americans engaged, also 15,000. Some 1,000
were killed and 2,300 wounded in that fight. Of the Tawara's 5,000
defenders, 4,500 died.
President Reagan cited Chosin as among the epics of military history in
his first Inaugural Address. Time Magazine described it as,
"...unparalleled in U. S. military history ... an epic of great
suffering and great valor." The press has likened it to the Alamo or
Custer's Last Stand because of the seemingly hopeless odds. A total of
17 Medals of Honor and 70 Navy Crosses were awarded for the campaign,
the most ever for a single battle in U. S. military history.
There was a small Christmas miracle to compensate for loss of the frozen
turkeys. The Chosin fighters, by decimating and checkmating the Chinese
forces in the mountains, enabled the evacuation of 100,000 North Korean
civilians, (men, women and children) by sea, the last on Christmas Eve.
The U. S. Government formally described the humanitarian feat as "the
greatest rescue operation in history of mankind." Never in recorded
history have combatants rescued so many enemy civilians in the midst of
battle. Those refugees who "voted their feet against communism" are now
living free, many in the United States.
A personal note: in November 1950 I was eight years old, living in
Cleveland, Ohio. My mother's aunt and uncle, Earl and Elizabeth Hoyt,
had a small twenty acre plot of land east of Cleveland in Gates Mills,
Ohio, on which Earl bred and raised cocker spaniels for field and show.
This was farmland, only recently subdivided, then. Today it's a very
posh suburb of Cleveland. Down the road two mailboxes lived a family
named Sears. The previous three years my sister and I had spent
vacations with Bess and Earl. Albert Sears was a fifteen year old boy
when we first met him; and, as Earl worked nights at the G.E. plant down
the road and needed his sleep during the day, Bess asked Mrs. Sears if
Albert could keep an eye on us during the summers. He did. He had a
beautiful German Shepard named "Pal" with whom he let us play, took us
berry picking, on hikes, to apple and pear orchards to picnic, and
showed us his favorite spots. He was a kind, responsible kid, and the
first older boy with whom I had ever experienced an enjoyable
relationship. He told me about the Boy Scouts and encouraged my mother
to think about letting me join the Cubs that year. He helped teach me
how to take care of a puppy Earl gave me on my sixth birthday. Albert
graduated high school in June 1950. A few days later, at night on the
highway in front of his home, a driver ran over Pal. A week or so later,
President Truman called for volunteers. Albert enlisted in the Marine Corps.
The winter of 1950 was an exceptionally heavy one in northern Ohio. We
visited Aunt Bess and Uncle Earl at the beginning of the school vacation
over Christmas and New Years. We got snowed in with drifts eight and ten
feet high. Bess and Earl had a little 10 inch television. It was the
only TV in that neighborhood along the highway. That Christmas vacation,
every evening around five, Mrs. Sears tramped her way over to watch the
television. The news reports were special that year. They showed reels
and reels of movie footage of Marines and Army soldiers, refugees and
others, walking into a place called Hungnam harbor. Mrs. Sears would sit
quietly and closely peer at the TV at the faces of the men shown under
the parka hoods and helmets, every evening. As it got closer and closer
to the New Year, Mrs. Sears began to cry a lot while she watched. Bess
would give her a glass with ice cubes and something mixed with soda pop
to drink, but she'd continue crying. Sometimes Bess would tell Earl to
take us out of the room.
Pfc. Albert Sears, USMCR, has been missing in action (presumed dead) for
forty-nine years.
Every Thanksgiving I think about him. And every Thanksgiving since ten
years after his death, I've drunk a toast of something mixed in ice with
soda pop to his memory. And said a prayer for his soul.
Happy Thanksgiving, Albert. God Bless you.
David
_____
*In one of the few printing gaffes in a Heinlein book, the reservoir was
initially called "Inchon" in the first few editions. Inchon, of course,
is the harbor on the west coast of Korea near Seoul, the capital, where
MacArthur had landed a flanking amphibious assault that bottled up and
virtually destroyed the North Korean Army months earlier. The mistake
was corrected in subsequent editions.
--
David M. Silver
AGplusone@aol.com
"I expect your names to shine!"
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21437
From: Filksinger"
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 08:02:30 -0700
Subject: Food for Conspiracy Theorists
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
This ought to be of interest to music sharing fans, especially those who are
conspiracy theorists, and in particular those who believe Michael Jackson
when he says that the head of Sony is evil.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/internet/07/10/obit.kan.ap/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21438
From: Filksinger"
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 13:26:06 -0700
Subject: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
OK, normally I avoid posting something like this, even here, but someone
recently pointed out to me an interesting feature of the Federal Marriage
Amendment now being pushed by members of Congress.
"Federal Marriage Amendment
Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and a
woman.
Neither this constitution or the constitution of any state, nor state or
federal law, shall be construed to require that marital status or the legal
incidents thereof be conferred upon unmarried couples or groups."
Now, I'm not trying to start a debate about gay marriages, or anything
similar. Instead, I want you to take a good look at this proposed Amendment.
Suppose a man and his girlfriend are living together, and, by state law, his
insurance must insure her as if she were his wife. This amendment would
prevent this, because this is a "legal incident" of marriage.
As I read this, _any_ Federal, state, or local law giving _any_ couple or
group of people _any_ legal benefit normally granted to married people in
particular would become unconstitutional. This could be, depending upon
jurisdiction, "couples" (same sex or different), relatives, roommates, or
clergy. This is not an attempt to prevent gay marriages (as its proponents
claim), it is, in fact, an attack aimed at all pairings that are not
marriages (and incidentally, anybody caught in the crossfire).
Any comments? Agree? Disagree?
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21439
From: Bill Dauphin
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 21:51:00 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On 7/10/02 5:00 AM, in article 3d2df780.3468788@NEWS.SFF.NET, "Deb Houdek
Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote:
> Steel Beach... I was trying to think of the name of that one. An
> RAH-ish flavor but I found no inclination to reread it, which seemed
> to me the test. Have you?
I certainly have (not that you were asking *me* <g>). I also loved _The
Golden Globe_, which put me very much in mind of _Double Star_. My main beef
w/Varley is that it's so *loooong* between new books.
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21440
From: Bill Dauphin
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 22:08:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On 7/11/02 4:26 PM, in article 3d2de9fb.0@news.sff.net, "Filksinger"
<filksinger@earthlink.net> wrote:
> OK, normally I avoid posting something like this, even here, but someone
> recently pointed out to me an interesting feature of the Federal Marriage
> Amendment now being pushed by members of Congress.
>
> "Federal Marriage Amendment <quotation and comments snipped>
> Any comments? Agree? Disagree?
IMHO this is just another salvo in the ongoing campaign by conservatives
(you know, the folks who oppose intrusive government <g>) to effectively ban
anything other than what George Carlin once called "good old-fashioned
man-on-top get-it-over-with-quick sex."
Any attempt to ban gay marriages will necessarily have this sort of
collateral damage... But the advocates of the ban won't care, since they no
doubt evaluate all those other nontraditional relationships as just as (or
at least *almost as*) "immoral" as gay marriage.
You all know my solution: Since I don't believe the sexual, spiritual, or
emotional aspects of personal relationships are any of the public's
business, but the civil/business aspects of forming self-sustaining
households *are* the public's business, I think we should replace civil
marriage with domestic partnerships that would address the latter while
making no reference to the former. People would, of course, be free to make
whatever promises they chose to each other regarding sex, love, exclusivity,
permanence, etc... It's just that the government would no longer be a party
to those promises.
YMMV, of course. 8^)
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21441
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:01:28 -0700
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
While I agree that marriage is between one man and one woman bound by God,
this is NOT in line with my beliefs of how that should be ~enforced~
[disseminated, proselytized, held up as the standard.] <help me out folks,
what is the word/phrase I'm seeking?>
At times when I see these things I think it's just a way to get out of
covering a housemate on health insurance. When Erin was born my youngest
brother (then 20) lived with us, we couldn't get him covered on our
policies. If I lived with my children, their policies would make no
provision for me.
Other times, I think it's modern Pharisees who practice religion and rules,
but have no relationship. These are the so-called Christians who are more
interested quoting Exodus 20 than 1Corinthians 13. Jesus covers them nicely
in Matthew 7, especially verses 21-23. (link to online Bible
http://bible.crosswalk.com/)
I agree with Bill the civil authority should stay out of this. While I
believe that unions other than marriage are sin, it is not my job to force
my version of moral behavior on nonbelievers. I can speak calmly and
rationally against it. I can pray. BUT, it is NOT my problem.
--
Later,
`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3d2de9fb.0@news.sff.net...
> OK, normally I avoid posting something like this, even here, but someone
> recently pointed out to me an interesting feature of the Federal Marriage
> Amendment now being pushed by members of Congress.
>
> "Federal Marriage Amendment
> Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and
a
> woman.
>
> Neither this constitution or the constitution of any state, nor state or
> federal law, shall be construed to require that marital status or the
legal
> incidents thereof be conferred upon unmarried couples or groups."
>
> Now, I'm not trying to start a debate about gay marriages, or anything
> similar. Instead, I want you to take a good look at this proposed
Amendment.
>
> Suppose a man and his girlfriend are living together, and, by state law,
his
> insurance must insure her as if she were his wife. This amendment would
> prevent this, because this is a "legal incident" of marriage.
>
> As I read this, _any_ Federal, state, or local law giving _any_ couple or
> group of people _any_ legal benefit normally granted to married people in
> particular would become unconstitutional. This could be, depending upon
> jurisdiction, "couples" (same sex or different), relatives, roommates, or
> clergy. This is not an attempt to prevent gay marriages (as its proponents
> claim), it is, in fact, an attack aimed at all pairings that are not
> marriages (and incidentally, anybody caught in the crossfire).
>
> Any comments? Agree? Disagree?
>
> --
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21442
From: Michael P. Calligaro"
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 20:36:30 -0700
Subject: Re: Food for Conspiracy Theorists
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
While it wouldn't take very much at all to convince me that the head of Sony
is evil, it would take an extreme amount of evidence to convice me that the
head of Sony is stupid. Yes, the memory stick is pretty damning, but that's
one glaring exception to the rule of Sony doing a lot of very smart things.
Shooting a kid who wrote some software you don't like, when that software is
already out and has no chance of going away, just isn't the kind of thing a
Sony exec would go for. It's a waste of time, and Sony doesn't waste
anything (if you ignore memory sticks, of course).
bytor
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3d2dd222.0@news.sff.net...
> This ought to be of interest to music sharing fans, especially those who
are
> conspiracy theorists, and in particular those who believe Michael Jackson
> when he says that the head of Sony is evil.
>
> http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/internet/07/10/obit.kan.ap/index.html
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21443
From: Dee"
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:04:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3d2e4697.0@news.sff.net...
> While I agree that marriage is between one man and one woman bound by God,
> this is NOT in line with my beliefs of how that should be ~enforced~
> [disseminated, proselytized, held up as the standard.] <help me out
folks,
> what is the word/phrase I'm seeking?>
<snip>
> I agree with Bill the civil authority should stay out of this. While I
> believe that unions other than marriage are sin, it is not my job to force
> my version of moral behavior on nonbelievers. I can speak calmly and
> rationally against it. I can pray. BUT, it is NOT my problem.
'Rita--
That's why I agree with Bill on this one--if we drop the loaded
terminology of "marriage," then it quits being your moral problem what I do.
Or mine what you do. If we looked on it as contractual families, we weould
maybe see that it is a question of assuming mutual obligations and sharing
responsibilities. Sex, or the lack thereof, is no one's business.
For instance, what if my best friend and I both had children and were
both widowed. We might decide to create a household and raise our children
together, for our mutual benefit and teh welfare of teh children. What
would our sex-life have to do with that? Why should we not be able to make
the same provisions for our family as the traditional husband, wife and 2.8
children family? Insurance, taxes, etc. The business of a family goes on,
with or without a marriage.
But as long as we only think in terms of marriage, we will be emoting
over other people's morality instead of thinking about realistic choices.
Of course, if there were not so many people who think that "anything not
prohibited is encouraged," this wouldn't push so many hot buttons, either.
It seems to me that real Christians persuade, through example, of the
rightness of their beliefs, rather than trying to punish what offends their
sensibilities.
--Dee
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21444
From: Dee"
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:23:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Oops. My previous post looks like I am disputing with you, 'rita, and I am
not, I am agreeing. After I hit send, I realized that the tone just came
out wrong. So, can you listen to what I meant, instrad of what I said?
<weak g>
--Dee
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21445
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 02:00:17 -0400
Subject: Knave is Gone!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
And I'd just discovered him! Pasting from sff.discuss.obituaries:
From Bud Webster -
There was a small paid announcement in the New York Times this morning
saying
that Lawrence Mark Janifer had died on Sunday, age 69.
He was an editor with the Scott Meredith Literary Agency in the '50s, when
he became a free-lancer. His first sf story was "Expatriate" in the 11/53
COSMOS (under his birth name, Larry Mark Harris), although he'd published
several pseudonymous "true war" stories the previous year. During this
period, he was also a member of the Hydra Club.
He continued to use his birth name until 1963, when he changed it to
Janifer,
his Polish grandfather's name. In the meantime, he collaborated with
Randall
Garrett on a number of books and stories, beginning with _Pagan Passions_,
a Galaxy SF Novel published by Beacon Books. Other collabs with Garrett
were published under the name Mark Phillips, including _Brain Twister_,
_The Impossibles_, and _Supermind_ (all Pyramid, 1962-3).
With S. J. Treibich, he wrote three connected novellas, each published as
half of an Ace Double: _Target: Terra_ (H-91, 1968), _The High Hex_ (72400,
1969) and _The Wagered World_ (81680, 1969). In 1977, he published the
first of the Knave books, _Survivor_ (Ace); there was a second novel and
a collection in the next decade.
Added by Rich Horton -
Actually, he has had some more Knave books published by Wildside in
the past couple of years. _The Counterfeit Heinlein_ last year, and
_Alienist_ either late last year or early this year. I understand one
more is in the pipeline. These may well be trunk novels, to be sure,
but they are books, being published just now. I believe there may be
one more in the Wildside pipeline.
Gosh darn, we've lost another one. Janifer wasn't one of the greats,
but he was a solid pro. Gerald Knave was an interesting character.
Some of his mid-60s novels are rather striking in their ambition,
notably the surreal _A Piece of Martin Cann_ (1968), and _You Sane
Men_ (aka _Bloodworld) (1965), the latter having for its protagonist a
sexual sadist from a world entirely inhabited by such. The
collaborations with Treibich are light but enjoyable -- the same can
be said of the "Mark Phillips" books (which were serialized in
Astounding/Analog from 1959 through 1961).
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21446
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 03:09:00 -0700
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Dee,
I think we said/meant the same thing.
When I hear about these movements to regulate behavior and/or further narrow
the definition of "family" sitcoms like "Kate and Allie," "My Two Dads" and
"Full House" spring to mind. I think all of them covered some of the points
raised.
--
Later,
`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org> wrote in message
news:3d2e5538.0@news.sff.net...
>
> "Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:3d2e4697.0@news.sff.net...
> > While I agree that marriage is between one man and one woman bound by
God,
> > this is NOT in line with my beliefs of how that should be ~enforced~
> > [disseminated, proselytized, held up as the standard.] <help me out
> folks,
> > what is the word/phrase I'm seeking?>
> <snip>
> > I agree with Bill the civil authority should stay out of this. While I
> > believe that unions other than marriage are sin, it is not my job to
force
> > my version of moral behavior on nonbelievers. I can speak calmly and
> > rationally against it. I can pray. BUT, it is NOT my problem.
>
> 'Rita--
> That's why I agree with Bill on this one--if we drop the loaded
> terminology of "marriage," then it quits being your moral problem what I
do.
> Or mine what you do. If we looked on it as contractual families, we
weould
> maybe see that it is a question of assuming mutual obligations and sharing
> responsibilities. Sex, or the lack thereof, is no one's business.
> For instance, what if my best friend and I both had children and were
> both widowed. We might decide to create a household and raise our
children
> together, for our mutual benefit and teh welfare of teh children. What
> would our sex-life have to do with that? Why should we not be able to
make
> the same provisions for our family as the traditional husband, wife and
2.8
> children family? Insurance, taxes, etc. The business of a family goes
on,
> with or without a marriage.
> But as long as we only think in terms of marriage, we will be emoting
> over other people's morality instead of thinking about realistic choices.
> Of course, if there were not so many people who think that "anything
not
> prohibited is encouraged," this wouldn't push so many hot buttons,
either.
> It seems to me that real Christians persuade, through example, of the
> rightness of their beliefs, rather than trying to punish what offends
their
> sensibilities.
>
> --Dee
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21447
From: Dee"
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 06:29:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3d2eaaca.0@news.sff.net...
> Dee,
> I think we said/meant the same thing.
Yeah, I think so too.
> When I hear about these movements to regulate behavior and/or further
narrow
> the definition of "family" sitcoms like "Kate and Allie," "My Two Dads"
and
> "Full House" spring to mind. I think all of them covered some of the
points
> raised.
The only one of those I ever watched was "Kate & Allie." But come to
think of it, if a new sit-com with the title "My Two Dads" were announced
today, how many howls of outrage would we hear, based on the _assumption_
that it was about a gay couple with children?
--Dee
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21448
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 06:53:07 -0700
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
That was the assumption then. I didn't watch it much. I'm not sure if
that's the show Dick Butkus played the gay bartender on or not. I think it
was. (trivial mind at work)
I can't remember the name of the actress who played the judge, but she made
a career out of playing acerbic, wise women.
--
Later,
`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org> wrote in message
news:3d2ebeb9.0@news.sff.net...
>
> "Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:3d2eaaca.0@news.sff.net...
> > Dee,
> > I think we said/meant the same thing.
>
> Yeah, I think so too.
>
> > When I hear about these movements to regulate behavior and/or further
> narrow
> > the definition of "family" sitcoms like "Kate and Allie," "My Two Dads"
> and
> > "Full House" spring to mind. I think all of them covered some of the
> points
> > raised.
>
> The only one of those I ever watched was "Kate & Allie." But come to
> think of it, if a new sit-com with the title "My Two Dads" were announced
> today, how many howls of outrage would we hear, based on the _assumption_
> that it was about a gay couple with children?
>
> --Dee
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21449
From: hf_jai@prodigy.net (Jai Johnson-Pickett)
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:58:49 GMT
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 10:52:54 -0700, David Silver
<ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote:
>This is the post that resulted in Virginia Heinlein mailing me her copy
>of Pat Frank's Hold Back the Night, originally made on alt.fan.heinlein
>on 11-24-1999.
>
>Happy Thanksgiving -- 49 years ago.
Thanks for posting that, David.
More people should remember.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21450
From: Filksinger"
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 11:33:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Food for Conspiracy Theorists
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I absolutely agree. I just got a kick out of imagining what some of the more
lunatic "free music" fans would say.
Filksinger
"Michael P. Calligaro" <bytor@mystikeep.com> wrote in message
news:3d2e4eb3.0@news.sff.net...
> While it wouldn't take very much at all to convince me that the head of
Sony
> is evil, it would take an extreme amount of evidence to convice me that
the
> head of Sony is stupid. Yes, the memory stick is pretty damning, but
that's
> one glaring exception to the rule of Sony doing a lot of very smart
things.
>
> Shooting a kid who wrote some software you don't like, when that software
is
> already out and has no chance of going away, just isn't the kind of thing
a
> Sony exec would go for. It's a waste of time, and Sony doesn't waste
> anything (if you ignore memory sticks, of course).
>
> bytor
>
> "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:3d2dd222.0@news.sff.net...
> > This ought to be of interest to music sharing fans, especially those who
> are
> > conspiracy theorists, and in particular those who believe Michael
Jackson
> > when he says that the head of Sony is evil.
> >
> > http://www.cnn.com/2002/TECH/internet/07/10/obit.kan.ap/index.html
> >
> >
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21451
From: Filksinger"
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 13:09:51 -0700
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3d2e4697.0@news.sff.net...
<snip>
> Other times, I think it's modern Pharisees who practice religion and
rules,
> but have no relationship. These are the so-called Christians who are more
> interested quoting Exodus 20 than 1Corinthians 13. Jesus covers them
nicely
> in Matthew 7, especially verses 21-23. (link to online Bible
> http://bible.crosswalk.com/)
Thanks for the quotation (and the link). I keep forgetting to look that
section up. I think it is one of the sections most popular with
_non-Christians_, actually.:) Even Leslie Fish, avowed "pagan agnostic",
merged that section, Mary Magdalene, and John 8:11 to create a song, with
her own reasonably respectful (for her) spin on it, of course.
As an aside, have you ever noticed how many people, Christian scholars
included, assume that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, or at least the same
woman as in Luke 7:36-50?
--
Filksinger
AKA David Nasset, Sr.
Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21452
From: Eli Hestermann
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:19:08 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
That was a beautiful post, David. If we ever meet, it will earn you a
drink in addition to the book.
Thank you.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@tmlp.com
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21453
From: Eli Hestermann
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:25:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Filksinger wrote:
> As an aside, have you ever noticed how many people, Christian scholars
> included, assume that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, or at least the same
> woman as in Luke 7:36-50?
I don't know of any Christian scholars that do it, but many do assume that any
reference to Mary that isn't obviously Jesus' mother or the sister of Martha and
Lazarus must be Mary Magdalene.
But Christians are relatively boring in these matters. The Jews have all the
juicy extra-Biblical traditions.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@tmlp.com
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21454
From: Eli Hestermann
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:28:31 -0400
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I'm with you, rita. I've often said here that I don't have much use for
people who try to enforce their religion through law.
Just a couple weeks ago in Bible study, a man was wishing that the U.S.
public were more "moral" - this while we were studying the section of II
Corinthians where Paul says the law kills, while the Spirit gives life!
I tried to be gentle while laying into him. [g]
--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@tmlp.com
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21455
From: noone"
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:14:19 -0400
Subject: Re: Knave is Gone!
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
thank you for posting this though i'm very sorry to hear of it, i only met
larry once in person but enjoyed that meeting. sharing a joke about how the
".45 magnum" his knave character favoured didn't exist when he first wrote
the stories but winchester vindicated him by later putting it on the market.
larry was not perhaps one of the "big name" writers but he was a good writer
and a good man.
"gunner"
"William J. Keaton" <wjake@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3d2e6fd2.0@news.sff.net...
> And I'd just discovered him! Pasting from sff.discuss.obituaries:
>
> From Bud Webster -
> There was a small paid announcement in the New York Times this morning
> saying
> that Lawrence Mark Janifer had died on Sunday, age 69.
>
> He was an editor with the Scott Meredith Literary Agency in the '50s, when
> he became a free-lancer. His first sf story was "Expatriate" in the 11/53
> COSMOS (under his birth name, Larry Mark Harris), although he'd published
> several pseudonymous "true war" stories the previous year. During this
> period, he was also a member of the Hydra Club.
>
> He continued to use his birth name until 1963, when he changed it to
> Janifer,
> his Polish grandfather's name. In the meantime, he collaborated with
> Randall
> Garrett on a number of books and stories, beginning with _Pagan Passions_,
> a Galaxy SF Novel published by Beacon Books. Other collabs with Garrett
> were published under the name Mark Phillips, including _Brain Twister_,
> _The Impossibles_, and _Supermind_ (all Pyramid, 1962-3).
>
> With S. J. Treibich, he wrote three connected novellas, each published as
> half of an Ace Double: _Target: Terra_ (H-91, 1968), _The High Hex_
(72400,
> 1969) and _The Wagered World_ (81680, 1969). In 1977, he published the
> first of the Knave books, _Survivor_ (Ace); there was a second novel and
> a collection in the next decade.
>
> Added by Rich Horton -
>
> Actually, he has had some more Knave books published by Wildside in
> the past couple of years. _The Counterfeit Heinlein_ last year, and
> _Alienist_ either late last year or early this year. I understand one
> more is in the pipeline. These may well be trunk novels, to be sure,
> but they are books, being published just now. I believe there may be
> one more in the Wildside pipeline.
>
> Gosh darn, we've lost another one. Janifer wasn't one of the greats,
> but he was a solid pro. Gerald Knave was an interesting character.
> Some of his mid-60s novels are rather striking in their ambition,
> notably the surreal _A Piece of Martin Cann_ (1968), and _You Sane
> Men_ (aka _Bloodworld) (1965), the latter having for its protagonist a
> sexual sadist from a world entirely inhabited by such. The
> collaborations with Treibich are light but enjoyable -- the same can
> be said of the "Mark Phillips" books (which were serialized in
> Astounding/Analog from 1959 through 1961).
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21456
From: noone"
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:19:32 -0400
Subject: Re: ranting and raving in Finley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
actually i've found a use for those a.o.l. discs i keep getting in the mail,
they make excellent pistol targets.
"gunner"
----------------
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3d2c5228.0@news.sff.net...
> 'rita,
>
> Good to hear _from_ you, bad to hear what is happening _to_ you. It
doesn't
> help that my problems are similar.
>
> Filksinger
>
> "Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> news:3d2bcaa9.0@news.sff.net...
> > Bill and the folks at the former Prodigy are definitely off my Christmas
> > list. If I could save money this HP poj would be running XP and be
maxed
> > out at 512 Mb RAM, but... I should of bought Win98 for this thing when
I
> > got it instead of learning to live with WinMe.
> >
> > This new SBC Yahoo! that once was (and still answers to) Prodigy.net has
> > problems. Not the least of which is trying my patience. The silly
dialer
> > works fine if you don't mind manually telling it to connect everytime
even
> > when you click on an active desktop link or use "run" or click on a link
> in
> > the "Favorites" folder. I'm used to hearing my modem dial out as soon
as
> I
> > click on something or type a link in "run." This having to tell the it
> to
> > connect is annoying. (So far three questions to various support
locations
> > have gone unanswered.)
> >
> > I liked Prodigy it was inexpensive, easy to navigate, and gave me
choices
> > about how much of its proprietary junk I had to use. This new creature
> > started off by replacing my browser with their own version that opened a
> new
> > window every time you clicked a link, ignored POP-UP STOPPER, And
> generally
> > took over. Do I subscribe to AOL? (I told them several times in the
> above
> > mentioned semi-polite questions that I didn't and would not ever again
> have
> > AOL on any computer I owned by choice.)
> >
> > Any way the clincher today was when I finally got around to redoing PGP.
> > Apparently PGP 6.5.8 and my system are in no way compatible. I got
error
> > messages like I hadn't seen since the Tandy 386SX33 bit the big one.
> > (uninstalling seems to have fixed it.) The fun part was that silly
dialer
> > would think it was disconnected, when the modem was happily doing its
> thing
> > tying up my phone line.
> >
> > I know how to fix most of this problem. $$$$$$ I refuse to "invest" in
> > Lotto tickets, Uncle Sam isn't handing out big raises for Veterans or SS
> > recipients, I haven't invented an Improvement to BC's voting machine,
and
> > any rich relatives are healthier than I am. (I'm already working more
the
> > docs let me.)
> >
> > Thanks for getting this far. It's been a fun month and this was a
topper.
> > Skye was in the hospital for 3 days June 11- 14, Russ and I booted our
> > roommate, I've been not just sick but very sick for the last 10 days.
On
> > the good side, Erin went back to work, Aaron's sister married the nicest
> nut
> > case (he'll fit right into the family,) Athena got her student teaching
> > assignment in Pasco, A&A should know whether they got their house by
this
> > weekend (move in date is July 29) the lender has been dragging the
> paperwork
> > out.
> >
> > But I'm F.I.N.E.*
> >
> > --
> > Later,
> >
> > `rita
> > http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
> > *frustrated, insecure, neurotic, emotional
> >
> >
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21457
From: noone"
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:59:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
this looks to me, like the former "equal rights amendment", like a bad idea
whose time has not and should not come. it would not affect me, i'm
heterosexual and married, but i have a number of friends involved in various
forms of "polyamory" including some "group marriages" as well as knowing
"unmarried" couples of long duration whose relationships are as stable, if
not more so, as any "lawful marriage" and this proposed amendment would most
certainly affect them adversely. even if that were not the case i do not
believe it is the proper business of government to specify what "marriage"
is or is not unless perhaps as a form of contract between persons but if so
the form and terms of such contract should be between the parties concerned.
not defined and limited by official fiat as this amendment proposes.
thankfully the amendment process was deliberately made long and difficult so
there will be time to muster opposition and i believe there will be serious
opposition from many surprising corners.
"gunner"
------------------
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3d2de9fb.0@news.sff.net...
> OK, normally I avoid posting something like this, even here, but someone
> recently pointed out to me an interesting feature of the Federal Marriage
> Amendment now being pushed by members of Congress.
>
> "Federal Marriage Amendment
> Marriage in the United States shall consist only of the union of a man and
a
> woman.
>
> Neither this constitution or the constitution of any state, nor state or
> federal law, shall be construed to require that marital status or the
legal
> incidents thereof be conferred upon unmarried couples or groups."
>
> Now, I'm not trying to start a debate about gay marriages, or anything
> similar. Instead, I want you to take a good look at this proposed
Amendment.
>
> Suppose a man and his girlfriend are living together, and, by state law,
his
> insurance must insure her as if she were his wife. This amendment would
> prevent this, because this is a "legal incident" of marriage.
>
> As I read this, _any_ Federal, state, or local law giving _any_ couple or
> group of people _any_ legal benefit normally granted to married people in
> particular would become unconstitutional. This could be, depending upon
> jurisdiction, "couples" (same sex or different), relatives, roommates, or
> clergy. This is not an attempt to prevent gay marriages (as its proponents
> claim), it is, in fact, an attack aimed at all pairings that are not
> marriages (and incidentally, anybody caught in the crossfire).
>
> Any comments? Agree? Disagree?
>
> --
> Filksinger
> AKA David Nasset, Sr.
> Geek Prophet to the Technologically Declined
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21458
From: noone"
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 22:18:21 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
thank you for that david, i enlisted just after the korean war, in 1955,
most of my n.c.o.s were veterans of the korean war and some of both korea
and ww2 and the first marines ended up being my outfit. it's good to know
the guys who were at "frozen chosin" and later taught me my trade are not
forgotten.
"gunner"
l/cpl usmc 1955/59
----------------------
"David Silver" <ag.plusone@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:3D2DC5F6.3000504@verizon.net...
> I wrote:
>
>
> > . . . Ginny and Robert, Ginny tells me, enjoyed all of
> > them; and since she no longer is able to read for pleasure, one
> > Thanksgiving she sent me her own hardbound copy of Hold Back the Night
> > as a gift (to replace a very battered paperback) after she read a
> > Thanksgiving Day post I made about the 'forgotten war' and the frozen
> > turkey dinner the Marines left behind.
>
>
> Sometimes I get a case of the quaints; and after posting the above I had
> to reread Ginny's copy of Hold Back the Night. And when I finished it, I
> had to go look up the old post about the Thanksgiving of 1950 to see if
> it really merited Ginny sending me her copy. I don't believe I posted it
> here, so, if I err, forgive me, but here it is:
>
>
> This is the post that resulted in Virginia Heinlein mailing me her copy
> of Pat Frank's Hold Back the Night, originally made on alt.fan.heinlein
> on 11-24-1999.
>
> Happy Thanksgiving -- 49 years ago.
>
> In Robert Heinlein's Glory Road, E.C. ("Oscar") Gordon tells us in the
> first few pages of the opening chapter he's essentially an orphan
> because his father afterwards died of wounds received during "that long
> walk back from the Chosin* Reservoir."
>
> Next year will mark the fiftieth anniversary of the "Forgotten War" or
> "UnWar1" as Heinlein's character calls the Korean War.
>
> Perhaps a moment to remember how that American Thanksgiving Holiday was
> celebrated by some rather old men (and some men who never grew to be
> rather old) forty-nine yeas ago is warranted.
>
> Korea was the first war fought under the banner of the United Nations to
> preserve the independence of a people. On June 25, 1950, the Communist
> government of North Korea invaded the Republic which had been
> established in the south after Korea had been freed from Japan after
> World War II. Allies of 17 nations fought -- and won -- to preserve the
> freedom of the Republic of Korea. During the so-called "Forgotten War,"
> 54,246 Americans were killed. Total allied losses were 297,389 dead.
>
> The Chosin Reservoir (today called the "Changjin") is located in
> mountainous terrain that separates the middle of the northern portion of
> the Korean penninsula. By Thanksgiving 1950 Allied forces had driven
> north following MacArthur's successful landing at Inchon earlier and
> driven what remained of the North Korean Army almost across the Yalu
> River, the border separating Korea from Communist China's Manchurian
> province. MacArthur was forbidden to attack across the Yalu and, since
> there was virtually no where else to drive them, he allowed his troops
> to slow to consolidate their outrun supply lines, having taken almost
> all of Korea from the communists. A few 'volunteers' from China's armies
> had been detected among North Korea's communist forces but, in yet one
> more intelligence failure, it was calculated that China would not enter
> the war.
>
> Frozen turkeys were delivered to the troops on the line to celebrate
> Thanksgiving, and MacArthur confidentally predicted the "troops would be
> home for Christmas."
>
> Meanwhile, China massed its forces north of the Yalu. Chosin pitted
> about 15,000 allied ground troops, mostly the 1st Marine Division and
> Regimental Combat Teams from the Army's 7th Infantry Division, but also
> including elements of the South Korean (ROK) Army, British Marine
> Commandos and Royal Australian Air Force members, against 120,000
> Chinese infantrymen concealed in the mountains around the valley town of
> Yudam-ni. There were nearly 500,000 North Korean troops, mainly Chinese
> "volunteers," in ten Chinese Army Divisions, immediately across the Yalu
> River.
>
> Thanksgiving fell on Thursday, November 23, that year. The Marines who
> were advanced the furthest north, those dug in up around the reservoir
> got their airdrop of Turkeys a little late; and (as described in Pat
> Frank's _Hold Back the Night_), their cooks planned to serve them their
> dinner on Monday, November 27, after the turkeys which took three days
> to thaw had unfrozen. On November 27th, 1950, in the early A.M., the
> attack was made across the ice at the reservoir. The turkeys were never
> unfrozen and abandoned. The ten Chinese Divisions were ordered to
> annihilate the 1st Marine Division and allies to the last man. The
> 15,000 allies suffered 12,000 casualties, including more than 3,000
> killed and 6,000 wounded, plus thousands of severe frostbite cases from
> the -30 degree temperatures.
>
> They emerged from the ordeal with a Presidential Unit Citation for,
> "decisively defeating seven enemy divisions together with elements of
> three others." The Chinese suffered an estimated 37,500 casualties,
> including 25,000 killed and 12,500 wounded.
>
> Historians have termed Chosin the most savage battle of modern warfare.
> They compare it to Tarawa, the bloodiest battle of World War II in terms
> of the ratio of casualties to Americans engaged, also 15,000. Some 1,000
> were killed and 2,300 wounded in that fight. Of the Tawara's 5,000
> defenders, 4,500 died.
>
> President Reagan cited Chosin as among the epics of military history in
> his first Inaugural Address. Time Magazine described it as,
> "...unparalleled in U. S. military history ... an epic of great
> suffering and great valor." The press has likened it to the Alamo or
> Custer's Last Stand because of the seemingly hopeless odds. A total of
> 17 Medals of Honor and 70 Navy Crosses were awarded for the campaign,
> the most ever for a single battle in U. S. military history.
>
> There was a small Christmas miracle to compensate for loss of the frozen
> turkeys. The Chosin fighters, by decimating and checkmating the Chinese
> forces in the mountains, enabled the evacuation of 100,000 North Korean
> civilians, (men, women and children) by sea, the last on Christmas Eve.
> The U. S. Government formally described the humanitarian feat as "the
> greatest rescue operation in history of mankind." Never in recorded
> history have combatants rescued so many enemy civilians in the midst of
> battle. Those refugees who "voted their feet against communism" are now
> living free, many in the United States.
>
> A personal note: in November 1950 I was eight years old, living in
> Cleveland, Ohio. My mother's aunt and uncle, Earl and Elizabeth Hoyt,
> had a small twenty acre plot of land east of Cleveland in Gates Mills,
> Ohio, on which Earl bred and raised cocker spaniels for field and show.
> This was farmland, only recently subdivided, then. Today it's a very
> posh suburb of Cleveland. Down the road two mailboxes lived a family
> named Sears. The previous three years my sister and I had spent
> vacations with Bess and Earl. Albert Sears was a fifteen year old boy
> when we first met him; and, as Earl worked nights at the G.E. plant down
> the road and needed his sleep during the day, Bess asked Mrs. Sears if
> Albert could keep an eye on us during the summers. He did. He had a
> beautiful German Shepard named "Pal" with whom he let us play, took us
> berry picking, on hikes, to apple and pear orchards to picnic, and
> showed us his favorite spots. He was a kind, responsible kid, and the
> first older boy with whom I had ever experienced an enjoyable
> relationship. He told me about the Boy Scouts and encouraged my mother
> to think about letting me join the Cubs that year. He helped teach me
> how to take care of a puppy Earl gave me on my sixth birthday. Albert
> graduated high school in June 1950. A few days later, at night on the
> highway in front of his home, a driver ran over Pal. A week or so later,
> President Truman called for volunteers. Albert enlisted in the Marine
Corps.
>
> The winter of 1950 was an exceptionally heavy one in northern Ohio. We
> visited Aunt Bess and Uncle Earl at the beginning of the school vacation
> over Christmas and New Years. We got snowed in with drifts eight and ten
> feet high. Bess and Earl had a little 10 inch television. It was the
> only TV in that neighborhood along the highway. That Christmas vacation,
> every evening around five, Mrs. Sears tramped her way over to watch the
> television. The news reports were special that year. They showed reels
> and reels of movie footage of Marines and Army soldiers, refugees and
> others, walking into a place called Hungnam harbor. Mrs. Sears would sit
> quietly and closely peer at the TV at the faces of the men shown under
> the parka hoods and helmets, every evening. As it got closer and closer
> to the New Year, Mrs. Sears began to cry a lot while she watched. Bess
> would give her a glass with ice cubes and something mixed with soda pop
> to drink, but she'd continue crying. Sometimes Bess would tell Earl to
> take us out of the room.
>
> Pfc. Albert Sears, USMCR, has been missing in action (presumed dead) for
> forty-nine years.
>
> Every Thanksgiving I think about him. And every Thanksgiving since ten
> years after his death, I've drunk a toast of something mixed in ice with
> soda pop to his memory. And said a prayer for his soul.
>
> Happy Thanksgiving, Albert. God Bless you.
>
> David
>
> _____
> *In one of the few printing gaffes in a Heinlein book, the reservoir was
> initially called "Inchon" in the first few editions. Inchon, of course,
> is the harbor on the west coast of Korea near Seoul, the capital, where
> MacArthur had landed a flanking amphibious assault that bottled up and
> virtually destroyed the North Korean Army months earlier. The mistake
> was corrected in subsequent editions.
>
> --
> David M. Silver
> AGplusone@aol.com
> "I expect your names to shine!"
>
>
>
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21459
From: Geo Rule
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:54:11 -0700
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I've said before, I'll say again: treat people like pariahs, don't be
surprised when some of them act like pariahs. Not all, of course --I
know two pair of gay men couples who have been together for more than
ten years. I find it impossible to justify treating them like second
class citizens in this matter.
On Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:59:24 -0400, "noone" <no_one@home> wrote:
>this looks to me, like the former "equal rights amendment", like a bad idea
>whose time has not and should not come. it would not affect me, i'm
>heterosexual and married, but i have a number of friends involved in various
Geo Rule
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
****
Specializing in the Confederate Secret Service,
the Sultana, Gratiot St. Prison, Jesse James & Friends,
Copperheads, the Northwest Conspiracy, and the Damn Dutch
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21460
From: Geo Rule
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:56:39 -0700
Subject: Con Jose Heinlein Dinner
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb and I are now confirmed for the Heinlein dinner Friday night, and
the con on Saturday. Anyone else going and want to get together?
Geo Rule
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
****
Specializing in the Confederate Secret Service,
the Sultana, Gratiot St. Prison, Jesse James & Friends,
Copperheads, the Northwest Conspiracy, and the Damn Dutch
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21461
From: Geo Rule
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 21:08:30 -0700
Subject: 1776 DVD
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Yowsa, yowsa, yowsa. Big Charlie gave me a heads-up on Amazon now
offering a DVD of 1776. Not the original release, and not even the
laser disc release --this is the laser disc plus.
Digital audio has been remastered to 5.1, and sounds great. Much
(all?) of the material put back into the laser disc release is here,
but is much more seamless and much higher quality. "Cool, Considerate
Men" in particular looks much better. It is hard-to-impossible to spot
by the quality of footage where the additions have been made --you
need to know the movie to spot them (much fun!). The liner notes claim
that the producers spent 9 months digging thru Jack Warner's
collection to find every scrap of film.
There is of course the director's commentary, which is practically
required these days for a DVD. Also included are the screen tests for
most of the major parts.
Anamorphic wide-screen too, especially nice for those with wide-screen
TVs.
A very happy day.
Geo Rule
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
****
Specializing in the Confederate Secret Service,
the Sultana, Gratiot St. Prison, Jesse James & Friends,
Copperheads, the Northwest Conspiracy, and the Damn Dutch
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21462
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:03:05 -0700
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I personally like ~beating~ legalists over the head with Galatians 3. We
are only human after all. <g>
Back to Mary. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance lists seven different Marys.
How many there really were is unclear. I've read/heard convincing supported
arguments for combining or dividing them.
I have read and studied myths, beliefs, and religions since before I started
first grade. Growing up in the only mainstream protestant family in a
neighborhood populated by Roman Catholics in a town supported by a Seventh
Day Adventist College can do that. (There was a family of Jehovah's
Witnesses across the street.)
Plus I have a curious and trivial mind. I like to know how things are
connected and sometimes see connections others don't. (Now they call that
Chaos Theory!)
I'm almost ready to start off on a looooong tangent on change, drift,
exchange, and a bunch of other Psychoanthropological babbling so I better
quit.
--
Later,
`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"Eli Hestermann" <ehestermann@tmlp.com> wrote in message
news:3D2F49FF.E6965F7A@tmlp.com...
> I'm with you, rita. I've often said here that I don't have much use for
> people who try to enforce their religion through law.
>
> Just a couple weeks ago in Bible study, a man was wishing that the U.S.
> public were more "moral" - this while we were studying the section of II
> Corinthians where Paul says the law kills, while the Spirit gives life!
> I tried to be gentle while laying into him. [g]
>
> --
> Eli V. Hestermann
> ehestermann@tmlp.com
> "Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21463
From: Dee"
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 02:09:52 -0500
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Filksinger" <filksinger@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:3d2f398b.0@news.sff.net...
> As an aside, have you ever noticed how many people, Christian scholars
> included, assume that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, or at least the
same
> woman as in Luke 7:36-50?
Filksinger--
Another aside, how any wise men went to Bethlehem?
--Dee
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21464
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:22:51 -0700
Subject: Re: ranting and raving in Finley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
> actually i've found a use for those a.o.l. discs i keep getting in the
mail,
> they make excellent pistol targets.
> "gunner"
> ----------------
Put a few white paper towels under them and use them to show your husband
and children why you don'y put metal in the microwave. (15 seconds is
beyond sufficient) Without the paper towels they tend to stick and make a
big mess.
They also work great in the cherry tree for scaring off birds. (letting the
results of the above experiment cool before moving it still allows the CD to
be used for this purpose.)
Later,
`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
--
Later,
`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
"noone" <no_one@home> wrote in message news:3d2f8029.0@news.sff.net...
> actually i've found a use for those a.o.l. discs i keep getting in the
mail,
> they make excellent pistol targets.
> "gunner"
> ----------------
>
>
> "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:3d2c5228.0@news.sff.net...
> > 'rita,
> >
> > Good to hear _from_ you, bad to hear what is happening _to_ you. It
> doesn't
> > help that my problems are similar.
> >
> > Filksinger
> >
> > "Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> > news:3d2bcaa9.0@news.sff.net...
> > > Bill and the folks at the former Prodigy are definitely off my
Christmas
> > > list. If I could save money this HP poj would be running XP and be
> maxed
> > > out at 512 Mb RAM, but... I should of bought Win98 for this thing
when
> I
> > > got it instead of learning to live with WinMe.
> > >
> > > This new SBC Yahoo! that once was (and still answers to) Prodigy.net
has
> > > problems. Not the least of which is trying my patience. The silly
> dialer
> > > works fine if you don't mind manually telling it to connect everytime
> even
> > > when you click on an active desktop link or use "run" or click on a
link
> > in
> > > the "Favorites" folder. I'm used to hearing my modem dial out as soon
> as
> > I
> > > click on something or type a link in "run." This having to tell the
it
> > to
> > > connect is annoying. (So far three questions to various support
> locations
> > > have gone unanswered.)
> > >
> > > I liked Prodigy it was inexpensive, easy to navigate, and gave me
> choices
> > > about how much of its proprietary junk I had to use. This new
creature
> > > started off by replacing my browser with their own version that opened
a
> > new
> > > window every time you clicked a link, ignored POP-UP STOPPER, And
> > generally
> > > took over. Do I subscribe to AOL? (I told them several times in the
> > above
> > > mentioned semi-polite questions that I didn't and would not ever again
> > have
> > > AOL on any computer I owned by choice.)
> > >
> > > Any way the clincher today was when I finally got around to redoing
PGP.
> > > Apparently PGP 6.5.8 and my system are in no way compatible. I got
> error
> > > messages like I hadn't seen since the Tandy 386SX33 bit the big one.
> > > (uninstalling seems to have fixed it.) The fun part was that silly
> dialer
> > > would think it was disconnected, when the modem was happily doing its
> > thing
> > > tying up my phone line.
> > >
> > > I know how to fix most of this problem. $$$$$$ I refuse to "invest"
in
> > > Lotto tickets, Uncle Sam isn't handing out big raises for Veterans or
SS
> > > recipients, I haven't invented an Improvement to BC's voting machine,
> and
> > > any rich relatives are healthier than I am. (I'm already working more
> the
> > > docs let me.)
> > >
> > > Thanks for getting this far. It's been a fun month and this was a
> topper.
> > > Skye was in the hospital for 3 days June 11- 14, Russ and I booted our
> > > roommate, I've been not just sick but very sick for the last 10 days.
> On
> > > the good side, Erin went back to work, Aaron's sister married the
nicest
> > nut
> > > case (he'll fit right into the family,) Athena got her student
teaching
> > > assignment in Pasco, A&A should know whether they got their house by
> this
> > > weekend (move in date is July 29) the lender has been dragging the
> > paperwork
> > > out.
> > >
> > > But I'm F.I.N.E.*
> > >
> > > --
> > > Later,
> > >
> > > `rita
> > > http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
> > > *frustrated, insecure, neurotic, emotional
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21465
From: Eli Hestermann
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 06:11:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Dee wrote:
> Filksinger--
> Another aside, how any wise men went to Bethlehem?
Reminds me of the Far Side: "More like three wiseguys, I'd say." [g]
The whole Christmas tradition is likely full of falsehoods. Harry Wendt has
a four-week study examining them.
What year was Jesus born? What time of year?
Where (i.e. a stable, a cave) was he born?
--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@tmlp.com
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21466
From: Eli Hestermann
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 06:21:02 -0400
Subject: Rush
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I know we have a couple other Rush fans here. I went to the show last
night outside of Boston with a Canadian friend of mine and his brother
(who'd driven down from Montreal - Toronto is the only Canadian city
they're playing on this leg of the tour). It was simply incredible. If
you don't mind knowing ahead of time, I suggest checking out a fan site
for the set list. If you want a surprise, I'll just say that my
friend's brother had been to 7 other Rush concerts, and this was the
first time he'd heard them do some of the material live. When they
*open* with "Tom Sawyer" you know it's going to be something different.
Oh, and even if you do check out the set list, expect surprises. I
caught at least four changes from the lists at previous venues - sounds
like they're mixing it up each night.
Today I'm off to my first ever con - Readercon in Burlington, MA. I'll
sleep next week.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@tmlp.com
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21467
From: hf_jai@prodigy.net (Jai Johnson-Pickett)
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 13:51:59 GMT
Subject: Re: ranting and raving in Finley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sat, 13 Jul 2002 00:22:51 -0700, "Lorrita Morgan"
<lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote:
>Put a few white paper towels under them and use them to show your husband
>and children why you don'y put metal in the microwave. <snip>
>
>They also work great in the cherry tree for scaring off birds....
A friend of mine who used to manage an Egghead's software store
(before they went TU) gave a bunch of useless disks to his daughter
who made a quite lovely menorah out of them (shiny sides out) for the
temple's annual "Build a Menorah" contest. She won a $1K scholarship
to summer camp.
I would imagine someone far more creative than I could make some other
holiday doodad. They really do catch the light nicely.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21468
From: Bill Dauphin
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 12:03:04 -0400
Subject: Re: ranting and raving in Finley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On 7/13/02 9:51 AM, in article 3d302f66.10759706@news.sff.net, "Jai
Johnson-Pickett" <hf_jai@prodigy.net> wrote:
> I would imagine someone far more creative than I could make some other
> holiday doodad. They really do catch the light nicely.
Not a holiday doodad, but my dad did make a pretty cool 2-story high hanging
mobile out of unwanted and outdated CDs (not all AOL discs, but they were
well represented, of course). It hung in his den/computer room and caught
the morning light through a side window. The whole thing started out as a
lark, but he eventually got invited to hang it in a local art show.
-JovBill
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21469
From: Michael P. Calligaro"
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:59:42 -0700
Subject: Re: Rush
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Thanks Eli. I've got tickets for a September show out here, but I've been
so disappointed with the new album that I've been starting to worry about
the upcoming show. It's cool to hear that it's going to be a good one.
bytor
"Eli Hestermann" <ehestermann@tmlp.com> wrote in message
news:3D2FFF0E.7C51FF02@tmlp.com...
> I know we have a couple other Rush fans here. I went to the show last
> night ... It was simply incredible.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21470
From: TreetopAngel"
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 16:35:53 -0600
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"David Silver" suggests:
> Deb Houdek Rule replied to me:
>
> > The only Pat Frank I've read was "Alas Babylon" and I almost put it
> > on the list.
>
>
> If you find a copy, try his "Hold Back the Night," a novel of what
> Evelyn Cyril called (after the typo about Inchon was corrected) "the
> long walk back from the Chosin Reservoir" that his daddy made.
Based on other suggestions for reading material made by David I went on a
quest for "Hold Back the Night." It is out of print. I finally found a
number of used copies for sale at Amazon.com, ranging in price from $2-$8
U.S. Now I am waiting for it to arrive. I enjoyed "Alas, Babylon" and
fully expect to enjoy this one. Thanks, David...without your suggestion I
would not of known of it's existence.
Elizabeth
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21471
From: JT@REM0VE.sff.net (JT)
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 01:54:42 GMT
Subject: Re: Rush
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
On Sat, 13 Jul 2002 06:21:02 -0400, Eli Hestermann
<ehestermann@tmlp.com> wrote:
>I know we have a couple other Rush fans here. \
Concerts? I remember those...but you have to stay up past 10 p.m. to
go to one. ;) We passed up seeing McCartney last month, and I know
I'll regret that some day.
Only saw Rush once, on the "Hold Your Fire" tour, I think. They truly
were the only band live that sounded exactly like the albums. Or are
they not aiming for that any more?
JT
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21472
From: Ed Johnson
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 23:50:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Dee: I like what you said and how you said it.
Manuel Garcia O'Kelly would approve. ;-)
Ed J
On Thu, 11 Jul 2002 23:04:23 -0500, "Dee"
<ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org> wrote:
>'Rita--
> That's why I agree with Bill on this one--if we drop the loaded
>terminology of "marriage," then it quits being your moral problem what I do.
>Or mine what you do. If we looked on it as contractual families, we weould
>maybe see that it is a question of assuming mutual obligations and sharing
>responsibilities. Sex, or the lack thereof, is no one's business.
> For instance, what if my best friend and I both had children and were
>both widowed. We might decide to create a household and raise our children
>together, for our mutual benefit and teh welfare of teh children. What
>would our sex-life have to do with that? Why should we not be able to make
>the same provisions for our family as the traditional husband, wife and 2.8
>children family? Insurance, taxes, etc. The business of a family goes on,
>with or without a marriage.
> But as long as we only think in terms of marriage, we will be emoting
>over other people's morality instead of thinking about realistic choices.
> Of course, if there were not so many people who think that "anything not
>prohibited is encouraged," this wouldn't push so many hot buttons, either.
>It seems to me that real Christians persuade, through example, of the
>rightness of their beliefs, rather than trying to punish what offends their
>sensibilities.
>
>--Dee
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21473
From: Eli Hestermann
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 13:29:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Rush
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
That's funny. Most of the people who haven't liked their most recent stuff
like the back-to-basics approach (read "no keyboards") of Vapor Trails. I've
found I like the odd numbered tracks on the album.
"Michael P. Calligaro" wrote:
> Thanks Eli. I've got tickets for a September show out here, but I've been
> so disappointed with the new album that I've been starting to worry about
> the upcoming show. It's cool to hear that it's going to be a good one.
>
> bytor
>
> "Eli Hestermann" <ehestermann@tmlp.com> wrote in message
> news:3D2FFF0E.7C51FF02@tmlp.com...
> > I know we have a couple other Rush fans here. I went to the show last
> > night ... It was simply incredible.
--
Eli V. Hestermann
ehestermann@tmlp.com
"Vita brevis est, ars longa" - Seneca
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21474
From: Kristina Forsyth"
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 20:00:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I forgot that the Dick Butkis character was gay. The judge was played by
the same woman who played Fish's wife on Barney Miller - or maybe in Fish's
spin-off.
T
"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:3d2edf52.0@news.sff.net...
> That was the assumption then. I didn't watch it much. I'm not sure if
> that's the show Dick Butkus played the gay bartender on or not. I think
it
> was. (trivial mind at work)
>
> I can't remember the name of the actress who played the judge, but she
made
> a career out of playing acerbic, wise women.
>
> --
> Later,
>
> `rita
> http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
> "Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org> wrote in message
> news:3d2ebeb9.0@news.sff.net...
> >
> > "Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
> > news:3d2eaaca.0@news.sff.net...
> > > Dee,
> > > I think we said/meant the same thing.
> >
> > Yeah, I think so too.
> >
> > > When I hear about these movements to regulate behavior and/or further
> > narrow
> > > the definition of "family" sitcoms like "Kate and Allie," "My Two
Dads"
> > and
> > > "Full House" spring to mind. I think all of them covered some of the
> > points
> > > raised.
> >
> > The only one of those I ever watched was "Kate & Allie." But come
to
> > think of it, if a new sit-com with the title "My Two Dads" were
announced
> > today, how many howls of outrage would we hear, based on the
_assumption_
> > that it was about a gay couple with children?
> >
> > --Dee
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21475
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:29:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org> wrote in message
news:3d2fd236.0@news.sff.net...
>
> "Filksinger" <filksinger@earthlink.net> wrote in message
> news:3d2f398b.0@news.sff.net...
> > As an aside, have you ever noticed how many people, Christian scholars
> > included, assume that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute, or at least the
> same
> > woman as in Luke 7:36-50?
>
> Filksinger--
> Another aside, how any wise men went to Bethlehem?
Oh wait, I know this one! No, that's Popes in a Volkswagen.
Sorry.
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21476
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:32:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Con Jose Heinlein Dinner
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Geo Rule" <georule@civilwarstlouis.com> wrote in message
news:d59viugep7fethuis5521btttrg59jjc96@4ax.com...
> Deb and I are now confirmed for the Heinlein dinner Friday night, and
> the con on Saturday. Anyone else going and want to get together?
>
> Geo Rule
>
Woo Hoo! See you there. I'm arriving Wednesday the 28th, leaving the
following Wednesday the 4th. Look me up at the Fairmont.
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21477
From: William J. Keaton"
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:35:09 -0400
Subject: Re: 1776 DVD
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Geo Rule" <georule@civilwarstlouis.com> wrote in message
news:0e9viucp5mt073fcqtfb1jngvek3fjrbld@4ax.com...
> Yowsa, yowsa, yowsa. Big Charlie gave me a heads-up on Amazon now
> offering a DVD of 1776. Not the original release, and not even the
> laser disc release --this is the laser disc plus.
>
Yeah! It's out! And is currently #24 on Amazon!
WJaKe
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21478
From: Dee"
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:01:07 -0500
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
"Ed Johnson" <eljohn2@comcast.spamthis.net > wrote in message
news:i5t1juksjs69gvasjo7f07fcsjs027ae93@4ax.com...
> Dee: I like what you said and how you said it.
> Manuel Garcia O'Kelly would approve. ;-)
Thank you, sir. I like to think that the Long families would understand
my point, too, even though they were hardly a sexless bunch. <g>
--Dee
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21479
From: Ed Johnson
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 22:55:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Federal Marriage Amendment
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
T: I think the actress who played "Bernice" opposite Abe Vigoda
(Fish) was the same person who was on Barney Miller before the
spin-off. I don't recall her other rolls. (can't remember the
Actress' name, though).
Ed J
On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 20:00:53 -0400, "Kristina Forsyth" <kgf@sff.net>
wrote:
>I forgot that the Dick Butkis character was gay. The judge was played by
>the same woman who played Fish's wife on Barney Miller - or maybe in Fish's
>spin-off.
>
>T
>
>"Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>news:3d2edf52.0@news.sff.net...
>> That was the assumption then. I didn't watch it much. I'm not sure if
>> that's the show Dick Butkus played the gay bartender on or not. I think
>it
>> was. (trivial mind at work)
>>
>> I can't remember the name of the actress who played the judge, but she
>made
>> a career out of playing acerbic, wise women.
>>
>> --
>> Later,
>>
>> `rita
>> http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
>> "Dee" <ke4lfgDELETETHIS@amsat.org> wrote in message
>> news:3d2ebeb9.0@news.sff.net...
>> >
>> > "Lorrita Morgan" <lorrita-m@prodigy.net> wrote in message
>> > news:3d2eaaca.0@news.sff.net...
>> > > Dee,
>> > > I think we said/meant the same thing.
>> >
>> > Yeah, I think so too.
>> >
>> > > When I hear about these movements to regulate behavior and/or further
>> > narrow
>> > > the definition of "family" sitcoms like "Kate and Allie," "My Two
>Dads"
>> > and
>> > > "Full House" spring to mind. I think all of them covered some of the
>> > points
>> > > raised.
>> >
>> > The only one of those I ever watched was "Kate & Allie." But come
>to
>> > think of it, if a new sit-com with the title "My Two Dads" were
>announced
>> > today, how many howls of outrage would we hear, based on the
>_assumption_
>> > that it was about a gay couple with children?
>> >
>> > --Dee
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21480
From: Ed Johnson
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 23:06:46 -0400
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Deb: I have a series of authors who I liked a lot, just not quite
as much as I enjoyed Heinlein.
(However, it is possible to like RAH and Not like other SF authors
at all! My wife liked Herbert's Dune series of books; the selected
Heinlein novels that I asked her to read over the years; and darn
little else in the way of hard core Science Fiction from my
collection.)
I enjoyed Keith Laumer, E.E. Doc Smith, Van Vogt, almost as much
as RAH. I'd have to give some thought to individual works that I
would list under "If You Like RAH, You'll Like..." books...
Ed J
On Sat, 06 Jul 2002 20:44:35 GMT, debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek
Rule) wrote:
>
> My picks for "If You Like RAH, You'll Like..." books...
>
> 1. Little Fuzzy by Piper
> 2. Oath of Fealty by Niven
> 3. Rite of Passage by Panshin
> 4. Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy by Adams
> 5. Holidays in Hell by O'Roarke (non-fiction)
>
>
>Deb (D.A. Houdek)
>http://www.dahoudek.com
>http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21481
From: Lorrita Morgan"
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 03:20:17 -0700
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
One of my guilty pleasures is The Stainless Steel Rat series by Harry
Harrison. After reading a couple on fly this past week, I think W. W. Smith
and Jim DiGriz could be buddies. (Harrison's other stuff ain't bad either.
MAKE ROOM, MAKE ROOM is a classic most of you will recognize.)
--
Later,
`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21482
From: debrule@dahoudek.com (Deb Houdek Rule)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:38:13 GMT
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
>(However, it is possible to like RAH and Not like other SF authors
>at all! My wife liked Herbert's Dune series of books
I just reread a part of the Dune series. First book, as ever,
splendid. An ever-growing sense of dismay as I read the others. I got
to book 5 "Heretics of Dune" and read the first paragraph and just
couldn't go on. I _know_ I've read it before but absolutely no memory
comes up of what it was about. "Chapterhouse Dune", OTOH, I recall
thinking went a long ways toward recapturing the flavor of the first
book. Haven't touched the new one.
I don't see Dune as very Heinleinish... but there is that scene of
the Fremen spice-liquor orgy... hmmm... how would Lazarus Long react?
Orgy--good. Never-washed people--bad ;-)
Deb (D.A. Houdek)
http://www.dahoudek.com
http://www.civilwarstlouis.com
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21483
From: georule@civilwarstlouis.com
Date: 15 Jul 2002 21:33:05 GMT
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
'rita--
For 7 years I've been trying to get my wife --who is a film school grad
and Viking scholar-- to read Harrison's "The Technicolor Time Machine" and
she just won't do it. Shameful. Some day she will and release I'm as right
about that as I was "Little Fuzzy" (I understand on that last --terrible
fantasy-like name for a hard-as-nails SF novel and one of the all time classics)
Best. Geo
++++
One of my guilty pleasures is The Stainless Steel Rat series by Harry
Harrison. After reading a couple on fly this past week, I think W. W. Smith
and Jim DiGriz could be buddies. (Harrison's other stuff ain't bad either.
MAKE ROOM, MAKE ROOM is a classic most of you will recognize.)
--
Later,
`rita
http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21484
From: Michael P. Calligaro"
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:16:29 -0700
Subject: Re: If You Like RAH, You'll Like...
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
That's interesting. I have pretty much the same memories of the Dune books.
First was great, and they generally became less and less memorable until
Chapterhouse. I also, for the life of me, can't remember a single thing
about the fifth book.
bytor
"Deb Houdek Rule" <debrule@dahoudek.com> wrote in message
news:3d33310c.3100822@NEWS.SFF.NET...
> I just reread a part of the Dune series. First book, as ever,
> splendid. An ever-growing sense of dismay as I read the others. I got
> to book 5 "Heretics of Dune" and read the first paragraph and just
> couldn't go on. I _know_ I've read it before but absolutely no memory
> comes up of what it was about. "Chapterhouse Dune", OTOH, I recall
> thinking went a long ways toward recapturing the flavor of the first
> book. Haven't touched the new one.
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21485
From: RPostelnek"
Date: Sun, 14 Jul 2002 22:19:11 -0500
Subject: Re: ranting and raving in Finley
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
I don't like the new SBC Yahoo either. It is slower loading than Prodigy
was. And it makes it more difficult to do things. I have about 5 more
discount months and then I may switch. I suppose Prodigy got bought by SBC
Yahoo. They seem to have a bunch of different systems as I recall from
when I was loading the new disk.
Rosie
> I liked Prodigy it was inexpensive, easy to navigate, and gave me choices
> about how much of its proprietary junk I had to use. This new creature
> started off by replacing my browser with their own version that opened a
new
> window every time you clicked a link, ignored POP-UP STOPPER, And
generally
> took over. Do I subscribe to AOL? (I told them several times in the
above
> mentioned semi-polite questions that I didn't and would not ever again
have
> AOL on any computer I owned by choice.)
>
>
>
> --
> Later,
>
> `rita
> http://pages.prodigy.net/lorrita-m/index.html
> *frustrated, insecure, neurotic, emotional
>
>
------------------------------------------------------------
Article 21486
From: Geo Rule
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 20:50:13 -0700
Subject: Re: Con Jose Heinlein Dinner
Newsgroups: sff.discuss.heinlein-forum
Going to the THS dinner? Should be fun.
On Sun, 14 Jul 2002 21:32:46 -0400, "William J. Keaton"
<wjake@prodigy.net> wrote:
>
>"Geo Rule" <georule@civilwarstlouis.com> wrote in message
>news:d59viugep7fethuis5521btttrg59jjc96@4ax.com...
>> Deb and I are now confirmed for the Heinlein dinner Friday night, and
>> the con on Saturday. Anyone else going and want to get together?
>>
>> Geo Rule
>>
>Woo Hoo! See you there. I'm arriving Wednesday the 28th, leaving the
>following Wednesday the 4th. Look me up at the Fairmont.
>
>WJaKe
>
Geo Rule
www.civilwarstlouis.com
****
Specializing in the Confederate Secret Service,
the Sultana, Gratiot St. Prison,
Jesse James & Friends, Copperheads,
the Northwest Conspiracy, and the Damn Dutch.
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